...the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. ... Some spells...have more powerful effects when cast at a higher level, as detailed in a spell’s description.
So all spells can be cast at a higher level, some spells have more powerful effects when cast at higher level, all spells assume the higher level for that casting.
Your quote uses the word "some" not "all".
--------
Casting a Spell at a Higher Level
When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts magic missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that magic missile is 2nd level. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into.
Some spells, such as magic missile and cure wounds, have more powerful effects when cast at a higher level, as detailed in a spell's description.
-------
The examples given are spells that have a more powerful effect because they are using a higher level spell slot. The spells able to use a higher slot are specified in the spell description. It doesn't mean ANY or EVERY spell can do so.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Shield is used in the example of using a 2nd level slot to cast a 1st level spell. See the Eldritch Knight description under the heading Spell Slots on page 75 of the PHB
True. The same could also be said of Warlock spells. But that doesn't mean the Shield spell is more powerful. There is nothing in the text giving Shield a better effect.
I’m not saying Shield cast with a 2nd level slot is more powerful but it “assumes the higher level for that casting”. I don’t know how that can be read as anything other than Shield is a 2nd level spell for that casting.
This rule is important for Darkness, Daylight, Counterspell and possibly other spells.
I’m not saying Shield cast with a 2nd level slot is more powerful but it “assumes the higher level for that casting”. I don’t know how that can be read as anything other than Shield is a 2nd level spell for that casting.
This rule is important for Darkness, Daylight, Counterspell and possibly other spells.
No, it's not. It is specifically stated that Darkness CANNOT be upcast to counter Daylight.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
No, it's not. It is specifically stated that Darkness CANNOT be upcast to counter Daylight.
No one is saying that. We're saying it can be upcast to prevent Daylight from dispelling it.
"We're saying it can be upcast to prevent Daylight from dispelling it"
LOL Isn't that literally upcasting it to counter Daylight?
No, the key is the order of events... In this case 1first spell Darkness lvl 4 second spell daylight to dispelled.. In the other case 1st daylight and 2nd Darkness to "dispelled".
I’m not saying Shield cast with a 2nd level slot is more powerful but it “assumes the higher level for that casting”. I don’t know how that can be read as anything other than Shield is a 2nd level spell for that casting.
This rule is important for Darkness, Daylight, Counterspell and possibly other spells.
No, it's not. It is specifically stated that Darkness CANNOT be upcast to counter Daylight.
No it does NOT say that at all.
1) Your quote:
Casting a Spell at a Higher Level
When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting.
Do you have ANY problem understanding the line you quoted? When a spellcaster casts a spell using a higher level spell slot the spell assumes that higher level for that casting. It is plain english. The Players Hand book lists EVERY spell at their BASE level. EVERY spell (except level 9) CAN be cast with a higher level spell slot (do you disagree? Can I cast a shield spell using a 5th level spell slot if I want to?). You CAN upcast ANY spell if you have a higher level spell slot and that spell "ASSUMES THAT HIGHER LEVEL FOR THAT CASTING". Period. The spell may or may not receive additional effects for being upcast but EVERY SPELL can be cast using a higher level spell slot.
2) A spell cast using a higher level spell slot "ASSUMES THAT HIGHER LEVEL FOR THAT CASTING". Is that clear? This means that a fireball cast with a 5th level spell slots IS a 5th level spell. A polymorph cast with a 6th level spell slot IS a 6th level spell. A Shield spell cast with a 7th level spell slot IS a 7th level spell. That is EXACTLY what "ASSUMES THAT HIGHER LEVEL FOR THAT CASTING" means. Do you disagree? What else does "ASSUMES THAT HIGHER LEVEL FOR THAT CASTING" mean? The BASE level of the spell DOES NOT MATTER, the level of the spell is the level of the spell slot used to cast it.
3) Darkness is a spell like any other. It CAN be cast with higher level spell slots. If cast using a higher level spell slot Darkness "ASSUMES THAT HIGHER LEVEL FOR THAT CASTING". A Darkness spell cast using a 4th level spell slot IS a 4th level spell. The BASE level listed in the players handbook is irrelevant.
4) The text of Daylight states:
"If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of darkness created by a spell of 3rd level or lower, the spell that created the darkness is dispelled."
The LEVEL of the spell is controlled by the level of the SPELL SLOT used to cast the spell because it "ASSUMES THAT HIGHER LEVEL FOR THAT CASTING". If Darkness is cast with a 4th level spell slot then Daylight will NOT dispel it BECAUSE it is a 4th level spell. On the other hand, if Darkness was cast using a 3rd level spell slot (perhaps by a 5th level warlock) then it WOULD be dispelled BECAUSE it is only a 3rd level spell.
