As far as the rules go, a creature trying to hide needs to be behind cover and typically unseen.
This isn't completely accurate. Of course the DM decides when hiding is possible, but generally a creature can attempt to hide without cover if they are invisible or are standing in total darkness, for example.
It's simply not true that you need to be hidden from *all* foes to be hidden from *any* foe. RAW doesn't work that way, and neither does real life. RAW-wise, whether or not a foe notices you or knows your exact location, that's for the dice to decide.
This is incorrect, the rules as written do not say this.
In 5e, many rules are simplified at the expense of realism. The hiding rules are one example.
Suppose you had 10 PC / allies in a fight against 10 monsters in a large room full of pillars -- for example purposes assume everyone has a bonus action Hide ability and is using it every turn when ducking behind a pillar which provides some cover from at least somebody. With your proposal we would have to keep a 10 x 10 spreadsheet with 100 entries for who is hidden from whom at all times which must be updated in multiple places after every time somebody takes a turn. And another similar spreadsheet to determine if that 2nd person is actually hidden from the 1st, so 200 entries tracked and updated in total.
Instead, in 5e, every combatant is either hidden or they are not. See how much simpler that is? Not super realistic but better for game flow.
The most relevant rules are in Chapter 7:
Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
. . .
Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score
This means that if you are not discovered and you don't stop hiding, the check that you made persists -- you don't have to make multiple stealth rolls when multiple monsters try to find you. However, the caveat is "until you are discovered" and that's it. If you are discovered, your roll is no longer contested by the check of any creature (enemy). Therefore, if you are discovered by any enemy, you are no longer hidden. (And yet, if this begins combat, you might still surprise some opponents but not others. That's seemingly inconsistent but those are the rules.)
I agree - when I used the word "cover" it includes darkness/invisibility or even blindness - anything that makes the creature trying to hide unseen by the creature it is hiding from.
However, "hidden" can be determined on a case by case basis. Some creatures may detect the hidden creature if their passive perception is sufficiently high and others may not. There are some rules examples that support that viewpoint.
In the surprise rules at the beginning of combat:
"If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
The stealth rolls are resolved individually against each creature. Some creatures may notice a hidden creature and others may not. The statement "Instead, in 5e, every combatant is either hidden or they are not. " is clearly not correct since some creatures can be surprised when they notice a threat and others may not be. One of the creatures noticing a hidden creature clearly does not remove that hidden status for everyone since some can be surprised while others are not, precisely because some become aware of a hidden threat and others do not.
In addition, your rules citation for passive perception:
"Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score"
Passive perception is entirely worded from the perspective of a single creature. IF that creature's passive perception is sufficiently high then that creature notices you. It does NOT say if your passive perception is sufficiently high then EVERY creature notices you.
Although it may appear to be more work, hidden status is resolved on a case by case basis against each opponent individually so that a creature may be hidden from some creatures and not hidden from other creatures. In practice, I have never found resolving stealth effects on a case by case basis to be an issue.
However, I agree that a DM can choose to run it however they like and the wording of the text in chapter 7 would seem to indicate that after being noticed by a creature the hidden creature may need to make another stealth roll to remain hidden from other creatures that may not have noticed them yet.
However, "hidden" can be determined on a case by case basis. Some creatures may detect the hidden creature if their passive perception is sufficiently high and others may not. There are some rules examples that support that viewpoint.
In the surprise rules at the beginning of combat:
"If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
The stealth rolls are resolved individually against each creature. Some creatures may notice a hidden creature and others may not. The statement "Instead, in 5e, every combatant is either hidden or they are not. " is clearly not correct since some creatures can be surprised when they notice a threat and others may not be. One of the creatures noticing a hidden creature clearly does not remove that hidden status for everyone since some can be surprised while others are not, precisely because some become aware of a hidden threat and others do not.
In addition, your rules citation for passive perception:
"Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score"
Passive perception is entirely worded from the perspective of a single creature. IF that creature's passive perception is sufficiently high then that creature notices you. It does NOT say if your passive perception is sufficiently high then EVERY creature notices you.
Although it may appear to be more work, hidden status is resolved on a case by case basis against each opponent individually so that a creature may be hidden from some creatures and not hidden from other creatures. In practice, I have never found resolving stealth effects on a case by case basis to be an issue.
However, I agree that a DM can choose to run it however they like and the wording of the text in chapter 7 would seem to indicate that after being noticed by a creature the hidden creature may need to make another stealth roll to remain hidden from other creatures that may not have noticed them yet.
A lot of this was good except for the conclusions that were drawn. In my previous post, I specifically called out the surprise mechanic at the end precisely because it does cause confusion when conflated with the rules for hiding. But the logic for surprise is actually a little bit different than the logic for hiding.
Being hidden is not really determined on a case by case basis. The stealth role that is used to attempt to hide persists until you are no longer hidden. What does occur on a case by case basis is the perception of each enemy that tries to find you.
Surprise is a separate mechanic that only occurs at the start of combat. Some group members can be surprised while others in the same group are not. But this has to do with the perception scores within the group to notice a threat, not with whether the monsters in question remain hidden.
Example: 4 goblins (#1, #2, #3 and #4) are hiding in the bushes attempting to set up a surprise ambush against a party of 4 PCs (A, B, C and D). When combat begins, PC A and PC B notice that there's a threat and therefore are not surprised. Since the goblins share the same stealth roll, the DM might determine that PC A and PC B detected all 4 of the goblins. At this point, none of the goblins are hidden, even though PC C and PC D are surprised. Those two PCs were unable to notice a threat at the start of combat. However, as combat begins, none of the goblins are hidden.
Alternatively, maybe the DM decides that these 4 goblins were all spread out and PC A and PC B only noticed one of them (goblin #1). When combat begins, goblin #2, goblin #3 and goblin #4 are all hidden, but PC A and PC B are still not surprised because they noticed a threat. PC C and PC D are surprised by failing to notice a threat, but when combat begins goblin #1 is not hidden and goblins #2, #3 and #4 are hidden.
So, just because some PCs are surprised does not affect which enemies remain hidden. There is nothing in the rules to indicate otherwise.
To follow through with the alternative setup a bit more -- during the first round of combat PC C and PC D cannot act on their turn because they were surprised. During the first round, all of the goblins attack and then all of the goblins fail their bonus action hide checks. For argument's sake, suppose C and D are last in initiative. The goblins have acted. At this point, none of the goblins are hidden and yet C and D still cannot act. Again, the surprise mechanic is separate from the hiding rules.
When it comes to the wording for passive perception -- you are correct, it is worded from the perspective of a single creature. That's because each perception check is separate for each creature who attempts to find you. But, remember the rule for hiding: Your stealth roll persists . . .
