outside the skulker feat depending on how you interpret does not reveal your location, yeah attacks reveal you.
Technically, Grappling will not break Invisibility since it doesn't involve an attack roll, deal damage and is not a spell.
lol, i did not think about that one. I'm actually okay with it, and I think they should add some ability to silence people that you grapple. Yanking a straggler off into the shadows with you kind of fits some of the stories people try to replicate when playing the game.
Disagree. A perceptible hostile act starts combat. If the attack itself is imperceptible, it's the result of the attack which starts combat.
Given that attacking automatically reveals you, there is no such thing as an imperceptible attack in 5e.
Attacking sometimes reveals you after the attack, not before.
Hidden says you lose invisibility when you make an attack roll. Not when you declare an attack. (And once you make the attack roll, you immediately resolve the hit or miss and any damage, and the attack is over). So the attack itself is imperceptible until it connects or misses.
The invisibility spell ends after you make an attack roll.
Greater Invisibility doesn't even end with an attack roll. Someone with Greater Invis could attack and still not be seen. (But at least on the hit, there would be perceptible evidence that combat has started - the injury of the attacked victim).
Attacking sometimes reveals you after the attack, not before.
The timing is not specified, and in any case, while I don't particularly like the surprise rules in 5e, it's pretty clear that the intended behavior of attacking while invisible is "you roll initiative and combat starts; you have advantage on that roll".
Attacking sometimes reveals you after the attack, not before.
The timing is not specified, and in any case, while I don't particularly like the surprise rules in 5e, it's pretty clear that the intended behavior of attacking while invisible is "you roll initiative and combat starts; you have advantage on that roll".
Is it? I'm not convinced. If it is, that intention is stupid and should be ignored. I don't think even the old SAC for the 2014 rules actually thought about invisible attackers or subtle spell-casting, or even spell-casting that wasn't going to result in hostile action.
The rule as you've interpreted it describes the 'I draw my dagger during the masquerade ball' scenario okay. That's... a minority scenario type for surprise. But that's literally the only type of example we have, as far as I'm aware. That and 'the sorceror suddenly starts casting a spell because he thinks the NPC is a changeling', which is the same sort of scenario. Both of these involve visible actions taken suddenly. And frankly, the sorceror suddenly starts casting scenario is just obviously wrong, because then you can never cast Friends usefully, and can't really make use of Charm Person or similar spells either. Both those spells (and others like them) clearly contemplate situations where you can cast them without combat starting.
There has been no SAC which deals with completely unaware creatures and combat starting. There is only a single SAC 2024 on surprise, and it deals with the Rogue's evasion feature (with the predictable answer, because its obvious). It does not deal with when you roll initiative or when combat starts. Surprise has changed enough that the 2014 answers are inapplicable (it's almost entirely about how creatures can't take actions on their first turn).
As such, I disagree with what you think their intention is, because they never seem to have ever dealt with an apropos example. Strange, but apparently true.
And I don't think any reasonable intention can be had that combat is starting when one side is completely oblivious to the enemy or to any hostile action. (And after all, the rule says "is surprised by combat starting", not "will be surprised by combat starting". While the surprise is present tense, 'starting' is the present participle, which, with 'combat starting' as the object of 'by', is what caused the surprise. Note the past tense. Combat starting has already happened when you determine surprise and roll for initiative according to the grammar used. Consider a similar construction like "I am surprised by people running" - I've already witnessed the people running when I am surprised. It's not that i will be surprised when I see people running, it's that I'm currently surprised because I have seen people running. The surprise is current, the instigating event is already past.)
I should probably note that, in the case of an invisible attacker starting combat, if the attack causes them to lose invisibility, they are not invisible when they roll for initiative. (Because the attack has happened, and thus their invisibility has ended).
outside the skulker feat depending on how you interpret does not reveal your location, yeah attacks reveal you.
Technically, Grappling will not break Invisibility since it doesn't involve an attack roll, deal damage and is not a spell.
You have to roll to hit in order to grapple.
