I usually prefer to just wait until someone does something,
This is also a great point and I think the DM should try to do this when possible just to avoid retcon / metagaming from their players.
Out-Of-Combat Example:
DM: Ok, you've reached the entrance to dragon's lair -- it's a large open room with some of the larger items of the hoard piled near the walls, and the treasure that you're looking for is on the other side of the room. The dragon is a few hundred feet away and is busy rearranging its treasure. What do you do?
Player: Ok, the rest of the group is staying here. I am going to sneak past the dragon and steal the treasure.
(Important Moment)
Option 1: DM: Ok, you begin to sneak into the room, give me a stealth check.
Player rolls a 2: Player: Oh no! I take a couple of steps, realize that I'm making too much noise and quickly duck back through the entrance. Let's try something else guys.
or
Option 2: DM: Ok, you begin to sneak into the room. You stick close to the walls, using various items as cover and concealment. You are almost to the other side, moving past the dragon who is now about 20 feet away. The dragon lifts its head and looks around. Give me a stealth check.
Player rolls a 2: Player: Oh no! (and actions have consequences)
Now, Taking the Hide Action in the Middle of Combat Example:
Player: Ok, I took my shot with my bow. Now, as my Bonus Action I want to duck behind these bushes and try to hide.
DM: Ok, make a stealth check
Player rolls a 2: Player: Hmm, ok that's not going to work. Never mind. I use the rest of my movement to run to this other area next to my allies.
So, maybe it's not strictly RAW, but would the above example run better if the DM just said: "Ok, you are positioned behind those bushes and are trying to hide. Anything else on your turn?" Then, we move on to other creature turns and if it becomes relevant later on the DM can say something like: "Ok, the monster turns towards those bushes and begins to flee. You were trying to hide behind those bushes -- make a stealth check." Again, it's probably not exactly RAW to do it that way but I like it.
As far as the rules go, a creature trying to hide needs to be behind cover and typically unseen.
This isn't completely accurate. Of course the DM decides when hiding is possible, but generally a creature can attempt to hide without cover if they are invisible or are standing in total darkness, for example.
It's simply not true that you need to be hidden from *all* foes to be hidden from *any* foe. RAW doesn't work that way, and neither does real life. RAW-wise, whether or not a foe notices you or knows your exact location, that's for the dice to decide.
This is incorrect, the rules as written do not say this.
In 5e, many rules are simplified at the expense of realism. The hiding rules are one example.
Suppose you had 10 PC / allies in a fight against 10 monsters in a large room full of pillars -- for example purposes assume everyone has a bonus action Hide ability and is using it every turn when ducking behind a pillar which provides some cover from at least somebody. With your proposal we would have to keep a 10 x 10 spreadsheet with 100 entries for who is hidden from whom at all times which must be updated in multiple places after every time somebody takes a turn. And another similar spreadsheet to determine if that 2nd person is actually hidden from the 1st, so 200 entries tracked and updated in total.
Instead, in 5e, every combatant is either hidden or they are not. See how much simpler that is? Not super realistic but better for game flow.
The most relevant rules are in Chapter 7:
Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
. . .
Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score
This means that if you are not discovered and you don't stop hiding, the check that you made persists -- you don't have to make multiple stealth rolls when multiple monsters try to find you. However, the caveat is "until you are discovered" and that's it. If you are discovered, your roll is no longer contested by the check of any creature (enemy). Therefore, if you are discovered by any enemy, you are no longer hidden. (And yet, if this begins combat, you might still surprise some opponents but not others. That's seemingly inconsistent but those are the rules.)
Can you walk me through how what you wrote contradicts what I wrote? I'm not seeing the conflict here.
I avoid possible metagaming with contests by using the following ruling:
Opposed Check: Contest check such as Dexterity (Stealth) or Charisma (Deception) check are made only when the contest occur. For exemple, if a player character attempt to disguise or hide, no check is actually made until another creature can spot it somehow and contest check.
"2) The rules say nothing about hiding be an all or nothing activity. There is nothing in the rules that says you can't be hidden from some creatures and not from others so taking a hide action to be hidden from one creature is not prevented by being in line of view of a team mate.
3) Hiding does NOT mean that you have somehow vanished.The defender simply doesn't know exactly where you are and as a result, your first attack will have advantage. This is what the rules say ... a lot of the confusion happens when you try to logically explain why it happens."
Can you provide actual rules clarification on these points?
Trying to find EXACT RAW for if you come out of Stealth (you are hidden) and move to an enemy to attack them... Does your first strike gain advantage, and therefor, Sneak Attack? OR Does you moving out into the possible sight of the enemy stop your Stealth (Hidden bonus) and therefor you do not get advantage for the attack?
First, keep in mind that advantage when attacking comes from being unseen, not from being hidden.
The text from the books that most directly answers your question appears in Chapter 7, in the Hiding sidebar:
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.
First, keep in mind that advantage when attacking comes from being unseen, not from being hidden.
The text from the books that most directly answers your question appears in Chapter 7, in the Hiding sidebar:
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.
The thing about “unseen” is that, for the purposes of combat, unless a creature is Invisible or the target is for some reason considered to have the Blinded condition they are assumed to be constantly aware of everything happening around them. “I come from behind cover and backstab them” shouldn’t work in most combat because once you’re out of cover anyone with line of sight is assumed to be aware of your position. The problem with the distracted creature clause is that what constitutes “distracted” for its purposes isn’t defined beyond DM fiat, which suggests to me the idea is more a DM tool than a player one.
"2) The rules say nothing about hiding be an all or nothing activity. There is nothing in the rules that says you can't be hidden from some creatures and not from others so taking a hide action to be hidden from one creature is not prevented by being in line of view of a team mate.
3) Hiding does NOT mean that you have somehow vanished.The defender simply doesn't know exactly where you are and as a result, your first attack will have advantage. This is what the rules say ... a lot of the confusion happens when you try to logically explain why it happens."
Can you provide actual rules clarification on these points?
Trying to find EXACT RAW for if you come out of Stealth (you are hidden) and move to an enemy to attack them... Does your first strike gain advantage, and therefor, Sneak Attack? OR Does you moving out into the possible sight of the enemy stop your Stealth (Hidden bonus) and therefor you do not get advantage for the attack?
Please and TY. ~Mad
The rules don't say anything specifically about hiding being all or nothing.
In terms of rules:
"The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
Surprise is evaluated using exactly the same procedure as being hidden. The stealth score of anyone hiding is compared to the passive perception score of the opposing side. Any creature or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised. This means that some creatures can notice a threat and others not notice them. Since comparing stealth to passive perception is the same procedure used to find hidden creatures ... one could infer that creatures remain hidden to some opponents even though they have been noticed by others. ... otherwise a creature that noticed a hiding creature would just yell "there is a creature over there" and negate surprise for their entire side. However, it doesn't work that way.
In the hiding rules:
"Passive Perception. When you hide, there’s a chance someone will notice you even if they aren’t searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature’s passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature’s Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties."
The rule says "such a creature" NOT every creature associated with the creature that notices you.
"When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check’s total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence."