Until you are discovered or you stop hiding
When you are discovered you are no longer hidden, the rule on that is clear even though it's simplistic and unrealistic.
Also, your last point which says:
"after being noticed by a creature the hidden creature may need to make another stealth roll to remain hidden from other creatures that may not have noticed them yet"
That's just not a thing. You cannot hide in plain sight. If an enemy is looking right at you and is potentially engaged in combat with you, you cannot simultaneously hide from other combatants. You are simply not hidden at that point and cannot hide.
Ok, so lastly let me just tack on a point of my own. I think it was brought up earlier in the thread but it's worth repeating. Successfully hiding or remaining hidden in the middle of combat is not actually that big of a deal. It cannot lead to surprise which only occurs at the start of combat. The only benefit is that your location becomes unknown so you cannot be directly targeted by an attack or a spell. Assuming the creature attempting to hide did so by ducking behind total cover, that creature would still gain the benefits of total cover which includes being untargetable by weapon ranged attacks and by spells that require line of sight or the ability to see the target. You'd still get the advantage / disadvantage bonuses of being an unseen attacker or target. You just wouldn't be hidden (location unknown). Mechanically, this is really only a very minor upgrade to simply being unseen behind total cover.
4 goblins (#1, #2, #3 and #4) are hiding in the bushes attempting to set up a surprise ambush against a party of 4 PCs (A, B, C and D). When combat begins, PC A and PC B notice that there's a threat and therefore are not surprised. Since the goblins share the same stealth roll, the DM might determine that PC A and PC B detected all 4 of the goblins. At this point, none of the goblins are hidden, even though PC C and PC D are surprised. Those two PCs were unable to notice a threat at the start of combat. However, as combat begins, none of the goblins are hidden.
Why are the goblins not hidden from PC C & D if they failed to notice them? You can be hidden from some creature but not from others if said creatures failed to perceive you. If PC C & D failed to notice all goblins and are surprised by the goblins, they should still be hidden from them.
EDIT I see your reasoning "you are hidden until you are discovered" is in reference to every single observer and not a general condition that ends. The goblins have not been discovered by PC C & D and are therefore still hidden from them.
Well no I actually meant that it's a general "condition" that ends. That's how I read all of the rules together -- the relevant sections of Chapters 7, 8 and 9.
Hiding rules are tough because various related concepts are all spread out. Chapter 7 has discussions of ability checks, contests, passive checks, group checks, dexterity stealth checks, and the rules for Hiding. Chapter 8 has rules for stealth and perception while travelling including the effects of travel pace, marching order, splitting the party, and performing activities other than noticing threats. Chapter 8 also gets into the effects of vision and light including how heavily obscured an area is due to environmental conditions such as darkness, fog or foliage. Chapter 9 discusses other types of cover as well as the rules for surprise and initiative, taking the Hide action during combat, and the rules for Unseen Attackers and Targets. It's too much to try to quote in a single post. But we really need to be carefully reading all of these sections to get a good big picture grasp on how stealth and hiding is supposed to work in this game. Then we need to examine each of these sections one by one to see if the rules are really telling us to track every individual pair of combatants (in both directions) throughout the combat to determine who is hidden from whom at every moment.
When I read through all of these rules I see nothing that suggests that combatants are ever hidden from some enemies but not others and no one has quoted anything in the rules that says to do it that way.
The closest that we come to seeing that is in the rules for surprise. But that has already been explained. Surprise only occurs at one moment in time before combat begins (before initiative is rolled). The important part of the surprise rule is here:
the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
This means that at the moment in time that the hiding group is attempting to surprise their enemies, every individual hiding creature's stealth is indeed compared against every individual enemy's perception. To be surprised, an enemy must fail to detect every threat -- if a threat is noticed then that enemy is not surprised. But conversely, to remain hidden AFTER this moment in time, a hiding creature must remain hidden against every enemy. We know this because the rules for hiding state:
Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, [ your same stealth check's total continues to persist while each enemy continues to look for you ].
Again, the rules for surprise are different than the rules for hiding. Sneaking or hiding is often a prerequisite for achieving surprise but the rules and mechanics for determining who is surprised and who is hidden are different.
It will often be the case that creatures are hidden well enough to surprise some enemies but then are not hidden when combat begins.
I think the Surprise rules get you confused on how hiding works, they're independant and being hidden is not a condition but a status in respect to another creature resulting from a contest either noticing you or failing to discover you, and thus remaining hidden from it, where with Surprise the moment you notice a threat you aren't Surprised.
Hiding: When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score.
Your posts are baffling sometimes! I have just spent several posts explaining how the surprise rules are confusing other people about how hiding works!
There are rules for how to become hidden, what it means to be hidden and under what circumstances you are no longer hidden as follows:
How to become hidden:
Hide
When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules for hiding.
HIDING
The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check . . . that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence . . . When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score
. . .
You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly
. . .
under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted
What does it mean when you are hidden?
hidden--both unseen and unheard . . . [ an enemy may have to succeed in ] guessing the target's location [ because the target is hidden ] . . . If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss
Lastly, the rules for remaining hidden and for when a creature is no longer hidden:
Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
you give away your position if you make noise
when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.
None of these above rules say or even imply that who is hidden from whom should be tracked on an ongoing basis. There is only how to become hidden, what it means when you are hidden, how to remain hidden, and rules that determine if you are no longer hidden. That's it.
Ok, so hopefully this won't confuse the issue, but I will now attempt to compare the wording in the above rules with the wording that appears in the rules for surprise, demonstrating that the wording for those rules is intentionally completely different -- again, hiding and surprise are totally separate game mechanics.
Within the rules for surprise, we have wording like this:
the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
. . .
A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.
So, in the case of the surprise rules, the rules are written deliberately and explicitly to describe the procedure of comparing each and every ally check against each and every enemy check, one pairing after the other and all the way through. The result of this procedure is that some individuals within a group might be surprised -- the rules go out of their way to reemphasize that point.
The hiding rules do NOT do this. There is no wording anything like this that indicates that hiding consists of ongoing individual pairings that should be tracked. Instead, the hiding rules are clarifying that your initial stealth roll persists while you remain hiding and more and more enemies continue searching for you (or not). However, this stealth roll only remains in effect "Until you are discovered or you stop hiding".
Hopefully this explanation has been helpful -- unfortunately I'm really bad at finding the related Sage Advice posts but there was definitely a post from JC that confirms the viewpoint that a creature is either hidden from all enemies or is not hidden from all enemies. Maybe someone can find and post it.
The hiding rules do NOT do this. There is no wording anything like this that indicates that hiding consists of ongoing individual pairings that should be tracked.
Yes the wording was quoted;
Hiding: When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score.
