Both spell say wich levels of the other dispell. My question is about wich one should overrules when you cast these spell at different levels at the overlapping areas.
The rules for Darkness are hard coded. "If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled."
Casting it at a higher level does not change the wording of the spell. Casting it at a higher level will make it harder to use Dispel Magic on or Counterspell on it.
The rules for Daylight say "If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of darkness created by a spell of 3rd level or lower, the spell that created the darkness is dispelled." and are hard coded.
So a 3rd level Daylight spell will dispel a Darkness cast with a 9th level slot.
So a 3rd level Daylight spell will dispel a Darkness cast with a 9th level slot.
A Darkness spell cast with a 9th level slot is a 9th level spell. Daylight only dispels spells of 3rd level or lower. Neither would dispel the other, and Daylight would illuminate the area of Darkness where they overlap.
The rules for Darkness are hard coded. "If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled."
Casting it at a higher level does not change the wording of the spell. Casting it at a higher level will make it harder to use Dispel Magic on or Counterspell on it.
The rules for Daylight say "If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of darkness created by a spell of 3rd level or lower, the spell that created the darkness is dispelled." and are hard coded.
So a 3rd level Daylight spell will dispel a Darkness cast with a 9th level slot.
Dispell it mean "end the effect" that mean spell banish... I do not say that, in your case you cast daylight on an area at level 3 and the 9th lvl darkness on an armor... for me it more logical that when the person is with the darknees came in, the darkness Overrule the daylight spell but do not "dispell it of end it" the daylight spell is active but do not working on the 15 ft of the darkness spell... then the darkness spell leave the area the daylight start to work again... There is a big diference between dispell and overrlue....
And acording to your same example the 3rd level daylight is stoping to work (or dispelling if you want) a 9th lvl darkness spell that in Hard coded "If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of darkness created by a spell of 3rd level or lower, the spell that created the darkness is dispelled." it shouldn't
There is my question what happen.... if daylight can't dispell 4th level darkness and 4th level darkness can't dispell 3rd level daylight... wich one should overrule... cuz one must overrule (and with that do not mean dispell)
In previus edition it was easy the one with more level dispell the one with lower, here cuz the "hard code" it unclear how to proceed
"Can you cast darkness with a higher level slot to end a spell of 3rd level or higher that creates light? No. The darkness spell can dispel only a light-creating spell of 2nd level or lower, no matter what spell slot is used for darkness. Similarly, the daylight spell can dispel only a darkness-creating spell of 3rd level or lower, regardless of the spell slot used."
That doesn't contradict anything I've said. Casting Darkness or Daylight at a higher level doesn't let them dispel higher level spells, but it still makes them higher level spells.
Sorry but you're opinion is directly in conflict with Mike Mearls:
"As written, the darkness spell can't be made more powerful with a higher level slot."
As written and as clarified by Sage Advice above, Darkness can never be made more powerful with a higher level slot. Saying that Light wil only illuminate but not dispel a Darkness spell cast at a higher level is absolutely making it more powerful with a higher level slot. RAW Daylight always dispels Darkness.
Now that being said, if your the DM you can certainly homebrew a change but it will not be RAW.
Sorry but you're opinion is directly in conflict with Mike Mearls:
"As written, the darkness spell can't be made more powerful with a higher level slot."
As written and as clarified by Sage Advice above, Darkness can never be made more powerful with a higher level slot. Saying that Light wil only illuminate but not dispel a Darkness spell cast at a higher level is absolutely making it more powerful with a higher level slot. RAW Daylight always dispels Darkness.
Now that being said, if your the DM you can certainly homebrew a change but it will not be RAW.
It is RAW. A Darkness cast with a level 9 slot is not a level 2 spell, but a level 9 spell. Therefore, Daylight will not dispel it. That's not making the Darkness more "powerful": it still will only dispel light-creating spells of level 2 or lower, not level 9 (its level) or lower, nor will it create a larger area of darkness.
