Potent Dragonmark and Spell Preparation. (Eberron: Forge of the Artificer)

Quote from Squirrelloid >>

Quote from Lia_Black >>

I don't see any wording that limits the feats to adding the spells to a single Spellcasting feature or class so I would argue that if you multi class, it adds it to all of the specified features and that they are like wise always prepared under those features.

Spell slots are not class specific, but Pact Magic slots are, so I would count the Potent Dragonmark free slot as a regular spell slot but not as a Pact Magic slot.

 Pact Magic slots are not class specific, either.  If you're a Warlock/Sorceror, you can cast Warlock spells with your regular spell slots, and Sorceror spells with your Warlock spell slots.  (And indeed, you can even turn Warlock spell slots into Sorceror Points).

The only difference between Pact Magic and other slots is you don't add your Warlock levels to your other spellcasting levels and determine a joint spell slot set from that total, the number of Warlock slots are determined solely by your Warlock level.

I think what Lia_Black meant (correct me if I am wrong) is that when you multiclass, the classes with the Spellcasting feature combine to create your spell slots available per the Multiclass table. Pact Magic remains separate. Yes, you can use the any slots to cast any spell, but Pact Magic slots do remain independent.

Quote from TarodNet >>

Dragonmark Stuff Combined:  You always have the spells on your Spells of the Mark list prepared --- (NOTE: unlike other feats, here we don't have "You can also cast these spells using spell slots you have of the appropriate level") 

 

I don't think that text is actually necessary in 2024. If a spell is prepared, you can cast it with slots you have of the appropriate level. I think existing Feats mention it as hold overs from 2014 or to reinforce the change from 2014. However, the requirement to cast a level 1+ spell is that you need to have it prepared and have an appropriate spell slot available. There's not really any other requirement that I can think of.

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

I think what Lia_Black meant (correct me if I am wrong) is that when you multiclass, the classes with the Spellcasting feature combine to create your spell slots available per the Multiclass table. Pact Magic remains separate. Yes, you can use the any slots to cast any spell, but Pact Magic slots do remain independent.

 This is correct. 

Edit: Also there are features that specifically call out the use of Pact Slots (Eldritch Smite), though Potent Dragonmark states that it can only be used for the Dragonmark Spells so it doesn't really impact the discussion.

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

Quote from TarodNet >>

Dragonmark Stuff Combined:  You always have the spells on your Spells of the Mark list prepared --- (NOTE: unlike other feats, here we don't have "You can also cast these spells using spell slots you have of the appropriate level")  

I don't think that text is actually necessary in 2024. If a spell is prepared, you can cast it with slots you have of the appropriate level. I think existing Feats mention it as hold overs from 2014 or to reinforce the change from 2014. However, the requirement to cast a level 1+ spell is that you need to have it prepared and have an appropriate spell slot available. There's not really any other requirement that I can think of.

 I'm not totally sure about this, honestly. If that wording appears in traits and feats, it must be there for a reason.

Or maybe not, and it's like you're saying.

Quote from TarodNet >>

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

Quote from TarodNet >>

Dragonmark Stuff Combined:  You always have the spells on your Spells of the Mark list prepared --- (NOTE: unlike other feats, here we don't have "You can also cast these spells using spell slots you have of the appropriate level")  

I don't think that text is actually necessary in 2024. If a spell is prepared, you can cast it with slots you have of the appropriate level. I think existing Feats mention it as hold overs from 2014 or to reinforce the change from 2014. However, the requirement to cast a level 1+ spell is that you need to have it prepared and have an appropriate spell slot available. There's not really any other requirement that I can think of.

 I'm not totally sure about this, honestly. If that wording appears in traits and feats, it must be there for a reason.

Or maybe not, and it's like you're saying.

 They are added to the class's spellcasting feature so the ability to cast it with your other slots comes from the class's existing feature.

Note: No other feat adds the given spells to your class thus the reason the verbage for slots is required. 

Just writing out your ruling to see if I'm understanding all of you correctly after reading the last posts:

- When you take Potent Dragonmark, all Spells of the Mark (e.g. Mark of Storm Spells) are prepared for all your classes.

- You can cast any of those spells using your own slots, and you choose which Spellcasting Ability to use (if you have more than one) whenever you cast them.

- Additionally, you can cast any of those spells using the free spell slot provided by Potent Dragonmark (half your level (round up), to a maximum of level 5), and you choose which Spellcasting Ability to use (if you have more than one) whenever you cast them.

Can you turn the potent mark spell slot into Sorcery points using Font of Magic?