When it comes to the wording for passive perception -- you are correct, it is worded from the perspective of a single creature. That's because each perception check is separate for each creature who attempts to find you. But, remember the rule for hiding: Your stealth roll persists . . .
You should put aside the Surprises rules since Hiding and Surprise are two distinct rules. You can hide in combat after the first round for exemple, so if you do so, not because some of your enemies succeeded at the Dexterity (Stealth) vs Wisdom (Perception) contest that you may not be hidden to the others that failed to notice you. Because hiding is all about perception or the lack of thereof;
Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception)
Hmm, I'm having trouble following the point you were trying to make there. Are you still saying that in combat a creature can be hidden from some enemies while not hidden from other enemies? That's not the rule. The rule is: You are either hidden or you are not.
For reference, I found the Sage Advice that I was thinking of which agrees with what I've been saying. You may have to scroll down and open some replies to get to the relevant question:
Yes i'm saying you can be hidden from some creatures and not others and the Dev tweet doesn't contradict it but reiterate ""until discovered"" which is a status an individual basis as per creature's Perception vs Stealth contest and not a general condition that ends the moment one creature notice you. In other word, you are hidden from any creature until discovered by it.
You seem to agree about the Perception part being individual but not the other end of the contest part which is Stealth. To go back to Surprise rules, any creature that doesn't notice a hidden threat is surprised at the start of the encounter, meaning they're still hidden from them because they haven't discovered them having failed to notice them.
Otherwise the highest Passive Perception from someone in a group of PC or monsters would basically let all the rest of the group notice a hidden creature. Instead you compare the Dexterity (Stealth) check with each creature's Perception rather than the highest of them.
This thread seems to be about whether a rogue - who puts in the effort, and succeeds on his rolls - should be allowed one sneak attack on his turn. But why would anyone want to do that. It is, after all, that thing rogues get to do in combat: Make one, somewhat hefty attack, straight to the spleen. Frankly, I think the rules just needlessly overcomplicated this one. It should read: Your first attack each round is a sneak attack, it goes straight in the spleen. You're welcome to roleplay this in some way, run and hide, flank or throw powder in the face of your enemy - it doesn't matter though. You do more damage, the end.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
From my experience, the main reason for a character to hide in combat is either offensive to attack with advantage or defensive to be attacked with disadvantage and force the attacker to select a space/square to target. Now to attempt to hide you generally must not be seen clearly meaning you should already have the benefits granted to Unseen Attackers and Targets but there are some situation where it may not be the case such as for an Elf's Mask of the Wild, an Halfling's Naturally Stealthy or one with the Skulker feat letting one hide while only lightly obscured by natural phenomenon or larger creature.
Unless you don't need use an action, or be invisible, heavily obscured or otherwise unseen, it's very rare to see one hide in combat. #YMMV
Well, I guess we'll disagree about what the dev tweet said then, but I've seen this explained in multiple sources. Being hidden is indeed a general "condition" that ends the moment one creature discovers you. We can only quote it so many times, but the critical portion of the rule says this:
Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
It's wordy, but if we parse that sentence correctly we see that it means that the stealth check that you made persists round after round -- but that check is essentially thrown away and no longer applies to the game as soon as "you are discovered or you stop hiding".
The surprise rules work totally differently. For surprise, comparisons are made at one moment in time. This occurs before combat begins. It's step 1 in the "Combat Step-By-Step" sidebar, which does not repeat and occurs well before rolling for initiative and taking turns. Because of the timing of how this works, your statement here is problematic:
any creature that doesn't notice a hidden threat is surprised at the start of the encounter, meaning they're still hidden from them because they haven't discovered them having failed to notice them.
This is only true during step 1 while determining surprise. Once initiative is rolled and combatants are taking turns, those monsters might no longer be hidden if they were discovered, even though some individuals may have already been surprised.
the highest Passive Perception from someone in a group of PC or monsters would basically let all the rest of the group notice a hidden creature.
In fact, this is exactly what often happens. Surprise has already been determined and now some of the combatants who were hidden to create the surprise are now no longer hidden when combat begins if indeed anyone noticed them.
Again, rules for hiding are intentionally simplified and unrealistic in 5e just like many of the other rules in the system.
Well, I guess we'll disagree about what the dev tweet said then, but I've seen this explained in multiple sources. Being hidden is indeed a general "condition" that ends the moment one creature discovers you.
If this was written anywhere, we would not have this discussion, this is your own interpretation when reading "until discovered" which differ from mine considering what the rules mechanic says on how to notice a hidden creature so i guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
I've decided to keep the discussion going a bit just because I think it's a fun topic . . .
One other point that I wanted to make is that I think some players also confuse being hidden with being unseen. In the case of being unseen, I DO believe that this should be adjudicated separately for each possible pair of combatants -- this is often simply a line of sight issue and can be easily evaluated at any moment during combat . . . there is nothing to keep track of over time per se. If an enemy is located behind something such that my line of sight to that enemy is blocked, then that enemy is currently unseen to me, but might be seen by my ally. That makes perfect sense. And there are lots of advantages to being unseen in combat as detailed in the rules for "Unseen Attackers and Targets". Really, the only difference between this and being hidden is whether or not your location is known. My interpretation is that as soon as one of my allies discovers you, your location becomes known to me even if I still cannot see you. Again, it's a simplification and doesn't make perfect sense in every situation, but I believe that's what is written in the rules.
Another quick example: An ally and I encounter two goblins in a field and engage in combat. Just behind the goblins in the field is a large evergreen tree, 15 feet in diameter at its base. During the fight, one of the goblins gets away and runs behind the tree and disappears from view and from our sense of hearing and becomes hidden -- we lose track of exactly where that goblin is located. Now, my partner and I quickly kill the other goblin. We turn to each other and ask ourselves "Hey, what about that one goblin who ran behind that tree? He must still be back there somewhere." My partner decides to go check it out and for whatever reason I decide to remain exactly where I am. My partner moves around the corner, looks behind the tree, points emphatically to one side of the tree and shouts "Hey! There it is! Just behind the tree on the right side!" And he raises his sword and prepares to attack. At this point the goblin is no longer hidden. I still cannot see it, but I know exactly where it is.
Its a bit more murky because of the way the differents infos is all laid out. Pieces of it is in the Hide rules, others in the Unseen Attacks and Targets. Personally, i rule that making your location unknown requires to be hidden with a successful Dexterity (Stealth) check based on the Devs tweet on the subject.
@wax_eagle can you target a creature who is obscured but not hidden? More precisely, is hidden the only way to conceal position?
@JeremyECrawford Being hidden is the by-the-book way to conceal your position. The DM may decide that other methods can also conceal it.
@fritomuncher My PC uses the invisibility spell, does he auto hide or do I still need to take the hide action to not be targeted?