Even if you use a 9th level slot to cast it, it is still in all mechanics a 2nd level spell per Mearls. It does not scale up in any way. Therefore Light still dispels it. Simple really. The only benefit I could see that it gets from a higher level slot is for the purposes of counterspell and dispel magic as this does not benefit the spell mechanically in any way.
Even if you use a 9th level slot to cast it, it is still in all mechanics a 2nd level spell per Mearls. It does not scale up in any way. Therefore Light still dispels it. Simple really. The only benefit I could see that it gets from a higher level slot is for the purposes of counterspell and dispel magic as this does not benefit the spell mechanically in any way.
Yes, the mechanics are the same as the level 2 version, nobody is contesting that. But it is no longer a level 2 spell, but a level 9 spell, and therefore Daylight will not dispel it. A Shield cast with a level 9 slot is mechanically identical to one cast with a level 1 slot, but it is a level 9 spell. This is explicit in the rules as written. Daylight does not dispel darkness-creating spells that are able to be cast as level 3 or lower spells, but rather level 3 or lower spells.
I haven't found the Mearls quote you mention, by the way. In this thread there is a link to a Crawford quote specifying you can't up-cast a Darkness to dispel a light-creating spell higher than level 2. Nobody is contesting that. What is being contested is whether a spell can be up-cast to prevent it from being dispelled by other spells, which, by RAW, it can.
The problem I have with Darkness and Daylight is that Daylight will dispel Darkness cast at 3rd level or lower if they have any overlap whatsoever. However, if you cast the Darkness spell on an object and cover it with an opaque container, the areas of effect can’t overlap so the Darkness spell would not be dispelled no matter how close the center points of the spells are. Also, both spells can be blocked by opaque containers so they are emanating from a point. Why should the Darkness spell be dispelled if the center hasn’t even been touched by the light created by the Daylight spell. I guess you can argue that the darkness and light interact in a way short-circuits the lesser spell but I would rule that the lesser spell is suppressed when areas overlap and the lesser spell is dispelled if the point of origins touch. I know that isn’t RAW but it makes more sense to me.
Oh, that's Crawford, not Mearls. And like I said, it refers to the opposite of what we're arguing about: it says you can't cast Darkness with a higher level slot to dispel a light-creating spell higher than level 2 (which Daylight, for example, will always be, since it requires a level 3 slot at minimum). I'm not contesting that. I'm arguing that Darkness can't dispel a Continual Flame that was cast using a level 3 slot. (Literally, I've been mentioning Daylight not being able to dispel a Darkness cast with a level 9 slot, but it's the exact same argument.) You can't up-cast either of those spells to dispel higher level spells. That's clear, it's RAW, and Jeremy Crawford re-stated it on Twitter (and compiled on the Sage Advice site). But neither the rules as written, nor the quote from the game designer, ever indicate that the reverse is true: they don't say you can't "protect" a lower level spell from being dispelled by the light/darkness creating spells by up-casting it. In fact, the rules as written do say that you can, although indirectly. Specifically, they say it when you consider both rules in question: a) the fact that Darkness can only dispel level 2 or lower spells (and Daylight can dispel only level 3 or lower spells), and b) the fact that when you cast a spell, the spell's level becomes the level of the slot used to cast it. Neither of those are creative interpretations of the rules, nor house rules, nor deductions based on perceived intent of the rules. They're clear, straightforward, hard rules.
Even if you use a 9th level slot to cast it, it is still in all mechanics a 2nd level spell per Mearls. It does not scale up in any way. Therefore Light still dispels it. Simple really. The only benefit I could see that it gets from a higher level slot is for the purposes of counterspell and dispel magic as this does not benefit the spell mechanically in any way.
Daylight doesn't dispel 4th level Darkness for the exact same reason the spell gets harder to dispel with Dispel Magic or counter with Counterspell: it's a 4th level spell. You can't claim it's a 2nd level spell when it overlaps Daylight but a 4th level spell when it's targeted by Dispel Magic.
When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts magic missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that magic missile is 2nd level. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into.
