Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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While Nick (and Dual Wielding) were debated a lot in the beginning, I think the dust has mostly settled on that one. Darkness, however, I think is in the same boat as Hide: the rules don't seem to make a whole lot of sense when taken at face value, and it's not even a problem of "DnD is not a physics simulator". It's the fact that, by RAW, you can't see the moon at night...
.... that is literally what Im saying....
If any enemy spots you, you lose invis conditon.
But if there is only one enemy or so, then this piece seems applicable:
" and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you."
If the enemy is not looking in your direction, even though you are out in the open, you.could retain the hidden condition.
That would have to be a purely subjective call.on the dm's part. But if all the melee players are north of the enemy and atracking the enemy, and the rogue is to the south, successfully hide during their previous action aand is now walking around, behind the enemy, where the enemy is not looking, concievably the dm could allow the rogue to maintain the invisible condition.
Obviously, if the rogue attacks or does the things that auto stops the invis condition, then it ends. But if thr rogue is simply trying to sneak over to the lever that drops the enemy into a pit of spikes, maybe the enemy just isnt looking to the south.
"You stop being hidden immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you"
How does an enemy find a hidden rogue unless rhey take the Search Action and get to do a Perception Check against the Rogues Stealth check roll?
If the rogue is out in the open, the enemy could just turn around, but if they dont Search and they just rely on a distracted/passive perception, maybe they dont think to turn around?
I think if you say the moon casts dim light to infinity, you can see it, raw.
But having only 3 levels of color space brightness is def weird.
They move so the hidden rogue no longer has the prerequisites for stealth. They use an ability that defeats invisibility.
Except it doesn't call for a Search Action, which would seem to be a simple and logical bit of text to include if the intention was that an enemy absolutely must spend action economy to locate you.
The argument that the enemy somehow can instantly track well enough to, say, take a Legendary Action against anyone on the field in the infinitesimal gap of time at the end of a turn or respond to spell cast from "behind" them as you describe it, but cannot perceive a character because they stood behind a crate- potentially for just a moment- because they've been "distracted" is getting into players narrating NPC agency for a favorable outcome.
While my example was meant to really highlight the absurdity, the same logic applies to someone with a torch more than 40ft away. You can't see them (or the torch) without darkvision.
...but this thread (and the 3-4 other recent ones) is about Hide.
I'm sure this has been said ad infinitum elsewhere, but might as well go down the rabbit hole...
Depends on your interpretation, but I think the wording definitely leans more towards you being able to.
Darkness:
"An area of Darkness is Heavily Obscured. See also “Heavily Obscured” and “Playing the Game” (“Exploration”)."
Heavily Obscured:
"You have the Blinded condition while trying to see something in a Heavily Obscured space. See also “Blinded,” “Darkness,” and “Playing the Game” (“Exploration”)."
This could be read as either "when you are in" or "that is in," but given the phrasing (and obvious Intent) the latter makes far more sense.
Obscured Areas:
"A Heavily Obscured area—such as an area with Darkness, heavy fog, or dense foliage—is opaque. You have the Blinded condition (see the Rules Glossary) when trying to see something there."
There isn't much ambiguity to this one; you are trying to "see something there," it's a huge stretch to read this as "when you are there."
You being in a Heavily Obscured area doesn't automatically Blind you to everything; rather, you have the Blinded condition towards something you're trying to see that is, itself, in a Heavily Obscured area (such as Darkness). If something is in light, you can see it, even if you're in a Heavily Obscured area.
Technically you can't say that RAW, because:
"Except it doesn't call for a Search Action,
Well it most certainly does in the basic rules for hide.
Rogue makes a stealth check, dc 15. On success they are hidden, and the value rogue rolled becomes dc for any Perception check to find the rogue.
If rogue remains motionless, even if enemy is looking towards the rogue who is behind cover, hidden, and has the invisible condition, the enemy does not percieve the rogue.
Rules say if hidden, enemy must do a perception check, dc equal to stealth check, to spot them, find them, whatever.
If rogue comes out in open and there are a bunch of enemies can assume one will spot them and rogue loses invis condition.
BUT if there is only one enemy, and the rest of the party attacks that enemy in an effort to distract that one enemy, the dm could rule that the enemy never bothers to look in the direction of the rogue, never does a search, and the rogue remains invisible while standing out in the open, because no enemy is looking at them.
If an active search is required to percieve a hidden rogue, an active search ought at least be considered as a requirement for spotting a rogue who was hidden, but is now in the open, and there is only one enemy, and the rest of party is distracting it.
