Vestige Patron Warlock Semblance of Life and multiattack.

So I was watching Coby's video from D4 on the new Vestige Warlock. And it seems it can do some serious damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz2IXIJliUY&t=3720s 

But I have a question about the 14th level feature Semblance of Life (49:43 in the video):

In his stats,

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UQpUDtuckSRQhgy8b7Icwl2491oddUsHnof2mUwV-_8/edit?gid=0#gid=0

cody wrote that the Celestial/Undead/Fiendish Spirit at level 17th does 2d6+11 (x4). I guess he was referring to the fact that Summon Celestial/Fiend/Undead upcasted at level 8 does 4 attacks. So 8d6+44 damages (73 avg).

The feature says that the vestige’s game statistics are replaced by the stat block of the Celestial/Fiend/Undead spirit from the corresponding spell.. but can it actually take the multi-attack action? I have the suspect it can not :( 

In combat, the vestige acts during your turn. It can move and use its Reaction on its own, but the only action it takes is the Dodge action unless

- you take a Bonus Action to command it to take an action in its stat block or some other action.

- You sacrifice one of your attacks when you take the Attack action to command the vestige to take the Vestige’s Strike action.

- or both

But Multiattack is NOT the attack action right?

I think the max you can get the spirit do is attacking twice by spending your attack AND your BA. For 4d6+20 damages.

Or did I miss something? 

I'd love for the spirit to be able to attack 4 times without taking your concentration slot :D

It's an interesting question, though without know the exact wording of the relevant feature- and how a Warlock is upcasting to 8th level, given the way Warlock casting works- it's hard to say. And I can't recall if there's been a SAC or similar word clarifying how Multiattack interacts with the concept of an Attack Action.

Regarding Multiattack being the Attack action, this is from the 5.5e MM:

Multiattack
Some creatures can make more than one attack when they take the Attack action. Such creatures have the Multiattack entry in the “Actions” section of their stat block. This entry details the attacks a creature can make, as well as any additional abilities it can use, as part of the Attack action.

So the creature takes the Attack action to use Multiattack. Also, from the SAC:

What actions can monsters use to make Opportunity Attack? Are Multiattack and breath weapon actions allowed?

When making an Opportunity Attack, a monster can make any single melee attack listed in its stat block. A monster also has the option to make an Unarmed Strike as an Opportunity Attack, following the normal rules of an Unarmed Strike.

An action, such as a breath weapon effect, that doesn’t include a melee attack roll isn’t eligible to be chosen for an Opportunity Attack. Additionally, a monster can’t use its Multiattack when making an Opportunity Attack, because the use of Multiattack specifically predicates on taking the Attack action, and an Opportunity Attack takes a Reaction.

Recalling the thread Questions about Investment of the Chain Master, I think there could be a similar situation with a Warlock with Investment of the Chain Master and a Pseudodragon:

- Quick Attack. As a Bonus Action, you can command the familiar to take the Attack action.

- Multiattack. The pseudodragon makes two Bite attacks (Pseudodragon)

Ah, thank you Tarod!

Quote from Tarod_ >>

Regarding Multiattack being the Attack action, this is from the 5.5e MM:

Multiattack
Some creatures can make more than one attack when they take the Attack action. Such creatures have the Multiattack entry in the “Actions” section of their stat block. This entry details the attacks a creature can make, as well as any additional abilities it can use, as part of the Attack action.

So the creature takes the Attack action to use Multiattack. Also, from the SAC:

What actions can monsters use to make Opportunity Attack? Are Multiattack and breath weapon actions allowed?

When making an Opportunity Attack, a monster can make any single melee attack listed in its stat block. A monster also has the option to make an Unarmed Strike as an Opportunity Attack, following the normal rules of an Unarmed Strike.

An action, such as a breath weapon effect, that doesn’t include a melee attack roll isn’t eligible to be chosen for an Opportunity Attack. Additionally, a monster can’t use its Multiattack when making an Opportunity Attack, because the use of Multiattack specifically predicates on taking the Attack action, and an Opportunity Attack takes a Reaction.

