Create or Destroy Water creates 10 gallons of water which isn’t very much and it’s a 1st level spell. It would take a lot of castings to fill a 5’x5’x5’ pit with water. Shape Water manipulates existing water, it doesn’t create water.
93.5 castings to be precise. A max level caster can produce 890 gallons by upcasting with all their slots. Only 45 gallons short.
I am suddenly very impressed with the amount of water Shape water can move.
I am always glad when someone does Fantasy Math.
So you can move 5'x'5'x5' of water with shape water at 5ft per 6seconds or 50ft per minute of continuous casting. (or concentration? I guess.) Also, this is me assuming you can make a cube of water and "roll" it to a different area.
You could even make a small stream or creak flow the wrong way, damming it up until it overflows the 5ft cube area. Which would obviously depend on the speed and volume of the flow.
This Cantrip is surprisingly powerful. Even within the written rules.
Can one make an air pocket? Like move water out of the way and then around a 5' area. Like a diving bell of sorts.
Or make a gap in a big river while crossing?
The more I think about it the more questions I have.
Usr3773a, control water does let you part a (not particularly deep) river, and then slam it on charioteers that follow you. This does not make the PHB a bible.
Create or Destroy Water creates 10 gallons of water which isn’t very much and it’s a 1st level spell. It would take a lot of castings to fill a 5’x5’x5’ pit with water. Shape Water manipulates existing water, it doesn’t create water.
93.5 castings to be precise. A max level caster can produce 890 gallons by upcasting with all their slots. Only 45 gallons short.
I am suddenly very impressed with the amount of water Shape water can move.
Can one make an air pocket? Like move water out of the way and then around a 5' area. Like a diving bell of sorts.
Or make a gap in a big river while crossing?
The more I think about it the more questions I have.
You can make a pocket but it would instantly fill up if it is in a larger body of water or in a river.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
I guess the air pocket/flowing water question revolves around whether you read "area of water" as meaning the specific molecules of water within the 5 foot square at the moment of casting, or as any and all water that enters the effected area during the round. If its the former, the spell is useful for bringing a cube of water/ice to a new location but not really that helpful in removing water from even pretty tiny creeks. If the latter, then it can be used to do cool things like create diving bells, cross rivers, stop you from getting swept downstream, stay dry in the rain, etc. If I was DMing I'd definitely pick the latter, especially because "chang[ing] the flow of the water as you direct" doesn't make much sense if the spell doesn't effect all water flowing through the space over the round.
The combat cantrips are all very cut and dry: cast this, and it has x to hit bonus/forces x save, and does y damage. The non-combat fluff cantrips are incredibly important to making an a caster "feel" like an elementalist, but are necessarily a little more vague in precise mechanics, since they're designed to be used in creative situations. If a DM always insists upon the most literal and limited reading possible, it becomes very unlikely that the character will really get the chance to do anything "cool" with them, and they essentially become never-picks. Like, if you have a water elementalist in the party, and they realize that they can't part a river for the group to walk through and can't save someone from drowning and can't even stop their sand castle from being swept away by waves, despite having "wasted" a cantrip slot on the ability to control water? They're going to feel like you're singling them out and telling them they shouldn't have picked that character in the first place.
Why couldn't the target just move their head out of the floating bubble of water? Nothing in Shape Water says you can make water adhere to/follow things around, nor hold creatures in place. Seems like the target would just walk away from the bubble.
Yes, I do agree that it shouldn't be used to drown anything other than the most helpless of opponents. Nothing in the spell implies the ability to make the moved water "stick" to a target's head, even if you form a globe in their space. But if a caster wanted to spend their round in combat causing a water globe to form... I'd certainly think it would be reasonable to have that cause an enemy caster to make a concentration save, or to hand out advantage to an ally's next attack or something.
Yes I know some of these ideas might be considered a little dark, but it's either me or them and it's not gonna be me
1) Now as far as accessing water. Does it have to be pure water, or could it be mixed in something. IE, can I pull it out of someone's beer (BITTER BEER FACE!)
2) if yes to #1, could we in theory pull the water of an enemies body if they are bleeding, or from another source (mud)
3) It says you can't freeze the water if someone is in it, BUT what if you moved a large enough quantity of it in a spinning ball into someones mouth, could I freeze it then so it's throat is sealed?
4) I know you can animate it, so could you make it a spinning circle and place it against the stone on the floor/wall in the square and use it to break down the stone/mortar/etc to get underneath it
Standing high jump height equals 3 plus strength modifier. Reach is one half your height. A 4 ft creature with 10 str can jump and reach the top of a 9 ft ledge. 7 ft is easy. No roll required. I'd rule it uses at least 15 ft of movement. Maybe 30 if starting prone. Players get benefit. Monsters aren't completely neutralized.