@JeremyECrawford The invisibility spell doesn't automatically hide you; you still make noise.
@quadhund But is the invisible person considered hidden as a result of casting invisibility?
@JeremyECrawford Invisible = unseen. Hidden = unseen and unheard.
Jeremy Crawford: When you're in invisible it doesn't mean your silent. If you really want to make sure people don't know where you are, you need to hide, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check and you're hoping that they are not only not gonna notice any visual traces of where you are but they are not gonna hear you
Unseen = Unseen + Location unknownn
Hidden = Unseen and Unheard + Location unknown
Unseen Attacks and Targets: Combatants often try to escape their foes' notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness. When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target's location correctly. When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. If you are hidden--both unseen and unheard--when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.
It's definitely an area that needs to be explained and set out better in OneD&D, as the Sage Advice/external advice that we have is every bit as vague as the rules themselves. The Unseen Attackers and Targets rule mentions attacking a target's location, but that's not really a concept mentioned anywhere else in the rules; you attack creatures, or you pick locations, you never really attack locations.
When running stealth in games I like to try and run it in terms of two questions:
Where does a creature think you are?
Are you giving away your location?
To me awareness comes down to visibility and audibility (unseen and unheard), and while the Hide action can help with these, it's actually more about avoiding giving away your location, rather than being unseen and unheard in the first place. If a character is in cover and keeping quiet, and an enemy doesn't know it's there, then there's no reason to declare the Hide action; a DM can just ask you to roll Stealth naturally if they feel it's necessary to do.
Crawford's tweet about being invisible isn't super helpful because while being invisible doesn't mean you make no sound, what if you're simply making no sound to begin with? E.g- you go invisible using Subtle spell and don't move or do anything noisy, why should you need to take the Hide action to remain quiet? However, if you go invisible and don't move, but an enemy saw you go invisible, why should hiding make you harder to find? The enemy still knows your space, and can choose to attack it (with disadvantage) if they want to do; they don't need to beat your Stealth to do that if they know where you were, and don't believe you moved. The question in this case is are they right to believe you didn't move?
To me the purpose of the Hide action isn't shutting up, it's about being able to move quietly; because there's no point just going behind cover and hiding, unless you can move somewhere. Because if you just go behind a pillar and hide, but there's nowhere else for you to be, the enemy can just go over to the pillar and attack you anyway, as they still know where you are. The reason you want to hide as you enter into cover, is if you can then use that cover and any adjoining darkness etc. to move to a new location that the enemy is unaware of, i.e- you reduce an enemy to only knowing where you vanished, and having to guess where you might be (unless they beat your Stealth roll to hear where you went).
Essentially the way I run it is this:
If a creature can be seen, or is making audible noise, its current space is known to any other creature that can see/hear it.
If a creature cannot be seen, and isn't making audible noise, any creature that has never seen or heard it is unaware of it's presence, while a creature that could see or hear it is only aware of its last known location (which may or may not be the same as its current location).
A creature can use the Hide action to move away from their last known location, while (hopefully) not causing a creature to become aware of their new current location.
But it's hard to argue that this is what the Rules As Written say because they actually say so very little; for example, how do we determine if a creature is audible or not? It seems it's entirely down to a table on a particular DM screen that not every DM will own. How accurate is a creature's ability to hear? Is literally any audible sound equivalent to having blindsight? I think it's obvious that it shouldn't be, but people do try and run it as every creature effectively having blindsight as long they aren't deafened.
I think as long as you don't successfully Hide a creature that was aware of you remains aware that you're nearby, and can search etc., hiding is more about convincing a creature you either aren't where you were, or aren't in the area at all anymore. Otherwise it should be possible to break awareness as creatures move behind obstructions/distractions etc. naturally, but your enemies still know you're there (and roughly where).
There's just so much missing to make this area into proper rules, so the DMs are basically left to fill in all the blanks. I'm happy with the way I run it, because it makes sense to me and I think gives a good balance of rewarding the use of the Hide action, without granting creatures hyper-awareness when that action isn't used, and I suspect it's the intended way to do, i.e- common sense awareness in as much detail as the situation requires. But it'd be nice if the rules spelled it out properly, and just had a page that said "Stealth" at the top and told is everything we need to know.
I totally agree that for such a common and fundamental aspect of gameplay it's a shame that the rules on it are so unclear. I also agree that the rules should have never mentioned the possibility of attacking a location (guessing) -- a creature just should not be targetable if its location is unknown.
To me the purpose of the Hide action isn't shutting up, it's about being able to move quietly; because there's no point just going behind cover and hiding, unless you can move somewhere.
I love this interpretation and I think that it's important for DM's to take this part of the rule seriously:
The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding.
So, when we're talking about a player wanting to take a Hide action in the middle of a battle by running from an area where they could clearly be seen in order to go stand behind a pillar to "hide", maybe the DM should just respond to that with something like "You can move there and you'd have cover and you'd break line of sight, but you cannot hide there". I like it.
If a creature can be seen, or is making audible noise, its current space is known to any other creature that can see/hear it.
I think it's reasonable to run a game like this but I still think that RAW makes this more simplistic -- that if a creature's location is known by any enemy then it is known by all enemies, even if not all of them can currently see or hear that creature.
how do we determine if a creature is audible or not?
I think that this is meant to be determined by the dice. For some out-of-combat situations, I think that a DM can just decide that you are not audible and therefore are automatically stealthy / hidden (auto-success, no check required). Or, you just made so much noise that you auto-fail and are not hidden. But in an attempt to Hide during the chaos of battle I think that the idea is that there is always a chance that you are too loud in that moment -- it's uncertain and the actual level of acceptable noise varies. So, maybe you roll a 2 but the monster has a perception of 0 for whatever reason -- so in this case you were pretty much shouting across the room but the monster's ears were totally plugged or maybe there was another loud noise happening simultaneously. But another time you roll a 19 but the monster has a perception of 20 which means that he could pretty much hear you breathing or hear your heart beating or something.
Also, reading your response made me think of something that I hadn't really thought much about -- that taking the Hide action during battle requires . . . your action! Or for some it can be done as a Bonus Action. In a way that's a bit strange. Like, I am giving up my chance to attack or cast a spell and instead I am using all of my energy during these 6 seconds to just get quiet and potentially move a bit while unseen and unheard. In other words, running behind total cover and becoming unseen is free, but doing that exact same thing quietly requires your entire action to attempt -- maybe unsuccessfully! Hmmm.
If a creature cannot be seen, and isn't making audible noise, any creature that has never seen or heard it is unaware of it's presence, while a creature that could see or hear it is only aware of its last known location (which may or may not be the same as its current location).
I agree with most of your post i have a question about this part. If the creature cannot be seen and isn't making noise but is not hidden, how can it be detected?
