Command Spell - Too OP in 2024 / 5.5

Quote from Natrel >>

Quote from LinkArcher >>

 I think Command is definitely the most overpowered 1st level spell. Suggestion or Hold Person for 2nd, and Haste or Hypnotic Pattern for 3rd.

Nah... Best 1st level Control spell, maybe. Most OP 1st level spell, absolutely not. Silvery Bards is right up there, and Shield's a close second.

I think Silvery Barbs is a strong spell, but not an overpowered one.

Why? You can force an enemy re-roll in other ways, like through the Lucky feat for an attack roll, heightened spell for giving disadvantage on ST (better than simply re-rolling) and etc. Same thing for giving an advantage on the next roll.

Also, against a creature with multiple attacks, if the first hits, are you gonna use Silvery Barbs? Or are you gonna wait to see if the creature will roll a nat 20 in it's next attacks?

In a general way, I don't think that spells cast through Reactions are OP, since that basically gives open groud to enemy spellcasters, since no Counterspell will be available (strongest Reaction spell IMO). But yeah, in a Strixhaven campaign where everyone will probably be a spellcaster, I can see how multiple Silvery Barbs per round can completely turn the odds of a battle.

And I don't think Shield is OP at all, hehehe. It gives you AC until your next turn, which isn't the only defense you need in a combat. If Shield gave you AC for the entire battle, then I'd agree with you.

Quote from Natrel >>

And Haste straight up sucks in 5.5e. If you're a pure spellcaster, you can't even use your extra Action to cast a Cantrip. It can be good depending on your party composition, but it's rarely a good idea to cast it on yourself.

Any spellcaster that uses Haste on themselves deserves whatever they get

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

Quote from VoicesOfTheHighForest >>

1) I didn't pick the Hill Giant because it's a favorable enemy to prove my point. And I don't own the Spelljammer: Adventures in Space book to have access to that elf. I've picked it because it's a really common example of a 3~10 CR monster that is very vulnerable to Control Spells. I could open a thread just to discuss the Hill Giant issue, but that's not the point, it's about the Command spell.

Spelljammer has the most exceptional example of Wis saves. A Revenant is also CR 5 and has a +6 Will Save. The point is more that the average encounter will probably be more of a +1 Wis save, not a -1.

Also, "I didn't pick the Hill Giant because it's a favorable enemy to prove my point. ... I've picked it because it's a really common example of a 3~10 CR monster that is very vulnerable to Control Spells." Is somewhat contradictory. Sure, there may be a difference in intent, but the end result is the same.

Quote from VoicesOfTheHighForest >>

 2) If you think the issue is the monster having the prone condition, I believe you misunderstood me. We can go with "Halt. On its turn, the target doesn’t move and takes no action or Bonus Action.". Doesn't make a difference to my point. In 2014, what happened was: if the spell caster's language was not known by the monster, the spell would just fail. The spell had a restriction, and now it doesn't have any.

It is more severe to lose your turn and have the prone condition as opposed to just losing your turn, provided that your party can capitalize on it. In 5.14, you received languages from your species, from your background, and sometimes from your class/subclass. In addition, officially, you could spend time between adventures learning additional languages or tool proficiencies. Didn't you ever play in a group that diversified their starting languages and taught them to each other? Language was not that prominent a barrier as you make it out to be. In addition, it just means that a powerful spell was consistently powerful until you ran into something that was immune. That was less problematic for Wizards, but for casters that "knew" spells, that was a design issue. Making the spell behave consistently makes it as reliable for any class, not just the ones that can swap it out when they know they are primarily facing humanoids.

A spell that over performs in certain settings and is near useless in others is poorly designed. Toning down the capabilities, making the adjudication more consistent, and having the spell be more consistently applicable are improvements on the 2014 spell.

Quote from VoicesOfTheHighForest >>

3) So I challenge you with this question: what's better than trying to Commant the Hill Giant - or any other creature, be it CR 1, 2, 3 .... 10 - with a level 1 spell? What spell makes the creature lose it's turn regardless of anything else while consuming a spell 1 slot? Tasha's Hideous Laughter lets the enemy roll additional WIS ST with advantage after being damaged. Sleep doesn't work on undead. There is no such spell, Command rules over all of them. I don't even want to discuss if it's more powerful than 3rd level spells, but IMO it is more powerful than any other 1st level or 2nd level spell.