Shape water can't trap frozen creatures. And if in liquid form, any movement whatever moves them away from water and problem solved. It doesn't magically adhere, it animates. Spray them in the face as a distraction, sure. But can't drown.
Standing high jump height equals 3 plus strength modifier. Reach is one half your height. A 4 ft creature with 10 str can jump and reach the top of a 9 ft ledge. 7 ft is easy. No roll required. I'd rule it uses at least 15 ft of movement. Maybe 30 if starting prone. Players get benefit. Monsters aren't completely neutralized.
Shape water can't trap frozen creatures. And if in liquid form, any movement whatever moves them away from water and problem solved. It doesn't magically adhere, it animates. Spray them in the face as a distraction, sure. But can't drown.
But that's if you move at least 10 feet beforehand, otherwise it's half the jumping height, and since Goblins have a strength mod of -1 that's 2 for high jump, and since they're in a hole and can't move 10 feet before the jump they can only jump 1 foot in the air, and if the Goblin is 4 feet tall thay could still reach the top, but it's not necessarily a secure handhold since it's just a pile of dirt, and pull ups are hard, so a check for that makes sense.
Situation, Caster uses shape water to create a block of ice, then uses the movement property to sit on the ice and move in straight up. Basically creating a 5ft slab slow moving elevator/ flying carpet. Yes or no?
Standing high jump height equals 3 plus strength modifier. Reach is one half your height. A 4 ft creature with 10 str can jump and reach the top of a 9 ft ledge. 7 ft is easy. No roll required. I'd rule it uses at least 15 ft of movement. Maybe 30 if starting prone. Players get benefit. Monsters aren't completely neutralized.
Shape water can't trap frozen creatures. And if in liquid form, any movement whatever moves them away from water and problem solved. It doesn't magically adhere, it animates. Spray them in the face as a distraction, sure. But can't drown.
But that's if you move at least 10 feet beforehand, otherwise it's half the jumping height, and since Goblins have a strength mod of -1 that's 2 for high jump, and since they're in a hole and can't move 10 feet before the jump they can only jump 1 foot in the air, and if the Goblin is 4 feet tall thay could still reach the top, but it's not necessarily a secure handhold since it's just a pile of dirt, and pull ups are hard, so a check for that makes sense.
Oh, right you are on the math, forgot to take half. I even looked at that! But yea if they can reach the top with a 1 ft jump...just simplify things and don't require the roll. Especially if it's a cause of concern for you as a DM. Just let them get out and your problem is solved. I don't think any player would bat an eyelash at that ruling, and it (in my estimation) is the thing that's the most fun. Player did something useful. Monsters still threaten and challenge your players guys. Everybody wins.
Also, I just learned how to use the quote button! Thanks for that.
This is almost the same as what my pcs are doing, one player is an earth genasi, another is a rogue, and the last is a hexblade warlock
Any time they have 1-2 enemies left they make a hole and I allow them to roll a d8 to see how deep the hole is to try to make it less likely to be more than 5 but every time they have rolled it’s been between 6-8… Then the rogue just shoots at them into the hole and then once they are low the hexblade warlock just does his hex and puts everything he can into one hit and just dives head first while spinning into the hole
they have literally nicknamed it “the Blender” and it has a 99% success rate for them because I never roll well for my npcs to get out so they just keep doing it!
I had to make them fight a giant snake and a hypnotic spider, they even still tried to convince me they should be allowed to put the GIANT snake in the hole…
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I am always glad when someone does Fantasy Math.
So you can move 5'x'5'x5' of water with shape water at 5ft per 6seconds or 50ft per minute of continuous casting. (or concentration? I guess.) Also, this is me assuming you can make a cube of water and "roll" it to a different area.
You could even make a small stream or creak flow the wrong way, damming it up until it overflows the 5ft cube area. Which would obviously depend on the speed and volume of the flow.
This Cantrip is surprisingly powerful. Even within the written rules.
Can one make an air pocket? Like move water out of the way and then around a 5' area. Like a diving bell of sorts.
Or make a gap in a big river while crossing?
The more I think about it the more questions I have.
Or make a gap in a big river while crossing?
No, this is D&D, not the bible
Usr3773a, control water does let you part a (not particularly deep) river, and then slam it on charioteers that follow you. This does not make the PHB a bible.
You can make a pocket but it would instantly fill up if it is in a larger body of water or in a river.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I guess the air pocket/flowing water question revolves around whether you read "area of water" as meaning the specific molecules of water within the 5 foot square at the moment of casting, or as any and all water that enters the effected area during the round. If its the former, the spell is useful for bringing a cube of water/ice to a new location but not really that helpful in removing water from even pretty tiny creeks. If the latter, then it can be used to do cool things like create diving bells, cross rivers, stop you from getting swept downstream, stay dry in the rain, etc. If I was DMing I'd definitely pick the latter, especially because "chang[ing] the flow of the water as you direct" doesn't make much sense if the spell doesn't effect all water flowing through the space over the round.
