''Notice you'' sppears in Hiding rules i quoted. I never referred to Surprise rules. As i told you before in post #48;
I think the Surprise rules get you confused on how hiding works, they're independant and being hidden is not a condition but a status in respect to another creature resulting from a contest either noticing you or failing to discover you, and thus remaining hidden from it, where with Surprise the moment you notice a threat you aren't Surprised.
If once you're seen and heard by a creature you're no longer unseen and unheard thus not hidden from anyone, then group stealth would be impossible and halfling couldn't hide when obscured by a larger creature because said creature would see it making it not unseen anymore.
So it imply you can be hidden from some creature while not from others.
I don't think I understand what you mean here. Are you talking about being hidden from your allies? We don't typically hide from our own allies.
I think Plaguescarred makes an interesting point.The rules actually don't treat allies any differently from opponents in the context of hiding. They only discuss how one creature can be considered hidden from another so the point made about a halfling hiding behind a creature that is one size larger still stands since the rules don't discuss whether that creature has to be an ally or any enemy.
The halfling rules state:
"Naturally Stealthy. You can attempt to hide even when you are obscured only by a creature that is at least one size larger than you."
This means that a halfling fighting a group of medium or larger bandits could hide behind one of the bandits in order to be hidden from the other bandits. Otherwise, the racial ability makes no sense since it does not specify hiding behind friendly creatures it just specifies ANY creature at least one size larger.
If the rules intended that a creature who is noticed by ANY creature is then noticed by all creatures then it would be impossible to hide at all behind any creature based on the all or nothing interpretation of hiding.(you can't assume allies are different from opponents since the rules don't include that).
Hiding behind ANY creature that is one size larger only makes sense in the context of being able to hide from some creatures and not others because the halfling attempting to hide can't hide from the creature they are hiding behind but can hide from creatures on the other side of it.
I get what you guys are saying there but I'm not buying it. Hiding is not meant to apply to allies, that's just common sense. If we need to find some technicality from the text that confirms this then I point us back to the phrase "until you are discovered". The word "discovered" has a certain connotation to it in this context that would not apply to allies. Allies do not "discover" you.
But honestly, this really isn't something that should have to be proven. It is inherent in the plain English meaning of the word "hidden". When someone hides, it implies that they don't want the people that they are hiding from to find them. Allies could care less if you find them or not. You don't hide from your allies. We're really going into the weeds here if this is going to be the main argument in favor of being able to remain hidden from some enemies after being discovered by THEIR allies.
I get what you guys are saying there but I'm not buying it. Hiding is not meant to apply to allies, that's just common sense. If we need to find some technicality from the text that confirms this then I point us back to the phrase "until you are discovered". The word "discovered" has a certain connotation to it in this context that would not apply to allies. Allies do not "discover" you.
But honestly, this really isn't something that should have to be proven. It is inherent in the plain English meaning of the word "hidden". When someone hides, it implies that they don't want the people that they are hiding from to find them. Allies could care less if you find them or not. You don't hide from your allies. We're really going into the weeds here if this is going to be the main argument in favor of being able to remain hidden from some enemies after being discovered by THEIR allies.
In my example, the halfling was using a bandit to hide from other bandits. RAW that is ok since the halfling ability says they can hide behind any creature one size larger and that does not specify that the creature they are hiding behind is an ally. I think you would suggest that the rules imply this simply doesn't work because the halfling can't hide from some creatures but not others and that hiding only applies to enemies and not allies ... however, that isn't what the halfling ability says and the rules also do not state that hiding only applies to enemies and not allies.
Sad that a party of friends can't play hide and seek :)
I get what you guys are saying there but I'm not buying it. Hiding is not meant to apply to allies, that's just common sense. If we need to find some technicality from the text that confirms this then I point us back to the phrase "until you are discovered". The word "discovered" has a certain connotation to it in this context that would not apply to allies. Allies do not "discover" you.