Tasha's Hideous Laughter. You are stuck on single target encounters. In both cases, if you don't attack the target, they lose their next turn and you can focus on other enemies or otherwise prepare.

With Command you have to still worry about reactions. With Tasha's Hideous Laughter, you don't. 

With Command the target can continue concentrating on effects. With Tasha's Hideous Laughter, they can't.

With Command you have to cast the spell again to potentially lock them down for another turn. With Tasha's Hideous Laughter, they save against the same casting and if they pass, you can choose to cast it again on your turn (meaning that they have to pass the save twice to act on their next turn).

For just taking an enemy out of a fight, Tasha's Hideous Laughter beats out Command every time. For giving your party a few free swings, Tasha's is as effective, but the target will likely regain their turn.

Also, let's say a Sorcerer takes Magic Initiate for Tasha's and Heightens it, which saving throws have Disadvantage?

Quote from VoicesOfTheHighForest >>

4) You can advocate that from the 2024 version of Command. In any other versions of the game, the spell had language barrier restrictions or wasn't a control spell. Of course the Bard could know Giant. And that's cool, Giants would be easier to handle for that Bard, which would make sense. But now it's a Joker Card, so to speak, since language isn't a barrier and the spell will work against all enemies regardless of what. Different from any other control spells of level 1 or 2.

Tasha's Hideous Laughter is a control spell of level 1 that scales the same way Command does to boot.

Quote from VoicesOfTheHighForest >>

5) Again, it's not about being prone. I can agree that Tasha's Hideous Laughter's effects are stronger than Command's. But it is so with a counterpart: if the creature takes damage, it re-rolls the save with advantage. So it's less likely for the monster to stay put. Command doesn't care about that at all and players that have some experience with the game will not be giving Opportunity Attacks to a commanded opponent. That's my whole point: it is a 1st level spell that removes the action from an opponent, doesn't matter who they are or what is done to them. Sleep doesn't work on undead and, if an asleep creature gets hit, it awakens - no turn lost. Tasha's give the enemy a chance with advantage to re-roll every single time it is damaged. WHY would you cast sleep or tasha's being a low-level spellcaster? What is the control spell that even gets NEAR the action-economy burst of a Command spell? I can agree with you that against an opponent that is concentrating a powerful spell, Tasha's better. But that's a single scenario, super unlikely at lower levels.

If you have multiple enemies, a common scenario, cast Tasha's Hideous Laughter on one or so and focus on the rest. If you are dealing with a Boss fight scenario, secondary enemies can still be present, but you can also use Tasha's for initial positioning since you shut down reactions. Again, because it shuts down reactions, you can use it for escapes. In a big field, opportunity attacks can be avoided, but you are not always dealing with open spaces or opponents without reach.

In addition, even at CR 5, some creatures have unpleasant Reactions. A Tanarukk (Another -1 Will save enemy) can make an attack with advantage if hit by a melee attack. Command can't stop that at all. Tasha's can, but probably only for the first attack.

Quote from VoicesOfTheHighForest >>

6) I think that by answering the previous topics, I made it clear: Command is broken because it forces an opponent to lose it's action and movement, without any requirements, and being more useful in 99% of the possible battles that we can foresee than the other control spells. Sleep turns into a situational spell, just like Tasha's, because overall Command is just better.

Command is a first level spell that provides a single turn of a control effect. It compares favorably in certain capacities with other control spells but is never broadly more advantageous and sacrifices the potential for sustained effects. Sleep has targets that are immune, but it is an AoE at first level. Until you start upcasting it, Command and Tasha's only affect single targets.

Quote from VoicesOfTheHighForest >>

Am I being blind here? It's hard for me to understand why you guys think the spell isn't in it's most powerful spot in the history of the Dungeons & Dragons franchise. That in pratical terms it's the most powerful control spell you can use. Of course a hold monster allows the creature to be crit'ed often, but in that power level, the monsters will have LR. And Command forces them to spend it in a way that no other spell would. It's an unfair spell in it's current state.

It's as powerful as Tasha's and Sleep (until we start upcasting). Noone is saying it's a bad spell. It's a good spell. It's not as strong as the 2014 version and it's not broken.

Thanks for reading and thanks for the responses.