Quote from IMmoRtAlREapER >>

Can you turn the potent mark spell slot into Sorcery points using Font of Magic?

 IMO, it's ok.

Quote from IMmoRtAlREapER >>

Can you turn the potent mark spell slot into Sorcery points using Font of Magic?

I agree with TarodNet — I don't see anything in the rules for either feature saying you can't do that.

There's a potential abuse case in turning it into sorcery points and then immediately turning those back into an unrestricted spell slot, but the lopsided exchange rate between spell slots and sorcery points means that's a bad bet most of the time, so I don't think it's really an issue in practice.

Quote from IMmoRtAlREapER >>

Can you turn the potent mark spell slot into Sorcery points using Font of Magic?

I am going to say that it's iffy. Potent Dragonmark says "You can use this spell slot to cast only a spell you have prepared because of your Dragonmark feat or the Dragonmark Preparation benefit of this feat."

The placement of "only" is awkward, but I think that it means that only use of the spell slot is to cast Dragonmark spells. If had said "You can only use this spell slot", it would definitely not be allowed. However, because it says to "to cast only a spell", this can be taken to mean that when used to cast a spell, you can only cast these spells, but it can also be read as you can only use it to cast a spell and only these spells.

I would personally lean towards it's not allowed.

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

Quote from IMmoRtAlREapER >>

Can you turn the potent mark spell slot into Sorcery points using Font of Magic?

I am going to say that it's iffy. Potent Dragonmark says "You can use this spell slot to cast only a spell you have prepared because of your Dragonmark feat or the Dragonmark Preparation benefit of this feat."

The placement of "only" is awkward, but I think that it means that only use of the spell slot is to cast Dragonmark spells. If had said "You can only use this spell slot", it would definitely not be allowed. However, because it says to "to cast only a spell", this can be taken to mean that when used to cast a spell, you can only cast these spells, but it can also be read as you can only use it to cast a spell and only these spells.

I would personally lean towards it's not allowed.

 But why does that take precedence over the Level 2: Font of Magic feature? I mean, they're equally potent (pun intended). To me, one is not more specific than the other.

Converting Spell Slots to Sorcery Points. You can expend a spell slot to gain a number of Sorcery Points equal to the slot’s level (no action required).

Quote from TarodNet >>

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

Quote from IMmoRtAlREapER >>

Can you turn the potent mark spell slot into Sorcery points using Font of Magic?

I am going to say that it's iffy. Potent Dragonmark says "You can use this spell slot to cast only a spell you have prepared because of your Dragonmark feat or the Dragonmark Preparation benefit of this feat."

The placement of "only" is awkward, but I think that it means that only use of the spell slot is to cast Dragonmark spells. If had said "You can only use this spell slot", it would definitely not be allowed. However, because it says to "to cast only a spell", this can be taken to mean that when used to cast a spell, you can only cast these spells, but it can also be read as you can only use it to cast a spell and only these spells.

I would personally lean towards it's not allowed.

 But why does that take precedence over the Level 2: Font of Magic feature? I mean, they're equally potent (pun intended). To me, one is not more specific than the other.

Converting Spell Slots to Sorcery Points. You can expend a spell slot to gain a number of Sorcery Points equal to the slot’s level (no action required).

I can see that argument. I guess you wind up with a spell slot that:

• You can expend to gain a number of Sorcery Points equal to the slot's level
• You can use to cast only dragonmark spells

Font of Magic doesn't remove the restriction on how you can use the slot, so it still comes down to whether the restriction is the spells you can cast when you cast a spell or what you can do with the spell slot at all.

The question applies to any effect that requires expending a spell slot, like Eldritch Smite, Wild Resurgence, or Hat of Many Spells (which, unlike Font of Magic, would mostly delete the restriction on the spell slot).

I would still lean towards it's not allowed.

I fully understand your POV, and I would agree that it is a valid ruling as well.

It's just that I think Font of Magic can override Potent Dragonmark. I also think the opposite could be true. So it's a tie, and for this reason, I think it's equally valid to rule that the interaction is allowed.

Spells of the Mark says

If you have the Spellcasting or Pact Magic class feature, the spells on the Mark of Storm Spells table are added to that feature’s spell list.

This means that the spells are added to your spell list.

And as you quoted

A class’s spell list specifies the spells that belong to the class. For example, a Sorcerer spell is a spell on the Sorcerer spell list, and if a Sorcerer knows spells that aren’t on that list, those spells aren’t Sorcerer spells unless a feature says otherwise.

And the Spells of the Mark feature did say otherwise, so they are Sorcerer spells. And this means that you can use an Arcane Focus with it.

