I'm about to DM for the first time in about 25 years. Obviously, things have changed quite a bit. I'm finding myself at a loss for how to award XP for non-combat tasks such as completing quests, etc. I have the PHB and the Elemental Evil adventure book. I've also downloaded the Basic Rules, and the Elemental Evil online supplement which is supposed to provide everything you need if you don't have the DMG. In none of this material can I find information or guidelines on awarding XP outside of combat. Does that even exist?
I do believe that there is something in the DMG called the milestone method for xp awarding at the end of a chapter or an important plot advancement (i dont remember the page). But, here is my suggestion:
It is really up to you. In the published adventures, there are some examples of non-combat xp award, but depends on the desing of the campaign. Usually when the party uses skill checks or a series of skill checks that determine a significant plot advancement or at the end of an important quest, then you can give the party a boost of xp.
My personal way of guesstimating is consider if the non-combat interaction is advancing their goal. If it is, how would they have had to advance this goal without it. If he talked or traded a bandit leader to give up the McGuffin, well consider if they went the combat route they would have had to kill all those bad guys. Maybe reward 1/2 or even the entire xp reward for defeating the group in combat.
The only part in the DMG that I can see on Noncombat Challenges is a small paragraph saying that the DM might decide that the Players deserve an XP reward. For getting an amount it says to base it the same as combat (depending on the situation), and only to award if the encounter has meaningful risk or a chance of failure.
Long story short - it's up to you. For my games I usually reward the players for good role-playing, or if their player has done something extra I give them extra - usually only 100 xp or so. A complex trap or situation that I've designed to involve multiple checks/saves I might compare it to a monster/battle and work out a total xp amount that I split between the group.
I knew you didn't actually need to kill a foe in combat to gain the xp of that foe. So, for example, if the group manages to trick a bunch of bandits into surrendering, or scares them off, or whatever without ever lifting a blade, those bandits should be considered "defeated" and their xp awarded. I'm more curious about non-combat side quests, conversations that advance the plot, or various other circumstances.
Here's a good example of why I'm asking: I'm going to run Elemental Evil with a group of 2nd level characters. I'll need to use the Chapter 6 side quests to advance them to level 3 before I can kick in the main adventure. Some of those side quests have no combat or foes listed, so therefore no xp assigned to them. If the goal is to level-up the characters, then it seems like there should be some way to award xp when they do those tasks. From what you're saying, I should use best judgement and the needs of party/adventure to determine how much and when to give xp in cases like this.
On the other hand, I can always hold back on the xp to stretch out this introductory area. In other words, I can use these opening quests to warm-up on DMing before getting to the meat of the adventure. Since they are 2nd level, I may need to hold them back a bit so they can complete them all without getting too high before starting.
I knew you didn't actually need to kill a foe in combat to gain the xp of that foe. So, for example, if the group manages to trick a bunch of bandits into surrendering, or scares them off, or whatever without ever lifting a blade, those bandits should be considered "defeated" and their xp awarded. I'm more curious about non-combat side quests, conversations that advance the plot, or various other circumstances.
Here's a good example of why I'm asking: I'm going to run Elemental Evil with a group of 2nd level characters. I'll need to use the Chapter 6 side quests to advance them to level 3 before I can kick in the main adventure. Some of those side quests have no combat or foes listed, so therefore no xp assigned to them. If the goal is to level-up the characters, then it seems like there should be some way to award xp when they do those tasks. From what you're saying, I should use best judgement and the needs of party/adventure to determine how much and when to give xp in cases like this.
On the other hand, I can always hold back on the xp to stretch out this introductory area. In other words, I can use these opening quests to warm-up on DMing before getting to the meat of the adventure. Since they are 2nd level, I may need to hold them back a bit so they can complete them all without getting too high before starting.
Check better at the beginning of chapter six or at the end of each side quest. If am not mistaken, it says how much xp reward should be given to the party.
I think the fact that this is even a question is one of the biggest reasons D&D to known as the "murder-hobo" game.
I remember being a player and our GM was running a module. We spend the session gathering information for our quests, talking to NPCs, putting together disguises, sneaking into a ball, competing in challenges in the court to blend in, and the snagging the information... and we got almost no XP.
The session was WAY more fun then another combat-sim, but it did almost nothing to help progress our characters. We used more of our character's skill, ingenuity, and role playing then any mass combat. It never felt like the game actually rewarded this.