I think it's reasonable to run a game like this but I still think that RAW makes this more simplistic -- that if a creature's location is known by any enemy then it is known by all enemies, even if not all of them can currently see or hear that creature.
I don't think it's really defined anywhere either way; the Surprise rules for example aren't all-or-nothing,individual creatures are either surprised or not, so I tend to take my cues from that for awareness.
That said, enemies have the same ability to communicate (if they can) that players do, so they could issue warnings "someone's skulking in the shadows over there" etc., I prefer to try and run things that way because it still gives you those exciting little windows of opportunity where you're spotted, but not by your intended target so might still get a Sneak Attack in against them if you're fast enough.
I think it definitely falls to individual DMs though; trying to keep a handle of which enemy is aware of which players is fairly manageable when you've only got one enemy, but when it comes to groups the "hive mind" method has definite advantages for the DM's sanity!
Also, reading your response made me think of something that I hadn't really thought much about -- that taking the Hide action during battle requires . . . your action! Or for some it can be done as a Bonus Action. In a way that's a bit strange. Like, I am giving up my chance to attack or cast a spell and instead I am using all of my energy during these 6 seconds to just get quiet and potentially move a bit while unseen and unheard. In other words, running behind total cover and becoming unseen is free, but doing that exact same thing quietly requires your entire action to attempt -- maybe unsuccessfully! Hmmm.
This is a definite part of the dilmena, as you don't want to make it too easy to hide after doing something like attacking, or it means enemies might not be able to give chase and attack back, but you also don't want to allow the Hide action to trigger "auto-hidden" when you're just behind a lamppost the enemy literally just saw you go behind.
Another example I like is if a creature runs into another room; anything pursuing them knows they went into the room, and might have heard them recently enough to be certain they're still in there (didn't make it through to another room, out a window etc.). But if you dived behind a couch, would they know that's where you are, or should they have to guess or roll for it, even though you didn't take the Hide action?
A DM could rule it on the basis of how they think the enemy would behave, e.g- would they check the most obvious place first? Which I think is fair, whereas if the escapee did Hide they would need to roll to see if they go for something less obvious (e.g- the window is ajar, maybe they escaped out of that?), but that's all very loose and "whatever I feel like in the moment", heh.
I agree with most of your post i have a question about this part. If the creature cannot be seen and isn't making noise but is not hidden, how can it be detected?
This usually just falls to DM fiat for me; I mean, if creatures are simply staying unseen/unheard then you could run that as repeatedly taking the Hide action if you wanted to, but that seems tedious to me, and it introduces some possible cases where you don't have an action free to do it (so does the enemy suddenly know you're there?).
I usually prefer to just wait until someone does something, i.e- an unknown creature tries to change location, or the unaware creature decides to start searching the area (guard on patrol) or has a reason to be suspicious (told to meet someone but they haven't shown yet) etc. Though I might call for some checks against passive Perception if time is elapsing to see a character makes a noise by accident or such.
Definitely a very trigger aspect of the game to run!
Haravikk Thanks for the clarificatoin. Personally as DM (and player) for that i prefer relying on Dexterity (Stealth) checks rather than DM fiat or arbitrary DC to roll Wisdom (Perception) check against. As to the question if the DM let it happen with no action required, i usually always require the Hide action, which doesn't need be done repeatedly since the check is used until you are discovered or you stop hiding.
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I agree - when I used the word "cover" it includes darkness/invisibility or even blindness - anything that makes the creature trying to hide unseen by the creature it is hiding from.
However, "hidden" can be determined on a case by case basis. Some creatures may detect the hidden creature if their passive perception is sufficiently high and others may not. There are some rules examples that support that viewpoint.
In the surprise rules at the beginning of combat:
"If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
The stealth rolls are resolved individually against each creature. Some creatures may notice a hidden creature and others may not. The statement "Instead, in 5e, every combatant is either hidden or they are not. " is clearly not correct since some creatures can be surprised when they notice a threat and others may not be. One of the creatures noticing a hidden creature clearly does not remove that hidden status for everyone since some can be surprised while others are not, precisely because some become aware of a hidden threat and others do not.
In addition, your rules citation for passive perception:
"Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score"
Passive perception is entirely worded from the perspective of a single creature. IF that creature's passive perception is sufficiently high then that creature notices you. It does NOT say if your passive perception is sufficiently high then EVERY creature notices you.
Although it may appear to be more work, hidden status is resolved on a case by case basis against each opponent individually so that a creature may be hidden from some creatures and not hidden from other creatures. In practice, I have never found resolving stealth effects on a case by case basis to be an issue.
However, I agree that a DM can choose to run it however they like and the wording of the text in chapter 7 would seem to indicate that after being noticed by a creature the hidden creature may need to make another stealth roll to remain hidden from other creatures that may not have noticed them yet.
A lot of this was good except for the conclusions that were drawn. In my previous post, I specifically called out the surprise mechanic at the end precisely because it does cause confusion when conflated with the rules for hiding. But the logic for surprise is actually a little bit different than the logic for hiding.
Being hidden is not really determined on a case by case basis. The stealth role that is used to attempt to hide persists until you are no longer hidden. What does occur on a case by case basis is the perception of each enemy that tries to find you.
Surprise is a separate mechanic that only occurs at the start of combat. Some group members can be surprised while others in the same group are not. But this has to do with the perception scores within the group to notice a threat, not with whether the monsters in question remain hidden.
Example: 4 goblins (#1, #2, #3 and #4) are hiding in the bushes attempting to set up a surprise ambush against a party of 4 PCs (A, B, C and D). When combat begins, PC A and PC B notice that there's a threat and therefore are not surprised. Since the goblins share the same stealth roll, the DM might determine that PC A and PC B detected all 4 of the goblins. At this point, none of the goblins are hidden, even though PC C and PC D are surprised. Those two PCs were unable to notice a threat at the start of combat. However, as combat begins, none of the goblins are hidden.
Alternatively, maybe the DM decides that these 4 goblins were all spread out and PC A and PC B only noticed one of them (goblin #1). When combat begins, goblin #2, goblin #3 and goblin #4 are all hidden, but PC A and PC B are still not surprised because they noticed a threat. PC C and PC D are surprised by failing to notice a threat, but when combat begins goblin #1 is not hidden and goblins #2, #3 and #4 are hidden.
So, just because some PCs are surprised does not affect which enemies remain hidden. There is nothing in the rules to indicate otherwise.
To follow through with the alternative setup a bit more -- during the first round of combat PC C and PC D cannot act on their turn because they were surprised. During the first round, all of the goblins attack and then all of the goblins fail their bonus action hide checks. For argument's sake, suppose C and D are last in initiative. The goblins have acted. At this point, none of the goblins are hidden and yet C and D still cannot act. Again, the surprise mechanic is separate from the hiding rules.