Quote from Tarod_ >>

Recalling the thread Questions about Investment of the Chain Master, I think there could be a similar situation with a Warlock with Investment of the Chain Master and a Pseudodragon:

- Quick Attack. As a Bonus Action, you can command the familiar to take the Attack action.

- Multiattack. The pseudodragon makes two Bite attacks (Pseudodragon)

 This is so interesting. I had completely misunderstood that Multiattack is a legit use of the Attack Action.

I also had the chance to discuss it with a friends and he made an important point about the vestige which I missed completely:

The Vestige in Combat: 

• In combat, the vestige acts during your turn.
• It can move and use its Reaction on its own, but the only action it takes is the Dodge action
• unless you take a Bonus Action to command it to take an action in its stat block or some other action.
• You can also sacrifice one of your attacks when you take the Attack action to command the vestige to take the Vestige’s Strike action. If you have the Incapacitated condition, the vestige acts on its own and isn’t limited to the Dodge action.

The Semblance of Life feature says that the vestige’s game statistics are replaced by the stat block of the Celestial/Fiend/Undead spirit from the corresponding spell. The spell’s level is equal to half your Warlock level (round down; maximum level 9), but the vestige retains its personality, Divine Power Bonus Action, Hit Points, and Hit Point Dice.

 

So, that means that if you spend a BA, the vestige can take an action in its stat block. Once the vestige’s game statistics are replaced by the stat block of the Celestial/Fiend/Undead spirit from the corresponding spell, multiattack is part of their statblock right? So it 100% means that they can take it. 

However  the transformed vestige retains the Divine Power Bonus Action it has also lost the Vestige Strike action (it has ben replaced).

So it means that the Warlock can not spend anymore one of its attacks to command the Vestige to use the Vestige Strike, but can only command it by spending a BA.

----------------------------

Another question for me is, when the vestige is in its regular form, how can you command them to take the Divine Power BA?

When it says that you can take a Bonus Action to command it to take an action in its stat block or some other action does that include the Divine Power BA? 

And if you do so, does that leave the possibility for the vestige to ALSO take the Dodge action on its own?

Quote from Jayce_Danathar>>

[...] I also had the chance to discuss it with a friends and he made an important point about the vestige which I missed completely:

The Vestige in Combat:

• In combat, the vestige acts during your turn.
• It can move and use its Reaction on its own, but the only action it takes is the Dodge action
• unless you take a Bonus Action to command it to take an action in its stat block or some other action.
• You can also sacrifice one of your attacks when you take the Attack action to command the vestige to take the Vestige’s Strike action. If you have the Incapacitated condition, the vestige acts on its own and isn’t limited to the Dodge action.

The Semblance of Life feature says that the vestige’s game statistics are replaced by the stat block of the Celestial/Fiend/Undead spirit from the corresponding spell. The spell’s level is equal to half your Warlock level (round down; maximum level 9), but the vestige retains its personality, Divine Power Bonus Action, Hit Points, and Hit Point Dice.

So, that means that if you spend a BA, the vestige can take an action in its stat block. Once the vestige’s game statistics are replaced by the stat block of the Celestial/Fiend/Undead spirit from the corresponding spell, multiattack is part of their statblock right? So it 100% means that they can take it. 

 I think so.

However  the transformed vestige retains the Divine Power Bonus Action it has also lost the Vestige Strike action (it has ben replaced).

So it means that the Warlock can not spend anymore one of its attacks to command the Vestige to use the Vestige Strike, but can only command it by spending a BA.

 Yes, it seems the Vestige's Strike Action is no longer available in that case.

Another question for me is, when the vestige is in its regular form, how can you command them to take the Divine Power BA?

When it says that you can take a Bonus Action to command it to take an action in its stat block or some other action does that include the Divine Power BA? 

And if you do so, does that leave the possibility for the vestige to ALSO take the Dodge action on its own?