Similarly, Darkness says "If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled". One interesting side effect of this is that Darkness should be able to dispel a flaming sphere :) unless it is cast using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher.
TL;DR
The bottom line is:
- a spell can be cast using ANY spell slot equal to or greater than the BASE level of the spell
- the LEVEL of the spell is the LEVEL of SPELL SLOT used to cast it because "ASSUMES THAT HIGHER LEVEL FOR THAT CASTING".
- Daylight and Darkness MAY dispel lower level light and darkness spells but the it is LEVEL of the spell when cast not the BASE level listed in the PHB that matters BECAUSE the spell text states that they dispel spells below a certain level and the LEVEL of the spell is determined by the level of spell slot used to cast it.
What you have quoted may be true but you still cannot upcast Darkness to counter Daylight. Darkness only dispels light created by 2nd level spells or lower.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
If for some oddball reason you cast Darkness with a lvl 9 slot, and somebody casts Daylight on a ballbearing and rolls it into your Darkness, the area will be lit up.
In addition, if you wasted a lvl 9 slot to cast Darkness, it would only take a lvl 8 spell to eliminate it.
The spell description for daylight doesn’t actually say how it would interact with a darkness spell of 4th level or higher. Therefore it’s up to the DM how they interact. Personally I would rule that the overlapping area is ambient light conditions.
The spell description for daylight doesn’t actually say how it would interact with a darkness spell of 4th level or higher. Therefore it’s up to the DM how they interact. Personally I would rule that the overlapping area is ambient light conditions.
It doesn't say it in Daylight, it says it in Darkness.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
David42- You are very grumpy. Also incorrect per J. Crawford which is quoted in comments higher up the thread. Mostly I care about the fact that you are being very grumpy in your response. Be nice to fellow D&D players. Everyone is here to have fun.
What you have quoted may be true but you still cannot upcast Darkness to counter Daylight. Darkness only dispels light created by 2nd level spells or lower.
NO ONE in this entire thread has said that you can upcast Darkness to cancel Daylight. All we have been saying is that an upcast 4th level Darkness will NOT be dispelled by Daylight because it is not a Darkness spell of 3rd level or lower.
Similarly, an upcast Darkness spell will NEVER dispel a light causing spell that is cast at 3rd level or higher.
IF you have a darkness spell at 4th level overlapping the area of effect of a Daylight spell of 3rd level ... neither can dispel the other. BOTH spells remain functioning.It is then up to the DM to determine which spell would take precedence since this is NOT specified in the rules.
Neither spell can dispel the other. If you move the objects on which the spells are cast far enough away you will have an area of darkness and one of light. If you move the spells so they overlap, if darkness is level 4 or higher then it can not be dispelled by daylight and since daylight is at least level 3 it can not be dispelled by darkness. SO BOTH spells are still functional.
Does Daylight illuminate the area covered by Darkness? Does Darkness create an area of darkness in the Daylight spell? This is a DM decision since the interaction of these spells cast at higher levels IS NOT SPELLED OUT IN THE RULES. YOU can decide that Daylight always takes precedence (that is a DM call). Another DM might decide that the higher level spell takes precedence and IF they are the same level then Daylight would take precedence (this is just a different DM call). There is NO rule in the players handbook describing the interaction of higher level daylight and darkness spells.
As a DM, I would probably say that Daylight would illuminate an area of Darkness if the spell level was equal to or higher than the area of Darkness. It could NOT dispel it if Darkness was cast at 4th level or higher BUT it would counteract the darkness that was inside the area of effect of the Daylight. However, as I said, THAT is a DM DECISION to make and others would rule it differently. You can say how you might prefer to play it "cannot upcast Darkness to counter Daylight" ... but is your choice, it is not a rule. Darkness can NOT dispel a Daylight spell at any level but it is a DM ruling as to whether Darkness or Daylight would remain in effect if their areas overlap.
The spell description for daylight doesn’t actually say how it would interact with a darkness spell of 4th level or higher. Therefore it’s up to the DM how they interact. Personally I would rule that the overlapping area is ambient light conditions.
It doesn't say it in Daylight, it says it in Darkness.
I’m not sure what you are referring to. Illuminate me.
Are you suggesting that the phrase “nonmagical light can’t illuminate it” implies that magical light can illuminate it? I still think this gives DMs a little wiggle room to rule as they see fit.
i think the real problem we should be talking about is how Darkness and Continual Flame interact. Continual Flame isn’t technically a light spell, it’s a fire spell that sheds light. Perhaps the flame is magical but the light it sheds is not?