This rule is more ambiguous. Your stealth check is opposed by the perception check of the specific creature that is looking for you. However, the rule does not specify whether discovery reveals you only to the person looking or to everyone. Considering the wording of the other rules, I interpret that as that location only being revealed to the person looking.
Keep in mind that hiding and stealth is completely irrelevant if you can be seen clearly. You can't hide at all if you can be seen. Some races and feats allow hiding while lightly obscured but in general you need to be heavily obscured in order to hide. "You can’t hide from a creature that can see you clearly"
In terms of what hiding means in game terms - it means you are no longer aware of the movements of the target. This means that they might still be behind the obstacle where you last saw them or they might not. As long as the creature that tries to hide is invisible or sufficiently obscured then their location becomes indeterminate. The reason I mention this is some folks argue that if a character keeps hiding behind the same tree then it doesn't work because the creature they are hiding from still knows where they are. However, that is a house rule. The rules themselves discuss only making a successful stealth check while being sufficiently obscured from the creature you are hiding from. It doesn't matter that they might have a good idea where you are .. what matters is that they can no longer properly anticipate an attack, if there is an attack coming from there and you haven't moved elsewhere. This is my in game explanation for why the hiding character still gets advantage on their attack roll even though the creature knows they are behind the tree.
Mechanically, all that matters is:
1) Check appropriate cover - either heavily or lightly obscured depending on the character abilities. If neither then hiding is not possible.
2) Make a stealth check and compare to passive perception of creatures that can't see you.
3) If successful then the character is hidden from the target and will have advantage on attack rolls from the location of hiding. If the character leaves the hidden location and moves closer to the target hoping to still have advantage then the following rule applies:
"In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen."
Hope that helps ... as always, different DMs may interpret the rules differently :)
The rules don't say anything specifically about hiding being all or nothing.
In my opinion they do. It appears in the Hiding sidebar of the PHB Chapter 7 when it says:
When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested . . .
The mechanic there is that you only have to roll the Stealth check one time and that total persists turn after turn and round after round until you are no longer hidden. Once you are discovered or you stop hiding, this stealth check is no longer valid. Hence, you are hidden from all or you are not hidden.
one could infer that creatures remain hidden to some opponents even though they have been noticed by others. ... otherwise a creature that noticed a hiding creature would just yell "there is a creature over there" and negate surprise for their entire side. However, it doesn't work that way.
In fact, this is indeed what happens with respect to hidden creatures during battle, so the inference above is incorrect. Determining exactly how this "communication" occurs is beyond the scope -- it is a rules simplification like many aspects of 5e.
The reason why this doesn't apply to the surprise rules is just a timing issue. The moment when surprise is determined is a snapshot in time that occurs only once -- right before combat. In Chapter 9 in a section called The Order of Combat and in a sidebar called Combat Step-By-Step, the flow of combat is explained. Step 1 is to determine surprise. This happens even before we roll for initiative. So, before any communication can occur, the attack is imminent and some creatures are already surprised -- some saw the ambush coming and others didn't, in that exact moment.
Suppose two groups encountered each other and we make the surprise check and some PCs are surprised while others are not. But then, for whatever reason, the monsters didn't actually do anything. We're not actually rolling for initiative because there is no combat happening. Maybe these monsters were being so quiet in their ambush position that they all fell asleep, for example. So now, almost right away I would say that the rest of the PCs are no longer surprised -- time is flowing and information is shared. The monsters cannot wake up 5 minutes later, attack the party, and expect for some of them to be surprised. Surprise only occurs at that one moment when an unexpected attack is happening from a threat that wasn't noticed quickly enough by some characters and they are caught off guard by it.
Eventually, other steps for combat are repeated until the combat ends -- taking turns and beginning the next round. So while combat is ongoing, turns are taken where creatures might move around to new positions and take various actions which can affect future turns and future rounds. So, during this stage, creatures can be hidden in one moment and then be discovered in the next moment and in the moment after that this new information can be used, and so on. It's a flow. Time is elapsing and things are changing during this phase (steps 4 and 5) of combat -- information is shared. But when surprise is determined before all of this, it's a single snapshot in time. Creatures who saw the ambush coming are not surprised and those who didn't see it coming are surprised. And that's it for surprise for the remainder of the combat.
"Passive Perception. When you hide, there’s a chance someone will notice you even if they aren’t searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature’s passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature’s Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties."
The rule says "such a creature" NOT every creature associated with the creature that notices you.
Of course that's what it says. Only the creature who is searching in that situation can make the perception check and only that creature's perception score / skill is relevant to the contest. The same is true in situations where passive perception applies. But once that contest occurs there is a possibility that the hidden creature is discovered, and if that happens then that creature's ongoing stealth check gets thrown away -- thus, the hidden creature becomes no longer hidden. It's a little weird and it's definitely a simplification, but that's what's going on.
"When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check’s total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence."
This rule is more ambiguous. Your stealth check is opposed by the perception check of the specific creature that is looking for you. However, the rule does not specify whether discovery reveals you only to the person looking or to everyone.
It does though. When we read this carefully, we see that this really isn't about the searching. It's about the mechanics of what happens "when you try to hide". The point that is being made here is that the stealth check that you are making persists. You don't have to keep rolling over and over again to stay hidden. No matter who tries to find you and how many times someone tries to find you, "that (original Stealth) check's total is contested". You don't roll for Stealth again just because a second person tries to find you -- you use the same Stealth check from before in this second contest. That is the concept that is being explained by this pair of sentences. The Stealth check remains in effect until you are discovered. It doesn't matter who discovered you, when they discovered you, how many attempts it took to discover you or any of that -- you are now discovered and the stealth check is no longer in effect. In other words, you can no longer use that Stealth check in any future Perception contests. It really does definitively say this, I promise.
what matters is that they can no longer properly anticipate an attack, if there is an attack coming from there and you haven't moved elsewhere. This is my in game explanation for why the hiding character still gets advantage on their attack roll even though the creature knows they are behind the tree.
Actually, according to the rules, it only matters that the attacker is unseen. They do not actually have to be hidden at all to gain advantage on their attack roll.
The only advantage of being hidden behind the tree instead of just being unseen behind the tree is that they cannot be targeted while hidden behind the tree because their location is unknown (in this case, it's possible that they couldn't be targeted anyway due to full cover in which case being hidden provides basically no benefit). Also, if the situation seems too weird because there was only one tree in a wide open field and we just watched the monster run behind it -- the DM can simply decide that "circumstances are [not] appropriate for hiding". In that case, they will be unseen (which is still really good) but not hidden since their location is known.
The mechanic there is that you only have to roll the Stealth check one time and that total persists turn after turn and round after round until you are no longer hidden. Once you are discovered or you stop hiding, this stealth check is no longer valid. Hence, you are hidden from all or you are not hidden.
If that was true it would be literally impossible for a group to stealth on enemies they're hidden from because they would be discovered by any allies not hidden from..
Logic imply you can be hidden from some creatures and not others. A contest to hide is on individual basis per creature's Perception vs Stealth and not a general condition that ends the moment one creature notice you. In other word, you are hidden from any creature until discovered by it.
The mechanic there is that you only have to roll the Stealth check one time and that total persists turn after turn and round after round until you are no longer hidden. Once you are discovered or you stop hiding, this stealth check is no longer valid. Hence, you are hidden from all or you are not hidden.
