...the rule that lets the piece of metal be replaced also lets the flame be replaced. Only material components with specific costs listed are required to actually be present, by the book.
The materials must still be physically present (unless something removes the material component), it is just normally assumed they are in your spell component pouch, and those without costs are assumed to be there for free. The requirement to have a flame must still be present. Since you can't keep a flame in your spell component pouch and since everything that can produce flame has a cost associated with it, you would need someway to produce a flame, a torch or some other device, or possibly a spell that has produce flame or set something on fire.
Technically if you don't have access to your spell component pouch (such as in a prison or something) you can't cast spells with material components absent those components.
Anyway I very much think it is within the DMs right to require the actual flame to be produced, which depending on how it is, may take an action to do so. Especially if the PCs have been intentionally sneaking around the dark.
The materials must still be physically present (unless something removes the material component), it is just normally assumed they are in your spell component pouch, and those without costs are assumed to be there for free. The requirement to have a flame must still be present.
Actually no.
The Material components entry reads as follows:A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
Meaning if you have a spell focus you don't need to have material components Unless the components have a cost associated with them.
The components in Heat Metal are * - (a piece of iron and a flame) No cost listed so if you have a focus you don't need to have either item present to cast the spell.
Compare that to Arcane Lock which recquires * - (gold dust worth at least 25 gp, which the spell consumes) There is a specific cost listed for the item therefor you must have that specific item even if you have a spell focus.
You are right ultimately it is up to the DM and I would only ask that whatever the characters are subject to the monsters and NPCs are also subject to. In my interpretation though what you are describing is not what is described in the books and is actually a bit stricter and involves a lot more inventory management which has the potential to detract from play at the table.
The materials must still be physically present (unless something removes the material component), it is just normally assumed they are in your spell component pouch, and those without costs are assumed to be there for free. The requirement to have a flame must still be present.
Actually no.
The Material components entry reads as follows:A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
Meaning if you have a spell focus you don't need to have material components Unless the components have a cost associated with them.
The components in Heat Metal are * - (a piece of iron and a flame) No cost listed so if you have a focus you don't need to have either item present to cast the spell.
Compare that to Arcane Lock which recquires * - (gold dust worth at least 25 gp, which the spell consumes) There is a specific cost listed for the item therefor you must have that specific item even if you have a spell focus.
You are right ultimately it is up to the DM and I would only ask that whatever the characters are subject to the monsters and NPCs are also subject to. In my interpretation though what you are describing is not what is described in the books and is actually a bit stricter and involves a lot more inventory management which has the potential to detract from play at the table.
Keep in mind my original comment is based on the idea that you find the heat metal spell overpowered. Obviously if you don't, then what I mentioned is not all that important to focus on. So if you do find heat metal over powered, then focusing on the need for an actual flame (which I think is silly to say could be stored in a spell component pouch, things to produce the flame can be stored, the flame itself cannot). So if it had said a torch, I'd have sided with it could be in the spell component pouch, but the actual flame which is required cannot. I'd say this is more common sense then actual rules.
Obviously if you don't find the spell over powered, then there is no need to focus on whether or not the flame could be produced relatively quickly in the middle of combat.
Here are the material things a character could have on hand and be able to cast heat metal by the book, which do not in any way actually run counter to "common sense":
A) Have the specific things listed in the spell: a piece of iron and a flame. What form the iron takes, or how large the flame might be, is irrelevant.
B) Have a spell component pouch: the rules specify that having a hand free to access your spell component pouch is all it takes, because if you know heat metal your pouch and its unspecified contents are assumed to contain a piece of iron and a way to quickly and reliably create a flame, which must not take any more time than casting the spell normally would since the rules don't specify any such extension of casting time for components you can't just pull out of a pocket like fire, nor do they specify that a spell component pouch only replaces components that can reasonably be kept in a pocket.
C-1) Bards can just hold a musical instrument: the rules for spell casting foci also don't specifically call out that some things listed as components, but not assigned specific cost, cannot be replaced.