1) The Hill Giant was a good example of how broken Command can be against a boss, since I was using a 3rd level party as a reference. If the boss has a good Wis ST against control spells, then obviously discussing how OP is a control spell becomes useless. Just like it would discussing how strong is Silvery Barbs against a creature that has a +20 attack roll. Crafting the wrong scenario doesn't make the spell weaker, just make the spell not useful for that scenario.

2) Losing your turn is the worst thing that can happen to any PC or monster in D&D 5.5. If you're losing it while prone, it's even worse... If you're losing it while getting automatically crit'ed, it's even worse.

Also, if a spellcaster spent 250 days to learn a new language (PHB), or 10 to 5 weeks to learn a new language (Xanathar), and after years he/she knows all the languages in the world, good for him! The 2014 version of the spell would have it's restrictions entirely lifted. I'm okay with that. I think your line of reasoning was quite absurd on this.

3) Even against multiple enemies, Tasha's still worse than Command, because if one single creature resists or isn't targeted, it will try to "wake up" it's allies, which will re-roll the WIS ST with advantage after being attacked (attack roll with advantage since it's prone) with an unarmed strike (damage 1 + STR modifier, nothing to worry about).

If the initiative isn't 100% favorable to the PC's in this case, the spell is simply weaker than Command since it can be cancelled, while Command is never cancelled. Against one enemy, we already know that Command is stronger since it doesn't give the enemy any options to get back it's turn while getting hit. Now, Heightened Spell will make Tasha's harder to resist, but the enemy will still have a chance of recovering it's turn. If you want to use Heightened Spell + Tasha's to prove that Command by itself is weaker, than you're just proving my point: you need 2 sorcery points and a metamagic feature to TRY to make the spell stronger than Command.

4) So what? Tasha's still a weaker spell, niched to be super effective against enemies that use concentration, and less effective in all other scenarios.

5) Like I said in 3), Tasha is still weaker on those scenarios. But cool, Tanarukk seems to be another niche scenario for Tasha's. Good for Tasha's, so it's not totally useless when you know Command.

6) Yes, a single turn of control effect, being "lose your action" the most powerful part of a control effect, and "there's nothing to cancel it or to prevent it" the overpowered bit of it, which doesn't exist until you reach lvl 9 and start being able to cast "Hold Monster".

7) As powerful as Tasha's, which lets the creature regain their action when succeeding in a WIS ST with advantage after being hit? And that has a 30 feet range instead of a 60 feet range like Command?

As powerful as Sleep, which awakens the creature automatically when it gets hit? Really, as powerful as Sleep that doesn't work on creatures immune to Charmed? And that has a 30 feet range instead of a 60 feet range like Command?

No, those two spells are weaker than Command. They can be more useful in niche situations. Command has no niche situations, it's a knife for every bread. Tasha's and Sleep are not.

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from Natrel >>

And Haste straight up sucks in 5.5e. If you're a pure spellcaster, you can't even use your extra Action to cast a Cantrip. It can be good depending on your party composition, but it's rarely a good idea to cast it on yourself.

 

Any spellcaster that uses Haste on themselves deserves whatever they get

 That’s honestly true.

Given your nickname, SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>, you should know that in 3.5 there were several ways of being immune to Command: if you're undead, if you don't speak the language of the creature, if the creature is immune to mind affecting spells.

In 5e 2014, they kept the "if you don't speak the language of the creature".

In 5e 2024, they didn't keep anything, making the spell it's most overpowered version of all versions. And I mean it. Go back and look at AD&D 2E or D&D 1E, if you want to go back further.

I strongly believe the spell is overpowered, and it might have been a mistake from the game designers. They probably thought "oh, we're removing the creative part of the spell! So let's make it stronger", without realizing it will be stronger on 95% of scenarios when playing a low-level campaign than any other control spells.

But why would the boss be alone? In D&D having solo boss fights is already swingy as all hell, if the cr difference is too high, it’s a TPK, if it’s not deadly enough, it gets trashed. What if the fight was halfway through the adventuring day, or it had weaker minions?

Quote from ClassicCharismaCaster >>

But why would the boss be alone? In D&D having solo boss fights is already swingy as all hell, if the cr difference is too high, it’s a TPK, if it’s not deadly enough, it gets trashed. What if the fight was halfway through the adventuring day, or it had weaker minions?