If that was true it would be literally impossible for a group to stealth on enemies they're hidden from because they would be discovered by any allies not hidden from..
I don't think I understand what you mean here. Are you talking about being hidden from your allies? We don't typically hide from our own allies.
Logic imply you can be hidden from some creatures and not others. A contest to hide is on individual basis per creature's Perception vs Stealth and not a general condition that ends the moment one creature notice you. In other word, you are hidden from any creature until discovered by it.
I agree that this is logical is some situations where allies might be distracted or preoccupied or engaged in battle or other activities during a combat or are spread very far apart from each other and so on.
I think there are at least three reasons why the rules were not written that way and instead the concept was simplified:
First, there was an overall design choice for 5e that rules should be streamlined and simplified for a lot of reasons.
Second, if individual pairings had to be tracked on an ongoing basis it could become very complex just for one game mechanic. You would potentially have to maintain TWO very large spreadsheets with hundreds of entries each. One to track whether PC 1 is hidden from Monster A and another to track whether Monster A is hidden from PC 1 and there would be rows and columns to track the intersections of every PC with every monster. Every time that anyone does anything, the entire spreadsheet would have to be updated. And this would have to be maintained turn after turn and round after round. It is high complexity and potentially bogs down the gameplay. Instead, we just mark a creature as "hidden". Then, when they are discovered we just remove this marker. Simple. Quick. It keeps things moving.
There is also a third reason which was hinted at earlier which has to do with the actual mechanics. The ONLY benefit to being hidden is that your location is unknown so that you cannot be directly targeted. When you attack someone else the benefits have to do with being Unseen, NOT hidden.
An example: I am standing right next to my ally in a room and we are looking around. My ally points and says "Hey, there's a monster under the bed!" Unless I move a couple of feet, for whatever reason I cannot quite see this monster under the bed from where I am standing. For simplicity, assume that this bed occupies a single 5x5 square. So, technically, I still cannot see or hear that monster. Is it still hidden from me though? Really? I know exactly where it is. Assume that we are not dealing with total cover. If the monster is not considered to be hidden, I can attack the monster. If it IS considered to be hidden, I can simply attack the square under the bed -- I am 100% certain that the monster is located in that square -- it's location is known. In this case, the result is exactly the same. Claiming that the monster remained hidden from me caused exactly zero benefit to that monster -- it did not matter at all. In this situation where the monster's location is known, it is more accurate to just say that the monster is not hidden.
Anyway, these are some of the reasons why the rules are written the way that they are. I understand that many players don't really want to see it for what it is because it's not "logical" and it is overly "simplified" and all of that -- and I agree with all of that. But the rules are what they are.
You obviously need to keep track of who you're hidden from, like any other Contest it's one creature opposing another and the check determine success or failure resulting from it.
Contest: Sometimes one character's or monster's efforts are directly opposed to another's. This can occur when both of them are trying to do the same thing and only one can succeed, such as attempting to snatch up a magic ring that has fallen on the floor.
This situation also applies when one of them is trying to prevent the other one from accomplishing a goal--for example, when a monster tries to force open a door that an adventurer is holding closed. In situations like these, the outcome is determined by a special form of ability check, called a contest.
Both participants in a contest make ability checks appropriate to their efforts. They apply all appropriate bonuses and penalties, but instead of comparing the total to a DC, they compare the totals of their two checks. The participant with the higher check total wins the contest. That character or monster either succeeds at the action or prevents the other one from succeeding.
If the contest results in a tie, the situation remains the same as it was before the contest. Thus, one contestant might win the contest by default. If two characters tie in a contest to snatch a ring off the floor, neither character grabs it. In a contest between a monster trying to open a door and an adventurer trying to keep the door closed, a tie means that the door remains shut.
I think our differing opinions .. both citing the exact same rules :) .. but interpreting them differently makes it pretty clear that the rules simply aren't clear enough. I don't think either of us is making our points just to argue .. we read the same text and reach different conclusions or interpretations. I agree with you that one way to read the stealth check rule is that the creature makes one stealth roll. When they are noticed by one creature then they aren't hidden but the rules don't really cover what that means and whether you can be hidden from some creatures but not others, or whether you are just hidden or you aren't. (the surprise rules aren't the same thing as hiding but they clearly make a case for noticing things being on an individual rather than a group basis).
The rules also don't explicitly state that every creature now knows where the hidden creature was (when one creature notices it), even if the others can't see it. That is the interpretation you prefer, that the creature's location becomes known to everyone as soon as is noticed by one other creature, and I can see that reading of it, I just don't agree with it :). The rule also doesn't explicitly state that hiding is on an individual basis - the main implication for this is that all of the hiding rules only discuss the creature making the check, not how much or what sort of information can be effectively shared with their team mates during a fight, and thus whether every other creature also learns the location when one creature does.
So .. it comes down to how the individual DM decides to run it since I think both interpretations agree with the limited information presented in the text.
----
One more comment ... :) ... you stated "Actually, according to the rules, it only matters that the attacker is unseen. They do not actually have to be hidden at all to gain advantage on their attack roll."
It is correct that they need to be unseen when they make the attack. Thus an invisible creature receives the benefit. However, standing behind a tree, and popping out to shoot does not receive advantage on the attack unless the creature has succeeded in hiding. (since they can be seen when they pop out).
Two rules:
"Hide
When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules for hiding. If you succeed, you gain certain benefits, as described in the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section later in this chapter."
"You can’t hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet.
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you."
Being unseen is a requirement for hiding (either heavily obscured in most cases or lightly obscured for certain races or feats). The Hide action provides the benefits of an Unseen Attackers and Targets.
If someone can stand behind a tree, poke their head out and shoot at advantage because they were unseen - then why have the hide action at all? Why would the hide action say a character gains the benefit of being unseen if they succeed on such a check?
My reading is that because "In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you." ... thus if a creature pops out of cover to shoot or move towards a target then they are noticed unless they are hidden in which case they gain the benefit of being an unseen attacker.
However, due to the ambiguity in the rules, I can see other interpretations :)
You obviously need to keep track of who you're hidden from, like any other Contest it's one creature opposing another and the check determine success or failure resulting from it.
Contest: Sometimes one character's or monster's efforts are directly opposed to another's. This can occur when both of them are trying to do the same thing and only one can succeed, such as attempting to snatch up a magic ring that has fallen on the floor.
This situation also applies when one of them is trying to prevent the other one from accomplishing a goal--for example, when a monster tries to force open a door that an adventurer is holding closed. In situations like these, the outcome is determined by a special form of ability check, called a contest.
Both participants in a contest make ability checks appropriate to their efforts. They apply all appropriate bonuses and penalties, but instead of comparing the total to a DC, they compare the totals of their two checks. The participant with the higher check total wins the contest. That character or monster either succeeds at the action or prevents the other one from succeeding.
If the contest results in a tie, the situation remains the same as it was before the contest. Thus, one contestant might win the contest by default. If two characters tie in a contest to snatch a ring off the floor, neither character grabs it. In a contest between a monster trying to open a door and an adventurer trying to keep the door closed, a tie means that the door remains shut.