At this point most of my GMs don't assign XP. We level when we're told to, but keeping track of XP just isn't a thing players both with.
To answer your question for the most part I've use the CR of monster for a particular level to figure out given a "standard encounter". I.E. how much XP a "standard encounter" for their level would be worth. Then I'll give out that XP based on the number of cool encounters the PCs have done until they level and or arbitrarily level of them based on what they have accomplished and or what the story requires.
Let's say that in combat is easy to provide a table for the xp. Because it depends on the monsters' CR.
For non combat situations all depends on the campaign' design. How it is supposed to be, the average speed, the final level, the number of encounters...so it is understandable that officially there is no xp table for such situations.
CR is based on a fully stocked party of 4 Adventurers. for 4 level 1 characters a CR 1 is expected to be a "worthy challenge"
If you have a group of level 1 Adventures completing non-combat objectives If you believe this is a "worthy challenge" (it probably isn't) it's 200 XP. Then reduce or increase it from there. "Yes" It's very loose and not nearly as hard/fast as a monster, but the building blocks already exist.
If you want players to think outside kick in the door and loot the room, not doing so needs to be rewarding.
I knew you didn't actually need to kill a foe in combat to gain the xp of that foe. So, for example, if the group manages to trick a bunch of bandits into surrendering, or scares them off, or whatever without ever lifting a blade, those bandits should be considered "defeated" and their xp awarded. I'm more curious about non-combat side quests, conversations that advance the plot, or various other circumstances.
Here's a good example of why I'm asking: I'm going to run Elemental Evil with a group of 2nd level characters. I'll need to use the Chapter 6 side quests to advance them to level 3 before I can kick in the main adventure. Some of those side quests have no combat or foes listed, so therefore no xp assigned to them. If the goal is to level-up the characters, then it seems like there should be some way to award xp when they do those tasks. From what you're saying, I should use best judgement and the needs of party/adventure to determine how much and when to give xp in cases like this.
On the other hand, I can always hold back on the xp to stretch out this introductory area. In other words, I can use these opening quests to warm-up on DMing before getting to the meat of the adventure. Since they are 2nd level, I may need to hold them back a bit so they can complete them all without getting too high before starting.
For PotA I wouldn't bother keeping track of XP and just go the milestone route. Start at 1st level, go up to 2nd level automatically after the Necromancer's Cave, 3rd level automatically after Tomb of Moving Stones, then another 3 levels by the time they've explored all the haunted keeps (consider their exploration as well as the investigation, side quests, and cult reprisals, as part of the main story). I did one level after the missing delegates investigation, Feathergale Spire, and Rivergard Keep. Then one level after Sacred Stone Monastery (there were quite a few rooms/encounters in that place - AND they went there early and got almost destroyed after the first couple rooms, so they had to deal with monks AND minotaurs in the rooms they already investigated). And then another level after Scarlet Moon Hall.
Entertaining story about Scarlet Moon Hall: The fire elemental almost killed the druid in the group, who was on fire, underneath the elemental, AND already had 2 death saving throw failures (thanks to being on fire and unable to be put out). So, if either the elemental or the druid had another turn he was going to die (and both of them went before the bard did). Except the wild magic sorcerer happened to roll a 1 on their wild magic roll and then happened to roll the % to summon a unicorn, which has the ability to heal with it's horn as well as teleport willing targets. I ruled since he was a good-aligned druid that the unicorn would obviously try to save him. So, when the unicorn appeared, I had it act immediately by teleporting itself and the druid away from the battle and used it's horn to heal him. Sure that was two actions and he'd have technically still been on fire, but wtf are the odds that the sorcerer would summon a damn unicorn at the same time that the good-aligned druid would be a turn away from permanent death, in an area that was populated with numerous other druids? Like, this was CLEARLY the D&D gods (including the ever fickle deity of the dice) taking pity on the druid.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
So, if either the elemental or the druid had another turn he was going to die (and both of them went before the bard did). Except the wild magic sorcerer happened to roll a 1 on their wild magic roll and then happened to roll the % to summon a unicorn, which has the ability to heal with it's horn as well as teleport willing targets. I ruled since he was a good-aligned druid that the unicorn would obviously try to save him. So, when the unicorn appeared, I had it act immediately by teleporting itself and the druid away from the battle and used it's horn to heal him. Sure that was two actions and he'd have technically still been on fire, but wtf are the odds that the sorcerer would summon a damn unicorn at the same time that the good-aligned druid would be a turn away from permanent death, in an area that was populated with numerous other druids? Like, this was CLEARLY the D&D gods (including the ever fickle deity of the dice) taking pity on the druid.
and THAT is a story the table will tell over and over again.