 Well, to me Bonus Actions are not Actions, so I'd rule the Vestige Companion is free to use their Bonus Actions and you don't need to command it to do so.

Please note that I don't have access to the subclass, so sorry if I'm missing some details. It's from the forthcoming book Arcana Unleashed, right?

By the way, the wording of The Vestige in Combat reminds me the Level 3: Primal Companion feature. Maybe this thread it's useful for you: Ranger, Beast Master's Primal Companion Actions

Quote from Jayce_Danathar >>

Quote from Tarod_ >>

Recalling the thread Questions about Investment of the Chain Master, I think there could be a similar situation with a Warlock with Investment of the Chain Master and a Pseudodragon:

- Quick Attack. As a Bonus Action, you can command the familiar to take the Attack action.

- Multiattack. The pseudodragon makes two Bite attacks (Pseudodragon)

 This is so interesting. I had completely misunderstood that Multiattack is a legit use of the Attack Action.

Yea they made a really poor design choice there. The part of the stat bloc that's called "Actions" is quite mislabelled. "Multiattack isn't an action, it is a trait that modifies their attack action. Any named actions (a Pseudodragon for example have "Bite" and "Sting") in that section aren't actions, it is specific attacks they can make (just like a PC might have "Scimitar" or "Longbow" on their character sheet). 

Quote from Jayce_Danathar >>

So, that means that if you spend a BA, the vestige can take an action in its stat block. Once the vestige’s game statistics are replaced by the stat block of the Celestial/Fiend/Undead spirit from the corresponding spell, multiattack is part of their statblock right? So it 100% means that they can take it. 

However  the transformed vestige retains the Divine Power Bonus Action it has also lost the Vestige Strike action (it has ben replaced).

So it means that the Warlock can not spend anymore one of its attacks to command the Vestige to use the Vestige Strike, but can only command it by spending a BA.

Just as Tarod I haven't the subclass to look at atm but yes, that would seem to be correct.

Quote from Jayce_Danathar >>

Another question for me is, when the vestige is in its regular form, how can you command them to take the Divine Power BA?

When it says that you can take a Bonus Action to command it to take an action in its stat block or some other action does that include the Divine Power BA? 

And if you do so, does that leave the possibility for the vestige to ALSO take the Dodge action on its own?

A Bonus Action is an Action (as per chapter 1) so it should be a valid option to command it to do.

Quote from Thezzaruz >>

Quote from Jayce_Danathar >>

Quote from Tarod_ >>

Recalling the thread Questions about Investment of the Chain Master, I think there could be a similar situation with a Warlock with Investment of the Chain Master and a Pseudodragon:

- Quick Attack. As a Bonus Action, you can command the familiar to take the Attack action.

- Multiattack. The pseudodragon makes two Bite attacks (Pseudodragon)

 This is so interesting. I had completely misunderstood that Multiattack is a legit use of the Attack Action.

Yea they made a really poor design choice there. The part of the stat bloc that's called "Actions" is quite mislabelled. "Multiattack isn't an action, it is a trait that modifies their attack action. Any named actions (a Pseudodragon for example have "Bite" and "Sting") in that section aren't actions, it is specific attacks they can make (just like a PC might have "Scimitar" or "Longbow" on their character sheet). [...]

 I was trying to recall something similar you said in the past about it... here! Wildshape and Monk :)

I must recognize that my interpretation is not exactly the same (if I'm following you correctly, apologies if not), based on my understanding of the rules in the Monster Manual and the SAC I posted yesterday.

I consider named actions in the Actions section to be different things (or their own thing, let's say), not being always an attack, so Sting (Pseudodragon) is not an attack, but an effect that force a saving throw (Saving Throw Effect Notation). Or if the monster can take the Spellcasting action, then it casts a spell with "[...] spell save DC (if any spells require a saving throw), and spell attack bonus (if any spells require an attack roll) [...]" but it's not the Magic action.

Arcane Burst (Mage), for example, is simply an Action to make a "Melee or Ranged Attack Roll", not necessarily the Attack action.