But honestly, this really isn't something that should have to be proven. It is inherent in the plain English meaning of the word "hidden". When someone hides, it implies that they don't want the people that they are hiding from to find them. Allies could care less if you find them or not. You don't hide from your allies. We're really going into the weeds here if this is going to be the main argument in favor of being able to remain hidden from some enemies after being discovered by THEIR allies.
In my example, the halfling was using a bandit to hide from other bandits. RAW that is ok since the halfling ability says they can hide behind any creature one size larger and that does not specify that the creature they are hiding behind is an ally. I think you would suggest that the rules imply this simply doesn't work because the halfling can't hide from some creatures but not others and that hiding only applies to enemies and not allies ... however, that isn't what the halfling ability says and the rules also do not state that hiding only applies to enemies and not allies.
Sad that a party of friends can't play hide and seek :)
Yes, that's how I would rule that situation. "The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding". The Halfling ability provides an additional circumstance that might be appropriate which would never be appropriate for any other race, but just like every other attempt to hide, the DM first adjudicates if it is even possible in the specific situation. Instead of allowing the player to make the attempt and waste their turn, I would simply fall back on "In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around" and "You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly" and allow them to choose a different action.
Keep in mind that the Halfling ability is not restricted to only hiding behind allies. He can also attempt to hide behind a neutral creature such as a horse. But trying to hide behind an enemy that can see you clearly that might be about to punch you in the face makes no sense. The ability is called "naturally stealthy" -- there is nothing stealthy about a situation like that.
Again, some things really shouldn't have to be so precisely spelled out in the text. At some point we need to rely on the common usage of the word "hide" and what is trying to be accomplished by someone who hides. Perhaps we could rule that the enemy will temporarily provide some cover vs another enemy behind it (the rules for cover mention half-cover from a creature by default) which provides some benefits, but that's not the same thing as being hidden. I would not allow it.
We do not typically hide from our allies because the idea behind hiding is that we do not want to be found and this does not apply to allies. HOWEVER, if for some reason we were playing a game of hide and seek with our allies, THEN we could attempt to hide from them. Based on the common usage of the word "hide" it now makes sense. NOW we do not want our allies to find us. For all intents and purposes during that game, those allies become enemies during the game of hide and seek.
Hiding is not meant to apply to allies, that's just common sense.
How is that common sense? If you're neither visible or audible then how do your allies know where you are unless you told them what your plan was (e.g- "I'm going to go hide behind that building over there")?
It's arguably less common sense for the hiding rules to only apply to enemies, because that would mean there is something weird going on that the rules don't cover as far as I can see? The rules don't make reference to enemies, only creatures, so your allies are equally affected unless you take steps to prevent that. The purpose of the Hide action is to break awareness of your location, i.e- to become both unseen and unheard, and to allow you to move so creatures now have to guess at your location.
It's no different to being invisible; that condition makes you unseen by enemies, but also allies, so you can't be targeted by any spell that requires them to see you unless they happen to have see invisibility or truesight, which is an important drawback you don't hear about much. If a character were to go invisible and then get stuck, how are there allies to know unless that character calls for help or becomes visible again?
The difference with hiding is that it's not all-or-nothing; you can be hidden from some creatures and not others. For example, if you hide on the north side of a wall, creatures also to the north of the wall can still see you, but you can become hidden from creatures to the south. If creatures to the south saw you cross the wall, they know where you were but if you hide and then move they can either assume you are still where you hopped over, or have to guess which direction you might have gone etc.
I can't help but chime in again that it's a little bit amusing that Hide-and-Seek was used as an example. In games of Hide-and-Seek that I've played you hide somewhere until you are discovered. When you are discovered, that's it -- the game is over for you. You are NOT still hidden from other players!
You hide from any creature, not just enemies since the rules don't make such distinction. When a game element intend to affect enemies only, it specifically say so.
I can't help but chime in again that it's a little bit amusing that Hide-and-Seek was used as an example. In games of Hide-and-Seek that I've played you hide somewhere until you are discovered. When you are discovered, that's it -- the game is over for you. You are NOT still hidden from other players!
