Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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Hi Folks,
I don't know if I need clarification or not because I think I understand how this works already. But, just for my sanity's sake I wanted to go over the 2024 Forgery Kit, specifically it's first Utilize property. I can't find any information on this anywhere, or a discussion about it.
Does no one find it strange that a Forgery Kit only allows you to mimic 10 words or fewer of someone else's handwriting? This seems like a huge downgrade from the 2014 rules, and especially the Xanathar's rules. In fact, it makes very little sense. The only "kit" you would require to mimic someone's handwriting is a pen, or maybe Calligrapher's Supplies since I'm assuming there's a quill and ink in them. I guess you could stretch the logic a bit and say there are things like a magnifying glass or something in the kit to help you mimic the handwriting.
It doesn't even really make any sense in the established structure of Supplies/Kits/Tools. Most of these, especially artisan's tools have a "craft" feature, not all of the "other" tools have this feature, like Thieve's Tools and Gaming Sets. But, all the ones that make sense to have the Craft feature, do have it(tools that would logically make things). With the exception of the Forgery Kit, which I would assume crafted forgeries...
I don't know, thoughts?
The tools instances given are examples, not the absolute be-all-end-all of what they can do. It's DC 15 to run off a quick blurb of text, whereas trying to forge a whole letter would be a higher DC.
"The only "kit" you would require to mimic someone's handwriting is a pen, or maybe Calligrapher's Supplies since I'm assuming there's a quill and ink in them."
In 2024 rules, tool kits are an item of inventory and also something you can have proficiency in.
Anyone can purchase the forgery kit. But if you have proficiency in Forgery Kit, then it affects any rolls you make.
Tool kit rolls are Ability/Skill/Tool. For.example : Dex/sleight of hand/thieves tools. I assume forgery would be dex/sleight of hand / forgery tools
The rules work as follows: your base roll is 1d20 plus ability modifier.
If you do not have proficiency in neither skill nor tool, use the base roll.
If you have proficiency in one of either skill or tool, add proficiency bonus.
If you have proficiency in both skill and tool, add proficiency bonus and roll with advantage.
If you have expertise in skill, but no proficiency in tool, add twice proficiency bonus.
If you have expertise is skill and proficiency in toll, add twice your proficiency bonus and roll with advantage.
So while all you might need to write a fake document is a quill, ink, and paper from calligraphy tools, the dc's given for forgery tools is specific to having proficiency in that tool kit.
Anyone who.purchases a tool kit can try to do the things described in the tool kit description. But only if they have proficiency innthe tool kit can they modify their roll to do something innthe tool kit description.
The legacy description of Forgery Kit is much more interesting, and the new rules would make more sense in context of the old content of the kit. Just my opinion, of course.
Remember that this is describing what you can do using an action, i.e. in roughly six seconds or less. It is not meant to be an exhaustive description of everything you could ever possibly do with the tool.
pronouns: he/she/they
Tangentially related is the fact that a DM can optionally choose to only allow characters with proficiency in a tool/skill to roll for something. So while anyone can have a forgery kit, it's within the rules to restrict the use of one in certain circumstances to only characters proficient in it.
Yeah; especially with the bounded scores model of 5e it’s best to restrict any technical or knowledge-based check to characters with prof if you want a sense of verisimilitude to the experience. If the whole party can brute force it, then a 0 mod might still roll high enough to meet the DC, which can take everyone out of the moment roleplay-wise.
I want to clarify my argument a bit, because I think a few different issues are getting mixed together.
First, I do want to correct one thing from my original post. I had forgotten that Utilize is an Action(it was late, I was working on a very detailed tool related homebrew). So in that context, “mimic 10 or fewer words” makes more sense. It is describing what the kit lets you do in one action. I am not arguing that the 10-word limit means nobody can ever forge more than ten words.
My point is specifically about RAW. The 2024 tool rules say the Utilize entry lists things you can do with the tool when you take the Utilize action, and that you can do one of those things each time you take the action. The Forgery Kit’s listed Utilize options are to mimic 10 or fewer words of handwriting or duplicate a wax seal. It has no "Craft" entry.
So as written, I see rules for making parts of a forgery, but I do not see a written rule for creating a full forged document.
I agree that a DM can absolutely allow that. A DM can say, “Sure, make a Dexterity check with your Forgery Kit to create the document,” or require proficiency, or set a higher DC, or apply a relevant skill. That is all reasonable. But that is DM adjudication, not something the Forgery Kit entry itself actually says.
That is why I think the 2014 comparison matters. In 2014, the Forgery Kit explicitly said it contained supplies necessary to create convincing forgeries of physical documents, and proficiency applied to checks made to create a physical forgery of a document. That explicit function is not present in the 2024 entry.
I think experienced players are reading the 2024 rules through the lens of the 2014 rules. We already know what a Forgery Kit is supposed to do, so we fill in the missing function automatically. But if we are talking RAW, I do not think we can rely on the kit’s name or on legacy assumptions. We have to look at what the 2024 text actually provides.
So my argument is not “a DM cannot let you forge documents.” Of course they can. My argument is that the 2024 RAW no longer explicitly gives the Forgery Kit the broader document-forgery function that it had in 2014/Xanathar’s.
In the end, I don’t even know if I’m asking for clarification anymore, or just criticizing the rule. I think my RAW reading is sound, the 2024 Forgery Kit does not clearly provide a way to create a complete forged document. I just don’t think falling back on a generalized DM improvised ruling is good enough in this case. We have structured tool rules for a reason. I mean, I can tell someone an interactive story, hand them a d20, tell them to roll whenever they make a decision, and make up the result myself. But I bought rulebooks for a reason. I want the rules to tell me what the game objects actually do, and in this case, the Forgery Kit does not clearly do that.
"It has no "Craft" entry"
Probably because crafting rules say the time it takes to craft a thing is based off its value in gold. The immediate question would be "whats the gold value of this letter of marque we are trying to craft and forge?"
At some point, the dm will have to step in and decide how long it will take to forge a document. By saying you can forge 10 words in 6 seconds, it becomes somewhat easier to decide how long it takes to forge a 100 word or thousand word document.
Crafting rules also say you have to spend half the value of thing you are crafting in raw materials. Which again will require thr dm to decide the value of the document.
Giving it "craft" options just moves the part of the job that the dm has to homebrew.
Yes, I agree that this is why it has no Craft entry.
A sentence or two could have solved this. Something like, “You can also use a Forgery Kit to create forged documents. The DM determines the time required and the DC based on the document’s complexity.” That would at least establish, in RAW, that creating forged documents is part of what the kit does. They already make a crafting time exception for potions of healing, they could have done it for the Forgery Kit as well.
I also agree that this is a reasonable way for a DM to estimate time. But again, my issue is not really the time calculation. My issue is that the 2024 text does not clearly state that creating a forged document is something the kit can do at all.
If a DM came to the 2024 rules blind, with no knowledge of the 2014 version, I do not think it would be clear from the text that the Forgery Kit can create forged documents. Experienced players assume that because we remember what the kit used to do, and because the name strongly implies it. But as RAW, I still think the function is being inferred rather than stated.
At this point, though, I think I’ve probably moved past rules clarification and into criticism of the rule’s design. I posted this here because I wanted to make sure I was reading the RAW correctly, and I think I have my answer. I still think the 2024 Forgery Kit is missing a clear written function that it really should have, but that is not something anyone here can fix. So I appreciate the responses, and I’ll leave it there.