Well, I definitely disagree with the conclusion that you are drawing from the rules for a contest. The key thing to remember about a contest is that it is an event that is happening at a moment in time. In many cases a contest determines if the status quo remains in effect or if something has changed. This is exactly the case in stealth. One complication is that in the case of hiding, the stealth check that is used is ongoing for all future contests until something changes.
Consider the case when a door is closed and one creature tries to hold it closed and another creature on the other side attempts to push or pull the door open. We might call for an opposed strength contest. Depending on who wins, the door might remain closed. If this happens, maybe another creature attempts to open the door and we have another contest. And again, and again. One of these times, the door might be successfully opened. At that point, the door is open. It is not closed vs some creatures and open vs some other creatures. The door is no longer closed and that's it. You could attempt to close the door again later (just like you can attempt to hide again later), but for right now, the door is open.
In another scenario, a thief must sneak past 5 guards who are all actively searching the area in order to breech the castle undetected. In the case of stealth, a single roll is used and it persists for every future contest until no longer sneaking. (I'm assuming the rules for hiding are the same as the rules for sneaking, which has also been debated.) So, each of these potentially 5 contests will each occur at their own moment, but the sneaking "condition" is ongoing. However, as soon as one guard detects the thief, the alarm is sounded and the portcullis is closed. You are no longer sneaking into the castle -- you have been discovered. The status quo is broken. Again, lots of contests are about maintaining the status quo or changing it.
Another way to think of it is that if you are already hidden then that is the status quo and you must be discovered for that to change. If instead you are already discovered and then you attempt to hide, the status quo is that you are discovered and you must successfully hide for that to change. This is especially important in the case of a tie between the stealth roll and the perception roll -- in a tie, the status quo is maintained.
I think our differing opinions .. both citing the exact same rules :) .. but interpreting them differently makes it pretty clear that the rules simply aren't clear enough. I don't think either of us is making our points just to argue .. we read the same text and reach different conclusions or interpretations.
Yeah, I agree with you on this. It's funny, this is one of those times where the text actually seems pretty clear to me, but the fact that so many experienced players are not interpreting it the same way must mean that it's not clear enough -- hopefully future versions will improve the explanations because this is a really core mechanic to gameplay, it should be spelled out quite a bit better.
But, for example, I can see that we can grammatically rearrange the pair of sentences while maintaining the same meaning like this:
"When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence."
becomes:
"When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. That check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence until you are discovered or you stop hiding."
That is the interpretation you prefer, that the creature's location becomes known to everyone as soon as is noticed by one other creature, and I can see that reading of it, I just don't agree with it :).
Honestly, I'm not even sure that I prefer it to be this way. It's just what I think the rule is. There are pros and cons to both approaches. One is simpler and faster, the other is more realistic and tactical. If the rules provided these two options as a choice, it might even be something that you run one way for one campaign and another way for another campaign.
If someone can stand behind a tree, poke their head out and shoot at advantage because they were unseen - then why have the hide action at all? Why would the hide action say a character gains the benefit of being unseen if they succeed on such a check?
My reading is that because "In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you." ... thus if a creature pops out of cover to shoot or move towards a target then they are noticed unless they are hidden in which case they gain the benefit of being an unseen attacker.
However, due to the ambiguity in the rules, I can see other interpretations :)
That's an interesting interpretation, I've not seen that before and it's worth thinking about. However, the whole concept of "popping out" to attack from range is a whole additional debate that people argue both ways on whether you are hiding or just unseen. From what I've seen in other threads, the main way to do anything about an enemy popping out from behind cover is to ready an action with that trigger.
I don't believe that anything explicitly states that just because "you gain certain benefits, as described in the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section" that this necessarily has anything to do with the concept of "popping out".
My own interpretation on that issue is that you can successfully "pop out" when you are merely unseen and still gain advantage. The enemy knows which bush you are behind but doesn't know exactly when or where you will be popping out and when that is done in tandem with an attack it is simply too quick to properly defend against -- therefore, you apply the rule for the unseen attacker. Otherwise, it's actually pretty hard to ever attack as an unseen attacker unless you are invisible or in total darkness or something because full cover will prevent the attack. But again, maybe that's the intent -- maybe it's supposed to be hard to gain the benefit of an unseen attacker, it's tough to say. The "popping out" issue is definitely unclear and open to debate in my opinion. I actually wouldn't mind digging into that a bit in this thread with people but I'm not sure if that would be too far off-topic.
As for "why have the hide action at all"? In my opinion, the benefit is so that YOU cannot be targeted. Also, depending on the terrain, you can move to a new location on the map undetected which could have some tactical advantages. But that's it. It's not actually great, it's very situational. Hiding out of combat seems to have a lot more utility.
Anyway, I do agree with your overall post that these things should have been a lot more clear. The relevant rules are spread out over several chapters, among other problems. It's up to us to figure out what the rules actually say!
In another scenario, a thief must sneak past 5 guards who are all actively searching the area in order to breech the castle undetected. In the case of stealth, a single roll is used and it persists for every future contest until no longer sneaking. (I'm assuming the rules for hiding are the same as the rules for sneaking, which has also been debated.) So, each of these potentially 5 contests will each occur at their own moment, but the sneaking "condition" is ongoing. However, as soon as one guard detects the thief, the alarm is sounded and the portcullis is closed. You are no longer sneaking into the castle -- you have been discovered. The status quo is broken. Again, lots of contests are about maintaining the status quo or changing it.
Being hidden means you are unseen and unheard. In what way rising an alarm makes you now seen and heard? Creature needs to successfully perceive you and the contest exist for that.
A hidden creature could be spotted by some creatures and not others, depending on each contests outcome and those discovering a hidden creature could now hear, see or otherwise perceive it somehow, knowing where it's located, while the others failing to perceive it still wouldn't. One could even tell everyone it sees a hidden person in the dark corner left, and the others who failed to perceive it would still be unable to see and hear it, despite now having very good cues of the location of someone hidden. Why? Because a Stealth vs Perception contest is on individual basis all based on what one can perceive.
I mean, it was meant to be a simple example. Are you telling me that if I try to sneak past 5 guards who are lined up along an entryway and are spaced out such that they each are watching adjacent areas and the first guard discovers me, that I can successfully continue tiptoeing and sneaking past the other 4 guards while the first guard is shouting and beating me over the head with his club? That makes no sense to me.
A hidden creature could be spotted by some creatures and not others, depending on each contests outcome . . .
But why do you believe that this is true? Where is the rule that says this? There IS something similar to this in the rules for surprise, but that is a separate mechanic which occurs before combat has even started. However, the rules for hiding do not say this and the rules for contests that you have quoted recently do not say this either. As indicated by the rules for contests, the result or outcome of a contest is situational -- there are lots of different types of contests that could occur and success or failure (winning or losing) means something different in each case.