Some spells, such as magic missile and cure wounds, have more powerful effects when cast at a higher level, as detailed in a spell's description.
Here's a Sage Advice Compendium answer that explicitly mentions increasing the level of a spell:
What level is a spell if you cast it without a spell slot?
Such a spell is cast at its lowest possible level, which is the level that appears near the top of its description. Unless you have a special ability that says otherwise, the only way to increase the level of a spell is to expend a higher-level spell slot when you cast it.
When Jeremy says Darkness can't be made more powerful at higher levels he's saying its effects don't get more powerful like Cure Wounds' does. There is no "At higher levels:" in its rules. It's still a higher level spell.
Even if you use a 9th level slot to cast it, it is still in all mechanics a 2nd level spell per Mearls. It does not scale up in any way. Therefore Light still dispels it. Simple really. The only benefit I could see that it gets from a higher level slot is for the purposes of counterspell and dispel magic as this does not benefit the spell mechanically in any way.
Daylight doesn't dispel 4th level Darkness for the exact same reason the spell gets harder to dispel with Dispel Magic or counter with Counterspell: it's a 4th level spell. You can't claim it's a 2nd level spell when it overlaps Daylight but a 4th level spell when it's targeted by Dispel Magic.
Darkness and Daylight have a spell effect which dispels lower level dark and light respectively as a function of their mechanic. Crawford has stated that the mechanic itself cannot be made more powerful by a higher level slot. Dispel Magic & Counterspell do not act against the mechanics of the spell. Dispel Magic does not illuminate away the darkness like a light spell. Dispel Magic & Counterspell cause the magic of the spell itself to cease to function. Both Dispel Magic & Counterspell have specific mechanics to allow them to be scaled up to turn off the function of higher spell slot spells. Darkness & Daylight explicitly do not. That is why Darkness cast at say 5th level absolutely is a 2nd level spell when it overlaps Daylight but is a 5th level spell when it's targeted by Dispel Magic. You cannot make the darkness more powerful than light but you can make the spell more powerful than the counterspell. You are comparing apples and tomatoes. Both fruit, look kind of the same but totally different.
Even if you use a 9th level slot to cast it, it is still in all mechanics a 2nd level spell per Mearls. It does not scale up in any way. Therefore Light still dispels it. Simple really. The only benefit I could see that it gets from a higher level slot is for the purposes of counterspell and dispel magic as this does not benefit the spell mechanically in any way.
Daylight doesn't dispel 4th level Darkness for the exact same reason the spell gets harder to dispel with Dispel Magic or counter with Counterspell: it's a 4th level spell. You can't claim it's a 2nd level spell when it overlaps Daylight but a 4th level spell when it's targeted by Dispel Magic.
Darkness and Daylight have a spell effect which dispels lower level dark and light respectively as a function of their mechanic. Crawford has stated that the mechanic itself cannot be made more powerful by a higher level slot. Dispel Magic & Counterspell do not act against the mechanics of the spell. Dispel Magic does not illuminate away the darkness like a light spell. Dispel Magic & Counterspell cause the magic of the spell itself to cease to function. Both Dispel Magic & Counterspell have specific mechanics to allow them to be scaled up to turn off the function of higher spell slot spells. Darkness & Daylight explicitly do not. That is why Darkness cast at say 5th level absolutely is a 2nd level spell when it overlaps Daylight but is a 5th level spell when it's targeted by Dispel Magic. You cannot make the darkness more powerful than light but you can make the spell more powerful than the counterspell. You are comparing apples and tomatoes. Both fruit, look kind of the same but totally different.
Last I'll post on the subject, since we just seem to be running around in circles:
Jeremy Crawford did state that the spell can't be made more powerful by using a higher level slot. That is not being contested. The spell is just as powerful at what it does (creating darkness, dispelling light-creating spells) regardless of what slot was used to cast it. Darkness cast with a level 9 slot can only dispel light-creating spells of level 2 or under. That is not being contested. Darkness cast with a level 9 slot is a level 9 spell for all intents and purposes, not "for all purposes except being dispelled by Daylight". There is no exclusion in the spellcasting rules, in the rules of the Darkness spell, in the rules of the Daylight, or, in fact, anywhere else in the rules, to the general rule that a spell's level becomes the level of the slot used to cast it, when it is cast using a slot.
