All three of the main "does it work or not?" rolls in DnD 5 are basically the same. 1d20+(Ability Score Modifier). You might have advantage or disadvantage, you might get to add your proficiency bonus, you might get other bonuses from spells etc, but that's the basic "d20 system" mechanic.
So why have three different types of dice rolls in the game that all do the same thing, more or less?
Obviously, saving throws are for when you get a spell cast that either might or might not affect you in some way and you're trying to avoid or resit it. I get that, and it's fine that it has to be its own separate thing. It's basically part of the spell mechanics, though it comes up in a few other places (poisons, traps, monster abilities, etc).
But I see no reason why we need to make "skill tests" separate from "ability score tests" when they're very often EXACTLY the same roll.
There's a finite amount of stuff that those types of rolls actually apply to, and often applying them becomes a problem of looking up what you're actually rolling and why.
Example: Rogue tries to pick a lock. You might think that's a Slight of Hand skill test, but in the rules it's listed as a Dex ability check to which you can add your proficiency bonus, if you're using Thief's tools. Since Rogues usually have Thief's tools, they're usually going to roll a d20 and add their proficiency bonus and their Dex, which is exactly how you'd roll a Sleight of Hand test (assuming you're proficient in that). So the question is academic as to which thing it is, because the result is the same either way. BUT, the Rogue also gets "Expertise" and might be allowed to add DOUBLE their proficency to the roll, making it TECHNICALLY different, in case you get it wrong.
I just don't see a lot of value added in trying to differentiate between Skill tests and Ability score tests in the first place. It adds a layer of complexity that I feel is unnecessary, usually.
Also, how often does any DM actually make anyone roll a raw ability score test anyway? They don't come up all that often in my campaigns, and when they do, the players usually want to use a skill for it instead. Also, a lot of stuff in the PHB will get you a bonus or advantage on "Ability checks" which I assume doesn't apply to skills or saving throws, or it would say so.
It's as if the rules writers assumed that people would be making ability tests a lot, and so they wrote spells that give you advantage on them etc in different places. Then they added in saving throws and skills afterward and they never came to the realization that they had basically made the ability score test (which were assumed to be something that would come up a lot) obsolete in most cases.
"Skill tests," as you call them, are ability checks. To repeat, all skill checks are ability checks. A Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check is simply a Dexterity check to which you can apply any Sleight of Hand bonuses you might have. A Dexterity (Thieves' Tools) check--whether or not it's supposed to be written that way--is simply a Dexterity check to which you can apply any bonuses you might have with thieves' tools.
The ability check/attack roll/saving throw thing is in 5e because it's been in the game since OD&D and the designers considered it fundamental to the D&D experience--and because it's a very useful distinction to be able to make for a game as combat-focused as D&D.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
But I see no reason why we need to make "skill tests" separate from "ability score tests" when they're very often EXACTLY the same roll.
There's no such thing as a skill test or skill check. There's ability checks, which sometimes involve a skill, tool, or vehicle proficiency.
Also, how often does any DM actually make anyone roll a raw ability score test anyway? They don't come up all that often in my campaigns, and when they do, the players usually want to use a skill for it instead.
Strength checks come up when characters want to break or force something open. Initiative is a dexterity check too. Personally, I use pure intelligence checks to see if a character remembers a past event that's relevant to the current situation.
Also, a lot of stuff in the PHB will get you a bonus or advantage on "Ability checks" which I assume doesn't apply to skills or saving throws, or it would say so.
A bonus to ability checks applies any time you're making an ability check, including when a skill is involved.
Thanks for the info. I've played so many versions of DnD by now the rules are all mixing together in my head. It makes more sense that all skills are just subcategories of ability checks, with possible bonuses.
All three of the main "does it work or not?" rolls in DnD 5 are basically the same. 1d20+(Ability Score Modifier).
They are, and I think that is deliberate.
The core mechanic is: Roll d20 + Ability Modifier + Other Stuff.
"Other Stuff" can include your proficiency bonus, magic item bonuses and penalties, and situational bonus and penalties.
You want to hit something with a big axe? Roll d20 + STR Mod + Proficiency Bonus. You don't know how to use a big axe effectively? Just roll d20 + STR Mod.
You want to persuade the guard to let you in? Roll d20 + CHA Mod + Proficiency Bonus. You haven't got any experience in how to persuade people effectively? Just roll d20 + CHA Mod.