Interesting :) .. in the games of Hide and Seek that I have played ... the only person who knows where you are hiding is the one who found you and perhaps anyone else who happens to have a clear view of where you were hiding. Everyone else doesn't actually know where you are even after being found. :)
Guys, you don't hide from your allies. Just like you don't Disengage from your allies, you don't Dodge your allies, you don't Grapple your allies and you don't Shove your allies. Your allies are on your side. They are willing participants in your plan. Your allies do NOT roll a perception check to try to "discover" you when you hide. They just don't.
This might blow some people's minds, but it is possible that you cannot see your ally, you cannot hear your ally and you do not know the location of your ally -- and yet, that ally is NOT hidden from you!
Hiding is not meant to apply to allies, that's just common sense.
How is that common sense? If you're neither visible or audible then how do your allies know where you are unless you told them what your plan was (e.g- "I'm going to go hide behind that building over there")?
Mechanically, that is not how hiding works. You can be temporarily silent and out of sight, but you still have to actually take the Hide action to become hidden. It doesn't just passively happen. It requires an action -- that's because you are doing something with a specific intent or motivation. You are being stealthy, trying not to be discovered. But that part doesn't apply to allies. Allies are not trying to discover you.
According to the rules, "When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check". This check is a required step. You cannot hide without a die roll. That die roll is what MAKES you hidden. That die roll has a specific purpose, which is in line with the narrative of what hiding actually means. That die roll participates in one or more contests whereby "any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence" can attempt to discover you. Your ally is NOT such a creature. Your ally is not going to participate in this contest. And yet, this entire mechanical picture is what constitutes hiding according to the rules.
The difference with hiding is that it's not all-or-nothing; you can be hidden from some creatures and not others.
I agree insofar as you can be hidden from your enemies but not from your allies. However, you cannot be hidden from some enemies but not others -- there is no rule that says that you can. You have not quoted one, nor has anyone else in this thread.
You hide from any creature, not just enemies since the rules don't make such distinction.
Incorrect. According to the rules, you hide from "any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence." Not just "any creature". Allies do not do this. Enemies do this. Likewise, the passive portion of the rule applies to creatures that are applying their passive perception in order to "notice you". Allies are not trying to "notice you" in this context and connotation. Their passive perception is never applied to the contest that is required to succeed in order to "notice you".
You don't Disengage from allies because the movement rules distinguish between friends and foes, the hiding rules do not.
You don't Grapple your allies and you don't Shove your allies.
You can Grapple and Shove your allies if you want to, in fact it's a perfectly legitimate means of getting them out of harms way on your turn rather than waiting for theirs, since grappling a creature enables you to move it (at half speed) and shoving can push them away in a direction of your choice.
Your allies are on your side. They are willing participants in your plan. Your allies do NOT roll a perception check to try to "discover" you when you hide. They just don't.
Actual rules citation, please.
This might blow some people's minds, but it is possible that you cannot see your ally, you cannot hear your ally and you do not know the location of your ally -- and yet, that ally is NOT hidden from you!
So allies being psychically linked without the aid of magic is now "common sense" is it?
That's not how the rules work; what you're describing is meta-gaming, and a DM is well within their rights to shut that down. If you want your allies to know where you are, or will be, hiding then you need to communicate that to their characters somehow.
You are free to discuss with your DM wether that needs to happen explicitly, or whether you can just assume any plan made by the group is communicated with all members, but the moment a character is hiding somewhere the group wasn't aware of, they are also hidden from the group.
Mechanically, that is not how hiding works. You can be temporarily silent and out of sight, but you still have to actually take the Hide action to become hidden.
Which is what this thread is about.
You are being stealthy, trying not to be discovered. But that part doesn't apply to allies. Allies are not trying to discover you.