I don't mean this to be adversarial, but it is you who is comparing apples and tomatoes: the level of the spell in the spell listing is not always the spell of the level when cast. Those are two different, although similar, values. It is a natural mistake, and one that I have made, so I understand the point of view, but it is an error nonetheless.
No worries man. D&D doesn't really require either of us to be right as it's all DM's discretion lol. I can see your point of view, I just believe differently based on the very specific wording of the spells in question and the clarifying statements by Crawford. In this case for me, the specific rule of the wording Darkness & Daylight and Crawfords further specific statement is a case of "Specific overrules General" with casting spells at a higher level being the general rule which is being overrode.
Wasn't trying to be adversarial so I hope it didn't come off that way. I would never flame a fellow D&D fan :)
Funny debate considering there is no rule for casting darkness or daylight with a higher spell slot. Spells say in their description if you can and what the effect will be. Neither spell states higher level casting.
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...the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. ... Some spells...have more powerful effects when cast at a higher level, as detailed in a spell’s description.
So all spells can be cast at a higher level, some spells have more powerful effects when cast at higher level, all spells assume the higher level for that casting.
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Both spell say wich levels of the other dispell. My question is about wich one should overrules when you cast these spell at different levels at the overlapping areas.
The rules for Darkness are hard coded. "If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled."
Casting it at a higher level does not change the wording of the spell. Casting it at a higher level will make it harder to use Dispel Magic on or Counterspell on it.
The rules for Daylight say "If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of darkness created by a spell of 3rd level or lower, the spell that created the darkness is dispelled." and are hard coded.
So a 3rd level Daylight spell will dispel a Darkness cast with a 9th level slot.
Sage Advice: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/11/04/no-light-in-the-darkness/
A Darkness spell cast with a 9th level slot is a 9th level spell. Daylight only dispels spells of 3rd level or lower. Neither would dispel the other, and Daylight would illuminate the area of Darkness where they overlap.
The rules for Darkness are hard coded. "If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled."
Casting it at a higher level does not change the wording of the spell. Casting it at a higher level will make it harder to use Dispel Magic on or Counterspell on it.
The rules for Daylight say "If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of darkness created by a spell of 3rd level or lower, the spell that created the darkness is dispelled." and are hard coded.
So a 3rd level Daylight spell will dispel a Darkness cast with a 9th level slot.
Sage Advice: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/11/04/no-light-in-the-darkness/
Dispell it mean "end the effect" that mean spell banish... I do not say that, in your case you cast daylight on an area at level 3 and the 9th lvl darkness on an armor... for me it more logical that when the person is with the darknees came in, the darkness Overrule the daylight spell but do not "dispell it of end it" the daylight spell is active but do not working on the 15 ft of the darkness spell... then the darkness spell leave the area the daylight start to work again... There is a big diference between dispell and overrlue....
And acording to your same example the 3rd level daylight is stoping to work (or dispelling if you want) a 9th lvl darkness spell that in Hard coded "If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of darkness created by a spell of 3rd level or lower, the spell that created the darkness is dispelled." it shouldn't
There is my question what happen.... if daylight can't dispell 4th level darkness and 4th level darkness can't dispell 3rd level daylight... wich one should overrule... cuz one must overrule (and with that do not mean dispell)
In previus edition it was easy the one with more level dispell the one with lower, here cuz the "hard code" it unclear how to proceed
Here's the short version:
Daylight will dispel 2nd and 3rd level Darkness, and illuminate 4th+ level Darkness.
Negative. Read the http://dnd.wizards.com/sage-advice-compendium
The Sage Advice Compendium, p13.
"Can you cast darkness with a higher level slot to end a spell of 3rd level or higher that creates light?