When it comes to the wording for passive perception -- you are correct, it is worded from the perspective of a single creature. That's because each perception check is separate for each creature who attempts to find you. But, remember the rule for hiding: Your stealth roll persists . . .
When you are discovered you are no longer hidden, the rule on that is clear even though it's simplistic and unrealistic.
Also, your last point which says:
"after being noticed by a creature the hidden creature may need to make another stealth roll to remain hidden from other creatures that may not have noticed them yet"
That's just not a thing. You cannot hide in plain sight. If an enemy is looking right at you and is potentially engaged in combat with you, you cannot simultaneously hide from other combatants. You are simply not hidden at that point and cannot hide.
Ok, so lastly let me just tack on a point of my own. I think it was brought up earlier in the thread but it's worth repeating. Successfully hiding or remaining hidden in the middle of combat is not actually that big of a deal. It cannot lead to surprise which only occurs at the start of combat. The only benefit is that your location becomes unknown so you cannot be directly targeted by an attack or a spell. Assuming the creature attempting to hide did so by ducking behind total cover, that creature would still gain the benefits of total cover which includes being untargetable by weapon ranged attacks and by spells that require line of sight or the ability to see the target. You'd still get the advantage / disadvantage bonuses of being an unseen attacker or target. You just wouldn't be hidden (location unknown). Mechanically, this is really only a very minor upgrade to simply being unseen behind total cover.
Why are the goblins not hidden from PC C & D if they failed to notice them? You can be hidden from some creature but not from others if said creatures failed to perceive you. If PC C & D failed to notice all goblins and are surprised by the goblins, they should still be hidden from them.
EDIT I see your reasoning "you are hidden until you are discovered" is in reference to every single observer and not a general condition that ends. The goblins have not been discovered by PC C & D and are therefore still hidden from them.
Well no I actually meant that it's a general "condition" that ends. That's how I read all of the rules together -- the relevant sections of Chapters 7, 8 and 9.
Hiding rules are tough because various related concepts are all spread out. Chapter 7 has discussions of ability checks, contests, passive checks, group checks, dexterity stealth checks, and the rules for Hiding. Chapter 8 has rules for stealth and perception while travelling including the effects of travel pace, marching order, splitting the party, and performing activities other than noticing threats. Chapter 8 also gets into the effects of vision and light including how heavily obscured an area is due to environmental conditions such as darkness, fog or foliage. Chapter 9 discusses other types of cover as well as the rules for surprise and initiative, taking the Hide action during combat, and the rules for Unseen Attackers and Targets. It's too much to try to quote in a single post. But we really need to be carefully reading all of these sections to get a good big picture grasp on how stealth and hiding is supposed to work in this game. Then we need to examine each of these sections one by one to see if the rules are really telling us to track every individual pair of combatants (in both directions) throughout the combat to determine who is hidden from whom at every moment.
When I read through all of these rules I see nothing that suggests that combatants are ever hidden from some enemies but not others and no one has quoted anything in the rules that says to do it that way.
The closest that we come to seeing that is in the rules for surprise. But that has already been explained. Surprise only occurs at one moment in time before combat begins (before initiative is rolled). The important part of the surprise rule is here:
This means that at the moment in time that the hiding group is attempting to surprise their enemies, every individual hiding creature's stealth is indeed compared against every individual enemy's perception. To be surprised, an enemy must fail to detect every threat -- if a threat is noticed then that enemy is not surprised. But conversely, to remain hidden AFTER this moment in time, a hiding creature must remain hidden against every enemy. We know this because the rules for hiding state:
Again, the rules for surprise are different than the rules for hiding. Sneaking or hiding is often a prerequisite for achieving surprise but the rules and mechanics for determining who is surprised and who is hidden are different.
It will often be the case that creatures are hidden well enough to surprise some enemies but then are not hidden when combat begins.
I think the Surprise rules get you confused on how hiding works, they're independant and being hidden is not a condition but a status in respect to another creature resulting from a contest either noticing you or failing to discover you, and thus remaining hidden from it, where with Surprise the moment you notice a threat you aren't Surprised.
Your posts are baffling sometimes! I have just spent several posts explaining how the surprise rules are confusing other people about how hiding works!
There are rules for how to become hidden, what it means to be hidden and under what circumstances you are no longer hidden as follows:
How to become hidden:
What does it mean when you are hidden?
Lastly, the rules for remaining hidden and for when a creature is no longer hidden:
None of these above rules say or even imply that who is hidden from whom should be tracked on an ongoing basis. There is only how to become hidden, what it means when you are hidden, how to remain hidden, and rules that determine if you are no longer hidden. That's it.
Ok, so hopefully this won't confuse the issue, but I will now attempt to compare the wording in the above rules with the wording that appears in the rules for surprise, demonstrating that the wording for those rules is intentionally completely different -- again, hiding and surprise are totally separate game mechanics.
Within the rules for surprise, we have wording like this:
So, in the case of the surprise rules, the rules are written deliberately and explicitly to describe the procedure of comparing each and every ally check against each and every enemy check, one pairing after the other and all the way through. The result of this procedure is that some individuals within a group might be surprised -- the rules go out of their way to reemphasize that point.
The hiding rules do NOT do this. There is no wording anything like this that indicates that hiding consists of ongoing individual pairings that should be tracked. Instead, the hiding rules are clarifying that your initial stealth roll persists while you remain hiding and more and more enemies continue searching for you (or not). However, this stealth roll only remains in effect "Until you are discovered or you stop hiding".
Hopefully this explanation has been helpful -- unfortunately I'm really bad at finding the related Sage Advice posts but there was definitely a post from JC that confirms the viewpoint that a creature is either hidden from all enemies or is not hidden from all enemies. Maybe someone can find and post it.
Yes the wording was quoted;
You also already said it was earlier:
You should put aside the Surprises rules since Hiding and Surprise are two distinct rules. You can hide in combat after the first round for exemple, so if you do so, not because some of your enemies succeeded at the Dexterity (Stealth) vs Wisdom (Perception) contest that you may not be hidden to the others that failed to notice you. Because hiding is all about perception or the lack of thereof;
Hmm, I'm having trouble following the point you were trying to make there. Are you still saying that in combat a creature can be hidden from some enemies while not hidden from other enemies? That's not the rule. The rule is: You are either hidden or you are not.
For reference, I found the Sage Advice that I was thinking of which agrees with what I've been saying. You may have to scroll down and open some replies to get to the relevant question:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/suppose-i-hide-in-combat-and-im-not-found/
Yes i'm saying you can be hidden from some creatures and not others and the Dev tweet doesn't contradict it but reiterate ""until discovered"" which is a status an individual basis as per creature's Perception vs Stealth contest and not a general condition that ends the moment one creature notice you. In other word, you are hidden from any creature until discovered by it.