Suppose a PC grabs a bracelet off of the table and is carrying it in his hand. One at a time, 4 different monsters each reach out and grab the bracelet, attempting to yank it out of the PC's hand. The PC is currently in possession of the bracelet. We now have 4 consecutive strength vs strength contests, but the DM rules that whatever the PC rolls on his first check shall represent how strong his grip is on the bracelet such that this first check will persist across all 4 contests. The PC wins the first 3 contests. After each contest the PC maintains possession of the bracelet. But after the 4th contest, that monster yanks the bracelet out of the PCs hand and walks away with the bracelet. The PC is now NOT in possession of the bracelet. We would NOT say that he is still in possession of the bracelet vs 3 of the monsters but is not in possession of the bracelet vs the last one. That would be silly. Instead, the PC is simply not in possession of the bracelet. It was stolen from him. If he wishes to regain possession of the bracelet that will require an action and a new ability check.
Some contests have results like this and others do not. It's situational. There is nothing in the rules for contests that indicates that after being discovered by a monster we can still be hidden from other monsters.
However, we can circle back to the rules for hiding. In the rules for hiding, it DOES say that you will use the same stealth check until you are discovered. After that, if you want to be hidden you'll need a new stealth check, because that last one is no longer in use. In general, to roll a new stealth check you'll need to re-take the Hide action.
Your exemple of bracelet is unrelated to the topic. Hiding is status established with the perception of others.. You can hide in combat so Hiding isn't necessarily about concealing your presence but concealing yourself from the perception of others to be unseen and unheard. If some creature among a group notice you and reveal it, yes your presence will have been revealed, but that doesn't make them notice you for this they need their Perception to succeed.
If you're hidden, your Stealth check will be contested against each creature's Perception to determine if any notice you. The exercise is singular per creature, one-on-one like any other contest, where some creature can fail to notice you and others succeed and thus not be unseen and unheard to them.
To me it's clear you're hidden from a creature until discovered by it after it successfully perceives you.
Hiding: When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score.
Ok, I agree it probably wasn't a very good example. The only point that I was trying to make is that there is nothing in the rules for contests which will answer how hiding works. The rules for contests mostly describe the mechanics of how to decide which dice are rolled, how to resolve those rolls, what happens on a tie, and so on. The actual result of a contest will mean something different for each contest depending on the situation so what exactly happens to a hidden creature after a contest is not defined there.
Just based on some phrases you've been using such as "notice you", I am starting to wonder if you are really just using the rules for surprise and applying that to the rules for hiding. Noticing a threat is a phrase that appears in the text in Chapter 8 -- Adventuring in the section that discusses Activity While Traveling. While traveling, technically speaking factors such as marching order and focusing on activities such as foraging or navigating can actually reduce an individual's passive perception to 0 so they will always be surprised by an ambush while other individuals have a chance to "notice hidden threats". The surprise checks do indeed involve singular contests for every pair of friendly vs foe. This is resolved before combat begins. But then, once combat begins, we follow the rules for hiding, not the rules for surprise.
Another quick example. PC Alex and PC Bob travel side by side through the wilderness along a trail while staying aware for danger. Up ahead and off the trail behind some bushes three monsters are hiding and are attempting to coordinate an ambush against the PCs. The monsters are a kobold, a goblin and an orc. Each of these monsters rolls their own stealth roll in an attempt to stay hidden until the ambush. PC Alex and PC Bob both use their passive perception score in 3 separate contests in passive "attempts" to notice a hidden threat for a total of 6 contests which is in accordance with the rules for surprise. If PC Alex is able to notice ANY threat then he is not surprised. Same with PC Bob.
In this case, let's assume that PC Alex only noticed the orc. PC Bob did not notice any threats. PC Bob is surprised and PC Alex is not. THEN combat begins. Time moves forward and we now take turns in initiative order. While taking these turns we use the rules for hiding, not the rules for surprise. Alex had discovered the orc. According to the rules for hiding, the orc continues to use the same stealth roll until he is discovered. Because Alex discovered the orc, the orc no longer has a stealth roll and so is no longer hidden. If the orc decides to attack PC Bob, PC Bob IS surprised, but the orc does not gain any benefits from being hidden while attacking Bob since the orc is no longer hidden.
The same would be true if the orc decided to "come out of hiding and approach" PC Bob in order to make a melee attack. PC Bob IS surprised, but the orc would not be hidden. "Until you are discovered or you stop hiding." Those are the rules for hiding.
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This is also a great point and I think the DM should try to do this when possible just to avoid retcon / metagaming from their players.
Out-Of-Combat Example:
DM: Ok, you've reached the entrance to dragon's lair -- it's a large open room with some of the larger items of the hoard piled near the walls, and the treasure that you're looking for is on the other side of the room. The dragon is a few hundred feet away and is busy rearranging its treasure. What do you do?
Player: Ok, the rest of the group is staying here. I am going to sneak past the dragon and steal the treasure.
(Important Moment)
Option 1: DM: Ok, you begin to sneak into the room, give me a stealth check.
Player rolls a 2: Player: Oh no! I take a couple of steps, realize that I'm making too much noise and quickly duck back through the entrance. Let's try something else guys.
or
Option 2: DM: Ok, you begin to sneak into the room. You stick close to the walls, using various items as cover and concealment. You are almost to the other side, moving past the dragon who is now about 20 feet away. The dragon lifts its head and looks around. Give me a stealth check.
Player rolls a 2: Player: Oh no! (and actions have consequences)
Now, Taking the Hide Action in the Middle of Combat Example:
Player: Ok, I took my shot with my bow. Now, as my Bonus Action I want to duck behind these bushes and try to hide.
DM: Ok, make a stealth check
Player rolls a 2: Player: Hmm, ok that's not going to work. Never mind. I use the rest of my movement to run to this other area next to my allies.
So, maybe it's not strictly RAW, but would the above example run better if the DM just said: "Ok, you are positioned behind those bushes and are trying to hide. Anything else on your turn?" Then, we move on to other creature turns and if it becomes relevant later on the DM can say something like: "Ok, the monster turns towards those bushes and begins to flee. You were trying to hide behind those bushes -- make a stealth check." Again, it's probably not exactly RAW to do it that way but I like it.
Can you walk me through how what you wrote contradicts what I wrote? I'm not seeing the conflict here.
"2) The rules say nothing about hiding be an all or nothing activity. There is nothing in the rules that says you can't be hidden from some creatures and not from others so taking a hide action to be hidden from one creature is not prevented by being in line of view of a team mate.
3) Hiding does NOT mean that you have somehow vanished.The defender simply doesn't know exactly where you are and as a result, your first attack will have advantage. This is what the rules say ... a lot of the confusion happens when you try to logically explain why it happens."
Can you provide actual rules clarification on these points?
Trying to find EXACT RAW for if you come out of Stealth (you are hidden) and move to an enemy to attack them... Does your first strike gain advantage, and therefor, Sneak Attack? OR Does you moving out into the possible sight of the enemy stop your Stealth (Hidden bonus) and therefor you do not get advantage for the attack?
Please and TY.
~Mad
First, keep in mind that advantage when attacking comes from being unseen, not from being hidden.
The text from the books that most directly answers your question appears in Chapter 7, in the Hiding sidebar:
The thing about “unseen” is that, for the purposes of combat, unless a creature is Invisible or the target is for some reason considered to have the Blinded condition they are assumed to be constantly aware of everything happening around them. “I come from behind cover and backstab them” shouldn’t work in most combat because once you’re out of cover anyone with line of sight is assumed to be aware of your position. The problem with the distracted creature clause is that what constitutes “distracted” for its purposes isn’t defined beyond DM fiat, which suggests to me the idea is more a DM tool than a player one.