No. The darkness spell can dispel only a light-creating spell of 2nd level or lower, no matter what spell slot is used for darkness. Similarly, the daylight spell can dispel only a darkness-creating spell of 3rd level or lower, regardless of the spell slot used."
That doesn't contradict anything I've said. Casting Darkness or Daylight at a higher level doesn't let them dispel higher level spells, but it still makes them higher level spells.
Sorry but you're opinion is directly in conflict with Mike Mearls:
"As written, the darkness spell can't be made more powerful with a higher level slot."
As written and as clarified by Sage Advice above, Darkness can never be made more powerful with a higher level slot. Saying that Light wil only illuminate but not dispel a Darkness spell cast at a higher level is absolutely making it more powerful with a higher level slot. RAW Daylight always dispels Darkness.
Now that being said, if your the DM you can certainly homebrew a change but it will not be RAW.
It is RAW. A Darkness cast with a level 9 slot is not a level 2 spell, but a level 9 spell. Therefore, Daylight will not dispel it. That's not making the Darkness more "powerful": it still will only dispel light-creating spells of level 2 or lower, not level 9 (its level) or lower, nor will it create a larger area of darkness.
Even if you use a 9th level slot to cast it, it is still in all mechanics a 2nd level spell per Mearls. It does not scale up in any way. Therefore Light still dispels it. Simple really. The only benefit I could see that it gets from a higher level slot is for the purposes of counterspell and dispel magic as this does not benefit the spell mechanically in any way.
Yes, the mechanics are the same as the level 2 version, nobody is contesting that. But it is no longer a level 2 spell, but a level 9 spell, and therefore Daylight will not dispel it. A Shield cast with a level 9 slot is mechanically identical to one cast with a level 1 slot, but it is a level 9 spell. This is explicit in the rules as written. Daylight does not dispel darkness-creating spells that are able to be cast as level 3 or lower spells, but rather level 3 or lower spells.
I haven't found the Mearls quote you mention, by the way. In this thread there is a link to a Crawford quote specifying you can't up-cast a Darkness to dispel a light-creating spell higher than level 2. Nobody is contesting that. What is being contested is whether a spell can be up-cast to prevent it from being dispelled by other spells, which, by RAW, it can.
The problem I have with Darkness and Daylight is that Daylight will dispel Darkness cast at 3rd level or lower if they have any overlap whatsoever. However, if you cast the Darkness spell on an object and cover it with an opaque container, the areas of effect can’t overlap so the Darkness spell would not be dispelled no matter how close the center points of the spells are. Also, both spells can be blocked by opaque containers so they are emanating from a point. Why should the Darkness spell be dispelled if the center hasn’t even been touched by the light created by the Daylight spell. I guess you can argue that the darkness and light interact in a way short-circuits the lesser spell but I would rule that the lesser spell is suppressed when areas overlap and the lesser spell is dispelled if the point of origins touch. I know that isn’t RAW but it makes more sense to me.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/11/04/no-light-in-the-darkness/
Here is the Mearls quote.
Oh, that's Crawford, not Mearls. And like I said, it refers to the opposite of what we're arguing about: it says you can't cast Darkness with a higher level slot to dispel a light-creating spell higher than level 2 (which Daylight, for example, will always be, since it requires a level 3 slot at minimum). I'm not contesting that. I'm arguing that Darkness can't dispel a Continual Flame that was cast using a level 3 slot. (Literally, I've been mentioning Daylight not being able to dispel a Darkness cast with a level 9 slot, but it's the exact same argument.) You can't up-cast either of those spells to dispel higher level spells. That's clear, it's RAW, and Jeremy Crawford re-stated it on Twitter (and compiled on the Sage Advice site). But neither the rules as written, nor the quote from the game designer, ever indicate that the reverse is true: they don't say you can't "protect" a lower level spell from being dispelled by the light/darkness creating spells by up-casting it. In fact, the rules as written do say that you can, although indirectly. Specifically, they say it when you consider both rules in question: a) the fact that Darkness can only dispel level 2 or lower spells (and Daylight can dispel only level 3 or lower spells), and b) the fact that when you cast a spell, the spell's level becomes the level of the slot used to cast it. Neither of those are creative interpretations of the rules, nor house rules, nor deductions based on perceived intent of the rules. They're clear, straightforward, hard rules.
