You asked why it should be roll once. The answer being because technically speaking, RAW, that’s what’s supposed to happen. 🤷♂️ I don’t make the rules, I just know them. Most people don’t follow RAW on Magic Missile. But that is technically RAW.
At the end of the day, Magic Missile is a weird spell that doesn't follow the pattern of rules for either AoE spells or for targeted spells. It pulls some of each and becomes its own thingamajig. Which is incredibly frustrating.
Hey, sorry, just stumbled upon this thread, I know I am a couple months late, but I was hoping to perhaps simplify this discussion a little.
If a fighter uses the attack action with the extra attack feature, thereby allowing two to four attacks, does each attack that hits cause its own concentration check? I would certainly think so. I know that the darts from Magic Missile hit simultaneously, but if you think about the fact that combat rounds are six seconds of in game time, and the four attacks are not the only things happening in those six seconds, I would bet those four sword stabs would feel pretty simultaneous to whomever was on the receiving end of them. I say that each dart causes its own concentration check.
Also, I do not see how the darts hitting simultaneously in any way translates to each of them dealing the same damage. Simultaneously only means they strike at the same time. Fireball and every other area of effect spell that I can recall use the wording, in some form, "each target in the area takes xdy+z damage". Magic Missile reads "A dart deals 1d4+1 damage to its target". Therefore each dart deals its own damage. If a ranger shoots a target with two arrows, would you roll the damage once, and use it for both arrows?
Also, I do not see how the darts hitting simultaneously in any way translates to each of them dealing the same damage. Simultaneously only means they strike at the same time. Fireball and every other area of effect spell that I can recall use the wording, in some form, "each target in the area takes xdy+z damage". Magic Missile reads "A dart deals 1d4+1 damage to its target". Therefore each dart deals its own damage. If a ranger shoots a target with two arrows, would you roll the damage once, and use it for both arrows?
The spell wording you mentioned is not the important part, only the inclusion of the word “simultaneously” in a spell capable of damaging multiple creatures is the relevant part. All darts technically do the same damage because of this section in the “Damage and Healing” section of the rules:
Each weapon, spell, and harmful monster ability specifies the damage it deals. You roll the damage die or dice, add any modifiers, and apply the damage to your target. Magic weapons, special abilities, and other factors can grant a bonus to damage.
With a penalty, it is possible to deal 0 damage, but never negative damage.
When attacking with a weapon, you add your ability modifier--the same modifier used for the attack roll--to the damage. A spell tells you which dice to roll for damage and whether to add any modifiers.
If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them. For example, when a wizard casts fireball or a cleric casts flame strike, the spell's damage is rolled once for all creatures caught in the blast.
It's ok, everybody is going to roll it the way they want to. When I finally get into a Sposta game I'm going to roll 1d6 for my fireball and multiply it by 8 ;)
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
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"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
It's ok, everybody is going to roll it the way they want to. When I finally get into a Sposta game I'm going to roll 1d6 for my fireball and multiply it by 8 ;)
No, you would roll 8d6 because that’s how that one works. You roll 8d6 and the same damage applies to all creatures hit by that Fireball. For Magic Missile you will roll 1d4+1 and the same damage applies to all darts.
It's ok, everybody is going to roll it the way they want to. When I finally get into a Sposta game I'm going to roll 1d6 for my fireball and multiply it by 8 ;)
No, you would roll 8d6 because that’s how that one works. You roll 8d6 and the same damage applies to all creatures hit by that Fireball. For Magic Missile you will roll 1d4+1 and the same damage applies to all darts.
According to your interpretation of that rule, if all the darts are directed at the same target then you would roll damage separately for each dart?
Because of the word “simultaneously” it therefore technically follows the same rules that govern AoEs like Fireball.
wouldn't that mean 1 concentration check instead of multiple? if two darts slam into my chest at exactly the same time, it's one distracting event. like the difference between getting stabbed with a dagger or a greatsword. i think you can argue it's one event and one concentration test.
Because of the word “simultaneously” it therefore technically follows the same rules that govern AoEs like Fireball.
wouldn't that mean 1 concentration check instead of multiple? if two darts slam into my chest at exactly the same time, it's one distracting event. like the difference between getting stabbed with a dagger or a greatsword. i think you can argue it's one event and one concentration test.
Because even though they all hit simultaneously they still count as multiple hits.