Well, two people in the group have stated they like the idea of being handed a level when milestones are reached. Less math and paperwork. Still waiting to see what the other four prefer. Part of me is bummed because I've played D&D for ~35 years tracking XP and watching the "progress bar", to borrow a concept from video game RPGs, get close to a level and the anticipation and excitement that brings. I feel it's a bit of a letdown to end a session and have the DM state "level up before the next session" with no preamble or tension. Oh well. It would be easier to DM as I could just level them as the adventure requires.
On the other hand, I'll still need to track XP insofar as properly balancing the encounters. At least I've found some online calculators to make it easy to plug in the party and then add or subtract number or type of foes until I hit the correct difficulty (trivial/easy/medium/hard/deadly).
See, the problem I have with the XP bar idea is that too many times they'll be focused on killing ALL THE MONSTERS. Which is fine if that's the type of game that's being run, but doesn't really reflect well in games like PotA (which is much more on-the-rails than I normally like).
As for properly balancing the encounters, if you are using the adventure, just add a couple of the regular enemies (or one big enemy) to the already existing encounters (to make up for the extra 2 players). If they want to go after the Sacred Stone Monastery or Scarlet Moon Hall at level 3, let them. It will be fairly difficult and they will have to contend with reinforcements if they choose to leave and/or stop to rest, but if they manage to clear either, reward them by having Feathergale Spire be almost simple by comparison.
Also, just from personal experience: completely ignore the New Management side trek. Just imo, it's stupid and not worth the time it would take for them to actually get it right.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Part of me is bummed because I've played D&D for ~35 years tracking XP and watching the "progress bar", to borrow a concept from video game RPGs, get close to a level and the anticipation and excitement that brings. I feel it's a bit of a letdown to end a session and have the DM state "level up before the next session" with no preamble or tension. Oh well. It would be easier to DM as I could just level them as the adventure requires.
Trust me Pixel_Hunter. I'm currently in a game as a player were we are doing a milestone system. That "watching the progress bar" anticipation is replaced with mystery.
a few games ago we completed a task and we were all "Did we level? Did we level?" The GM smiled and said "Soon, not yet."
Next session he ended it with "And you gain a level" and there was a round of cheers. We just gained a level, so we hadn't even been *thinking* about our next level and focusing on the setting. We're still working out what cool stuff we can do at level 2. In another few games we'll start wondering "is it soon?" and getting ancy and thinking of what we could accomplish to complete a milestone.
... that said, this style isn't for everyone, but our group is getting into it.
The easiest way to do it is to determine how fast you want the PCs to level up. Give them XP based on how difficult the task was. I wouldn't award xp for everything, but maybe for particular cleverness or something. The exact amount of XP is going to depend on their level. (Probably why a table isn't around). Everything is really how fast you want the PCs to level up.
So it seems the consensus for the "best" way to award non-combat XP is to use best judgement. I.E. consider the situation and if it is a situation that is of major importance or significance to the story, then award an amount of XP that is equal to the amount of XP they would have gotten in a combat encounter appropriate for their level and difficulty.
Example 1: The party spends a day in town role-playing and learning several key clues to the next steps on the adventure, a weakness of big baddie, and the mayors favorite color without ever having foes with XP listed - Award them XP equal to an Easy or Medium combat encounter.
Example 2: The party uses a secret path bypassing every encounter, but having to navigate and survive a maze full of deadly traps - Award them XP equal to a Hard or Deadly encounter.
Or I suppose I could just do the new-fangled milestone level awards all you young whippersnappers use nowadays. ;-) You know, in my day, our characters had to trudge to the dungeon 10 miles away, uphill, in 30 feet of snow, barefoot, and with non-magical gear...
Or I suppose I could just do the new-fangled milestone level awards all you young whippersnappers use nowadays. ;-) You know, in my day, our characters had to trudge to the dungeon 10 miles away, uphill, in 30 feet of snow, barefoot, and with non-magical gear...