The rules concerning hidden are confusing and contradictory
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JMtF8ToEr8
The rules don't say anything specifically about hiding being all or nothing.
In terms of rules:
"The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
Surprise is evaluated using exactly the same procedure as being hidden. The stealth score of anyone hiding is compared to the passive perception score of the opposing side. Any creature or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised. This means that some creatures can notice a threat and others not notice them. Since comparing stealth to passive perception is the same procedure used to find hidden creatures ... one could infer that creatures remain hidden to some opponents even though they have been noticed by others. ... otherwise a creature that noticed a hiding creature would just yell "there is a creature over there" and negate surprise for their entire side. However, it doesn't work that way.
In the hiding rules:
"Passive Perception. When you hide, there’s a chance someone will notice you even if they aren’t searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature’s passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature’s Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties."
The rule says "such a creature" NOT every creature associated with the creature that notices you.
"When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check’s total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence."
This rule is more ambiguous. Your stealth check is opposed by the perception check of the specific creature that is looking for you. However, the rule does not specify whether discovery reveals you only to the person looking or to everyone. Considering the wording of the other rules, I interpret that as that location only being revealed to the person looking.
Keep in mind that hiding and stealth is completely irrelevant if you can be seen clearly. You can't hide at all if you can be seen. Some races and feats allow hiding while lightly obscured but in general you need to be heavily obscured in order to hide. "You can’t hide from a creature that can see you clearly"
In terms of what hiding means in game terms - it means you are no longer aware of the movements of the target. This means that they might still be behind the obstacle where you last saw them or they might not. As long as the creature that tries to hide is invisible or sufficiently obscured then their location becomes indeterminate. The reason I mention this is some folks argue that if a character keeps hiding behind the same tree then it doesn't work because the creature they are hiding from still knows where they are. However, that is a house rule. The rules themselves discuss only making a successful stealth check while being sufficiently obscured from the creature you are hiding from. It doesn't matter that they might have a good idea where you are .. what matters is that they can no longer properly anticipate an attack, if there is an attack coming from there and you haven't moved elsewhere. This is my in game explanation for why the hiding character still gets advantage on their attack roll even though the creature knows they are behind the tree.
Mechanically, all that matters is:
1) Check appropriate cover - either heavily or lightly obscured depending on the character abilities. If neither then hiding is not possible.
2) Make a stealth check and compare to passive perception of creatures that can't see you.
3) If successful then the character is hidden from the target and will have advantage on attack rolls from the location of hiding. If the character leaves the hidden location and moves closer to the target hoping to still have advantage then the following rule applies:
"In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen."
Hope that helps ... as always, different DMs may interpret the rules differently :)
Well, we've disagreed on these things before, but I'll present the other viewpoint here again for posterity and let the reader decide.
In my opinion they do. It appears in the Hiding sidebar of the PHB Chapter 7 when it says:
The mechanic there is that you only have to roll the Stealth check one time and that total persists turn after turn and round after round until you are no longer hidden. Once you are discovered or you stop hiding, this stealth check is no longer valid. Hence, you are hidden from all or you are not hidden.
In fact, this is indeed what happens with respect to hidden creatures during battle, so the inference above is incorrect. Determining exactly how this "communication" occurs is beyond the scope -- it is a rules simplification like many aspects of 5e.
The reason why this doesn't apply to the surprise rules is just a timing issue. The moment when surprise is determined is a snapshot in time that occurs only once -- right before combat. In Chapter 9 in a section called The Order of Combat and in a sidebar called Combat Step-By-Step, the flow of combat is explained. Step 1 is to determine surprise. This happens even before we roll for initiative. So, before any communication can occur, the attack is imminent and some creatures are already surprised -- some saw the ambush coming and others didn't, in that exact moment.
Suppose two groups encountered each other and we make the surprise check and some PCs are surprised while others are not. But then, for whatever reason, the monsters didn't actually do anything. We're not actually rolling for initiative because there is no combat happening. Maybe these monsters were being so quiet in their ambush position that they all fell asleep, for example. So now, almost right away I would say that the rest of the PCs are no longer surprised -- time is flowing and information is shared. The monsters cannot wake up 5 minutes later, attack the party, and expect for some of them to be surprised. Surprise only occurs at that one moment when an unexpected attack is happening from a threat that wasn't noticed quickly enough by some characters and they are caught off guard by it.
Eventually, other steps for combat are repeated until the combat ends -- taking turns and beginning the next round. So while combat is ongoing, turns are taken where creatures might move around to new positions and take various actions which can affect future turns and future rounds. So, during this stage, creatures can be hidden in one moment and then be discovered in the next moment and in the moment after that this new information can be used, and so on. It's a flow. Time is elapsing and things are changing during this phase (steps 4 and 5) of combat -- information is shared. But when surprise is determined before all of this, it's a single snapshot in time. Creatures who saw the ambush coming are not surprised and those who didn't see it coming are surprised. And that's it for surprise for the remainder of the combat.
Of course that's what it says. Only the creature who is searching in that situation can make the perception check and only that creature's perception score / skill is relevant to the contest. The same is true in situations where passive perception applies. But once that contest occurs there is a possibility that the hidden creature is discovered, and if that happens then that creature's ongoing stealth check gets thrown away -- thus, the hidden creature becomes no longer hidden. It's a little weird and it's definitely a simplification, but that's what's going on.
It does though. When we read this carefully, we see that this really isn't about the searching. It's about the mechanics of what happens "when you try to hide". The point that is being made here is that the stealth check that you are making persists. You don't have to keep rolling over and over again to stay hidden. No matter who tries to find you and how many times someone tries to find you, "that (original Stealth) check's total is contested". You don't roll for Stealth again just because a second person tries to find you -- you use the same Stealth check from before in this second contest. That is the concept that is being explained by this pair of sentences. The Stealth check remains in effect until you are discovered. It doesn't matter who discovered you, when they discovered you, how many attempts it took to discover you or any of that -- you are now discovered and the stealth check is no longer in effect. In other words, you can no longer use that Stealth check in any future Perception contests. It really does definitively say this, I promise.
Actually, according to the rules, it only matters that the attacker is unseen. They do not actually have to be hidden at all to gain advantage on their attack roll.
The only advantage of being hidden behind the tree instead of just being unseen behind the tree is that they cannot be targeted while hidden behind the tree because their location is unknown (in this case, it's possible that they couldn't be targeted anyway due to full cover in which case being hidden provides basically no benefit). Also, if the situation seems too weird because there was only one tree in a wide open field and we just watched the monster run behind it -- the DM can simply decide that "circumstances are [not] appropriate for hiding". In that case, they will be unseen (which is still really good) but not hidden since their location is known.
If that was true it would be literally impossible for a group to stealth on enemies they're hidden from because they would be discovered by any allies not hidden from..
Logic imply you can be hidden from some creatures and not others. A contest to hide is on individual basis per creature's Perception vs Stealth and not a general condition that ends the moment one creature notice you. In other word, you are hidden from any creature until discovered by it.