My theory is that that the spell name was changed from Continual Light in earlier editions just to eliminate the problem of someone using a Darkness spell to dispel a whole bunch of Continual Flames.
Are you suggesting that the phrase “nonmagical light can’t illuminate it” implies that magical light can illuminate it? I still think this gives DMs a little wiggle room to rule as they see fit.
Light always illuminates darkness; that's how light and darkness work. The darkness spell makes an exception for nonmagical light only.
i think the real problem we should be talking about is how Darkness and Continual Flame interact. Continual Flame isn’t technically a light spell, it’s a fire spell that sheds light. Perhaps the flame is magical but the light it sheds is not?
"If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled." Continual Flame creates light; the flame has brightness equivalent to a torch. It's also magical light, because spells are magic by definition.
Your quote uses the word "some" not "all".
--------
Casting a Spell at a Higher Level
When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts magic missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that magic missile is 2nd level. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into.
Some spells, such as magic missile and cure wounds, have more powerful effects when cast at a higher level, as detailed in a spell's description.
-------
The examples given are spells that have a more powerful effect because they are using a higher level spell slot. The spells able to use a higher slot are specified in the spell description. It doesn't mean ANY or EVERY spell can do so.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
4th level spell shadow of moil the darkness it creates cannot be dispelled by daylight.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Shield is used in the example of using a 2nd level slot to cast a 1st level spell. See the Eldritch Knight description under the heading Spell Slots on page 75 of the PHB
True. The same could also be said of Warlock spells. But that doesn't mean the Shield spell is more powerful. There is nothing in the text giving Shield a better effect.
Just cast sunburst.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I’m not saying Shield cast with a 2nd level slot is more powerful but it “assumes the higher level for that casting”. I don’t know how that can be read as anything other than Shield is a 2nd level spell for that casting.
This rule is important for Darkness, Daylight, Counterspell and possibly other spells.
No, it's not. It is specifically stated that Darkness CANNOT be upcast to counter Daylight.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
No one is saying that. We're saying it can be upcast to prevent Daylight from dispelling it.
"We're saying it can be upcast to prevent Daylight from dispelling it"
LOL Isn't that literally upcasting it to counter Daylight?
No, the key is the order of events... In this case 1first spell Darkness lvl 4 second spell daylight to dispelled.. In the other case 1st daylight and 2nd Darkness to "dispelled".
No it does NOT say that at all.
1) Your quote:
Casting a Spell at a Higher Level
When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting.
Do you have ANY problem understanding the line you quoted? When a spellcaster casts a spell using a higher level spell slot the spell assumes that higher level for that casting. It is plain english. The Players Hand book lists EVERY spell at their BASE level. EVERY spell (except level 9) CAN be cast with a higher level spell slot (do you disagree? Can I cast a shield spell using a 5th level spell slot if I want to?). You CAN upcast ANY spell if you have a higher level spell slot and that spell "ASSUMES THAT HIGHER LEVEL FOR THAT CASTING". Period. The spell may or may not receive additional effects for being upcast but EVERY SPELL can be cast using a higher level spell slot.
2) A spell cast using a higher level spell slot "ASSUMES THAT HIGHER LEVEL FOR THAT CASTING". Is that clear? This means that a fireball cast with a 5th level spell slots IS a 5th level spell. A polymorph cast with a 6th level spell slot IS a 6th level spell. A Shield spell cast with a 7th level spell slot IS a 7th level spell. That is EXACTLY what "ASSUMES THAT HIGHER LEVEL FOR THAT CASTING" means. Do you disagree? What else does "ASSUMES THAT HIGHER LEVEL FOR THAT CASTING" mean? The BASE level of the spell DOES NOT MATTER, the level of the spell is the level of the spell slot used to cast it.
3) Darkness is a spell like any other. It CAN be cast with higher level spell slots. If cast using a higher level spell slot Darkness "ASSUMES THAT HIGHER LEVEL FOR THAT CASTING". A Darkness spell cast using a 4th level spell slot IS a 4th level spell. The BASE level listed in the players handbook is irrelevant.
4) The text of Daylight states:
"If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of darkness created by a spell of 3rd level or lower, the spell that created the darkness is dispelled."
The LEVEL of the spell is controlled by the level of the SPELL SLOT used to cast the spell because it "ASSUMES THAT HIGHER LEVEL FOR THAT CASTING". If Darkness is cast with a 4th level spell slot then Daylight will NOT dispel it BECAUSE it is a 4th level spell. On the other hand, if Darkness was cast using a 3rd level spell slot (perhaps by a 5th level warlock) then it WOULD be dispelled BECAUSE it is only a 3rd level spell.