It's ok, everybody is going to roll it the way they want to. When I finally get into a Sposta game I'm going to roll 1d6 for my fireball and multiply it by 8 ;)
No, you would roll 8d6 because that’s how that one works. You roll 8d6 and the same damage applies to all creatures hit by that Fireball. For Magic Missile you will roll 1d4+1 and the same damage applies to all darts.
According to your interpretation of that rule, if all the darts are directed at the same target then you would roll damage separately for each dart?
It isn’t “my interpretation,” and apparently not since the spell is capable of hitting multiple targets. 🤷♂️:
It's ok, everybody is going to roll it the way they want to. When I finally get into a Sposta game I'm going to roll 1d6 for my fireball and multiply it by 8 ;)
No, you would roll 8d6 because that’s how that one works. You roll 8d6 and the same damage applies to all creatures hit by that Fireball. For Magic Missile you will roll 1d4+1 and the same damage applies to all darts.
According to your interpretation of that rule, if all the darts are directed at the same target then you would roll damage separately for each dart?
Fireball literally says to roll 8d6, not 1d6 for 8 creatures or per creature hit with the spell. Magic Missile says to roll 1d4+1. The simultaneous nature means that you roll that once and apply it to each creature affected by a bolt, with multiple bolts on one creature stacking because you explicitly can target a creature multiple times.
Crawford is on record saying that either version of the roll for MM is fine. Rolling once is better for rolls of 3 and 4, since those are above average and rolling for each is better for a first roll of 1 or 2 since they are below average. The biggest difference is +-1.5. As such, do whatever is more fun for the table. On the other hand, if you do average damage for every attack, it doesn't matter since it will always be the same damage.
Crawford is on record saying that either version of the roll for MM is fine. Rolling once is better for rolls of 3 and 4, since those are above average and rolling for each is better for a first roll of 1 or 2 since they are below average. The biggest difference is +-1.5. As such, do whatever is more fun for the table. On the other hand, if you do average damage for every attack, it doesn't matter since it will always be the same damage.
uh, either way you pick, i'm firmly in the camp that you'd need to declare your approach before you roll....not see what your first roll is and then decide what approach today. i don't agree with this at all.
Crawford is on record saying that either version of the roll for MM is fine. Rolling once is better for rolls of 3 and 4, since those are above average and rolling for each is better for a first roll of 1 or 2 since they are below average. The biggest difference is +-1.5. As such, do whatever is more fun for the table. On the other hand, if you do average damage for every attack, it doesn't matter since it will always be the same damage.
uh, either way you pick, i'm firmly in the camp that you'd need to declare your approach before you roll....not see what your first roll is and then decide what approach today. i don't agree with this at all.
As far as I’m concerned the method would have to be decided for the entire group in advance and applied universally by all.
Crawford is on record saying that either version of the roll for MM is fine. Rolling once is better for rolls of 3 and 4, since those are above average and rolling for each is better for a first roll of 1 or 2 since they are below average. The biggest difference is +-1.5. As such, do whatever is more fun for the table. On the other hand, if you do average damage for every attack, it doesn't matter since it will always be the same damage.
uh, either way you pick, i'm firmly in the camp that you'd need to declare your approach before you roll....not see what your first roll is and then decide what approach today. i don't agree with this at all.
I wasn't clear enough. I wasn't suggesting that you could choose based on your first roll. I was merely pointing out that each way has a benefit depending on what the initial roll would have been and that there isn't a lot of variance, particularly with a level 1 slot. The style the group uses should be established during session zero or once someone takes MM.
Either the magic missiles do different damage each and roll concentration for each or they all do the same damage and you only get one concentration roll.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
If you value SageAdvice, Jeremy Crawford has explicitly said that Magic Missile is one damage roll, and concentration is rolled for each source of damage. One check for each dart.
so if a mage gets hit by a swarm of insects....is that 10 concentration checks? each insect in the swarm is a source of damage.
No, a "Swarm" is a singular creature according to the rules. The swarm makes a single bite attack, ergo, a single source. Each magic missile dart would have a separate attack roll, were it not for the peculiarity of Magic Missile as a spell.
so if a mage gets hit by a swarm of insects....is that 10 concentration checks? each insect in the swarm is a source of damage.
No, because the entire swarm only does 1 hit.
imo, conceptually its the same as magic missile...in one you have several bugs doing damage to you simultaneously, the other you have several darts doing damage to you simultaneously.
EXACTLY: "It doesn't matter; you choose."
You want a pair of lvl 5 PCs one-shotting demiliches in your game, /shrug
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
You asked why it should be roll once. The answer being because technically speaking, RAW, that’s what’s supposed to happen. 🤷♂️ I don’t make the rules, I just know them. Most people don’t follow RAW on Magic Missile. But that is technically RAW.
