Just a question - why does point buy have to be so limited? 15 points with a maximum racial of 17 isn't great, and don't you think 18 is better? Just wanted to get this off, but really, why do you DMs choose point buy? Just wanna know the reasons why.
So players don't have 18's in every single stat at level one. Sure everyone loves having an 18, but that is suppose to be rare. If you roll, players can start with 20 in a stat, and lucky players end up with 20, 18, 17, 15, 16, 15 while you end up with other players who have like 10, 14, 14, 8, 5, 12. This could be fun and interesting and you might not mind a player starting with 20 in a stat and at 4th level getting a 20 in a second stat.
18 is only better from a player's perspective. From a design perspective, the lower you keep the bonuses the better and most importantly having one player who is way better than everyone else, throws the game off.
The real question is what do you do when a PC rolls 4, 5, 6, 5, 5, 10. or the like? Then you have the player who inevitably starts the game with three 18s and swore they rolled it...or they roll it in front of you and it really is three 18s to start the game with. So, from what I gather, point buy tends to be used to insure players aren't starting with 18s, and to keep every player within the same range as each other, thus making sure you have no one who is basically a god, while someone else is so weak they don't qualify as average.
10 is suppose to be the average score for humans. Since PCs are just beginning their journey, it makes sense that they shouldn't have really really high scores. And can keep the math easier as PCs don't end up with ridiculous bonuses.
So Point Buy 1)Keeps people from cheating or you from having to watch everyone roll, 2) makes sure players are a little more even, keeping one player from being too poor and another player being amazing as possible. 3)Can eventually help make DC's and AC's more reasonable while trying to challenge the party.
Point buy is limited primarily to keep the average human within the range of the average human. Fifth edition and especially with bounded accuracy decided to limit point buy to a 15...but you don't have to. Look up the point buy in third edition and use those numbers and you will have scores that can go to 18. Remember in 5th skills cap out at 20, so going too high at first level means you are probably going to end up with a PC with really high scores across the board, or a lot of feats.
For me, the main reason to use point buy is so that the characters are all of roughly the same power.
With random rolling, it's possible for one player to make poor rolls and end up playing a fighter with 14 strength, whereas another player rolled well and is a cleric, with a couple of 18s in main stats and a 17 strength.
Playing the fighter when another member of the party is better at your core stat isn't something most people enjoy.
Here's the rules on points buy - the highest you can buy a stat is 15, which costs 9 points. Therefore with 54 points (or more) everyone would have 15 in each stat.
I'm pretty sure it was a flippant remark from Shavarathspawn, indicating he likes to play characters with really high stats. ;)
What if every player rolled for a set of six attributes and the group voted on the one set they all would use. For example, say player A rolls the standard array, player B rolls an 18 but also a 4 and three sixes, player C rolls a 16 but also two fifteens and a 10 and two 8s. The group would probably go with C, but some groups might prefer, for various reasons, to pick one of the other arrays. The point is, they all start with the same array, but it was randomly rolled.
This seems like a clever alternative to standard array/rolling that allows the group to have the same average stats, but allowing customization, while maintaining a bit of randomness. They would also need to understand that if they're all starting with really high stats, the encounters will be built around those really high stats and likewise if they all wind up with low stats. A campaign of bumbling fools would be hilarious!
What if every player rolled for a set of six attributes and the group voted on the one set they all would use. For example, say player A rolls the standard array, player B rolls an 18 but also a 4 and three sixes, player C rolls a 16 but also two fifteens and a 10 and two 8s. The group would probably go with C, but some groups might prefer, for various reasons, to pick one of the other arrays. The point is, they all start with the same array, but it was randomly rolled.
I think this would be a problem where you wouldn't get a clear vote. Someone might prefer an 18 then a drop to 14 while another person might like two 16's and not care about the 18. What is more, it really depends on the class. Spellcasters might like the two 16's to give them an additional dex point, while sacrificing a point in their spellcasting ability (that they can make up with their race choice), while a fighter wants the 18 because the rest of their stats aren't that big of a deal to them. Could work, but I feel like point buy is a better alternative as class is going to influence the vote as well as personal play style. So possibly lots of ties. Unless of course someone rolls 2+ 18s and then its easy.
Also some players may prefer to never have a negative, and that could make the voting even more wonky. Would be interesting to see how it plays out though.
Would be easier if the DM just rolls like four times and allow the players to choose which array they would like.
Would be easier if the DM just rolls like four times and allow the players to choose which array they would like.
It would be the same thing though; those arrays were simply my examples. Most likely you'd get a lot of arrays with scores between 9 and 12.
Yeah but with my idea if one player wants the 18 with lower scores and another player wants the 16 but with slightly higher scores, its all okay. I mean, I think it would be a rare event that everyone wants the same array that was rolled, so rolling four and letting the players choose is better than having the players roll and everyone votes.