There are three options for Unarmed Strike: Damage, Grapple and Shove. Only Damage requires a hit roll. The others do not - they have a Str/Dex save instead.
This is correct: Grappling actually does not break the Invisibility spell because you're not doing the things it says break it. That said:
The target will 100% know you're there, there's no way you can NOT be known to be there after that unless you Hide after and break away. Even if you do, they know you're around.
It's a strange interaction that it doesn't break Invisibility, since it's still an attack (but isn't an attack roll) due to the text of Unarmed Strike being more specific than "attack roll = attack".
If you grapple or shove an enemy, does that end a Sanctuary spell cast on you?
No. The Sanctuary spell ends only if the warded creature makes an attack roll, casts a spell, or deals damage. The Grapple and Shove options of an Unarmed Strike do none of these things.
The 5E Surprise rules never change since 2014, they never received any errata or anything.
Incorrect.
From 2014 rule on Surprise:
If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn o f the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends. A m ember o f a group can be surprised even if the other members aren’t.
What's incorrect? It's exactly the rules published in 2014 that never received an errata. They were revised in 2024 core rules revision.
The first step of any combat is this: the DM determines whether anyone in the combat is surprised (reread “Combat Step by Step” in the Player’s Handbook). This determination happens only once during a fight and only at the beginning. In other words, once a fight starts, you can’t be surprised again, although a hidden foe can still gain the normal benefits from being unseen (see “Unseen Attackers and Targets” in the Player’s Handbook).
To be surprised, you must be caught off guard, usually because you failed to notice foes being stealthy or you were startled by an enemy with a special ability, such as the gelatinous cube’s Transparent trait, that makes it exceptionally surprising. You can be surprised even if your companions aren’t, and you aren’t surprised if even one of your foes fails to catch you unawares.
If anyone is surprised, no actions are taken yet. First, initiative is rolled as normal. Then, the first round of combat starts, and the unsurprised combatants act in initiative order. A surprised creature can’t move or take an action or a reaction until its first turn ends (remember that being unable to take an action also means you can’t take a bonus action). In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight. Once that turn ends, the creature is no longer surprised.
In short, activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative, whether or not someone is surprised, and after the first round of combat has passed, surprise is no longer a factor. You can still try to hide from your foes and gain the benefits conferred by being hidden, but you don’t deprive your foes of their turns when you do so.
The timing is not specified, and in any case, while I don't particularly like the surprise rules in 5e, it's pretty clear that the intended behavior of attacking while invisible is "you roll initiative and combat starts; you have advantage on that roll".
And I don't think any reasonable intention can be had that combat is starting when one side is completely oblivious to the enemy or to any hostile action.
"Combat" is the set of rules that D&D uses to adjudicate what happens when creatures attack other creatures. To say that combat doesn't start until after an attack has happened, is... certainly an opinion. But there's certainly no mandate that any of the creatures have to be aware -- it's entirely possible to run a combat where only one of the creatures involved is ever aware there's a fight going on. "Starting combat" is just engaging the combat rules, no more, no less. And step one in 5e is rolling initiative.
The 5E Surprise rules never change since 2014, they never received any errata or anything.
Really? So surprised creatures must still take no actions on their first turn, and can't use a reaction before their first turn?
5E14 Yes .... 5E24 No.
I posted this in response to your post below referring to 2019, which was 5E14. Of course they were revised in 5E24. If you didn't refer to it sorry for confusion then.
If you grapple or shove an enemy, does that end a Sanctuary spell cast on you?
No. The Sanctuary spell ends only if the warded creature makes an attack roll, casts a spell, or deals damage. The Grapple and Shove options of an Unarmed Strike do none of these things.
The 5E Surprise rules never change since 2014, they never received any errata or anything.
Really? So surprised creatures must still take no actions on their first turn, and can't use a reaction before their first turn?
5E14 Yes .... 5E24 No.
I posted this in response to your post below referring to 2019, which was 5E14. Of course they were revised in 5E24. If you didn't refer to it sorry for confusion then.