You seem to agree about the Perception part being individual but not the other end of the contest part which is Stealth. To go back to Surprise rules, any creature that doesn't notice a hidden threat is surprised at the start of the encounter, meaning they're still hidden from them because they haven't discovered them having failed to notice them.
Otherwise the highest Passive Perception from someone in a group of PC or monsters would basically let all the rest of the group notice a hidden creature. Instead you compare the Dexterity (Stealth) check with each creature's Perception rather than the highest of them.
This thread seems to be about whether a rogue - who puts in the effort, and succeeds on his rolls - should be allowed one sneak attack on his turn. But why would anyone want to do that. It is, after all, that thing rogues get to do in combat: Make one, somewhat hefty attack, straight to the spleen. Frankly, I think the rules just needlessly overcomplicated this one. It should read: Your first attack each round is a sneak attack, it goes straight in the spleen. You're welcome to roleplay this in some way, run and hide, flank or throw powder in the face of your enemy - it doesn't matter though. You do more damage, the end.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
From my experience, the main reason for a character to hide in combat is either offensive to attack with advantage or defensive to be attacked with disadvantage and force the attacker to select a space/square to target. Now to attempt to hide you generally must not be seen clearly meaning you should already have the benefits granted to Unseen Attackers and Targets but there are some situation where it may not be the case such as for an Elf's Mask of the Wild, an Halfling's Naturally Stealthy or one with the Skulker feat letting one hide while only lightly obscured by natural phenomenon or larger creature.
Unless you don't need use an action, or be invisible, heavily obscured or otherwise unseen, it's very rare to see one hide in combat. #YMMV
Well, I guess we'll disagree about what the dev tweet said then, but I've seen this explained in multiple sources. Being hidden is indeed a general "condition" that ends the moment one creature discovers you. We can only quote it so many times, but the critical portion of the rule says this:
It's wordy, but if we parse that sentence correctly we see that it means that the stealth check that you made persists round after round -- but that check is essentially thrown away and no longer applies to the game as soon as "you are discovered or you stop hiding".
The surprise rules work totally differently. For surprise, comparisons are made at one moment in time. This occurs before combat begins. It's step 1 in the "Combat Step-By-Step" sidebar, which does not repeat and occurs well before rolling for initiative and taking turns. Because of the timing of how this works, your statement here is problematic:
This is only true during step 1 while determining surprise. Once initiative is rolled and combatants are taking turns, those monsters might no longer be hidden if they were discovered, even though some individuals may have already been surprised.
In fact, this is exactly what often happens. Surprise has already been determined and now some of the combatants who were hidden to create the surprise are now no longer hidden when combat begins if indeed anyone noticed them.
Again, rules for hiding are intentionally simplified and unrealistic in 5e just like many of the other rules in the system.
Ok, fair enough.
I've decided to keep the discussion going a bit just because I think it's a fun topic . . .
One other point that I wanted to make is that I think some players also confuse being hidden with being unseen. In the case of being unseen, I DO believe that this should be adjudicated separately for each possible pair of combatants -- this is often simply a line of sight issue and can be easily evaluated at any moment during combat . . . there is nothing to keep track of over time per se. If an enemy is located behind something such that my line of sight to that enemy is blocked, then that enemy is currently unseen to me, but might be seen by my ally. That makes perfect sense. And there are lots of advantages to being unseen in combat as detailed in the rules for "Unseen Attackers and Targets". Really, the only difference between this and being hidden is whether or not your location is known. My interpretation is that as soon as one of my allies discovers you, your location becomes known to me even if I still cannot see you. Again, it's a simplification and doesn't make perfect sense in every situation, but I believe that's what is written in the rules.
Another quick example: An ally and I encounter two goblins in a field and engage in combat. Just behind the goblins in the field is a large evergreen tree, 15 feet in diameter at its base. During the fight, one of the goblins gets away and runs behind the tree and disappears from view and from our sense of hearing and becomes hidden -- we lose track of exactly where that goblin is located. Now, my partner and I quickly kill the other goblin. We turn to each other and ask ourselves "Hey, what about that one goblin who ran behind that tree? He must still be back there somewhere." My partner decides to go check it out and for whatever reason I decide to remain exactly where I am. My partner moves around the corner, looks behind the tree, points emphatically to one side of the tree and shouts "Hey! There it is! Just behind the tree on the right side!" And he raises his sword and prepares to attack. At this point the goblin is no longer hidden. I still cannot see it, but I know exactly where it is.
Anyways, I just thought I'd throw that out there.
Its a bit more murky because of the way the differents infos is all laid out. Pieces of it is in the Hide rules, others in the Unseen Attacks and Targets. Personally, i rule that making your location unknown requires to be hidden with a successful Dexterity (Stealth) check based on the Devs tweet on the subject.
@wax_eagle can you target a creature who is obscured but not hidden? More precisely, is hidden the only way to conceal position?
@JeremyECrawford Being hidden is the by-the-book way to conceal your position. The DM may decide that other methods can also conceal it.
@fritomuncher My PC uses the invisibility spell, does he auto hide or do I still need to take the hide action to not be targeted?
@JeremyECrawford The invisibility spell doesn't automatically hide you; you still make noise.
@quadhund But is the invisible person considered hidden as a result of casting invisibility?
@JeremyECrawford Invisible = unseen. Hidden = unseen and unheard.
Jeremy Crawford: When you're in invisible it doesn't mean your silent. If you really want to make sure people don't know where you are, you need to hide, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check and you're hoping that they are not only not gonna notice any visual traces of where you are but they are not gonna hear you
Unseen = Unseen
+ Location unknownnHidden = Unseen and Unheard + Location unknown
It's definitely an area that needs to be explained and set out better in OneD&D, as the Sage Advice/external advice that we have is every bit as vague as the rules themselves. The Unseen Attackers and Targets rule mentions attacking a target's location, but that's not really a concept mentioned anywhere else in the rules; you attack creatures, or you pick locations, you never really attack locations.
When running stealth in games I like to try and run it in terms of two questions:
To me awareness comes down to visibility and audibility (unseen and unheard), and while the Hide action can help with these, it's actually more about avoiding giving away your location, rather than being unseen and unheard in the first place. If a character is in cover and keeping quiet, and an enemy doesn't know it's there, then there's no reason to declare the Hide action; a DM can just ask you to roll Stealth naturally if they feel it's necessary to do.