They are if they don't know where you are, which they won't if you hide. The rules for being unseen don't distinguish between friend or foe, nor do the rules for hiding; once hidden a creature must search either actively or passively for "signs of your presence", i.e- at this point creatures do not know where you are if they cannot see or otherwise detect you.
That is common sense, because that is what hiding is.
I agree insofar as you can be hidden from your enemies but not from your allies.
Then you don't agree at all because you're ignoring entirely what I said.
However, you cannot be hidden from some enemies but not others -- there is no rule that says that you can. You have not quoted one, nor has anyone else in this thread.
It is fully possible to be hidden from some creatures and not others, because some are differently positioned, have darkvision etc.
Your position might become known to others if one that can see/detect you communicates where you are, but that's something of a grey area or up to your DM whether to roll for successfully communicating etc. Strictly speaking in such a case only the creature(s) that can see you can see you, to the others you're still hidden, they're just hurling attacks at where they think you are, which may or may not be correct.
According to the rules, you hide from "any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence." Not just "any creature". Allies do not do this. Enemies do this.
The rules for hiding make no such distinction; you are inventing rules here. If an ally doesn't know where you are, then they must search like anyone else, and the rules say nothing about allies automatically always knowing where you are without the aid of magic.
When you hide, you hide from everyone that cannot still see you. The only way to exclude your allies from that is to tell them where you're going to be, though strictly speaking you're still hidden from them, they just know where to lob a healing potion, or draw guards away from or whatever.
If the rules meant for there to be a special distinction between allies and enemies it would say so.
Likewise, the passive portion of the rule applies to creatures that are applying their passive perception in order to "notice you". Allies are not trying to "notice you" in this context
Nobody is trying to notice you in this context; the whole point of passive checks is that they occur when somebody isn't trying to do something, but notices anyway. Like if you walk into your house expecting it to be as you left it, then notice there's a Rogue pretending to be one of your lamps. Unless that's something that happens to you a lot you don't normally walk into your house actively checking for Rogue lamps. 😂
When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
You don't Grapple your allies and you don't Shove your allies.
You can Grapple and Shove your allies if you want to.
Nope. You can "grapple" or "shove" an ally, but you do not Grapple and Shove your allies. This is because the rules for Grapple and Shove require "a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use)." Your ally is simply not going to participate in this contest -- he is not resisting. He is on your side.
Your allies are on your side. They are willing participants in your plan. Your allies do NOT roll a perception check to try to "discover" you when you hide. They just don't.
Actual rules citation, please.
Wow, that's a pretty silly request. Are you disputing that allies are on your side? Ok . . .
From dictionary.com:
a person, group, or nation that is associated with another or others for some common cause or purpose: Canada and the United States were allies in World War II.
This is not the sort of thing that would be spelled out in the rules. At some point the common usage and meaning of words is assumed.
This might blow some people's minds, but it is possible that you cannot see your ally, you cannot hear your ally and you do not know the location of your ally -- and yet, that ally is NOT hidden from you!
So allies being psychically linked without the aid of magic is now "common sense" is it?
That's not how the rules work; what you're describing is meta-gaming, and a DM is well within their rights to shut that down. If you want your allies to know where you are, or will be, hiding then you need to communicate that to their characters somehow.
No, you've missed the point that was being made there. The situation that I described has nothing to do with allies being psychically linked -- they are not. They simply are not hiding from their allies. One ally might not know where the other one is and they might not be able to see him or hear him -- but that other ally does not gain the mechanical benefits of being hidden against his ally. They are not rolling a contested stealth vs perception against each other. They simply cannot see or hear each other. They are not making a conscious effort to avoid being discovered by each other. This is why group stealth works. You and your ally can hop in a foxhole together and hide from your enemies together. You are not discovering each other. You are both attempting to avoid being discovered by the enemy. When you each roll your stealth checks, you are not also rolling perception checks to see if you can discover each other, nor are you attempting to avoid being discovered by each other. You are not hiding from each other. You are hiding from the enemy.
You are being stealthy, trying not to be discovered. But that part doesn't apply to allies. Allies are not trying to discover you.