You want to get out of the way of a fireball? Roll d20 + DEX Mod + Proficiency Bonus. You aren't specifically trained in dodging? Just roll d20 + DEX Mod.
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All three of the main "does it work or not?" rolls in DnD 5 are basically the same. 1d20+(Ability Score Modifier). You might have advantage or disadvantage, you might get to add your proficiency bonus, you might get other bonuses from spells etc, but that's the basic "d20 system" mechanic.
So why have three different types of dice rolls in the game that all do the same thing, more or less?
Obviously, saving throws are for when you get a spell cast that either might or might not affect you in some way and you're trying to avoid or resit it. I get that, and it's fine that it has to be its own separate thing. It's basically part of the spell mechanics, though it comes up in a few other places (poisons, traps, monster abilities, etc).
But I see no reason why we need to make "skill tests" separate from "ability score tests" when they're very often EXACTLY the same roll.
There's a finite amount of stuff that those types of rolls actually apply to, and often applying them becomes a problem of looking up what you're actually rolling and why.
Example: Rogue tries to pick a lock. You might think that's a Slight of Hand skill test, but in the rules it's listed as a Dex ability check to which you can add your proficiency bonus, if you're using Thief's tools. Since Rogues usually have Thief's tools, they're usually going to roll a d20 and add their proficiency bonus and their Dex, which is exactly how you'd roll a Sleight of Hand test (assuming you're proficient in that). So the question is academic as to which thing it is, because the result is the same either way. BUT, the Rogue also gets "Expertise" and might be allowed to add DOUBLE their proficency to the roll, making it TECHNICALLY different, in case you get it wrong.
I just don't see a lot of value added in trying to differentiate between Skill tests and Ability score tests in the first place. It adds a layer of complexity that I feel is unnecessary, usually.
Also, how often does any DM actually make anyone roll a raw ability score test anyway? They don't come up all that often in my campaigns, and when they do, the players usually want to use a skill for it instead. Also, a lot of stuff in the PHB will get you a bonus or advantage on "Ability checks" which I assume doesn't apply to skills or saving throws, or it would say so.
It's as if the rules writers assumed that people would be making ability tests a lot, and so they wrote spells that give you advantage on them etc in different places. Then they added in saving throws and skills afterward and they never came to the realization that they had basically made the ability score test (which were assumed to be something that would come up a lot) obsolete in most cases.
"Skill tests," as you call them, are ability checks. To repeat, all skill checks are ability checks. A Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check is simply a Dexterity check to which you can apply any Sleight of Hand bonuses you might have. A Dexterity (Thieves' Tools) check--whether or not it's supposed to be written that way--is simply a Dexterity check to which you can apply any bonuses you might have with thieves' tools.
The ability check/attack roll/saving throw thing is in 5e because it's been in the game since OD&D and the designers considered it fundamental to the D&D experience--and because it's a very useful distinction to be able to make for a game as combat-focused as D&D.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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There's no such thing as a skill test or skill check. There's ability checks, which sometimes involve a skill, tool, or vehicle proficiency.
Strength checks come up when characters want to break or force something open. Initiative is a dexterity check too. Personally, I use pure intelligence checks to see if a character remembers a past event that's relevant to the current situation.
A bonus to ability checks applies any time you're making an ability check, including when a skill is involved.
A saving throw is something else entirely.
Thanks for the info. I've played so many versions of DnD by now the rules are all mixing together in my head. It makes more sense that all skills are just subcategories of ability checks, with possible bonuses.
They are, and I think that is deliberate.
The core mechanic is: Roll d20 + Ability Modifier + Other Stuff.
"Other Stuff" can include your proficiency bonus, magic item bonuses and penalties, and situational bonus and penalties.
You want to hit something with a big axe? Roll d20 + STR Mod + Proficiency Bonus. You don't know how to use a big axe effectively? Just roll d20 + STR Mod.
You want to persuade the guard to let you in? Roll d20 + CHA Mod + Proficiency Bonus. You haven't got any experience in how to persuade people effectively? Just roll d20 + CHA Mod.
You want to get out of the way of a fireball? Roll d20 + DEX Mod + Proficiency Bonus. You aren't specifically trained in dodging? Just roll d20 + DEX Mod.