Personally, if you have a steady group that isn't going to change, this is my preferred method. As a DM you know what level the players will be for encounter, for players, you don't get behind your group, you have less bookkeeping to do, and you gain levels after important events, regardless of how many goblins you killed during said event.
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I'm about to DM for the first time in about 25 years. Obviously, things have changed quite a bit. I'm finding myself at a loss for how to award XP for non-combat tasks such as completing quests, etc. I have the PHB and the Elemental Evil adventure book. I've also downloaded the Basic Rules, and the Elemental Evil online supplement which is supposed to provide everything you need if you don't have the DMG. In none of this material can I find information or guidelines on awarding XP outside of combat. Does that even exist?
I do believe that there is something in the DMG called the milestone method for xp awarding at the end of a chapter or an important plot advancement (i dont remember the page). But, here is my suggestion:
It is really up to you. In the published adventures, there are some examples of non-combat xp award, but depends on the desing of the campaign. Usually when the party uses skill checks or a series of skill checks that determine a significant plot advancement or at the end of an important quest, then you can give the party a boost of xp.
In the DMG p261 gives the official ruling.
My personal way of guesstimating is consider if the non-combat interaction is advancing their goal. If it is, how would they have had to advance this goal without it. If he talked or traded a bandit leader to give up the McGuffin, well consider if they went the combat route they would have had to kill all those bad guys. Maybe reward 1/2 or even the entire xp reward for defeating the group in combat.
The only part in the DMG that I can see on Noncombat Challenges is a small paragraph saying that the DM might decide that the Players deserve an XP reward. For getting an amount it says to base it the same as combat (depending on the situation), and only to award if the encounter has meaningful risk or a chance of failure.
Long story short - it's up to you. For my games I usually reward the players for good role-playing, or if their player has done something extra I give them extra - usually only 100 xp or so. A complex trap or situation that I've designed to involve multiple checks/saves I might compare it to a monster/battle and work out a total xp amount that I split between the group.
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I knew you didn't actually need to kill a foe in combat to gain the xp of that foe. So, for example, if the group manages to trick a bunch of bandits into surrendering, or scares them off, or whatever without ever lifting a blade, those bandits should be considered "defeated" and their xp awarded. I'm more curious about non-combat side quests, conversations that advance the plot, or various other circumstances.
Here's a good example of why I'm asking: I'm going to run Elemental Evil with a group of 2nd level characters. I'll need to use the Chapter 6 side quests to advance them to level 3 before I can kick in the main adventure. Some of those side quests have no combat or foes listed, so therefore no xp assigned to them. If the goal is to level-up the characters, then it seems like there should be some way to award xp when they do those tasks. From what you're saying, I should use best judgement and the needs of party/adventure to determine how much and when to give xp in cases like this.
On the other hand, I can always hold back on the xp to stretch out this introductory area. In other words, I can use these opening quests to warm-up on DMing before getting to the meat of the adventure. Since they are 2nd level, I may need to hold them back a bit so they can complete them all without getting too high before starting.
I think the fact that this is even a question is one of the biggest reasons D&D to known as the "murder-hobo" game.
I remember being a player and our GM was running a module. We spend the session gathering information for our quests, talking to NPCs, putting together disguises, sneaking into a ball, competing in challenges in the court to blend in, and the snagging the information... and we got almost no XP.
The session was WAY more fun then another combat-sim, but it did almost nothing to help progress our characters. We used more of our character's skill, ingenuity, and role playing then any mass combat. It never felt like the game actually rewarded this.
At this point most of my GMs don't assign XP. We level when we're told to, but keeping track of XP just isn't a thing players both with.
To answer your question for the most part I've use the CR of monster for a particular level to figure out given a "standard encounter". I.E. how much XP a "standard encounter" for their level would be worth. Then I'll give out that XP based on the number of cool encounters the PCs have done until they level and or arbitrarily level of them based on what they have accomplished and or what the story requires.
Let's say that in combat is easy to provide a table for the xp. Because it depends on the monsters' CR.
For non combat situations all depends on the campaign' design. How it is supposed to be, the average speed, the final level, the number of encounters...so it is understandable that officially there is no xp table for such situations.