Forget about the Hill Giant example... Even if there are minions. Even if it's not a boss fight. Command is still stronger than Sleep and Tasha, since the most impactful thing is to lose your turn and not be able to get it back. And this is the first time in the D&D franchise history where Command doesn't have language restrictions or living creature restrictions.

Now, if you consider that enemies will never attack their friends to wake them up from Tasha's or Sleep, then yeah, you're buffing those spells by yourself, which would make Command less OP.

Quote from VoicesOfTheHighForest >> 

Lose your turn and not be able to get it back.

Now, if you consider that enemies will never attack their friends to wake them up from Tasha's or Sleep, then yeah, you're buffing those spells by yourself, which would make Command less OP.

 I agree that Command's stronger than Tasha's and sleep, but Tasha's can have a person lose several turns if applied correctly, you have to remember that spell slots aren’t unlimited, every slot you use up could have been for something else. An extra first level slot could save your life with Shield or Healing Word, particularly at low levels. Sleep has the possibility of hitting 4 targets at level 1, sure the enemies could wake one another up, but that’s still an action down for every person they wake up, so there’s still a good minimum value.

Quote from LinkArcher >>

 Haste is good for buffing allies. Hold Person? You kidding me? It’s like the only spell that causes paralysis, and it’s affective on 40 or so percent of enemies you come across. And at 2nd level? It’s op! I agree with you about Silvery Barbs and Shield, though. I’ve used suggestion in combat before to wicked effect.

That HEAVILY depends on the campaign. If the campaign is about taking down a cult, you'll see quite a few. Literally any other premise, you'll barely ever see any.

There's only one level 2 spell that I would consider truly OP: Rope Trick. That one's busted. Especially if you use a short rope.

Quote from VoicesOfTheHighForest >>

1) The Hill Giant was a good example of how broken Command can be against a boss, since I was using a 3rd level party as a reference. If the boss has a good Wis ST against control spells, then obviously discussing how OP is a control spell becomes useless. Just like it would discussing how strong is Silvery Barbs against a creature that has a +20 attack roll. Crafting the wrong scenario doesn't make the spell weaker, just make the spell not useful for that scenario.

I'm sorry, what creature exactly has a +20 attack bonus at CR 5? Let's keep the discussion to realistic examples.

The player doesn't control the Wisdom saving throws of their enemies, the DM does. Unless the player is reading the adventure encounters ahead of time, they cannot count on ever encountering a creature with weak Wisdom saving throws. You can expect that the Wisdom saving throws will average out to around +1 and attack bonuses to +6 at CR 5. 

Quote from VoicesOfTheHighForest >>

2) Losing your turn is the worst thing that can happen to any PC or monster in D&D 5.5. If you're losing it while prone, it's even worse... If you're losing it while getting automatically crit'ed, it's even worse.

Also, if a spellcaster spent 250 days to learn a new language (PHB), or 10 to 5 weeks to learn a new language (Xanathar), and after years he/she knows all the languages in the world, good for him! The 2014 version of the spell would have it's restrictions entirely lifted. I'm okay with that. I think your line of reasoning was quite absurd on this.

Command doesn't cause the enemy to be automatically critically hit. The enemy just has the Prone condition. If you have some autocrit home rule, that's your problem, not Command. Additionally, everything Command does to an enemy, Tasha's Hideous Laughter does plus the Incapacitated condition.

If language is important for a character's effectiveness, it is reasonable to spend time expanding the known languages. Draconic, Giant, Goblin, Abyssal, and Infernal were all common languages to pursue. However, nearly half the creatures post 2025 speak common. A relatively small number (maybe 15%-20%) don't speak any language. Having it not work was a niche scenario and removing that makes balancing the spell easier. Having a spell that doesn't work 20%, 40%, or 60% of the time doesn't balance the spell. What are you going to do, power it up so that it is abusive when it does work? That's not balance. Balance requires a relatively stable standard of deviation. 

Quote from VoicesOfTheHighForest >>

3) Even against multiple enemies, Tasha's still worse than Command, because if one single creature resists or isn't targeted, it will try to "wake up" it's allies, which will re-roll the WIS ST with advantage after being attacked (attack roll with advantage since it's prone) with an unarmed strike (damage 1 + STR modifier, nothing to worry about).

