Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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If you wanna get all legalese and rules lawyer this nonsense, then you used a level 9 spell slot to cast wish. Ok. The idea that the level 9 slot for wish can be used to upcast magic missile doesnt exist anywhere.
BUT IF IT DID, you used a level 9 slot to cast wish. If you use that same slot to cast magic missile, then thats a LEVEL 9 MAGIC MISSILE SPELL, and the rules for Wish say you can only cast level 8 and below spells.
Show me the rules that says you can cast a spell at level 8 by using a level 9 slot.
"When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell takes on the higher level for that casting"
If you use a level 9 slot to cast wish+magic missile, then magic missile is level 9 and cant be cast using wish cause wish says it can only cast level.8 spells.
Or do you also have a rule that says you can cast a spell with a level 9 slot, but also its somehow really, deep down, a level 8 spell? If you have a rule that says that, it directly contradicts this rule that says if you cast a spell with a higher level slot, the spell takes on that level.
If you cast magic missile with a level 9 slot, the rule you just quoted says its a level 9 spell, and Wish can only cast level 8 or below spells.
So which is it?
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” — Voltaire
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/phb-2024/spells#UsingaHigherLevelSpellSlot
"When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell takes on the higher level for that casting. For instance, if a Wizard casts Magic Missile using a level 2 slot, that Magic Missile is level 2."
https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/2619213-wish
"Wish: The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of level 8 or lower."
So you use a level 9 slot to cast Wish + Magic Missile. Magic Missile becomes a level 9 spell, which violates the requirement for the basic use of Wish being a level 8 or lower spell.
So you cast Wish+Level 9 Magic Missile
Your stength becomes 3 for a few days. And the DM rolls a percentile to see if you can ever cast Wish again
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” — Voltaire
The rule that says you can do so is the text of the Wish spell.
Wish is a level 9 spell. If you use that level 9 slot to cast magic missile, its a level 9 magic missile.
If you are saying you can cast a level 1 magic missile at level 8 using Wish and without using a spell slot that is level 8, please point to that rule.
You quoted that a rule that says a level 2 slot of magic missile makes it a level 2 spell. What level 8 slot did you use to get a level 8 magic missile from a level 9 wish spell?
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” — Voltaire
"When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell takes on the higher level for that casting."
The rule you claim is the clincher specifically says it needs a slot of level 8 to create a level 8 spell.
But youre not burning a level 8 slot anywhere.
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” — Voltaire
If you don't like the way the rules in the Player Handbook are formulated you can take your complains to the writers. I just copy and pasted the text.
As they are now, quality of the prose aside, the rules are clear. RAW an upcasted level is a higher level spell.
""When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell takes on the higher level for that casting."
Assuming this terribly written rule means what you say it means, you use a level 9 slot to cast wish. And then you use that level 9 slot to cast magic missile.
Magic .issile is a level 9 spell now, so violates the basic use of Wish. You get a 33% chance of never casting wish again.
I guess id allow that as dm.
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” — Voltaire
He is not saying that at all. He is saying that the 9th level wish copies the effect of any spell of level 8 or lower
And since any spell upcasted to level 8 is a level 8 spell (RAW) it is possible for wish to copy it with that potency.
The mentioning of the 9th level spell slot expenditure was because ppl seem attached to the idea that a spell casted without a slot is always casted at the lowest level (something I can not find in the PHB anywhere btw).
So not only Wish uses a higher spell sloth, but it doesn't matter because casting wish doesn't cast any other spell then wish.
None. Wish does not cast a spell, it creates the effect of a spell, and I created the effect of "magic missile cast with an 8th level spell slot".
"I created the effect of "magic missile cast with an 8th level spell slot". "
But the only rule thats says level and slot are thr same is a rule that also says you have to use a slot of level N to make the spell level N
So where did you burn that N level slot?
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” — Voltaire
I didn't. If I were to cast magic missile with an 8th level spell slot, it would be an 8th level spell, and a monster statblock would list it as "magic missile (8th level version)". Therefore, the 8th level spell magic missile (8th level version) exists, and since that is a spell of 8th level or lower, it can be replicated with Wish.
You don't.