C-1) Druids can just hold a druidic focus (sprig of mistletoe, totem, wooden staff, or yew wand) for the same reason.
I love this spell. I use it more as an annoyance than anything to take troublesome opponents down a peg..then the DM started throwing things at us that didn't have any metal on them. I think he got mad because I kept using it on armor..over the lower regions..
Regarding the spell being broken: consider that by casting it the caster is foregoing a bunch of other spells like Bane, Entangle, Faerie Fire, Spike Growth, Moonbeam, Flaming Sphere, and Hold Person. Most of those can cripple multiple opponents, and the latter will completely take an opponent out of the fight when applicable. Also, taking off a necklace or pendant can be done as a free object interaction.
Here are the material things a character could have on hand and be able to cast heat metal by the book, which do not in any way actually run counter to "common sense":
...
B) Have a spell component pouch: the rules specify that having a hand free to access your spell component pouch is all it takes, because if you know heat metal your pouch and its unspecified contents are assumed to contain a piece of iron and a way to quickly and reliably create a flame, which must not take any more time than casting the spell normally would since the rules don't specify any such extension of casting time for components you can't just pull out of a pocket like fire, nor do they specify that a spell component pouch only replaces components that can reasonably be kept in a pocket.
Look at the description for a component pouch in the Adventuring Gear section: "A component pouch is a small, watertight leather belt pouch that has compartments to hold all the material components and other special items you need to cast your spells, except for those components that have a specific cost (as indicated in a spell's description)." Also consider that any class can use them (unlike a focus, which only some classes can use, and even then they have to use the right type).
It's clear the intent is that you reach into the pouch and pull out the relevant components. The item exists to abstract away the cost and bookkeeping of all those little miscellaneous items.
This is ultimately a rules-as-written vs rules-as-intended issue and each DM will have a different preference here. The spellcasting rules are clear, but for certain spells like this one you end up having to handwave away components. It almost never matters though. Everyone picks a focus if given the choice, and I can't think of a Ranger, Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster spell with components that can't be kept in a pouch or that they wouldn't be carrying anyways.
I love this spell as it's the only damage spell my Bard has at the moment. That said, because if the concentration cost, it doesn't get cast unless there is a specific target (fighting one guy in armor, someone has a nasty weapon) it doesn't get used. The buffs or debuffs that I have access to are significantly more helpful, I almost always prefer to use them. Think about it like this, you do 3d8 a round (3rd lvl slot), but can't cast Haste or Slow, Hypnotic Pattern or Fear, no Enhance Ability, no Beacon of Hope, no Call Lightning, no Fly, no Spirit Guardians.
My party would much prefer I cast Slow on the enemy rather than Heat Metal.
I had a question... if a bard cast heat metal on the gun of an artificer who had sanctuary cast on themselves, would the sanctuary trigger?
I would say that the target of Heat Metal is the metal object, while Sanctuary wards the creature. So, in your case, the bard does not trigger sanctuary.
I think the locket or medallion is a valid target.
I have a question concerning the Heat Metal spell. In a recent duel (just for fun) my bard cast Heat Metal on a gun being held by an artificer, who had already cast Sanctuary on himself. Does the Heat Metal spell trigger the Sanctuary spell in this situation? (5e rules)
I think the locket or medallion is a valid target.
I have a question concerning the Heat Metal spell. In a recent duel (just for fun) my bard cast Heat Metal on a gun being held by an artificer, who had already cast Sanctuary on himself. Does the Heat Metal spell trigger the Sanctuary spell in this situation? (5e rules)
Why do you think it would? Most of the responses I have gotten on other sites also focus on the Sanctuary spell and tend to overlook the Heat Metal spell. Sanctuary does say if you target the creature, and Heat Metal says you heat an object to red hot intensity. I am curious to know if you have found a rule somewhere I have overlooked as to why the Sanctuary would trigger?