There is no mechanic for waking up another creature other damaging it and to damage another creature, you would have to let them. Be in their way and let their movement attract opportunity attacks. You are targeting part of a multi target encounter so that you can deal with a divided enemy group. Why are you letting the unaffected targets run around?

Quote from VoicesOfTheHighForest >>

If the initiative isn't 100% favorable to the PC's in this case, the spell is simply weaker than Command since it can be cancelled, while Command is never cancelled. Against one enemy, we already know that Command is stronger since it doesn't give the enemy any options to get back it's turn while getting hit. Now, Heightened Spell will make Tasha's harder to resist, but the enemy will still have a chance of recovering it's turn. If you want to use Heightened Spell + Tasha's to prove that Command by itself is weaker, than you're just proving my point: you need 2 sorcery points and a metamagic feature to TRY to make the spell stronger than Command.

Initiative has no bearing.

The repeated saves of Tasha's benefit more from Heightened Spell than Command does. In addition, the disadvantage will cancel out the advantage. It's not that you need it, it's just that Command can't benefit from it in the same way. You instead are relying on a failed initial save against Command. If the creature's turn comes up, a failed save continues the spell for another round. A successful save means you can cast it again on your turn, meaning that the creature has to succeed twice.

You are expending a spell slot every turn on Command and if the enemy passes, oops, sucks to be you. Tasha's may last for multiple rounds and also has the option of recasting the spell if it breaks. In addition, it has an audible indicator that the spell has ended (compelled laughing stops).

Everything that makes Command more effective also makes Tasha's at least equally more effective. Everything that makes Tasha's more effective does not make Command equally more effective. 

You're fabricating creatures with +20 attack bonuses and you want to criticize me for demonstrating a scenario that Tasha's can capitalize on more than Command?

Quote from VoicesOfTheHighForest >>

4) So what? Tasha's still a weaker spell, niched to be super effective against enemies that use concentration, and less effective in all other scenarios.

Hardly. Ending Concentration is a niche side benefit, but not why you generally cast the spell. If you want to disrupt Concentration with Tasha's that's a bit of a Hail Mary unless you have a method to make it stick.

No Actions, Bonus Actions, or Reactions is very strong. "No reactions" means no Opportunity Attacks, no Counterspell, no other reaction spells, no attack reactions, no movement reactions, no defense reactions. Tasha's does everything Command: Grovel does and more. 

Quote from VoicesOfTheHighForest >>

7) As powerful as Tasha's, which lets the creature regain their action when succeeding in a WIS ST with advantage after being hit? And that has a 30 feet range instead of a 60 feet range like Command?

As powerful as Sleep, which awakens the creature automatically when it gets hit? Really, as powerful as Sleep that doesn't work on creatures immune to Charmed? And that has a 30 feet range instead of a 60 feet range like Command?

No, those two spells are weaker than Command. They can be more useful in niche situations. Command has no niche situations, it's a knife for every bread. Tasha's and Sleep are not.

Command can't take away reaction and can't break concentration. Command can't target multiple enemies at level 1.

Command is a risky gambit even against enemies with lower Wis Saves. Targeting a Hill Giant "boss" is the niche situation. It is the situation you can't count on when picking your spells unless you have foreknowledge of the encounter.

Quote from ClassicCharismaCaster >>

Quote from VoicesOfTheHighForest >> 

Lose your turn and not be able to get it back.

Now, if you consider that enemies will never attack their friends to wake them up from Tasha's or Sleep, then yeah, you're buffing those spells by yourself, which would make Command less OP.

 I agree that Command's stronger than Tasha's and sleep, but Tasha's can have a person lose several turns if applied correctly, you have to remember that spell slots aren’t unlimited, every slot you use up could have been for something else. An extra first level slot could save your life with Shield or Healing Word, particularly at low levels. Sleep has the possibility of hitting 4 targets at level 1, sure the enemies could wake one another up, but that’s still an action down for every person they wake up, so there’s still a good minimum value.

I know that Tasha's Hideous Laughter and Sleep can be more useful in certain situations, which I was previously calling "niche" situations. Your first phrase is what I'm complaining about: "Command is stronger than Tasha's and Sleep.". That's simply it.

As a comparison, I could have opened a thread saying, "Sorcerous Burst is an OP cantrip," since you would, for example, probably rather cast it with fire than cast Fire Bolt, because of the extra juiciness of an 8 exploding the die.