No where in the 2024 rules for Hide does passive perception ever get mentioned, so the only way to do a perception check is to take the Search action.
2014: rogue stealth check=16 versus goblin perception check=17, rogue never hides. Ever.
2024, minimal interpretation: rogue stealth check dc 15, rolls a 16, is hidden and has invisible condition. They can now attack with advantage. ON THE GOBLINS TURN, goblin takes Search action, rolls a 17, spots the rogue.
At a minimum, the difference between 2014 and 2024 hide rules is 2024 rules allows the rogue the chance to at least hide DURING THEIR TURN, before an enemy can spot them.
This is actually an improvement from 2014 rules where thr "contested check" basically gave the goblin a free Search action on the rogues turn.
If youre not actively searching, dm should at most use your passive perception minus 5 to see if you catch the rogue out of the corner of your eye.
2024 fixes two things, the silly free Search action hidden inside the "contested check" and the fact that Passive Perception is for when youre actively looking and should take a -5 during combat.
"Passive Perception is for when you're actively looking" is a wild sentence.
Noooooo, don't do it. Trust me.
(I agree with you, btw)
Turn away from this path. It only leads to suffering.
No, this makes having high perception nearly useless against stealth; because search takes an action, it's almost never actually worth using in combat.
It does indeed make having a high Passive Perception nearly useless in combat. Which I personally have... very mixed feelings about. Outside combat, it's still useful, which I went into some detail about recently in this comment.
Yeah, it is. Passive perception is for when the players tell the dm theyre going down a dungeon corridor cautiously, checking for traps and ambushes carefully.
And then when the players approach the actual ambush point, but the DM doesnt want to give the players a heads up, the dm instead uses Passive Perception to get their average Perception Check when the Players are taking the Search action.
Passive Perception is 10+perception modifiers. The 10 is an average roll on a d20. And the perception modifiers are the exact same modifiers you would use when taking the Search Action to make a Perceptiin Check.
Passivr Perception was invented solely for the dm to do a perception check for the players without alerting them by asking for a perception check. But the formula is exactly the average value of an active Search Action Perception Check. I.e. the players are being cautious, moving slowly, and checking.
If the players are NOT searching, then passive perception is too high. It would be at disadvantage, which would be a -5 to the passive score.
If the players are dashing through the dungeon the guidance would be apply a -5 to their passive perception to see if they detect the trap or fall into it.
Combat is the same. No one is taking the search action. So passive perception should get a -5 there too.
10 (averge d20 roll) + normal perception modifiers of an active search/perception check.
If not searching, if not cautious, then -5 to that.
If the players have actively said they are "going cautiously" and "checking for traps and ambushes" and you don't let them roll a perception check... what are you even doing??
Did you ever check out the Observant Feat of 2024? It has a Quick Search that says you can do a perception check as a bonus action. But since thats going to be the same roll on average as your passive perception with current rules, Observant is actually a pretty useless Feat.
If my passive perception is 16 which i get for free. that means if i take the observable feat, it lets me use a bonus action to make a perception check which results in, on average, a 16.
In other words, everyone is observant with the current rules because passivr perception gives everyone a free Perception Check, no action required, and no penalty for not actually searching
If the rules were consistent, putting a -5 penalty when players dont take thr Search action, then Observable would actually be a great feat for someone trying to make a highly perceptive character.
No, that is what an active Wisdom(Perception) check is for.
... Dude, what? Player-forward actions - such as the Search action - are things players make; not something the DM makes for them. That's why the wording of them is "when you take the ... action." DM's do not decide you are taking actions for you. Passive Perception does not in any way touch the Search action.
Passive Perception is for when you have not told the DM that you are actively trying to detect something, as well as what you're trying to detect. This is why the Search action specifically says "The Search table suggests which skills are applicable when you take this action, depending on what you’re trying to detect."
If the party (or a character) says they are actively looking for traps, then that is what they take the action for. If enemies are sneaking up on them at the same time, then the DM would use their Passive Perception.
Rulings as to whether Advantage/Disadvantage would apply can then be taken into consideration based on the situation, but there's no blanket rule for when they do, and you most certainly do not apply Disadvantage (-5) to a character's Passive Perception because they aren't actively taking the Search action. That's not how any of this works.
It doesn't just make passive nearly useless. It makes perception nearly useless.
Now, show me a monster that has the observant feat.