Why do you think it would? Most of the responses I have gotten on other sites also focus on the Sanctuary spell and tend to overlook the Heat Metal spell. Sanctuary does say if you target the creature, and Heat Metal says you heat an object to red hot intensity. I am curious to know if you have found a rule somewhere I have overlooked as to why the Sanctuary would trigger?
Heat metal would be harmful to the person sanctuary is cast on in the stated scenario.
Well Heat Metal would heat up a metal object and the person would take damage from the object, taking damage doesn't trigger Sanctuary. Being targeted does.
I think the issue with the heat metal/object/sanctuary situation is how the DM's/Players will interprets the held object. Technically your not targeting a creature but the spell is targeting what the creature is holding. Personally since sanctuary says it wards the creature I would have to say it also includes the items its wearing/holding but again that is my interpretation of the spell.
Also keep in mind if you let heat metal affect the held object of a person covered by sanctuary then you also have to deal with situations where people start targeting the object with spells instead of the creature. For example, I cast Firebolt at the spell caster's shoes or eldritch blast at his necklace or gloved hands.
The Heat Metal spell specifically states it targets an object. The Firebolt cantrip has wording for targeting an object, and whether items worn or carried are affected. Eldritch Blast cantrip only targets creatures according to the wording of the spell.
Spells that ward items worn or carried state so in their wording such as Fireball or Firebolt. And again Heat Metal does not give you a choice between creatures or objects, you HAVE to target the object.
Sanctuary is a great spell, but it still has to follow all the rules that apply in the game. To better understand the targeting rules check out the chapter on Magic. There is a section about targeting and areas of effect. In there they seem to state there is a difference between creatures, objects, and areas of effect. Since Sanctuary already states that it is triggered by targeting the creature and NOT by areas of effect spells (such as Fireball), I would also say that spells that target an object don't trigger Sanctuary.
The Heat Metal spell specifically states it targets an object. The Firebolt cantrip has wording for targeting an object, and whether items worn or carried are affected. Eldritch Blast cantrip only targets creatures according to the wording of the spell.
Spells that ward items worn or carried state so in their wording such as Fireball or Firebolt. And again Heat Metal does not give you a choice between creatures or objects, you HAVE to target the object.
Sanctuary is a great spell, but it still has to follow all the rules that apply in the game. To better understand the targeting rules check out the chapter on Magic. There is a section about targeting and areas of effect. In there they seem to state there is a difference between creatures, objects, and areas of effect. Since Sanctuary already states that it is triggered by targeting the creature and NOT by areas of effect spells (such as Fireball), I would also say that spells that target an object don't trigger Sanctuary.
You are correct that the letter of the rules is clear that heat metal doesn't trigger the effects of sanctuary, but what I think Questor was getting at is that more than just the letter of the rules can be used when a DM/Player interprets how to have rules interact.
The intent of heat metal when cast on an object held by a creature is to harm that creature, and the intent of sanctuary is (in part) to protect a creature from being harmed by spells. So a DM/Player could interpret the interaction of these spells by that intent and decide to have sanctuary apply.
Though I agree that the clause in sanctuary that points out it doesn't apply when indirectly targeted by an area effect is plenty of reason to also have other indirect targeting such as heat metal be exempt from the protection sanctuary offers.
I agree with you that each DM and even player will differ on how this works. Mostly based on them wanting Sanctuary to protect them from damage, but this is not what this spell is intended to do. If it was it would offer protection from area of effect spells, which it does not. The Sanctuary spell is intended to prevent creatures from attacking you, which is why they have to make a Wisdom saving throw in order to still target you. But in the case of the heated object, well... it can't make a Wisdom save so people try to attribute the damage from the heated object as coming directly from the caster of Heat Metal. They will bend over backwards and make all sorts of assumptions about both spells, usually negative ones about Heat Metal and positive ones about Sanctuary, all in order to support the idea that Sanctuary will trigger.