Concerning Wild Magic Surge, you quoted

From the multiclassing rules: “Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes.” This rule means only the spells prepared as part of your Sorcerer class features trigger Wild Magic Surge.

and

Your spellcasting can unleash surges of untamed magic. Once per turn, you can roll 1d20 immediately after you cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot. If you roll a 20, roll on the Wild Magic Surge table to create a magical effect.

We know that it is a Sorcerer spell and as long as you cast it with a spell slot, the latter part is fulfilled. As for the former part, the Spells of the Mark feature says that the spells are added to the Sorcerer class feature's spell list, so that part is also fulfilled.

As far as the "prepared" aspect goes, Potent Dragonmark's Dragonmark Preparation feature says

You always have the spells on your Spells of the Mark list (if any) prepared.

which is similar to the Sorcerer subclass features which say in the case of Draconic Sorcery

When you reach a Sorcerer level specified in the Draconic Spells table, you thereafter always have the listed spells prepared.

which explicitly tells you that the spells are considered "prepared". Whether they are "prepared" because you chose to prepare them or whether they are prepared through any of those features is irrelevant.

And, if you take it all together, they still trigger Wild Surge, regardless of how they are prepared because the spells were added to your Spellcasting feature and are prepared as such as part of your Sorcerer class feature because Spells of the Mark added them to your Spellcasting feature and Dragonmark Preparation made them prepared as part of that Spellcasting feature. If you get very picky with the exact wording of the Errata and argue that the spell was prepared as part of a feat and not as part of a Sorcerer feature, you have to also consider the question it answered, hence the context of the answer which was

A Wizard multiclasses into a Sorcerer with the Wild Magic Sorcery subclass. Do spells cast from their spellbook trigger Wild Magic Surge if they are on the Sorcerer spell list, or do they have to gain them from Sorcerer to trigger?

and this situation is inherently different from a multiclass character who prepared spells as part of another class.

Also, you could argue that the feat is a Sorcerer Class Feature because it is taken as part of the Ability Score Improvement feature which is explicitly listed as a Sorcerer class feature and says

You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat (see chapter 5) or another feat of your choice for which you qualify. You gain this feature again at Sorcerer levels 8, 12, and 16.

And not only is "Ability Score Improvement" listed in the text of the Sorcerer class features, if you look at the table of the Sorcerer Class Features and the column titled "class features", it also lists "Ability Score Improvement" in that very column.

In the previous page and in a related thread (*), some folks (me included) were commenting that the multiclassing answer from the SAC is problematic because it contradicts the general SAC answer about what counts as class spells. So, in my opinion, if you use only the general one, it's easier to rule interactions like the one proposed here.

(*) Feat granted spells and how they apply. Also here Cantrip questions when Multiclassing [2024] (comment #31)

Regarding the feat being a class feature because it was taken as part of the Ability Score Improvement feature, it doesn't seem to be:

Quote from TarodNet >>

Quote from Kasanovin >>

Secondarily and closely related to this threads topic, but again referencing some of the things I've seen on other threads. Can anyone provide some clarity on why it seems to be the general consensus of this forum that the langauge in many spellcasting classes (though not Eldritch Knight in particular) of "If another [class] feature gives spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells on the list you prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as [class] spells for you." wouldn't apply to 2024 magic initiate if it were taken with this class feature "Level 4: Ability Score Improvement You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify. You gain this feature again at Warlock levels 8, 12, and 16."

 Because a feat, even when gained through a feature, is not a feature, at least based on the following information from the PHB: 

Chapter 5: Feats
This chapter offers a collection of feats, which are special features not tied to a character class. [...] Your background gives you a feat, and at certain levels, your class gives you the Ability Score Improvement feat or the choice of another feat for which you qualify.

And this information from the Converting to System Reference Document 5.2.1:

Quote from TarodNet >>

Reading the Converting to System Reference Document 5.2.1, maybe this helps regarding the discussion about whether feats (e.g. Ability Score Improvement) are considered class features or a separate thing:

Feats

Feats “Feats” includes the following new and revised elements, which are presented in the order in which they appear in that section.

Feat Descriptions [New Rule]

Feats are now divided into categories, including Origin, General, Fighting Style, and Epic Boon. All feats in this section are new except for the following revised rules.

Ability Score Improvement [Revised Rule]

This rule is now a feat rather than a class feature.

Grappler [Revised Rule]

This feat is revised and is now a General feat.

Fighting Style Feats [Revised Rule]

These rules are now feats rather than class features.