Wish and the Ring of Spell Storing

The question, of course, is whether Conjure Celestial (8th level version) is a distinct spell that can be replicated, or whether only the base version can be replicated.

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

There is nothing in the rules that allow wish to up cast chromatic orb as a level 8 spell, therefore you cant.

 
Again, Wish does not upcast anything, or cast anything, for that matter. It duplicates an effect, without casting anything other than the Wish spell itself.
It's not a question about the "anything not specifically prohibited is allowed" logic. The Wish spell does explicitly allow this.

"The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of level 8 or lower."
A level 8 Chromatic Orb is a "spell of level 8 or lower", therefore it satisfies the condition explicitly stated by the description of the Wish spell.
It does allow it explicitly, therefore you can get a level 8 Chromatic Orb with Wish.

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

The question, of course, is whether Conjure Celestial (8th level version) is a distinct spell that can be replicated, or whether only the base version can be replicated.

 
I'm surprised that this would even be in question... It's already established RAW that a spell upcast to level N constitutes a level N spell. And that's the only condition that Wish gives. It's the only thing you have to satisfy.

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

"It's already established RAW that a spell upcast to level N constitutes a level N spell."

No. This is absolutrly wrong. Fireball is always a level 3 spell.

If you use an 8th level slot to cast it, its a level 3 spell upcast to level 8.

 The rules disagree with you.

 PHB 2024

Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot

When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell takes on the higher level for that casting. For instance, if a Wizard casts Magic Missile using a level 2 slot, that Magic Missile is level 2. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into.

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

Show me the rules that says you can cast a spell at level 8 by using a level 9 slot.

The rule that says you can do so is the text of the Wish spell.

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

That entire paragraph reads like it was written by an intern who majored in interpretive dance.

Effectively???? Thats saying theyre and an awful lot like the same thing, from a functional point of view, but legally theyre different.

Takes on???? What in the 9 lives does that even mean???

No. Spell level and spell slot level are different concepts. This has to be one of the dumbest bits of pseudo-legalese in the books, and Ive read the nonsense for the rules to hide dozens of times.

As it is now the rules are clear that un 

 

 If you don't like the way the rules in the Player Handbook are formulated you can take your complains to the writers. I just copy and pasted the text.

As they are now, quality of the prose aside, the rules are clear. RAW an upcasted level is a higher level spell.

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

Show me the rules that says you can cast a spell at level 8 by using a level 9 slot.

The rule that says you can do so is the text of the Wish spell.

 

Wish is a level 9 spell. If you use that level 9 slot to cast magic missile, its a level 9 magic missile.

If you are saying you can cast a level 1 magic missile at level 8 using Wish and without using a spell slot that is level 8, please point to that rule.

You quoted that a rule that says a level 2 slot of magic missile makes it a level 2 spell. What level 8 slot did you use to get a level 8 magic missile from a level 9 wish spell?

 He is not saying that at all. He is saying that the 9th level wish copies the effect of any spell of level 8 or lower

 And since any spell upcasted to level 8 is a level 8 spell (RAW) it is possible for wish to copy it with that potency.

The mentioning of the 9th level spell slot expenditure was because ppl seem attached to the idea that a spell casted without a slot is always casted at the lowest level (something I can not find in the PHB anywhere btw).

So not only Wish uses a higher spell sloth, but it doesn't matter because casting wish doesn't cast any other spell then wish.

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

You quoted that a rule that says a level 2 slot of magic missile makes it a level 2 spell. What level 8 slot did you use to get a level 8 magic missile from a level 9 wish spell?

None. Wish does not cast a spell, it creates the effect of a spell, and I created the effect of "magic missile cast with an 8th level spell slot". 

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

"I created the effect of "magic missile cast with an 8th level spell slot". "

But the only rule thats says level and slot are thr same is a rule that also says you have to use a slot of level N to make the spell level N

So where did you burn that N level slot?

I didn't. If I were to cast magic missile with an 8th level spell slot, it would be an 8th level spell, and a monster statblock would list it as "magic missile (8th level version)". Therefore, the 8th level spell magic missile (8th level version) exists, and since that is a spell of 8th level or lower, it can be replicated with Wish.

You don't.

Any spell that can be upcast can be a higher level spell, potentially.

The spell entity "8th level magic missile" exists, it is real. It doesn't matter if it exists under certain circumstances for the purposes of wish copying it.

Wish can emulate it in that higher status because it exists as an 8th level spell construct in the mind of Mystra.