The game runs on, and is balanced around, the assumption that characters will have a max attribute score of 20 (except for very specific circumstances) and that characters might use each and every one of their ASIs (ability score increases are core rules). If a DM doesn't want to allow Feats (which are a variant rule), they don't want someone playing a Fighter to have nothing to spend their ASIs on. Should you use point-buy, their 15-point system is designed to work with all those ASIs in mind. The Standard Array is similar in that it grants you a 15 as the highest. You get two odd numbers (15 and 13) from the Standard Array which can be made even with any of a class's ASIs. With the Standard Array having good math, its understandable the point-buy pricing would revolve around a similar expectation.
Personally, I like to roll my stats. There are a ton of ways to roll for stats and they can all have wildly different results. However, I prefer to use less common ways to roll. I find 2d6+6 is the easiest and keeps things very similar to Standard Array and 15 point-buy. All scores are kept between 8 and 16 and they average around 13. If you want to get even closer to the Standard Array's math, then you could go with 1d4+1d3+3d2(drop lowest)+4 which gives you a minimum of 8, maximum of 15, and an average score of 12. There's a distinct curve towards the 10-14 scores, but you still have a healthy 4.71% chance to roll a 15, which is about the same chance as rolling two 14s. Its a crazy way to roll, but the math is tasty and can pair well with other players that might want to use Standard Array or Point-buy.
I like the randomness of rolling but wouldn't want over/underpowered characters. Maybe have people roll for their point buy?
I also love rolling for stats and also have some concern for the over/under powered characters. I developed my own method of stat-building that combines rolling with point-buy.
Players roll 3d6 for their stats and they are locked in down the line. Then they total up the value of what they rolled. Take that number and subtract it from 75. This gives the player the number of points that they are allowed to spend on their stats.
Example: Player gets 11 Str, 8 Dex, 7 Con, 15 Int, 9 Wis, & 10 Chr. Total value is 60, subtract 75-60 to get 15 points. Player then distributes 15 points into their abilities using standard point buy rules. (of course, everything less than eight is bought up on a 1 point for 1 point basis)
This does present the chance that a player may roll very well for their stats, but it is less likely with only 3d6 used. And even if someone does roll really well, the rest of the group will have a minimum stat spread of the point-buy available in the PHB. It's possible to allow characters to assign their rolls as well, but for my group, we've enjoyed picking our characters based on our stats. Makes for some interesting characters some of us wouldn't normally play.
i feel like 82 is a bit excessive but some people play higher power campaigns, the basic stats you can use instead of rolling or point buy are (15 14 13 12 10 8) which adds up to 72 so i just make the max stat cap (before racial bonuses and everything) 18 and you can allot points as you choose. The average of your stats(pre race or class bonuses) is gonna be 12, which lets you have a few high stats but at the cost of a few pretty low stats. I used this for a gunslinger (human variant) who started of with an int and dex of 20 and 18 respectively (post racial bonuses and the keen mind feat) and a str and chr of 6 and 6, so it evens out.
Just a question - why does point buy have to be so limited? 15 points with a maximum racial of 17 isn't great, and don't you think 18 is better? Just wanted to get this off, but really, why do you DMs choose point buy? Just wanna know the reasons why.
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So players don't have 18's in every single stat at level one. Sure everyone loves having an 18, but that is suppose to be rare. If you roll, players can start with 20 in a stat, and lucky players end up with 20, 18, 17, 15, 16, 15 while you end up with other players who have like 10, 14, 14, 8, 5, 12. This could be fun and interesting and you might not mind a player starting with 20 in a stat and at 4th level getting a 20 in a second stat.
18 is only better from a player's perspective. From a design perspective, the lower you keep the bonuses the better and most importantly having one player who is way better than everyone else, throws the game off.
The real question is what do you do when a PC rolls 4, 5, 6, 5, 5, 10. or the like? Then you have the player who inevitably starts the game with three 18s and swore they rolled it...or they roll it in front of you and it really is three 18s to start the game with. So, from what I gather, point buy tends to be used to insure players aren't starting with 18s, and to keep every player within the same range as each other, thus making sure you have no one who is basically a god, while someone else is so weak they don't qualify as average.
10 is suppose to be the average score for humans. Since PCs are just beginning their journey, it makes sense that they shouldn't have really really high scores. And can keep the math easier as PCs don't end up with ridiculous bonuses.
So Point Buy 1)Keeps people from cheating or you from having to watch everyone roll, 2) makes sure players are a little more even, keeping one player from being too poor and another player being amazing as possible. 3)Can eventually help make DC's and AC's more reasonable while trying to challenge the party.
