Wish and the Ring of Spell Storing

Why mention spells of "level 8 or lower" if everyone is going to be casting every spell at level 8, because thats what will happen if your interpretation is how it works?  

Because not necessarily you might want to upcast a spell. You can if you want, you probably should if yoou are in battle, but you don't have to. It's your wish. 

Quote from Jayce_Danathar >>

Why mention spells of "level 8 or lower" if everyone is going to be casting every spell at level 8, because thats what will happen if your interpretation is how it works?

Because not necessarily you might want to upcast a spell. You can if you want, you probably should if yoou are in battle, but you don't have to. It's your wish.

Also, Simulacrum can't be upcast :)

Quote from kenclary >>

Also, Simulacrum can't be upcast :)

Any spell can be upcast. It's just that some don't derive any benefits from doing so. 

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

I would note that there is a problem with how upcasting is written in the rules, in that the text for upcasting typically only applies when cast with a spell slot. Thus, RAW, when you use 3 charges from a wand of magic missiles to cast magic missile as a 3rd level spell, you only get 3 missiles. This is pretty obviously not intended, however (also, it doesn't apply to the various summon spells, as they explicitly use the spell's level in the stat block whether or not you use a spell slot).

Fortunately, the rules have a "specific beats general" principle 🙂

Quote from Natrel >>

Fortunately, the rules have a "specific beats general" principle 🙂

Which would be relevant if the rules said anything specific.

1. The rules tell you what happens when you cast magic missile as a first level spell.
2. The rules tell you what happens when you cast magic missile as a third level spell with a third level spell slot.
3. The rules do not tell you what happens when you cast magic missile as a third level spell without using a spell slot.
4. The wand of magic missiles says the spell is cast as a third level spell, but does not say it should be treated as having been cast with a third level spell slot.

It's pretty clear that RAI is that (2) and (3) have the same result, but RAW doesn't actually say that.

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

What Wish actually says: "The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of level 8 or lower."

Why mention spells of "level 8 or lower" if everyone is going to be casting every spell at level 8, because thats what will happen if your interpretation is how it works?  

Magic missile? Cast at level 8. Fireball? Cast at level 8.

Because every rule that mentions upcasting says you need to use a higher level slot. And theres no slot being used here. In twinned metamagic, it explicitly says how the spell is effectively upcast by one level. But there is no mention of upcasting, no mention of slots, no mention of anything about changing  "effective" levels in Wish.

So you use base level spell.

 
What part of "Wish doesn't actually cast or upcast the spell whose effect you're duplicating" do you not understand?
Wish says it itself: "If you use it this way, you don’t need to meet any requirements to cast that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect."

That's also the reason why you don't have to worry about the duplicated spell's casting time, or even whether it's in your spell list: you're not actually casting it, so you don't even need to know how to.
Normally, to cast a spell with your spellcasting feature, you need to have it in your spell list and have it prepare, and you have to provide the components, respect the casting time, and consume a resource (charge, daily use, spell slot, special action).
It's during that phase that the rules of upcasting apply. You can't upcast a spell by consuming a charge (unless the item specifically casts at a specific level, in the case of Magic Missile, which doesn't constitute "upcasting" as Pantagruel mentioned) or a special action (although some actions mention a specific level, like the Pit Fiend's Fireballs). And THEN, after the casting phase is over, you get to read the description of the spell as it takes effect.

Wish by-passes all that and skips straight to the "takes effect" phase.
That's why any rule related to casting does not apply to Wish's basic use: you never get the point where you need to consider them.

"What part of "Wish doesn't actually cast or upcast the spell whose effect you're duplicating" do you not understand?"

I understand the text you have in quotes isnt a quote from Wish.

You brought up twinned metamagic, it explicitly says how to effectively upcast the spell without a slot, using metamagic instead.   Every other rule says to upcast a spell, you need a higher level spell slot. Make a spell scroll? No slot involved, scroll is always at base spell level.

Theres no slot involved in the "duplicate any other spell of level 8 or lower" part of Wish. It does say "If you use it this way, you don’t need to meet any requirements to cast that spell, including costly components." But given how every other rule, every spell description, every rule about creating things like spell scrolls and ao on, all specifically mention spell slots, and Wish does not, i say a slot is not involved and upcasting cant happen.

It does specifically call out "costly components" which will save you a couple thousand golds worth of material components, but no mention of spel slot or upcasting some other way (like Twinned does), so as written, and in comparison with the way all other rules are written discussing upcasting, Wish appears to let you cast any spell at its base level, up to base level 8, without rolling so see if you can never cast wish again.

If you want to rule in your game that your players can upcast with wish, sure, it seems to be a reasonable, if more relaxed reading of the rules the overlooks the inconsistency it creates of how the rules deal with upcasting. But sure. 

From a power perspective this interpretation of Wish really makes it so that once Wish is available to players, theres no benefit to playing anything but a class that can cast wish. Not only is every spell from every spell list available, but also they can all be upcast to level 8?

Not "you can cast anybspell from any list" but "you can cast any spell from any list upcast to level 8" is a big difference.

No one is playing a fighter with that version of Wish available.

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

If you want to rule in your game that your players can upcast with wish, sure, it seems to be a reasonable, if more relaxed reading of the rules the overlooks the inconsistency it creates of how the rules deal with upcasting. But sure. 