When I started this debate, I was unbiased, but I have since taken the position that the Sanctuary spell doesn't trigger. I had to read over both spells, more than once, to fully understand them. I looked through the PHB to find anything that would be definitive, one way or the other, and as is the case with many things from 5e it is left up to interpretation. Everything that I found lead me to believe that Sanctuary doesn't trigger. I find it curious that so many, from different sites, all want the Sanctuary to trigger. I guess my next question to debate over would be why aren't there more in favor of Heat Metal not triggering Sanctuary?
I'm not sure what you mean by 'as direct' but from what I understand the Goodberry spell creates up to ten berries. After that anyone can eat these berries, each berry healing 1 hp and providing enough nourishment to sustain a creature for 1 day. So if the caster is killed, robbed, or incapacitated in any way or if the creature it's given to gives it to another the berry still heals and nourishes. Seems like the berries are doing the healing and nourishing, the caster just created them. Also the berries magical properties only last for 24 hours, but the berries remain.
Although you're asking me something about the Goodberry spell you also mentioned the Heat Metal spell. I would just like to add that the intention of the Heat Metal spell is to make a (manufactured) metal item too hot to hold onto. A side effect of this is that it deals fire damage, this damage is dealt on the first turn and is optional on following turns, and the wording of the spell suggests that even this optional damage is to force anyone in contact with the object to drop it (giving them a Con save, failure means they drop it if able, and success means they suffer a disadvantage penalty for continuing to hold onto it).
Comparing other spells to either Heat Metal or Sanctuary would probably only serve to 'muddy the waters' so to speak. I would like to get the most recent designers/creators of the game opinions on this matter. It would be interesting to see how they rule on this particular situation.
Here are the material things a character could have on hand and be able to cast heat metal by the book, which do not in any way actually run counter to "common sense":
A) Have the specific things listed in the spell: a piece of iron and a flame. What form the iron takes, or how large the flame might be, is irrelevant.
B) Have a spell component pouch: the rules specify that having a hand free to access your spell component pouch is all it takes, because if you know heat metal your pouch and its unspecified contents are assumed to contain a piece of iron and a way to quickly and reliably create a flame, which must not take any more time than casting the spell normally would since the rules don't specify any such extension of casting time for components you can't just pull out of a pocket like fire, nor do they specify that a spell component pouch only replaces components that can reasonably be kept in a pocket.
C-1) Bards can just hold a musical instrument: the rules for spell casting foci also don't specifically call out that some things listed as components, but not assigned specific cost, cannot be replaced.
C-1) Druids can just hold a druidic focus (sprig of mistletoe, totem, wooden staff, or yew wand) for the same reason.
I love this spell. I use it more as an annoyance than anything to take troublesome opponents down a peg..then the DM started throwing things at us that didn't have any metal on them. I think he got mad because I kept using it on armor..over the lower regions..
I love this spell as it's the only damage spell my Bard has at the moment. That said, because if the concentration cost, it doesn't get cast unless there is a specific target (fighting one guy in armor, someone has a nasty weapon) it doesn't get used. The buffs or debuffs that I have access to are significantly more helpful, I almost always prefer to use them. Think about it like this, you do 3d8 a round (3rd lvl slot), but can't cast Haste or Slow, Hypnotic Pattern or Fear, no Enhance Ability, no Beacon of Hope, no Call Lightning, no Fly, no Spirit Guardians.
My party would much prefer I cast Slow on the enemy rather than Heat Metal.
I had a question... if a bard cast heat metal on the gun of an artificer who had sanctuary cast on themselves, would the sanctuary trigger?
I think the locket or medallion is a valid target.
I have a question concerning the Heat Metal spell. In a recent duel (just for fun) my bard cast Heat Metal on a gun being held by an artificer, who had already cast Sanctuary on himself. Does the Heat Metal spell trigger the Sanctuary spell in this situation? (5e rules)
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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Why do you think it would? Most of the responses I have gotten on other sites also focus on the Sanctuary spell and tend to overlook the Heat Metal spell. Sanctuary does say if you target the creature, and Heat Metal says you heat an object to red hot intensity. I am curious to know if you have found a rule somewhere I have overlooked as to why the Sanctuary would trigger?