They are if they don't know where you are, which they won't if you hide. The rules for being unseen don't distinguish between friend or foe, nor do the rules for hiding; once hidden a creature must search either actively or passively for "signs of your presence", i.e- at this point creatures do not know where you are if they cannot see or otherwise detect you.
That is common sense, because that is what hiding is.
I strongly disagree with all of that. If you are taking the hide action in combat in an effort to prevent me from discovering you and I am actively searching for you in order to discover you -- something has gone wrong. We are no longer allies. Someone is a traitor. Someone has double crossed someone else and has changed their loyalty and allegiance. Because in combat, these are basically hostile actions from both sides. One is only going through the trouble to take an action to hide from the other because the other is a threat. If I am trying to discover you then I am indeed a threat. Allies do not behave this way. We do not take hostile combat actions against each other. We do not make contested checks against each other.
According to the rules, you hide from "any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence." Not just "any creature". Allies do not do this. Enemies do this.
The rules for hiding make no such distinction; you are inventing rules here. If an ally doesn't know where you are, then they must search like anyone else, and the rules say nothing about allies automatically always knowing where you are without the aid of magic.
What in the world? I constantly cut and paste exact text and put it in quotation marks or in blockquotes and I am somehow inventing something? Of course an ally doesn't automatically know where you are. The point is that they are not going to search with the intent of discovering you. They are not trying to blow your cover. They are on your side. Likewise, you are not trying to hide from your ally. That is not the purpose of your stealth roll.
Likewise, the passive portion of the rule applies to creatures that are applying their passive perception in order to "notice you". Allies are not trying to "notice you" in this context
Nobody is trying to notice you in this context; the whole point of passive checks is that they occur when somebody isn't trying to do something, but notices anyway.
You've missed the point again. According to the rules, when you try to hide you are attempting to avoid two outcomes. You are trying to not be discovered by someone who is actively looking for you and you are trying to prevent being passively noticed by someone in the area. Both of these outcomes are undesirable, which is why there is an action that can be taken to attempt to avoid them. When it comes to your allies, you really don't care. You are not trying to hide from them and they are not trying to discover you or notice you. If either ally behaved otherwise during combat that would basically be a hostile act against your own ally -- in which case they would no longer be your ally, by definition.
When you hide, you hide from everyone that cannot still see you. The only way to exclude your allies from that is to tell them where you're going to be, though strictly speaking you're still hidden from them, they just know where to lob a healing potion, or draw guards away from or whatever.
If the rules meant for there to be a special distinction between allies and enemies it would say so.
This is a misunderstanding of the hiding rules and mechanics. The distinction is in the mechanics that are described in the rule. Here is what seems to be missed ever since this hiding from allies nonsense of a side conversation began:
Hiding is a contest of skill checks. Really it's a series of contests as you continue to try to hide while more and more people try to discover you. Allies do not oppose each other in contests during battle. That is hostile. Hiding is not just moving to an unseen position. Hiding is also not just moving to an unseen position and trying to remain unheard. Hiding during combat is an ACTION that you take which is deliberately attempting to avoid being discovered by attempting to win a contest of stealth vs one or more creatures' perception. The contest is what allows the hiding. No contest, no hiding.
When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence . . . When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature's Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties.
That is the rule.
To try to veer back towards the original topic, when the Hide action is taken during combat, we follow the above rule. This rule tells us two things:
1. We don't hide from our allies since the rule for hiding requires a contest, also known as an opposed check: "Sometimes one character's or monster's efforts are directly opposed to another's". Within the context of any contest, the participants are opposed, not allied.
2. The stealth check that allows a creature to become and remain hidden remains in effect and is used in all current and future contests "until you are discovered or you stop hiding". Therefore, when you are discovered you are no longer hidden.
I'm not going to bother pulling apart your post into separate quotes again as it's just a waste of time and space. It seems to me that your entire argument hinges on the idea that allies cannot make contested checks, and that therefore a contested check can't happen, but this simply isn't the case.