Any spell that can be upcast can be a higher level spell, potentially.
The spell entity "8th level magic missile" exists, it is real. It doesn't matter if it exists under certain circumstances for the purposes of wish copying it.
Wish can emulate it in that higher status because it exists as an 8th level spell construct in the mind of Mystra.
It's like arguing that Imaginary numbers don't exist because square root of -1 doesn't make sense, or that Potential Energy is not a valid form of Energy.
To put a ribbon on the thread: yes CME can be upcasted with wish or limited wish, but it can not be stored in the Ring of Spell Storing in either cases, as Wish is a 9th lev spell no matter what, so too strong for the ring to contain, and limited wish is not a spell at all.
Ah, so the rule you quote that says you have to use a level 2 slot to make magic missile a level 2 spell, yoibjust quote the part you want and ignore the part that disproves your argument.
Clearly cant make someone see a rule they desparately want to cherry pick to get the result they want.
If your DM allows it, they deserve whatever they get.
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” — Voltaire
The rule says that casting a spell with a higher level slot is a method of making it a higher level spell. It does not say that it is the only way, and there are multiple examples (in magic items and monster stat blocks) proving that it is not the only way.
I don't think he is ignoring it at all.
Also if I recall correctly any sorcerer with Twinned Spell can upcast a spell by a level without expending a higher spell slot.
Frankly the animus here is quite shocking. There is a disagreement on the rules interpretation and the Rule forum is the right place to discuss it. Peace
Indeed... I know can myself get carried away sometimes when discussing rules, but seeing someone else do it really makes me reflect on my own behavior. I'm truly sorry if I've ever looked that unhinged myself.
It's actually pretty important to consider an upcast spell to be a spell of that level for many other mechanics. For example, if a Spirit Guardian upcast to level 9 was still considered a level 3 spell, then Dispel Magic could destroy it without a check, even though you used a level 9 spell slot. Counterspell would also be affected in this fashion. You could put a level 1 spell upcast to level 9 inside a Glyph of Warding, or Contingency. Leomund's Tiny Hut would be able to resist the Pit Fiend's Fireballs, and Globe of Invulnerability would also be affected in a similar way.
What you're proposing would be game-breaking.
"What you're proposing would be game-breaking."
No, what im saying is that every rule that equate a spells level to be higher than its base level does so by using the slot used to cast the spell. Thats actually part of the rule these guys quote.
If you ritual cast a spell or if you have some innate feature that casts a spell without using a slot, it is cast at the spells base level. If you create a spell scroll, its created at the base level.
Wish says nothing about upcasting a spell with a higher level slot. So it uses the spells base level.
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” — Voltaire
I think Twinned Spell allows you to upcast without spending a higher spell slot.
Also wish doesn't upcast nor cast a spell. It merely copies the effect of another spell of level 8 or lower.
.
I would note that there is a problem with how upcasting is written in the rules, in that the text for upcasting typically only applies when cast with a spell slot. Thus, RAW, when you use 3 charges from a wand of magic missiles to cast magic missile as a 3rd level spell, you only get 3 missiles. This is pretty obviously not intended, however (also, it doesn't apply to the various summon spells, as they explicitly use the spell's level in the stat block whether or not you use a spell slot).
It explicitly says how it works and what it does. Specific overrides general.
"When you cast a spell, such as Charm Person, that can be cast with a higher-level spell slot to target an additional creature, you can spend 1 Sorcery Point to increase the spell’s effective level by 1."
"Also wish doesn't upcast nor cast a spell. It merely copies the effect of another spell of level 8 or lower."
What Wish actually says: "The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of level 8 or lower."
Why mention spells of "level 8 or lower" if everyone is going to be casting every spell at level 8, because thats what will happen if your interpretation is how it works?
Magic missile? Cast at level 8. Fireball? Cast at level 8.
Because every rule that mentions upcasting says you need to use a higher level slot. And theres no slot being used here. In twinned metamagic, it explicitly says how the spell is effectively upcast by one level. But there is no mention of upcasting, no mention of slots, no mention of anything about changing "effective" levels in Wish.
So you use base level spell.
If you want a higher level, fine, but you got a 33% chance of never casting wish again.
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” — Voltaire