Thanks guys. I think I understand this slightly more... but still too vague. :D
~Mad
I don't think I understand what you mean here. Are you talking about being hidden from your allies? We don't typically hide from our own allies.
I agree that this is logical is some situations where allies might be distracted or preoccupied or engaged in battle or other activities during a combat or are spread very far apart from each other and so on.
I think there are at least three reasons why the rules were not written that way and instead the concept was simplified:
First, there was an overall design choice for 5e that rules should be streamlined and simplified for a lot of reasons.
Second, if individual pairings had to be tracked on an ongoing basis it could become very complex just for one game mechanic. You would potentially have to maintain TWO very large spreadsheets with hundreds of entries each. One to track whether PC 1 is hidden from Monster A and another to track whether Monster A is hidden from PC 1 and there would be rows and columns to track the intersections of every PC with every monster. Every time that anyone does anything, the entire spreadsheet would have to be updated. And this would have to be maintained turn after turn and round after round. It is high complexity and potentially bogs down the gameplay. Instead, we just mark a creature as "hidden". Then, when they are discovered we just remove this marker. Simple. Quick. It keeps things moving.
There is also a third reason which was hinted at earlier which has to do with the actual mechanics. The ONLY benefit to being hidden is that your location is unknown so that you cannot be directly targeted. When you attack someone else the benefits have to do with being Unseen, NOT hidden.
An example: I am standing right next to my ally in a room and we are looking around. My ally points and says "Hey, there's a monster under the bed!" Unless I move a couple of feet, for whatever reason I cannot quite see this monster under the bed from where I am standing. For simplicity, assume that this bed occupies a single 5x5 square. So, technically, I still cannot see or hear that monster. Is it still hidden from me though? Really? I know exactly where it is. Assume that we are not dealing with total cover. If the monster is not considered to be hidden, I can attack the monster. If it IS considered to be hidden, I can simply attack the square under the bed -- I am 100% certain that the monster is located in that square -- it's location is known. In this case, the result is exactly the same. Claiming that the monster remained hidden from me caused exactly zero benefit to that monster -- it did not matter at all. In this situation where the monster's location is known, it is more accurate to just say that the monster is not hidden.
Anyway, these are some of the reasons why the rules are written the way that they are. I understand that many players don't really want to see it for what it is because it's not "logical" and it is overly "simplified" and all of that -- and I agree with all of that. But the rules are what they are.
You obviously need to keep track of who you're hidden from, like any other Contest it's one creature opposing another and the check determine success or failure resulting from it.
I think our differing opinions .. both citing the exact same rules :) .. but interpreting them differently makes it pretty clear that the rules simply aren't clear enough. I don't think either of us is making our points just to argue .. we read the same text and reach different conclusions or interpretations. I agree with you that one way to read the stealth check rule is that the creature makes one stealth roll. When they are noticed by one creature then they aren't hidden but the rules don't really cover what that means and whether you can be hidden from some creatures but not others, or whether you are just hidden or you aren't. (the surprise rules aren't the same thing as hiding but they clearly make a case for noticing things being on an individual rather than a group basis).
The rules also don't explicitly state that every creature now knows where the hidden creature was (when one creature notices it), even if the others can't see it. That is the interpretation you prefer, that the creature's location becomes known to everyone as soon as is noticed by one other creature, and I can see that reading of it, I just don't agree with it :). The rule also doesn't explicitly state that hiding is on an individual basis - the main implication for this is that all of the hiding rules only discuss the creature making the check, not how much or what sort of information can be effectively shared with their team mates during a fight, and thus whether every other creature also learns the location when one creature does.
So .. it comes down to how the individual DM decides to run it since I think both interpretations agree with the limited information presented in the text.
----
One more comment ... :) ... you stated "Actually, according to the rules, it only matters that the attacker is unseen. They do not actually have to be hidden at all to gain advantage on their attack roll."
It is correct that they need to be unseen when they make the attack. Thus an invisible creature receives the benefit. However, standing behind a tree, and popping out to shoot does not receive advantage on the attack unless the creature has succeeded in hiding. (since they can be seen when they pop out).
Two rules:
"Hide
When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules for hiding. If you succeed, you gain certain benefits, as described in the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section later in this chapter."
"You can’t hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet.
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you."
Being unseen is a requirement for hiding (either heavily obscured in most cases or lightly obscured for certain races or feats). The Hide action provides the benefits of an Unseen Attackers and Targets.
If someone can stand behind a tree, poke their head out and shoot at advantage because they were unseen - then why have the hide action at all? Why would the hide action say a character gains the benefit of being unseen if they succeed on such a check?
My reading is that because "In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you." ... thus if a creature pops out of cover to shoot or move towards a target then they are noticed unless they are hidden in which case they gain the benefit of being an unseen attacker.
However, due to the ambiguity in the rules, I can see other interpretations :)
Well, I definitely disagree with the conclusion that you are drawing from the rules for a contest. The key thing to remember about a contest is that it is an event that is happening at a moment in time. In many cases a contest determines if the status quo remains in effect or if something has changed. This is exactly the case in stealth. One complication is that in the case of hiding, the stealth check that is used is ongoing for all future contests until something changes.
Consider the case when a door is closed and one creature tries to hold it closed and another creature on the other side attempts to push or pull the door open. We might call for an opposed strength contest. Depending on who wins, the door might remain closed. If this happens, maybe another creature attempts to open the door and we have another contest. And again, and again. One of these times, the door might be successfully opened. At that point, the door is open. It is not closed vs some creatures and open vs some other creatures. The door is no longer closed and that's it. You could attempt to close the door again later (just like you can attempt to hide again later), but for right now, the door is open.
In another scenario, a thief must sneak past 5 guards who are all actively searching the area in order to breech the castle undetected. In the case of stealth, a single roll is used and it persists for every future contest until no longer sneaking. (I'm assuming the rules for hiding are the same as the rules for sneaking, which has also been debated.) So, each of these potentially 5 contests will each occur at their own moment, but the sneaking "condition" is ongoing. However, as soon as one guard detects the thief, the alarm is sounded and the portcullis is closed. You are no longer sneaking into the castle -- you have been discovered. The status quo is broken. Again, lots of contests are about maintaining the status quo or changing it.
Another way to think of it is that if you are already hidden then that is the status quo and you must be discovered for that to change. If instead you are already discovered and then you attempt to hide, the status quo is that you are discovered and you must successfully hide for that to change. This is especially important in the case of a tie between the stealth roll and the perception roll -- in a tie, the status quo is maintained.
Yeah, I agree with you on this. It's funny, this is one of those times where the text actually seems pretty clear to me, but the fact that so many experienced players are not interpreting it the same way must mean that it's not clear enough -- hopefully future versions will improve the explanations because this is a really core mechanic to gameplay, it should be spelled out quite a bit better.
But, for example, I can see that we can grammatically rearrange the pair of sentences while maintaining the same meaning like this:
"When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence."
becomes:
"When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. That check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence until you are discovered or you stop hiding."
Once I see it like this, it's hard to un-see it.
Honestly, I'm not even sure that I prefer it to be this way. It's just what I think the rule is. There are pros and cons to both approaches. One is simpler and faster, the other is more realistic and tactical. If the rules provided these two options as a choice, it might even be something that you run one way for one campaign and another way for another campaign.