Back in 2019 way before the surprise rules changed (and thus the intention changed).
And my point was your reference was inapplicable to the current rules, because it was way before the rules change, and so had no bearing on the intentions of the 2024 rules (which were obviously totally different).
Is it? I'm not convinced. If it is, that intention is stupid and should be ignored.
I find the 2024 surprise rules to be clunky and produce counterintuitive results, but as far as I can tell the key motivation for making the change was to make sure that you couldn't have one side act twice before the other side acted at all, because that was way too powerful at the pace of 5e combat. That means you also can't have combat actions occur outside of combat.
The timing is not specified, and in any case, while I don't particularly like the surprise rules in 5e, it's pretty clear that the intended behavior of attacking while invisible is "you roll initiative and combat starts; you have advantage on that roll".
And I don't think any reasonable intention can be had that combat is starting when one side is completely oblivious to the enemy or to any hostile action.
"Combat" is the set of rules that D&D uses to adjudicate what happens when creatures attack other creatures. To say that combat doesn't start until after an attack has happened, is... certainly an opinion. But there's certainly no mandate that any of the creatures have to be aware -- it's entirely possible to run a combat where only one of the creatures involved is ever aware there's a fight going on. "Starting combat" is just engaging the combat rules, no more, no less. And step one in 5e is rolling initiative.
Well, if you roll initiative and the outcome leads to the stealthy would-be attacker just deciding to leave, no creatures have attacked other creatures, so combat never happened. So why did we roll surprise?
I disagree on a fundamental level. Combat is when two or more groups engage in hostile actions against each other. Combat only starts at the moment when all participants become aware there are hostiles. The rules for combat are a formalization to represent that conflict. They don't define combat, they simulate combat.
I start casting a spell - no one knows what it is yet. (If you take a reaction to make an Arcana check, you can't do anything else until the spell has resolved anyway). It could be prestidigitation. It could be charm person. It could be fireball. No one can (usefully) know which until i finish and the spell resolves. If the mere fact of my spellcasting is enough to make you hostile, you might draw your sword. Now combat starts - drawing your sword is an overtly hostile act that everyone is aware of, and my spell will resolve during combat. If no one takes a hostile action, my spell goes off: it's firebolt at the door. If you object to me burning down the door, now you might draw your sword and initiate combat (= we roll initiative), but the spell has already resolved, and it was an attack against the door that happened before combat. If I expected you to be upset by the door burning, I'm not surprised. If I didn't, I'm surprised, even though I literally just made an attack. But my spell could have been a fireball that just fried all your guards - it would still resolve before combat starts unless someone takes a hostile action that starts combat first.
If I start casting a spell and you counterspell it, arguably, we aren't even in combat yet. There's still an opportunity to talk it out.
(The only times intention matters for combat starting are (1) the other side makes a successful insight check against your deception and understands your action to be hostile, or (2) both sides are taking ambiguous actions that could be hostile, such as wizards on both sides casting spells, at which point if either is actually hostile, you should roll initiative. Obviously intentions matter for whether you're surprised someone has taken a hostile action).
The best way to think about initiative is you roll it when sequencing matters, and not just for combat. In the case of a surprise attack spell or an unnoticed invisible assassin, sequencing doesn't matter until after the spell resolves or after the assassin strikes.
The first step of any combat is this: the DM determines whether anyone in the combat is surprised (reread “Combat Step by Step” in the Player’s Handbook). This determination happens only once during a fight and only at the beginning. In other words, once a fight starts, you can’t be surprised again, although a hidden foe can still gain the normal benefits from being unseen (see “Unseen Attackers and Targets” in the Player’s Handbook).
To be surprised, you must be caught off guard, usually because you failed to notice foes being stealthy or you were startled by an enemy with a special ability, such as the gelatinous cube’s Transparent trait, that makes it exceptionally surprising. You can be surprised even if your companions aren’t, and you aren’t surprised if even one of your foes fails to catch you unawares.
