Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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Um... no. If you haven't taken the Hide to make a Stealth check, the goblin absolutely knows your there.
But you mentioned earlier that the only way to go "unnoticed" by other creatures is to make an ability check using Stealth, and the only way for a player to choose to do that is with the Hide action. That is the source of my confusion.
Also you would not have any advantage on the Stealth roll while magically invisible right?
Definition of the stealth skill: "scape notice by moving quietly and hiding behind things." Right there in that tooltip, even.
Kenclary is confusing this. You are correct, without taking the Hide action to make a Stealth check, you are not unnoticed. And yes, you do not get Advantage on Stealth while magically Invisible, although being magically invisible would allow you to STAY hidden while "out in the open." It could also be reasonable for a DM to give anyone trying to FIND you Disadvantage on Perception checks to do so, and that was actually the rule in 2014 I believe.
That's why I am saying everyone is Daredevil here. That is a damn fine sense of hearing if it can automatically locate a magically invisible creature down to the grid square as soon as they make a step.
Yes, but the question Jayce is asking is if you have NOT made a Stealth check. Not if you HAVE.
It's a game, not a simulation. Think of it like in most videogames with stealth (Skryim, Assassin's creed); even if you're in darkness or the like, if you haven't "crouched" (taken the Hide action) things will know you are there regardless.
And I'm saying if you don't move or talk, you aren't making noise. If you want to move and keep not making noise, make a Stealth check (and beat the listener's passive perception).
The only mechanical effect of the Hide action is to gain the Invisible condition; if you already have it, the Hide action is redundant. But, either way, you may get noticed if you move around. "Getting noticed" means they can target you at disadvantage, if you are invisible-by-spell-or-whatever. It means losing the Invisible condition if you only got it from Hide.
100% agree, just curious to understand the base rules that's all.
Let's do a scenario:
- I cast greater invisibility while I am in the room corner. I do not take the hide action but I do not do anything else.
- 3 rounds later Daredevil, a little goblin, enters the room.
- We roll initiative (I have advantage as I am invisible)
- I move toward him and I hit him (he is wounded but not dead).
- I move away (no attack of opportunity as he can not see me)
- I go back to another corner of the room.
- I move toward him and I hit him from a different angle (he is wounded but not dead).
At what point does Daredevil know I am in a specific square? Does he always know where I am? Does he ever lose track of my location?
Also, if I want to use the hide action to move silently while transparent, RAW, do I need to be heavily obscured or behind 3/4 or total cover?
Yes, but you haven't concealed your presence. You haven't made a Stealth check. Being unnoticed isn't the base state, being noticed is.
Now, in such a scenario it would be completely reasonable for a DM to ask for a Stealth check - particularly since the character has just been sitting Invisible in the room for a while and has had ample time to take the Hide action - but without the check, you're not unnoticed.
Gaining the Invisible condition is NOT the only mechanical effect of the Hide action; being able to make a Stealth check - which is what is required to go unnoticed - is another, and arguably far more important mechanic of it.
Picture this situation. You're in a room, and the door begins opening. The DM says you have enough time for one action. You say "I take the Magic action to cast Invisibility." A moment later, an enemy enters the room. Should they notice you? In my opinion, absolutely. You haven't done anything to make a Stealth check to go unnoticed.
Now, the DM could then say "okay, because of you casting that spell to become Invisible, you can make an ability check with the Stealth skill to escape notice." This would be reasonable. However, as I stated in a previous comment, that is a dangerous precedent. I'll repeat what I said there:
"It can be a bit unbalanced for a DM to allow an ability check using Stealth to happen so easily. There could certainly be circumstances where it makes sense, but ultimately, casting Invisibility is done using the Magic action, and neither the spell nor the action state anything about becoming concealed or going unnoticed.
The Hide action exists for a reason, and does what it does for a reason. Overwriting its specific use by allowing other actions and abilities to perform the same function grants those abilities mechanical benefits beyond what they have, essentially giving the player a free action and disrupting the game's established action economy, while also stepping on the toes of features like Cunning Action that give certain players/NPCs the action economy required to attempt a Stealth check to conceal themselves in addition to taking other actions (such as casting spells via the Magic aciton)."
Unless you at any time make a Stealth check - most likely from the Hide - he never loses track of your location.
The real answer is "ask your DM" because this sort of thing is situational and dependent on rulings and whatnot.
But my answer is he knows what square you're in as soon as you "move toward him" unless you rolled Steath to do so quietly. You have advantage on the attack either way. This only means he could attack you (at Disadvantage) on his turns, again, assuming you continue not trying to be stealthy.
The Hide Action is a special action. "Moving silently" is just an ad-hoc application of the Stealth skill. So, again, "ask your DM" but my answer would be "just roll Stealth and beat his passive perception." I get that answer from reading the rules on both Stealth and Perception and making some easy/common inferences.
Wouldn't roll Stealth without spending an action doing it be unbalanced?
I was thinking if could be helpful to add this to the Hide action text:
"With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself by sight and hearing. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, or already INVISIBLE and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you have the invisible condition already you have advantage on the stealth check (except if the enemy is blind). "
No?
Like, if I'm a level 8 Rogue, with Reliable Talent, DEX18, and Expertise in Stealth, I can't roll beneath a 20 in Stealth, which will always beat a (say) passive-perception-12 goblin. But maybe the goblin has advantage for some reason (considered a +5 to passive scores), or is doing an active Search action (thus could roll really well), or some other situational benefit that makes me easier to hear/find/whatever.
This scenario is already about someone under the effects of a Greater Invisibility spell. I don't see the issue.
Look, I agree that it is a Ask the DM situation of course.
I am just thinking that RAW it seems like a bit of an issue, as the way to move silently is the Hide action. At least this is what the PHB says.
The issue is that a Rogue can take the Hide action as a Bonus Action with their Cunning Action feature, so they very well could cast Invisibility as a Magic action and take the Hide action to make a Stealth check on the same turn. A Wizard, on the other hand, can not do that.
You are arguing to allow the Magic action to take on the same abilities as the Hide action, giving - as I've said twice now - characters mechanical benefits they don't have and disrupting the game's intended action economy.
Look, I'm happy to not keep arguing about this, but that is a very unsound interpretation. The PHB does not say the Hide Action is required to move silently. The Hide Action is for hiding, and not the only application of Stealth.
(Moving silently is, to me at least, still absolutely relevant to staying hidden, or more generally, staying unheard. Yeah, they could have edited all the disparate bits better to make this more obvious, but the Hide Action is just a special way to become unseen-until-you-are-found.)
Assuming you are right, I still do not think doing an "active stealth check" to move unheard should be possible without consuming an action. It shouldn't be a freebie.
That's not the balance at hand.
The Wizard spends a Magic Action to cast Invisibility to be invisible until they attack/cast/etc. Or a Magic Action to cast Greater Invisibility to be invisible until basically the end of the spell's duration.
The Rogue spends a Hide action to become Invisible until they make noise, attack, or get found.
Both of them can make further Stealth rolls to also be unheard as they move about (but they don't need to if they aren't moving around). As it happens, that's higher stakes for the Rogue, since they lose the condition as soon as they make noise, while the Wizard merely becomes targettable by attacks at Disadvantage.
Incorrect. The Rogue is taking the Hide action to "try to conceal themself," which in turn allows them to make a Dexterity (Stealth) check to try to "escape notice," and only upon a successful check do they "become hidden" and gain the Invisible condition "while hidden."
The Wizard, on the other hand, uses the Magic action to cast Invisibility to gain the Invisible condition. That's it.