CR is based on a fully stocked party of 4 Adventurers.
for 4 level 1 characters a CR 1 is expected to be a "worthy challenge"
If you have a group of level 1 Adventures completing non-combat objectives
If you believe this is a "worthy challenge" (it probably isn't) it's 200 XP. Then reduce or increase it from there. "Yes" It's very loose and not nearly as hard/fast as a monster, but the building blocks already exist.
If you want players to think outside kick in the door and loot the room, not doing so needs to be rewarding.
Entertaining story about Scarlet Moon Hall: The fire elemental almost killed the druid in the group, who was on fire, underneath the elemental, AND already had 2 death saving throw failures (thanks to being on fire and unable to be put out). So, if either the elemental or the druid had another turn he was going to die (and both of them went before the bard did). Except the wild magic sorcerer happened to roll a 1 on their wild magic roll and then happened to roll the % to summon a unicorn, which has the ability to heal with it's horn as well as teleport willing targets. I ruled since he was a good-aligned druid that the unicorn would obviously try to save him. So, when the unicorn appeared, I had it act immediately by teleporting itself and the druid away from the battle and used it's horn to heal him. Sure that was two actions and he'd have technically still been on fire, but wtf are the odds that the sorcerer would summon a damn unicorn at the same time that the good-aligned druid would be a turn away from permanent death, in an area that was populated with numerous other druids? Like, this was CLEARLY the D&D gods (including the ever fickle deity of the dice) taking pity on the druid.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
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“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Well, two people in the group have stated they like the idea of being handed a level when milestones are reached. Less math and paperwork. Still waiting to see what the other four prefer. Part of me is bummed because I've played D&D for ~35 years tracking XP and watching the "progress bar", to borrow a concept from video game RPGs, get close to a level and the anticipation and excitement that brings. I feel it's a bit of a letdown to end a session and have the DM state "level up before the next session" with no preamble or tension. Oh well. It would be easier to DM as I could just level them as the adventure requires.
On the other hand, I'll still need to track XP insofar as properly balancing the encounters. At least I've found some online calculators to make it easy to plug in the party and then add or subtract number or type of foes until I hit the correct difficulty (trivial/easy/medium/hard/deadly).
See, the problem I have with the XP bar idea is that too many times they'll be focused on killing ALL THE MONSTERS. Which is fine if that's the type of game that's being run, but doesn't really reflect well in games like PotA (which is much more on-the-rails than I normally like).
As for properly balancing the encounters, if you are using the adventure, just add a couple of the regular enemies (or one big enemy) to the already existing encounters (to make up for the extra 2 players). If they want to go after the Sacred Stone Monastery or Scarlet Moon Hall at level 3, let them. It will be fairly difficult and they will have to contend with reinforcements if they choose to leave and/or stop to rest, but if they manage to clear either, reward them by having Feathergale Spire be almost simple by comparison.
Also, just from personal experience: completely ignore the New Management side trek. Just imo, it's stupid and not worth the time it would take for them to actually get it right.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Agree totally. Prefer that way as well
There is a good list of exp point awards in the 2nd edition smh in the middle of the book somewhere. I like it and fully use it a lot.
DMG
The easiest way to do it is to determine how fast you want the PCs to level up. Give them XP based on how difficult the task was. I wouldn't award xp for everything, but maybe for particular cleverness or something. The exact amount of XP is going to depend on their level. (Probably why a table isn't around). Everything is really how fast you want the PCs to level up.
So it seems the consensus for the "best" way to award non-combat XP is to use best judgement. I.E. consider the situation and if it is a situation that is of major importance or significance to the story, then award an amount of XP that is equal to the amount of XP they would have gotten in a combat encounter appropriate for their level and difficulty.
Example 1: The party spends a day in town role-playing and learning several key clues to the next steps on the adventure, a weakness of big baddie, and the mayors favorite color without ever having foes with XP listed - Award them XP equal to an Easy or Medium combat encounter.
Example 2: The party uses a secret path bypassing every encounter, but having to navigate and survive a maze full of deadly traps - Award them XP equal to a Hard or Deadly encounter.
Or I suppose I could just do the new-fangled milestone level awards all you young whippersnappers use nowadays. ;-) You know, in my day, our characters had to trudge to the dungeon 10 miles away, uphill, in 30 feet of snow, barefoot, and with non-magical gear...