The combat cantrips are all very cut and dry: cast this, and it has x to hit bonus/forces x save, and does y damage. The non-combat fluff cantrips are incredibly important to making an a caster "feel" like an elementalist, but are necessarily a little more vague in precise mechanics, since they're designed to be used in creative situations. If a DM always insists upon the most literal and limited reading possible, it becomes very unlikely that the character will really get the chance to do anything "cool" with them, and they essentially become never-picks. Like, if you have a water elementalist in the party, and they realize that they can't part a river for the group to walk through and can't save someone from drowning and can't even stop their sand castle from being swept away by waves, despite having "wasted" a cantrip slot on the ability to control water? They're going to feel like you're singling them out and telling them they shouldn't have picked that character in the first place.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Why couldn't the target just move their head out of the floating bubble of water? Nothing in Shape Water says you can make water adhere to/follow things around, nor hold creatures in place. Seems like the target would just walk away from the bubble.
Yes, I do agree that it shouldn't be used to drown anything other than the most helpless of opponents. Nothing in the spell implies the ability to make the moved water "stick" to a target's head, even if you form a globe in their space. But if a caster wanted to spend their round in combat causing a water globe to form... I'd certainly think it would be reasonable to have that cause an enemy caster to make a concentration save, or to hand out advantage to an ally's next attack or something.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Yes I know some of these ideas might be considered a little dark, but it's either me or them and it's not gonna be me
1) Now as far as accessing water. Does it have to be pure water, or could it be mixed in something. IE, can I pull it out of someone's beer (BITTER BEER FACE!)
2) if yes to #1, could we in theory pull the water of an enemies body if they are bleeding, or from another source (mud)
3) It says you can't freeze the water if someone is in it, BUT what if you moved a large enough quantity of it in a spinning ball into someones mouth, could I freeze it then so it's throat is sealed?
4) I know you can animate it, so could you make it a spinning circle and place it against the stone on the floor/wall in the square and use it to break down the stone/mortar/etc to get underneath it
I think part of what you're looking for is Watery Sphere
OR
Control Water
OR
Snilloc's Snowball Swarm
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
And if you can manipulate their blood using "Shape Water," what about casting "Destroy Water."
Standing high jump height equals 3 plus strength modifier. Reach is one half your height. A 4 ft creature with 10 str can jump and reach the top of a 9 ft ledge. 7 ft is easy. No roll required. I'd rule it uses at least 15 ft of movement. Maybe 30 if starting prone. Players get benefit. Monsters aren't completely neutralized.
Shape water can't trap frozen creatures. And if in liquid form, any movement whatever moves them away from water and problem solved. It doesn't magically adhere, it animates. Spray them in the face as a distraction, sure. But can't drown.
But that's if you move at least 10 feet beforehand, otherwise it's half the jumping height, and since Goblins have a strength mod of -1 that's 2 for high jump, and since they're in a hole and can't move 10 feet before the jump they can only jump 1 foot in the air, and if the Goblin is 4 feet tall thay could still reach the top, but it's not necessarily a secure handhold since it's just a pile of dirt, and pull ups are hard, so a check for that makes sense.
Situation, Caster uses shape water to create a block of ice, then uses the movement property to sit on the ice and move in straight up. Basically creating a 5ft slab slow moving elevator/ flying carpet. Yes or no?
Oh, right you are on the math, forgot to take half. I even looked at that! But yea if they can reach the top with a 1 ft jump...just simplify things and don't require the roll. Especially if it's a cause of concern for you as a DM. Just let them get out and your problem is solved. I don't think any player would bat an eyelash at that ruling, and it (in my estimation) is the thing that's the most fun. Player did something useful. Monsters still threaten and challenge your players guys. Everybody wins.
Also, I just learned how to use the quote button! Thanks for that.
This is almost the same as what my pcs are doing, one player is an earth genasi, another is a rogue, and the last is a hexblade warlock
Any time they have 1-2 enemies left they make a hole and I allow them to roll a d8 to see how deep the hole is to try to make it less likely to be more than 5 but every time they have rolled it’s been between 6-8… Then the rogue just shoots at them into the hole and then once they are low the hexblade warlock just does his hex and puts everything he can into one hit and just dives head first while spinning into the hole
they have literally nicknamed it “the Blender” and it has a 99% success rate for them because I never roll well for my npcs to get out so they just keep doing it!
I had to make them fight a giant snake and a hypnotic spider, they even still tried to convince me they should be allowed to put the GIANT snake in the hole…