From a power perspective this interpretation of Wish really makes it so that once Wish is available to players, theres no benefit to playing anything but a class that can cast wish. Not only is every spell from every spell list available, but also they can all be upcast to level 8?

Not "you can cast anybspell from any list" but "you can cast any spell from any list upcast to level 8" is a big difference.

No one is playing a fighter with that version of Wish available.

 Let us not pretend that wish can't upcast because it's a balance issue.

If wish with upcasting is so powerful that nobody would play a fighter, then wish without upcasting is quite sufficient for that. But most people don't pick their class because of what they get at 17th level.

Wish can't, by the book, upcast because of how it interacts with the mechanics that are primarily written for other abilities. Whether it would be even more unbalanced if it could is orthogonal to the rules question at hand. (Personally, I doubt it, because upcast spells are generally inferior to what you can get natively at that level.)

No one is playing a fighter with that version of Wish available.

I do not understand why everyone is so focused with being the most powerful character in a group. Frodo was the protagonist of LoTR, not Gandalf, Aragorn or Legolas. There are other things beside sheer power in a RPG fantasy.

And yes, Wish IS the most powerful spell in the game, one that can easily destroy the player character if used wrongly. I am ok with that. 

Beside, I think you moved the goalpost a bit here, from 

what im saying is that every rule that equate a spells level to be higher than its base level does so by using the slot used to cast the spell. 

to 

You brought up twinned metamagic, it explicitly says how to effectively upcast the spell without a slot, using metamagic instead.   Every other rule says to upcast a spell, you need a higher level spell slot. Make a spell scroll? No slot involved, scroll is always at base spell level.

So it is possible to upcast a spell without using a spell slot. There are circumstances where it is possible.

 Wish can't, by the book, upcast because of how it interacts with the mechanics that are primarily written for other abilities. 

As I mentioned earlier, this really seems to me like a philosophical matter. 

Potentiality versus actuality.

THEORY A (Actuality):

• An upcast Magic Missile is an 8th-level spell only once the act of casting with an 8th-level slot has happened.
• Wish never performs that act.
• Therefore Wish never reaches the state where the spell becomes 8th level. In other words: Magic Missile isn't inherently an 8th-level spell. It only becomes one if and when a higher-level slot is actually used.

THEORY B (Potentiality):

• The PHB tells us that once cast with an 8th-level slot, the spell takes on the higher level for that casting.
• Therefore an 8th-level Magic Missile is a valid magical entity that exists within the rules.
• Wish doesn't need to recreate the process or any of the circumstances that made it 8th level; it merely duplicates that already-defined spell entity by spending a level 9 slot.

I really do not think there is a clear winner in this debate. Both theory are compelling and it is a matter of preference until a Sage Advice clarifies it.

Since JC answers lines with theory B, I tend to think this was the RAI.

"Let us not pretend that wish can't upcast because it's a balance issue"

I didnt say that. Im just pointing out the relentless power creep and the ever widening power gap between martials and casters.

"I do not understand why everyone is so focused with being the most powerful character in a group"

Then use Wish only to cast spells at their base level.

Spending the entire thread cherry picking the rules to justify the most over powered interpretation of how the Wish spell works, and then chastizing everyone for being so focused on power? Thats the best epilogue for this entire thread.

You took "costly component" and completely forgot about the "any requirements" and the fact that "costly component" was preceded with "including"...
"You don’t need to meet any requirements" means what it says. You have 0 requirements to meet. No spell slots, no components at all, nothing at all.

An 8th level Chromatic Orb is a level 8 spell that exists in the game. The upcast mechanic is irrelevant to this fact. It is a level 8 spell, therefore you can duplicate its effect as part of Wish, without meeting any requirements normally expected to do so, whatsoever. Whatever you think might prevent this from being possible, it is waived by the "You don’t need to meet any requirements" part of Wish.

"So it is possible to upcast a spell without using a spell slot. There are circumstances where it is possible"

Yeah. Twinned says EXACTLY how effectively upcasting works. Wish makes no mention of it. In the absense of any text about upcasting in Wish, you INSERT something that is not in the text, and ignores how every other spell works. EVERY time upcasting is mentioned in the rules, it very explictly says HOW to upcast.  Wish does not.

But you want that extra power, so here we are.

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

 

But you want that extra power, so here we are.

 Again with the animus. 

Wish makes no mention of it because it does not upcast anything nor cast anything. A spell does not cast nor upcast another spell. Wish copies an effect. 

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

"So it is possible to upcast a spell without using a spell slot. There are circumstances where it is possible"

Yeah. Twinned says EXACTLY how effectively upcasting works. 

There are quite a few places where the rules upcast without a spell slot (as a monster or item specifies a higher level version of a given spell) and do not say anything about how that works. This tells us that upcasting without a spell slot is definitely possible, and that magic missile (level N variant) is a thing that exists in the game and is a level N spell. Therefore, Wish can cast magic missile (level 8 variant), because it's a spell that exists in the game and is 8th level or lower.

"And yes, Wish IS the most powerful spell in the game, one that can easily destroy the player character if used wrongly. I am ok with that."

The only way wish is dangerous is if you use it for anything other than what it calls "basic use".  Basic use is casting any spell below level 9. Most would say that basic use would cast those spells at their base level, and any other casting, such as up casting, would set your stength to 3 for a few days and you risk never casting Wish again.

If youre ok with Wish being dangerous and you dont want people to be so focused on power, then use basic use to cast spells at their base level, and have upcasting be a risk.