Crawford's tweet about being invisible isn't super helpful because while being invisible doesn't mean you make no sound, what if you're simply making no sound to begin with? E.g- you go invisible using Subtle spell and don't move or do anything noisy, why should you need to take the Hide action to remain quiet? However, if you go invisible and don't move, but an enemy saw you go invisible, why should hiding make you harder to find? The enemy still knows your space, and can choose to attack it (with disadvantage) if they want to do; they don't need to beat your Stealth to do that if they know where you were, and don't believe you moved. The question in this case is are they right to believe you didn't move?
To me the purpose of the Hide action isn't shutting up, it's about being able to move quietly; because there's no point just going behind cover and hiding, unless you can move somewhere. Because if you just go behind a pillar and hide, but there's nowhere else for you to be, the enemy can just go over to the pillar and attack you anyway, as they still know where you are. The reason you want to hide as you enter into cover, is if you can then use that cover and any adjoining darkness etc. to move to a new location that the enemy is unaware of, i.e- you reduce an enemy to only knowing where you vanished, and having to guess where you might be (unless they beat your Stealth roll to hear where you went).
Essentially the way I run it is this:
But it's hard to argue that this is what the Rules As Written say because they actually say so very little; for example, how do we determine if a creature is audible or not? It seems it's entirely down to a table on a particular DM screen that not every DM will own. How accurate is a creature's ability to hear? Is literally any audible sound equivalent to having blindsight? I think it's obvious that it shouldn't be, but people do try and run it as every creature effectively having blindsight as long they aren't deafened.
I think as long as you don't successfully Hide a creature that was aware of you remains aware that you're nearby, and can search etc., hiding is more about convincing a creature you either aren't where you were, or aren't in the area at all anymore. Otherwise it should be possible to break awareness as creatures move behind obstructions/distractions etc. naturally, but your enemies still know you're there (and roughly where).
There's just so much missing to make this area into proper rules, so the DMs are basically left to fill in all the blanks. I'm happy with the way I run it, because it makes sense to me and I think gives a good balance of rewarding the use of the Hide action, without granting creatures hyper-awareness when that action isn't used, and I suspect it's the intended way to do, i.e- common sense awareness in as much detail as the situation requires. But it'd be nice if the rules spelled it out properly, and just had a page that said "Stealth" at the top and told is everything we need to know.
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Great points Haravikk!
I totally agree that for such a common and fundamental aspect of gameplay it's a shame that the rules on it are so unclear. I also agree that the rules should have never mentioned the possibility of attacking a location (guessing) -- a creature just should not be targetable if its location is unknown.
I love this interpretation and I think that it's important for DM's to take this part of the rule seriously:
So, when we're talking about a player wanting to take a Hide action in the middle of a battle by running from an area where they could clearly be seen in order to go stand behind a pillar to "hide", maybe the DM should just respond to that with something like "You can move there and you'd have cover and you'd break line of sight, but you cannot hide there". I like it.
I think it's reasonable to run a game like this but I still think that RAW makes this more simplistic -- that if a creature's location is known by any enemy then it is known by all enemies, even if not all of them can currently see or hear that creature.
I think that this is meant to be determined by the dice. For some out-of-combat situations, I think that a DM can just decide that you are not audible and therefore are automatically stealthy / hidden (auto-success, no check required). Or, you just made so much noise that you auto-fail and are not hidden. But in an attempt to Hide during the chaos of battle I think that the idea is that there is always a chance that you are too loud in that moment -- it's uncertain and the actual level of acceptable noise varies. So, maybe you roll a 2 but the monster has a perception of 0 for whatever reason -- so in this case you were pretty much shouting across the room but the monster's ears were totally plugged or maybe there was another loud noise happening simultaneously. But another time you roll a 19 but the monster has a perception of 20 which means that he could pretty much hear you breathing or hear your heart beating or something.
Also, reading your response made me think of something that I hadn't really thought much about -- that taking the Hide action during battle requires . . . your action! Or for some it can be done as a Bonus Action. In a way that's a bit strange. Like, I am giving up my chance to attack or cast a spell and instead I am using all of my energy during these 6 seconds to just get quiet and potentially move a bit while unseen and unheard. In other words, running behind total cover and becoming unseen is free, but doing that exact same thing quietly requires your entire action to attempt -- maybe unsuccessfully! Hmmm.
I agree with most of your post i have a question about this part. If the creature cannot be seen and isn't making noise but is not hidden, how can it be detected?
I don't think it's really defined anywhere either way; the Surprise rules for example aren't all-or-nothing,individual creatures are either surprised or not, so I tend to take my cues from that for awareness.
That said, enemies have the same ability to communicate (if they can) that players do, so they could issue warnings "someone's skulking in the shadows over there" etc., I prefer to try and run things that way because it still gives you those exciting little windows of opportunity where you're spotted, but not by your intended target so might still get a Sneak Attack in against them if you're fast enough.
I think it definitely falls to individual DMs though; trying to keep a handle of which enemy is aware of which players is fairly manageable when you've only got one enemy, but when it comes to groups the "hive mind" method has definite advantages for the DM's sanity!
This is a definite part of the dilmena, as you don't want to make it too easy to hide after doing something like attacking, or it means enemies might not be able to give chase and attack back, but you also don't want to allow the Hide action to trigger "auto-hidden" when you're just behind a lamppost the enemy literally just saw you go behind.
Another example I like is if a creature runs into another room; anything pursuing them knows they went into the room, and might have heard them recently enough to be certain they're still in there (didn't make it through to another room, out a window etc.). But if you dived behind a couch, would they know that's where you are, or should they have to guess or roll for it, even though you didn't take the Hide action?
A DM could rule it on the basis of how they think the enemy would behave, e.g- would they check the most obvious place first? Which I think is fair, whereas if the escapee did Hide they would need to roll to see if they go for something less obvious (e.g- the window is ajar, maybe they escaped out of that?), but that's all very loose and "whatever I feel like in the moment", heh.
This usually just falls to DM fiat for me; I mean, if creatures are simply staying unseen/unheard then you could run that as repeatedly taking the Hide action if you wanted to, but that seems tedious to me, and it introduces some possible cases where you don't have an action free to do it (so does the enemy suddenly know you're there?).
I usually prefer to just wait until someone does something, i.e- an unknown creature tries to change location, or the unaware creature decides to start searching the area (guard on patrol) or has a reason to be suspicious (told to meet someone but they haven't shown yet) etc. Though I might call for some checks against passive Perception if time is elapsing to see a character makes a noise by accident or such.
Definitely a very trigger aspect of the game to run!
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Haravikk Thanks for the clarificatoin. Personally as DM (and player) for that i prefer relying on Dexterity (Stealth) checks rather than DM fiat or arbitrary DC to roll Wisdom (Perception) check against. As to the question if the DM let it happen with no action required, i usually always require the Hide action, which doesn't need be done repeatedly since the check is used until you are discovered or you stop hiding.