That's an interesting interpretation, I've not seen that before and it's worth thinking about. However, the whole concept of "popping out" to attack from range is a whole additional debate that people argue both ways on whether you are hiding or just unseen. From what I've seen in other threads, the main way to do anything about an enemy popping out from behind cover is to ready an action with that trigger.
I don't believe that anything explicitly states that just because "you gain certain benefits, as described in the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section" that this necessarily has anything to do with the concept of "popping out".
My own interpretation on that issue is that you can successfully "pop out" when you are merely unseen and still gain advantage. The enemy knows which bush you are behind but doesn't know exactly when or where you will be popping out and when that is done in tandem with an attack it is simply too quick to properly defend against -- therefore, you apply the rule for the unseen attacker. Otherwise, it's actually pretty hard to ever attack as an unseen attacker unless you are invisible or in total darkness or something because full cover will prevent the attack. But again, maybe that's the intent -- maybe it's supposed to be hard to gain the benefit of an unseen attacker, it's tough to say. The "popping out" issue is definitely unclear and open to debate in my opinion. I actually wouldn't mind digging into that a bit in this thread with people but I'm not sure if that would be too far off-topic.
As for "why have the hide action at all"? In my opinion, the benefit is so that YOU cannot be targeted. Also, depending on the terrain, you can move to a new location on the map undetected which could have some tactical advantages. But that's it. It's not actually great, it's very situational. Hiding out of combat seems to have a lot more utility.
Anyway, I do agree with your overall post that these things should have been a lot more clear. The relevant rules are spread out over several chapters, among other problems. It's up to us to figure out what the rules actually say!
my rule would be roll an monster perception check or a pc stealth check any thoughts or extended ideas on this?
in a hole in the ground you notice a halfling
Being hidden means you are unseen and unheard. In what way rising an alarm makes you now seen and heard? Creature needs to successfully perceive you and the contest exist for that.
A hidden creature could be spotted by some creatures and not others, depending on each contests outcome and those discovering a hidden creature could now hear, see or otherwise perceive it somehow, knowing where it's located, while the others failing to perceive it still wouldn't. One could even tell everyone it sees a hidden person in the dark corner left, and the others who failed to perceive it would still be unable to see and hear it, despite now having very good cues of the location of someone hidden. Why? Because a Stealth vs Perception contest is on individual basis all based on what one can perceive.
I mean, it was meant to be a simple example. Are you telling me that if I try to sneak past 5 guards who are lined up along an entryway and are spaced out such that they each are watching adjacent areas and the first guard discovers me, that I can successfully continue tiptoeing and sneaking past the other 4 guards while the first guard is shouting and beating me over the head with his club? That makes no sense to me.
But why do you believe that this is true? Where is the rule that says this? There IS something similar to this in the rules for surprise, but that is a separate mechanic which occurs before combat has even started. However, the rules for hiding do not say this and the rules for contests that you have quoted recently do not say this either. As indicated by the rules for contests, the result or outcome of a contest is situational -- there are lots of different types of contests that could occur and success or failure (winning or losing) means something different in each case.
Suppose a PC grabs a bracelet off of the table and is carrying it in his hand. One at a time, 4 different monsters each reach out and grab the bracelet, attempting to yank it out of the PC's hand. The PC is currently in possession of the bracelet. We now have 4 consecutive strength vs strength contests, but the DM rules that whatever the PC rolls on his first check shall represent how strong his grip is on the bracelet such that this first check will persist across all 4 contests. The PC wins the first 3 contests. After each contest the PC maintains possession of the bracelet. But after the 4th contest, that monster yanks the bracelet out of the PCs hand and walks away with the bracelet. The PC is now NOT in possession of the bracelet. We would NOT say that he is still in possession of the bracelet vs 3 of the monsters but is not in possession of the bracelet vs the last one. That would be silly. Instead, the PC is simply not in possession of the bracelet. It was stolen from him. If he wishes to regain possession of the bracelet that will require an action and a new ability check.
Some contests have results like this and others do not. It's situational. There is nothing in the rules for contests that indicates that after being discovered by a monster we can still be hidden from other monsters.
However, we can circle back to the rules for hiding. In the rules for hiding, it DOES say that you will use the same stealth check until you are discovered. After that, if you want to be hidden you'll need a new stealth check, because that last one is no longer in use. In general, to roll a new stealth check you'll need to re-take the Hide action.
If you're hidden, your Stealth check will be contested against each creature's Perception to determine if any notice you. The exercise is singular per creature, one-on-one like any other contest, where some creature can fail to notice you and others succeed and thus not be unseen and unheard to them.
To me it's clear you're hidden from a creature until discovered by it after it successfully perceives you.
Ok, I agree it probably wasn't a very good example. The only point that I was trying to make is that there is nothing in the rules for contests which will answer how hiding works. The rules for contests mostly describe the mechanics of how to decide which dice are rolled, how to resolve those rolls, what happens on a tie, and so on. The actual result of a contest will mean something different for each contest depending on the situation so what exactly happens to a hidden creature after a contest is not defined there.
Just based on some phrases you've been using such as "notice you", I am starting to wonder if you are really just using the rules for surprise and applying that to the rules for hiding. Noticing a threat is a phrase that appears in the text in Chapter 8 -- Adventuring in the section that discusses Activity While Traveling. While traveling, technically speaking factors such as marching order and focusing on activities such as foraging or navigating can actually reduce an individual's passive perception to 0 so they will always be surprised by an ambush while other individuals have a chance to "notice hidden threats". The surprise checks do indeed involve singular contests for every pair of friendly vs foe. This is resolved before combat begins. But then, once combat begins, we follow the rules for hiding, not the rules for surprise.
Another quick example. PC Alex and PC Bob travel side by side through the wilderness along a trail while staying aware for danger. Up ahead and off the trail behind some bushes three monsters are hiding and are attempting to coordinate an ambush against the PCs. The monsters are a kobold, a goblin and an orc. Each of these monsters rolls their own stealth roll in an attempt to stay hidden until the ambush. PC Alex and PC Bob both use their passive perception score in 3 separate contests in passive "attempts" to notice a hidden threat for a total of 6 contests which is in accordance with the rules for surprise. If PC Alex is able to notice ANY threat then he is not surprised. Same with PC Bob.
In this case, let's assume that PC Alex only noticed the orc. PC Bob did not notice any threats. PC Bob is surprised and PC Alex is not. THEN combat begins. Time moves forward and we now take turns in initiative order. While taking these turns we use the rules for hiding, not the rules for surprise. Alex had discovered the orc. According to the rules for hiding, the orc continues to use the same stealth roll until he is discovered. Because Alex discovered the orc, the orc no longer has a stealth roll and so is no longer hidden. If the orc decides to attack PC Bob, PC Bob IS surprised, but the orc does not gain any benefits from being hidden while attacking Bob since the orc is no longer hidden.
The same would be true if the orc decided to "come out of hiding and approach" PC Bob in order to make a melee attack. PC Bob IS surprised, but the orc would not be hidden. "Until you are discovered or you stop hiding." Those are the rules for hiding.