If anyone is surprised, no actions are taken yet. First, initiative is rolled as normal. Then, the first round of combat starts, and the unsurprised combatants act in initiative order. A surprised creature can’t move or take an action or a reaction until its first turn ends (remember that being unable to take an action also means you can’t take a bonus action). In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight. Once that turn ends, the creature is no longer surprised.
In short, activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative, whether or not someone is surprised, and after the first round of combat has passed, surprise is no longer a factor. You can still try to hide from your foes and gain the benefits conferred by being hidden, but you don’t deprive your foes of their turns when you do so.
Which is from 2019 with totally different surprise rules, and so completely inapplicable. Can you cite the SAC or designers for 2024? No.
Is it? I'm not convinced. If it is, that intention is stupid and should be ignored.
I find the 2024 surprise rules to be clunky and produce counterintuitive results, but as far as I can tell the key motivation for making the change was to make sure that you couldn't have one side act twice before the other side acted at all, because that was way too powerful at the pace of 5e combat. That means you also can't have combat actions occur outside of combat.
Eh, my interpretation allows one creature one attack plus maybe their first combat turn before the other side has acted, which is less than acting twice at most levels, and doesn't involve their whole side double-acting at all.
Also, I think the intention is stupid. Surprise should be devastating. PCs should endeavour to avoid being surprised and to surprise the enemy. I don't understand the 'way too powerful'. If the encounter used any limited resources, it's done its job. The goal of encounters is to eat up limited daily resources. The goal of the PCs is to use as few limited daily resources as reasonably possible each encounter, and how effectively they do that is related to how clever and skillful they are. The way CRs are scaled in 5e, nothing the rules contemplate a party facing is a real threat to the party. (I think CR is benchmarked at too easy a level. Parties that are doing a poor job managing their limited resources should risk a TPK in a typical adventuring day).
And it makes a hash of other rules. When you cast a spell, what spell you're casting can't be the basis of deciding combat starts, because other characters don't know what you're casting. So either Friends doesn't work at all, and Charm Person always grants advantage on the save, OR the spell resolves first and if it starts combat, combat starts after the spell. (You can obviously cast spells out of combat, after all).
And if you have to wait for a spell to resolve to decide if combat has started, then you should similarly have to wait until the invisible assassin has already struck for combat to start, for the same exact reason. (No one knows what's going on until the blade is in your back).
At which point, I don't care what their intention was. I care about everything working in a consistent way.
Further, the grammar of the surprise rules supports combat having already started when you're surprised, which may just be the appearance of obvious hostiles, but it must be something which started combat that has already caused you to be surprised. Your surprise is present tense, caused by something you've already experienced.
If we did things the way you seem to be suggesting, someone with the Alert feat and stealth could literally just blunder through the dungeon and not care about the party being surprised, because chances are they're invisible when combat starts (so advantage cancels disadvantage from surprise) and have a big enough initiative modifier that they probably still go first.
Which is from 2019 with totally different surprise rules, and so completely inapplicable. Can you cite the SAC or designers for 2024? No.
No SAC required now that the surprised rules were revised. The ability to attack before combat Initiative has never been part of 5E core rules so the 5E24 revision didn't add or modify it.
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lol, i did not think about that one. I'm actually okay with it, and I think they should add some ability to silence people that you grapple. Yanking a straggler off into the shadows with you kind of fits some of the stories people try to replicate when playing the game.
Attacking sometimes reveals you after the attack, not before.
Hidden says you lose invisibility when you make an attack roll. Not when you declare an attack. (And once you make the attack roll, you immediately resolve the hit or miss and any damage, and the attack is over). So the attack itself is imperceptible until it connects or misses.
The invisibility spell ends after you make an attack roll.
Greater Invisibility doesn't even end with an attack roll. Someone with Greater Invis could attack and still not be seen. (But at least on the hit, there would be perceptible evidence that combat has started - the injury of the attacked victim).
The timing is not specified, and in any case, while I don't particularly like the surprise rules in 5e, it's pretty clear that the intended behavior of attacking while invisible is "you roll initiative and combat starts; you have advantage on that roll".