All this is to me a change between 5e and 5.5e Monster Manual, and it seems aligned with the changes I shared in that long thread about So monsters can't make Attacks of opportunity. There, I also remember some folks understanding the Monster Manual the way you are explaining it (more or less... I think... sorry again if that's not the case...)

Quote from Tarod_ >>

Quote from Jounichi1983 >>

Quote from TarodNet >>

The only thing I don't agree with in the latest answer is that I don't think the monsters' actions should be matched to the named ones in the PHB. It probably doesn't matter, but in my opinion, it's technically incorrect.

The only named action in the Monster Manual rules is the Attack action (in the context of Multiattack). IMO, the others are unique to monsters.

If it helps to defend my POV, one example could be a breath weapon: 

What actions can monsters use to make opportunity attacks? Are Multiattack and breath weapon actions allowed?

A monster follows the normal opportunity attack rules, which specify that an attack of opportunity is one melee attack. That means a monster must choose a single melee attack to make, either an attack in its stat block or a generic attack, like an unarmed strike. Multiattack doesn’t qualify, not only because it’s more than one attack, but also because the rule on Multiattack (MM , "Multiattack") states that this action can’t be used for opportunity attacks. An action, such as a breath weapon, that doesn’t include an attack roll is also not eligible.

 Sage Advice was written for a specific set of rules in a specific time, neither of which apply today. It's useful for looking back on rules at the time, and we can trace their evolution, but it is wrongheaded to rely on them for interpreting 5.2.

In the 2014 PH, a Ranger (Beast Master Archetype) would order its Ranger's Companion to take the Attack action in order to use the attacks in its stat block. A Mage, or even Strahd von Zarovich, would take the "Cast a Spell" action to use their Spellcasting trait to cast Fireball. The default assumption was you use one of the Actions available to all creatures; unless it didn't fit what you were trying to do. For example, the breath weapon of a dragon or dragonborn.

  In 2014, a Mage had a special trait for casting spells, nothing related to the "Cast a Spell" action.

EDIT: Under the 2014 rules, we had the entry I previously quoted in the SAC, and Corrupting Touch was its own action, not a "Cast a Spell" action:

A few monsters can make opportunity attacks with melee spell attacks. Here’s how: certain monsters—including the banshee, the lich, and the specter—have a melee spell attack that isn’t delivered by a spell. For example, the banshee’s Corrupting Touch action is a melee spell attack but no spell is cast to make it. The banshee can, therefore, make opportunity attacks with Corrupting Touch.

 

Quote from Jounichi1983 >>

Then new books changed the format for monster stat blocks. Spellcasting stopped being a trait (with a spellcasting class, level, and spell slots) and was placed under "Actions" with a truncated list and limited castings of each spell per day. I understand the impulse to call Spellcasting an Action, because we want consistency and how dare exception-based rules have exceptions, but those people are wrong.

 The next article from 2021 explains that Spellcasting has evolved to be its own action for new monsters: https://web.archive.org/web/20240229074356/https://dnd.wizards.com/sage-advice/creature-evolutions (the original article is no longer available, so we need to access it through the Wayback Machine) --- emphasis mine.

Since 2014, spellcasting creatures have tended to have the Spellcasting trait, the Innate Spellcasting Trait, or both. Starting in 2021, we have merged those two traits into an action called Spellcasting. That action now appears in the “Actions” section of a stat block, and it has a few important qualities:

• The Spellcasting action doesn’t use spell slots. A creature can cast the action’s spells a certain number of times per day.
• The only spells that appear in the Spellcasting action are ones that take an action to cast. If a spell requires a bonus action, a reaction, or a minute or more to cast, that spell must appear elsewhere in the stat block. This change ensures that bonus actions and reactions—such as misty step and shield—aren’t hiding out in a list of spells.
• We’re more selective about which spells appear in a stat block, focusing on spells that have noncombat utility. A magic-using monster’s most potent firepower is now usually represented by a special magical action, rather than relying on spells.