Daylight doesn't dispel 4th level Darkness for the exact same reason the spell gets harder to dispel with Dispel Magic or counter with Counterspell: it's a 4th level spell. You can't claim it's a 2nd level spell when it overlaps Daylight but a 4th level spell when it's targeted by Dispel Magic.
Here it is in the Spellcasting rules:
Here's Jeremy Crawford saying the same thing:
"Every spell has a level. Normally that level changes only if you cast the spell with a higher level spell slot."
"It won't work, since that fireball is 7th level. The level of a spell matches the level of the slot used to cast it (PH, 201)."
Here's a Sage Advice Compendium answer that explicitly mentions increasing the level of a spell:
When Jeremy says Darkness can't be made more powerful at higher levels he's saying its effects don't get more powerful like Cure Wounds' does. There is no "At higher levels:" in its rules. It's still a higher level spell.
Darkness and Daylight have a spell effect which dispels lower level dark and light respectively as a function of their mechanic. Crawford has stated that the mechanic itself cannot be made more powerful by a higher level slot. Dispel Magic & Counterspell do not act against the mechanics of the spell. Dispel Magic does not illuminate away the darkness like a light spell. Dispel Magic & Counterspell cause the magic of the spell itself to cease to function. Both Dispel Magic & Counterspell have specific mechanics to allow them to be scaled up to turn off the function of higher spell slot spells. Darkness & Daylight explicitly do not. That is why Darkness cast at say 5th level absolutely is a 2nd level spell when it overlaps Daylight but is a 5th level spell when it's targeted by Dispel Magic. You cannot make the darkness more powerful than light but you can make the spell more powerful than the counterspell. You are comparing apples and tomatoes. Both fruit, look kind of the same but totally different.
Last I'll post on the subject, since we just seem to be running around in circles:
Jeremy Crawford did state that the spell can't be made more powerful by using a higher level slot. That is not being contested. The spell is just as powerful at what it does (creating darkness, dispelling light-creating spells) regardless of what slot was used to cast it. Darkness cast with a level 9 slot can only dispel light-creating spells of level 2 or under. That is not being contested. Darkness cast with a level 9 slot is a level 9 spell for all intents and purposes, not "for all purposes except being dispelled by Daylight". There is no exclusion in the spellcasting rules, in the rules of the Darkness spell, in the rules of the Daylight, or, in fact, anywhere else in the rules, to the general rule that a spell's level becomes the level of the slot used to cast it, when it is cast using a slot.
I don't mean this to be adversarial, but it is you who is comparing apples and tomatoes: the level of the spell in the spell listing is not always the spell of the level when cast. Those are two different, although similar, values. It is a natural mistake, and one that I have made, so I understand the point of view, but it is an error nonetheless.
No worries man. D&D doesn't really require either of us to be right as it's all DM's discretion lol. I can see your point of view, I just believe differently based on the very specific wording of the spells in question and the clarifying statements by Crawford. In this case for me, the specific rule of the wording Darkness & Daylight and Crawfords further specific statement is a case of "Specific overrules General" with casting spells at a higher level being the general rule which is being overrode.
Wasn't trying to be adversarial so I hope it didn't come off that way. I would never flame a fellow D&D fan :)
Funny debate considering there is no rule for casting darkness or daylight with a higher spell slot. Spells say in their description if you can and what the effect will be. Neither spell states higher level casting.
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See Casting a Spell at a Higher Level PHB p. 201.
...the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. ... Some spells...have more powerful effects when cast at a higher level, as detailed in a spell’s description.
So all spells can be cast at a higher level, some spells have more powerful effects when cast at higher level, all spells assume the higher level for that casting.