Is it? I'm not convinced. If it is, that intention is stupid and should be ignored. I don't think even the old SAC for the 2014 rules actually thought about invisible attackers or subtle spell-casting, or even spell-casting that wasn't going to result in hostile action.
The rule as you've interpreted it describes the 'I draw my dagger during the masquerade ball' scenario okay. That's... a minority scenario type for surprise. But that's literally the only type of example we have, as far as I'm aware. That and 'the sorceror suddenly starts casting a spell because he thinks the NPC is a changeling', which is the same sort of scenario. Both of these involve visible actions taken suddenly. And frankly, the sorceror suddenly starts casting scenario is just obviously wrong, because then you can never cast Friends usefully, and can't really make use of Charm Person or similar spells either. Both those spells (and others like them) clearly contemplate situations where you can cast them without combat starting.
There has been no SAC which deals with completely unaware creatures and combat starting. There is only a single SAC 2024 on surprise, and it deals with the Rogue's evasion feature (with the predictable answer, because its obvious). It does not deal with when you roll initiative or when combat starts. Surprise has changed enough that the 2014 answers are inapplicable (it's almost entirely about how creatures can't take actions on their first turn).
As such, I disagree with what you think their intention is, because they never seem to have ever dealt with an apropos example. Strange, but apparently true.
And I don't think any reasonable intention can be had that combat is starting when one side is completely oblivious to the enemy or to any hostile action. (And after all, the rule says "is surprised by combat starting", not "will be surprised by combat starting". While the surprise is present tense, 'starting' is the present participle, which, with 'combat starting' as the object of 'by', is what caused the surprise. Note the past tense. Combat starting has already happened when you determine surprise and roll for initiative according to the grammar used. Consider a similar construction like "I am surprised by people running" - I've already witnessed the people running when I am surprised. It's not that i will be surprised when I see people running, it's that I'm currently surprised because I have seen people running. The surprise is current, the instigating event is already past.)
I should probably note that, in the case of an invisible attacker starting combat, if the attack causes them to lose invisibility, they are not invisible when they roll for initiative. (Because the attack has happened, and thus their invisibility has ended).
You have to roll to hit in order to grapple.
There are three options for Unarmed Strike: Damage, Grapple and Shove. Only Damage requires a hit roll. The others do not - they have a Str/Dex save instead.
This is correct: Grappling actually does not break the Invisibility spell because you're not doing the things it says break it. That said:
There's a SAC answer using Sanctuary as example:
What's incorrect? It's exactly the rules published in 2014 that never received an errata. They were revised in 2024 core rules revision.
https://media.wizards.com/2021/dnd/downloads/PH-Errata.pdf
Yes there was one https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/sac/sage-advice-compendium#SA111
Because the Surprise rules were revised to not deprive you from the ability to act, this SAC was not redone in 2024 for obvious reasons.
"Combat" is the set of rules that D&D uses to adjudicate what happens when creatures attack other creatures. To say that combat doesn't start until after an attack has happened, is... certainly an opinion. But there's certainly no mandate that any of the creatures have to be aware -- it's entirely possible to run a combat where only one of the creatures involved is ever aware there's a fight going on. "Starting combat" is just engaging the combat rules, no more, no less. And step one in 5e is rolling initiative.
5E14 Yes .... 5E24 No.
I posted this in response to your post below referring to 2019, which was 5E14. Of course they were revised in 5E24. If you didn't refer to it sorry for confusion then.
Thanks
And my point was your reference was inapplicable to the current rules, because it was way before the rules change, and so had no bearing on the intentions of the 2024 rules (which were obviously totally different).
I find the 2024 surprise rules to be clunky and produce counterintuitive results, but as far as I can tell the key motivation for making the change was to make sure that you couldn't have one side act twice before the other side acted at all, because that was way too powerful at the pace of 5e combat. That means you also can't have combat actions occur outside of combat.
Well, if you roll initiative and the outcome leads to the stealthy would-be attacker just deciding to leave, no creatures have attacked other creatures, so combat never happened. So why did we roll surprise?