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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Well Heat Metal would heat up a metal object and the person would take damage from the object, taking damage doesn't trigger Sanctuary. Being targeted does.
I think the issue with the heat metal/object/sanctuary situation is how the DM's/Players will interprets the held object. Technically your not targeting a creature but the spell is targeting what the creature is holding. Personally since sanctuary says it wards the creature I would have to say it also includes the items its wearing/holding but again that is my interpretation of the spell.
Also keep in mind if you let heat metal affect the held object of a person covered by sanctuary then you also have to deal with situations where people start targeting the object with spells instead of the creature. For example, I cast Firebolt at the spell caster's shoes or eldritch blast at his necklace or gloved hands.
The Heat Metal spell specifically states it targets an object. The Firebolt cantrip has wording for targeting an object, and whether items worn or carried are affected. Eldritch Blast cantrip only targets creatures according to the wording of the spell.
Spells that ward items worn or carried state so in their wording such as Fireball or Firebolt. And again Heat Metal does not give you a choice between creatures or objects, you HAVE to target the object.
Sanctuary is a great spell, but it still has to follow all the rules that apply in the game. To better understand the targeting rules check out the chapter on Magic. There is a section about targeting and areas of effect. In there they seem to state there is a difference between creatures, objects, and areas of effect. Since Sanctuary already states that it is triggered by targeting the creature and NOT by areas of effect spells (such as Fireball), I would also say that spells that target an object don't trigger Sanctuary.
I agree with you that each DM and even player will differ on how this works. Mostly based on them wanting Sanctuary to protect them from damage, but this is not what this spell is intended to do. If it was it would offer protection from area of effect spells, which it does not. The Sanctuary spell is intended to prevent creatures from attacking you, which is why they have to make a Wisdom saving throw in order to still target you. But in the case of the heated object, well... it can't make a Wisdom save so people try to attribute the damage from the heated object as coming directly from the caster of Heat Metal. They will bend over backwards and make all sorts of assumptions about both spells, usually negative ones about Heat Metal and positive ones about Sanctuary, all in order to support the idea that Sanctuary will trigger.
When I started this debate, I was unbiased, but I have since taken the position that the Sanctuary spell doesn't trigger. I had to read over both spells, more than once, to fully understand them. I looked through the PHB to find anything that would be definitive, one way or the other, and as is the case with many things from 5e it is left up to interpretation. Everything that I found lead me to believe that Sanctuary doesn't trigger. I find it curious that so many, from different sites, all want the Sanctuary to trigger. I guess my next question to debate over would be why aren't there more in favor of Heat Metal not triggering Sanctuary?
Would you agree that healing someone with goodberry is about as direct as damaging someone with heat metal?
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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I'm not sure what you mean by 'as direct' but from what I understand the Goodberry spell creates up to ten berries. After that anyone can eat these berries, each berry healing 1 hp and providing enough nourishment to sustain a creature for 1 day. So if the caster is killed, robbed, or incapacitated in any way or if the creature it's given to gives it to another the berry still heals and nourishes. Seems like the berries are doing the healing and nourishing, the caster just created them. Also the berries magical properties only last for 24 hours, but the berries remain.
Although you're asking me something about the Goodberry spell you also mentioned the Heat Metal spell. I would just like to add that the intention of the Heat Metal spell is to make a (manufactured) metal item too hot to hold onto. A side effect of this is that it deals fire damage, this damage is dealt on the first turn and is optional on following turns, and the wording of the spell suggests that even this optional damage is to force anyone in contact with the object to drop it (giving them a Con save, failure means they drop it if able, and success means they suffer a disadvantage penalty for continuing to hold onto it).
Comparing other spells to either Heat Metal or Sanctuary would probably only serve to 'muddy the waters' so to speak. I would like to get the most recent designers/creators of the game opinions on this matter. It would be interesting to see how they rule on this particular situation.