Point buy is limited primarily to keep the average human within the range of the average human. Fifth edition and especially with bounded accuracy decided to limit point buy to a 15...but you don't have to. Look up the point buy in third edition and use those numbers and you will have scores that can go to 18. Remember in 5th skills cap out at 20, so going too high at first level means you are probably going to end up with a PC with really high scores across the board, or a lot of feats.
For me, the main reason to use point buy is so that the characters are all of roughly the same power.
With random rolling, it's possible for one player to make poor rolls and end up playing a fighter with 14 strength, whereas another player rolled well and is a cleric, with a couple of 18s in main stats and a 17 strength.
Playing the fighter when another member of the party is better at your core stat isn't something most people enjoy.
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"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
What about the 82 point rule people like me use?
Just an average metalhead who plays DnD in his spare time.
PbP Character: Roberta Thalan, Void Beyond the Stars Otherside
PbP Character: Primus Eidolon, Eotha 2
PbP Character: Usmor Illiqai, Tomb of Corrosion
PbP Character: "Templar" Danver, You're the Villains
Homebrew stuff
If you and your group want to play with 82 points, then go ahead!
This game is about enjoying yourselves and that means playing it the way you want to play it. :)
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"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
Here's the rules on points buy - the highest you can buy a stat is 15, which costs 9 points. Therefore with 54 points (or more) everyone would have 15 in each stat.
I'm pretty sure it was a flippant remark from Shavarathspawn, indicating he likes to play characters with really high stats. ;)
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If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
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Which doesn't mean that you can't go above 15 if you wanted.
I was just ranting. I like optimized characters.
Just an average metalhead who plays DnD in his spare time.
PbP Character: Roberta Thalan, Void Beyond the Stars Otherside
PbP Character: Primus Eidolon, Eotha 2
PbP Character: Usmor Illiqai, Tomb of Corrosion
PbP Character: "Templar" Danver, You're the Villains
Homebrew stuff
Then why not let Players start with an 18, 15, 15, 14, 12, 10 or something like that rather than rolling or doing point buy?
I like the randomness of rolling but wouldn't want over/underpowered characters. Maybe have people roll for their point buy?
The game runs on, and is balanced around, the assumption that characters will have a max attribute score of 20 (except for very specific circumstances) and that characters might use each and every one of their ASIs (ability score increases are core rules). If a DM doesn't want to allow Feats (which are a variant rule), they don't want someone playing a Fighter to have nothing to spend their ASIs on. Should you use point-buy, their 15-point system is designed to work with all those ASIs in mind. The Standard Array is similar in that it grants you a 15 as the highest. You get two odd numbers (15 and 13) from the Standard Array which can be made even with any of a class's ASIs. With the Standard Array having good math, its understandable the point-buy pricing would revolve around a similar expectation.
Personally, I like to roll my stats. There are a ton of ways to roll for stats and they can all have wildly different results. However, I prefer to use less common ways to roll. I find 2d6+6 is the easiest and keeps things very similar to Standard Array and 15 point-buy. All scores are kept between 8 and 16 and they average around 13. If you want to get even closer to the Standard Array's math, then you could go with 1d4+1d3+3d2(drop lowest)+4 which gives you a minimum of 8, maximum of 15, and an average score of 12. There's a distinct curve towards the 10-14 scores, but you still have a healthy 4.71% chance to roll a 15, which is about the same chance as rolling two 14s. Its a crazy way to roll, but the math is tasty and can pair well with other players that might want to use Standard Array or Point-buy.
Players roll 3d6 for their stats and they are locked in down the line. Then they total up the value of what they rolled. Take that number and subtract it from 75. This gives the player the number of points that they are allowed to spend on their stats.
Example: Player gets 11 Str, 8 Dex, 7 Con, 15 Int, 9 Wis, & 10 Chr. Total value is 60, subtract 75-60 to get 15 points. Player then distributes 15 points into their abilities using standard point buy rules. (of course, everything less than eight is bought up on a 1 point for 1 point basis)
This does present the chance that a player may roll very well for their stats, but it is less likely with only 3d6 used. And even if someone does roll really well, the rest of the group will have a minimum stat spread of the point-buy available in the PHB. It's possible to allow characters to assign their rolls as well, but for my group, we've enjoyed picking our characters based on our stats. Makes for some interesting characters some of us wouldn't normally play.i feel like 82 is a bit excessive but some people play higher power campaigns, the basic stats you can use instead of rolling or point buy are (15 14 13 12 10 8) which adds up to 72 so i just make the max stat cap (before racial bonuses and everything) 18 and you can allot points as you choose. The average of your stats(pre race or class bonuses) is gonna be 12, which lets you have a few high stats but at the cost of a few pretty low stats. I used this for a gunslinger (human variant) who started of with an int and dex of 20 and 18 respectively (post racial bonuses and the keen mind feat) and a str and chr of 6 and 6, so it evens out.