Similarly, Darkness says "If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled". One interesting side effect of this is that Darkness should be able to dispel a flaming sphere :) unless it is cast using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher.
TL;DR
The bottom line is:
- a spell can be cast using ANY spell slot equal to or greater than the BASE level of the spell
- the LEVEL of the spell is the LEVEL of SPELL SLOT used to cast it because "ASSUMES THAT HIGHER LEVEL FOR THAT CASTING".
- Daylight and Darkness MAY dispel lower level light and darkness spells but the it is LEVEL of the spell when cast not the BASE level listed in the PHB that matters BECAUSE the spell text states that they dispel spells below a certain level and the LEVEL of the spell is determined by the level of spell slot used to cast it.
What you have quoted may be true but you still cannot upcast Darkness to counter Daylight. Darkness only dispels light created by 2nd level spells or lower.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
If for some oddball reason you cast Darkness with a lvl 9 slot, and somebody casts Daylight on a ballbearing and rolls it into your Darkness, the area will be lit up.
In addition, if you wasted a lvl 9 slot to cast Darkness, it would only take a lvl 8 spell to eliminate it.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
The spell description for daylight doesn’t actually say how it would interact with a darkness spell of 4th level or higher. Therefore it’s up to the DM how they interact. Personally I would rule that the overlapping area is ambient light conditions.
It doesn't say it in Daylight, it says it in Darkness.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
David42- You are very grumpy. Also incorrect per J. Crawford which is quoted in comments higher up the thread. Mostly I care about the fact that you are being very grumpy in your response. Be nice to fellow D&D players. Everyone is here to have fun.
NO ONE in this entire thread has said that you can upcast Darkness to cancel Daylight. All we have been saying is that an upcast 4th level Darkness will NOT be dispelled by Daylight because it is not a Darkness spell of 3rd level or lower.
Similarly, an upcast Darkness spell will NEVER dispel a light causing spell that is cast at 3rd level or higher.
IF you have a darkness spell at 4th level overlapping the area of effect of a Daylight spell of 3rd level ... neither can dispel the other. BOTH spells remain functioning.It is then up to the DM to determine which spell would take precedence since this is NOT specified in the rules.
Neither spell can dispel the other. If you move the objects on which the spells are cast far enough away you will have an area of darkness and one of light. If you move the spells so they overlap, if darkness is level 4 or higher then it can not be dispelled by daylight and since daylight is at least level 3 it can not be dispelled by darkness. SO BOTH spells are still functional.
Does Daylight illuminate the area covered by Darkness? Does Darkness create an area of darkness in the Daylight spell? This is a DM decision since the interaction of these spells cast at higher levels IS NOT SPELLED OUT IN THE RULES. YOU can decide that Daylight always takes precedence (that is a DM call). Another DM might decide that the higher level spell takes precedence and IF they are the same level then Daylight would take precedence (this is just a different DM call). There is NO rule in the players handbook describing the interaction of higher level daylight and darkness spells.
As a DM, I would probably say that Daylight would illuminate an area of Darkness if the spell level was equal to or higher than the area of Darkness. It could NOT dispel it if Darkness was cast at 4th level or higher BUT it would counteract the darkness that was inside the area of effect of the Daylight. However, as I said, THAT is a DM DECISION to make and others would rule it differently. You can say how you might prefer to play it "cannot upcast Darkness to counter Daylight" ... but is your choice, it is not a rule. Darkness can NOT dispel a Daylight spell at any level but it is a DM ruling as to whether Darkness or Daylight would remain in effect if their areas overlap.
I’m not sure what you are referring to. Illuminate me.
Are you suggesting that the phrase “nonmagical light can’t illuminate it” implies that magical light can illuminate it? I still think this gives DMs a little wiggle room to rule as they see fit.
i think the real problem we should be talking about is how Darkness and Continual Flame interact. Continual Flame isn’t technically a light spell, it’s a fire spell that sheds light. Perhaps the flame is magical but the light it sheds is not?
My theory is that that the spell name was changed from Continual Light in earlier editions just to eliminate the problem of someone using a Darkness spell to dispel a whole bunch of Continual Flames.
Light always illuminates darkness; that's how light and darkness work. The darkness spell makes an exception for nonmagical light only.
"Light from any magical source can illuminate the area of a darkness spell, but the darkness spell can dispel light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, not light created by a non-spell."
"If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled." Continual Flame creates light; the flame has brightness equivalent to a torch. It's also magical light, because spells are magic by definition.
To recap:
I'm pretty sure that's what I said =)
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
So Darkness dispels Flame Blade and Flaming Sphere? They also produce light.