I disagree on a fundamental level. Combat is when two or more groups engage in hostile actions against each other. Combat only starts at the moment when all participants become aware there are hostiles. The rules for combat are a formalization to represent that conflict. They don't define combat, they simulate combat.
I start casting a spell - no one knows what it is yet. (If you take a reaction to make an Arcana check, you can't do anything else until the spell has resolved anyway). It could be prestidigitation. It could be charm person. It could be fireball. No one can (usefully) know which until i finish and the spell resolves. If the mere fact of my spellcasting is enough to make you hostile, you might draw your sword. Now combat starts - drawing your sword is an overtly hostile act that everyone is aware of, and my spell will resolve during combat. If no one takes a hostile action, my spell goes off: it's firebolt at the door. If you object to me burning down the door, now you might draw your sword and initiate combat (= we roll initiative), but the spell has already resolved, and it was an attack against the door that happened before combat. If I expected you to be upset by the door burning, I'm not surprised. If I didn't, I'm surprised, even though I literally just made an attack. But my spell could have been a fireball that just fried all your guards - it would still resolve before combat starts unless someone takes a hostile action that starts combat first.
If I start casting a spell and you counterspell it, arguably, we aren't even in combat yet. There's still an opportunity to talk it out.
(The only times intention matters for combat starting are (1) the other side makes a successful insight check against your deception and understands your action to be hostile, or (2) both sides are taking ambiguous actions that could be hostile, such as wizards on both sides casting spells, at which point if either is actually hostile, you should roll initiative. Obviously intentions matter for whether you're surprised someone has taken a hostile action).
The best way to think about initiative is you roll it when sequencing matters, and not just for combat. In the case of a surprise attack spell or an unnoticed invisible assassin, sequencing doesn't matter until after the spell resolves or after the assassin strikes.
Which is from 2019 with totally different surprise rules, and so completely inapplicable. Can you cite the SAC or designers for 2024? No.
Eh, my interpretation allows one creature one attack plus maybe their first combat turn before the other side has acted, which is less than acting twice at most levels, and doesn't involve their whole side double-acting at all.
Also, I think the intention is stupid. Surprise should be devastating. PCs should endeavour to avoid being surprised and to surprise the enemy. I don't understand the 'way too powerful'. If the encounter used any limited resources, it's done its job. The goal of encounters is to eat up limited daily resources. The goal of the PCs is to use as few limited daily resources as reasonably possible each encounter, and how effectively they do that is related to how clever and skillful they are. The way CRs are scaled in 5e, nothing the rules contemplate a party facing is a real threat to the party. (I think CR is benchmarked at too easy a level. Parties that are doing a poor job managing their limited resources should risk a TPK in a typical adventuring day).
And it makes a hash of other rules. When you cast a spell, what spell you're casting can't be the basis of deciding combat starts, because other characters don't know what you're casting. So either Friends doesn't work at all, and Charm Person always grants advantage on the save, OR the spell resolves first and if it starts combat, combat starts after the spell. (You can obviously cast spells out of combat, after all).
And if you have to wait for a spell to resolve to decide if combat has started, then you should similarly have to wait until the invisible assassin has already struck for combat to start, for the same exact reason. (No one knows what's going on until the blade is in your back).
At which point, I don't care what their intention was. I care about everything working in a consistent way.
Further, the grammar of the surprise rules supports combat having already started when you're surprised, which may just be the appearance of obvious hostiles, but it must be something which started combat that has already caused you to be surprised. Your surprise is present tense, caused by something you've already experienced.
If we did things the way you seem to be suggesting, someone with the Alert feat and stealth could literally just blunder through the dungeon and not care about the party being surprised, because chances are they're invisible when combat starts (so advantage cancels disadvantage from surprise) and have a big enough initiative modifier that they probably still go first.
No SAC required now that the surprised rules were revised. The ability to attack before combat Initiative has never been part of 5E core rules so the 5E24 revision didn't add or modify it.