It's like arguing that Imaginary numbers don't exist because square root of -1 doesn't make sense, or that Potential Energy is not a valid form of Energy.

To put a ribbon on the thread: yes CME can be upcasted with wish or limited wish, but it can not be stored in the Ring of Spell Storing in either cases, as Wish is a 9th lev spell no matter what, so too strong for the ring to contain, and limited wish is not a spell at all.

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

Ah, so the rule you quote that says you have to use a level 2  slot to make magic missile a level 2 spell

The rule says that casting a spell with a higher level slot is a method of making it a higher level spell. It does not say that it is the only way, and there are multiple examples (in magic items and monster stat blocks) proving that it is not the only way.

I don't think he is ignoring it at all.

Also if I recall correctly any sorcerer with Twinned Spell can upcast a spell by a level without expending a higher spell slot.

If your DM allows it, they deserve whatever they get.

Frankly the animus here is quite shocking. There is a disagreement on the rules interpretation and the Rule forum is the right place to discuss it. Peace

Indeed... I know can myself get carried away sometimes when discussing rules, but seeing someone else do it really makes me reflect on my own behavior. I'm truly sorry if I've ever looked that unhinged myself.

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

Clearly cant make someone see a rule they desparately want to cherry pick to get the result they want.

If your DM allows it, they deserve whatever they get.

It's actually pretty important to consider an upcast spell to be a spell of that level for many other mechanics. For example, if a Spirit Guardian upcast to level 9 was still considered a level 3 spell, then Dispel Magic could destroy it without a check, even though you used a level 9 spell slot. Counterspell would also be affected in this fashion. You could put a level 1 spell upcast to level 9 inside a Glyph of Warding, or Contingency. Leomund's Tiny Hut would be able to resist the Pit Fiend's Fireballs, and Globe of Invulnerability would also be affected in a similar way. 
What you're proposing would be game-breaking.

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

No, what im saying is that every rule that equate a spells level to be higher than its base level does so by using the slot used to cast the spell. 

I think Twinned Spell allows you to upcast without spending a higher spell slot.

Also wish doesn't upcast nor cast a spell. It merely copies the effect of another spell of level 8 or lower.

.

I would note that there is a problem with how upcasting is written in the rules, in that the text for upcasting typically only applies when cast with a spell slot. Thus, RAW, when you use 3 charges from a wand of magic missiles to cast magic missile as a 3rd level spell, you only get 3 missiles. This is pretty obviously not intended, however (also, it doesn't apply to the various summon spells, as they explicitly use the spell's level in the stat block whether or not you use a spell slot).

Why mention spells of "level 8 or lower" if everyone is going to be casting every spell at level 8, because thats what will happen if your interpretation is how it works?  

Because not necessarily you might want to upcast a spell. You can if you want, you probably should if you are in battle, but you don't have to. It's your wish. 

Quote from Jayce_Danathar >>

Why mention spells of "level 8 or lower" if everyone is going to be casting every spell at level 8, because thats what will happen if your interpretation is how it works?

Because not necessarily you might want to upcast a spell. You can if you want, you probably should if yoou are in battle, but you don't have to. It's your wish.

Also, Simulacrum can't be upcast :)

Quote from kenclary >>

Also, Simulacrum can't be upcast :)

Any spell can be upcast. It's just that some don't derive any benefits from doing so. 

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

I would note that there is a problem with how upcasting is written in the rules, in that the text for upcasting typically only applies when cast with a spell slot. Thus, RAW, when you use 3 charges from a wand of magic missiles to cast magic missile as a 3rd level spell, you only get 3 missiles. This is pretty obviously not intended, however (also, it doesn't apply to the various summon spells, as they explicitly use the spell's level in the stat block whether or not you use a spell slot).

Fortunately, the rules have a "specific beats general" principle 🙂

Quote from Natrel >>

Fortunately, the rules have a "specific beats general" principle 🙂

Which would be relevant if the rules said anything specific.

1. The rules tell you what happens when you cast magic missile as a first level spell.
2. The rules tell you what happens when you cast magic missile as a third level spell with a third level spell slot.
3. The rules do not tell you what happens when you cast magic missile as a third level spell without using a spell slot.
4. The wand of magic missiles says the spell is cast as a third level spell, but does not say it should be treated as having been cast with a third level spell slot.

It's pretty clear that RAI is that (2) and (3) have the same result, but RAW doesn't actually say that.