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When you DMing, I wanna play a wizard in your campaign =)
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
At the end of the day, Magic Missile is a weird spell that doesn't follow the pattern of rules for either AoE spells or for targeted spells. It pulls some of each and becomes its own thingamajig. Which is incredibly frustrating.
Hey, sorry, just stumbled upon this thread, I know I am a couple months late, but I was hoping to perhaps simplify this discussion a little.
If a fighter uses the attack action with the extra attack feature, thereby allowing two to four attacks, does each attack that hits cause its own concentration check? I would certainly think so. I know that the darts from Magic Missile hit simultaneously, but if you think about the fact that combat rounds are six seconds of in game time, and the four attacks are not the only things happening in those six seconds, I would bet those four sword stabs would feel pretty simultaneous to whomever was on the receiving end of them. I say that each dart causes its own concentration check.
Also, I do not see how the darts hitting simultaneously in any way translates to each of them dealing the same damage. Simultaneously only means they strike at the same time. Fireball and every other area of effect spell that I can recall use the wording, in some form, "each target in the area takes xdy+z damage". Magic Missile reads "A dart deals 1d4+1 damage to its target". Therefore each dart deals its own damage. If a ranger shoots a target with two arrows, would you roll the damage once, and use it for both arrows?
The spell wording you mentioned is not the important part, only the inclusion of the word “simultaneously” in a spell capable of damaging multiple creatures is the relevant part. All darts technically do the same damage because of this section in the “Damage and Healing” section of the rules:
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It's ok, everybody is going to roll it the way they want to. When I finally get into a Sposta game I'm going to roll 1d6 for my fireball and multiply it by 8 ;)
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
No, you would roll 8d6 because that’s how that one works. You roll 8d6 and the same damage applies to all creatures hit by that Fireball. For Magic Missile you will roll 1d4+1 and the same damage applies to all darts.
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According to your interpretation of that rule, if all the darts are directed at the same target then you would roll damage separately for each dart?
wouldn't that mean 1 concentration check instead of multiple? if two darts slam into my chest at exactly the same time, it's one distracting event. like the difference between getting stabbed with a dagger or a greatsword. i think you can argue it's one event and one concentration test.
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Because even though they all hit simultaneously they still count as multiple hits.
It isn’t “my interpretation,” and apparently not since the spell is capable of hitting multiple targets. 🤷♂️:
https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/774030989894955008?lang=en
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wizardslaboratory.com/magic-missile-your-playing-it-wrong/amp/
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/09/dd-magic-missile-mastery-how-to-explode-anyone.html
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Fireball literally says to roll 8d6, not 1d6 for 8 creatures or per creature hit with the spell. Magic Missile says to roll 1d4+1. The simultaneous nature means that you roll that once and apply it to each creature affected by a bolt, with multiple bolts on one creature stacking because you explicitly can target a creature multiple times.
Crawford is on record saying that either version of the roll for MM is fine. Rolling once is better for rolls of 3 and 4, since those are above average and rolling for each is better for a first roll of 1 or 2 since they are below average. The biggest difference is +-1.5. As such, do whatever is more fun for the table. On the other hand, if you do average damage for every attack, it doesn't matter since it will always be the same damage.
uh, either way you pick, i'm firmly in the camp that you'd need to declare your approach before you roll....not see what your first roll is and then decide what approach today. i don't agree with this at all.
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As far as I’m concerned the method would have to be decided for the entire group in advance and applied universally by all.
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I wasn't clear enough. I wasn't suggesting that you could choose based on your first roll. I was merely pointing out that each way has a benefit depending on what the initial roll would have been and that there isn't a lot of variance, particularly with a level 1 slot. The style the group uses should be established during session zero or once someone takes MM.
You can't have it both ways.
Either the magic missiles do different damage each and roll concentration for each or they all do the same damage and you only get one concentration roll.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
If you value SageAdvice, Jeremy Crawford has explicitly said that Magic Missile is one damage roll, and concentration is rolled for each source of damage. One check for each dart.
No, because the entire swarm only does 1 hit.
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No, a "Swarm" is a singular creature according to the rules. The swarm makes a single bite attack, ergo, a single source. Each magic missile dart would have a separate attack roll, were it not for the peculiarity of Magic Missile as a spell.
imo, conceptually its the same as magic missile...in one you have several bugs doing damage to you simultaneously, the other you have several darts doing damage to you simultaneously.
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