The rules for contests do not specify that allies are ineligible for contested checks, in fact it very clearly doesn't say anything to that effect. If I want, I can lie to, pickpocket or wrestle my allies, as nothing mechanically prevents me from doing so (though the DM/group might get annoyed if I keep doing it).
All the rules say is that contests usually occur when two actions are in opposition, one side doesn't want the other to succeed, or only one can "win" a given situation. That's the general rule. But as always, specific beats general, and actions such as a Grapple, Shove or Hidingspecifically require contested checks, which means the contest takes place whether you want it to or not.
With specific reference to the Hiding rules, any creature that needs "signs of your presence" must either passively detect you, or actively search for you, in which case a contested check will occur. There is no reference to allies or enemies, only creatures; therefore all creatures need to do one of these things to find you. The only exception is for any creature(s) that can see you, as you were never going to be hidden from them to begin with.
While a DM could rule that a contest isn't necessary via DM fiat, the proper way to do that would be to choose one side to automatically fail the contest (because they're not trying to win), or they do it in RAW by applying disadvantage. This works fine for grappling, shoving etc. because these are one-versus-one contests, but in the case of hiding you only make one Stealth check for all creatures, so to choose not to be hidden from allies you would need to choose to fail your Stealth check in which case you wouldn't be hidden to begin with, so by that method you absolutely can remain known to your allies, by also being known to your enemies, because you aren't hiding (or choose to try and hide poorly). Alternatively the DM could give advantage to the allies to spot their hidden friend, but you still need to search actively or passively in that case.
But that's a bit off-topic, the point is that Stealth differs from Disengaging because the movement and opportunity attack rules explicitly distinguish between allies and enemies (hostile creatures) in a way that the stealth/hiding rules do not. Only hostile creatures make opportunity attacks, which is why you do not need to Disengage from allies.
Even if we were to accept your argument that allies don't need to roll contests against allies (despite it being unsupported in the rules), the note on passive perception in the Hiding rules would still apply, because this covers creatures "even if they aren't searching". Because the lack of a contest check doesn't mean a creature is aware of you, it just means the contested check didn't occur. Since their passive perception may not be enough to find you, they would then need to actively search anyway.
Now whether or not allies actually need to roll Perception to find you depends upon whether they need to find you in the first place; it would be impractical for the DM to roll perception checks or consult passive perception for every creature in the multiverse just because one creature took the Hide action. Instead we only roll for those that might detect them and do something about it, or who are trying to detect them, e.g- enemies who know someone is in the area, but not where they are exactly, allies who are trying to keep track of their friend while watching from afar etc. The point is that the contest usually only occurs when it needs to occur, you don't have to roll for everyone immediately.
Just because allies don't normally need to check (because they don't normally need to know where a hidden ally is), doesn't mean they will never need to.
You don't Disengage from allies creatures, you just take the action and your movement doesn't provoke opportunity attacks for the rest of the turn. You already don't provoke from allies non-hostile creature land now you don't provoke from hostile creatures as well.
Any game element that target a creature, such as Grapple or Shove can be an ally or enemy.
One more thing, there's no rule for ally or enemy creatures to willingly fail an ability check, wether active or passive.
Was that in response to me? I've tried to clarify my wording as I was talking mainly about how a DM could choose to decide the contest isn't necessary as a DM call, that wasn't intended as a rules statement.
In strict RAW the DM can always apply advantage or disadvantage however they like, so they can stack a contest in favour of one side or the other, e.g- allies could be given advantage on perception to spot a hidden ally because they know who they're looking for, what they were wearing etc. It's not much of a stretch in cases where the contest isn't really adding anything to just choose which side "wins", but that's very much DM fiat.
Personally even when grappling/shoving allies I'd still ask for a roll because if you just run up to an ally and Shove them they might still instinctively react unless they're prepared for it to happen, but I'd maybe throw advantage or disadvantage into the mix if they're not expecting it (probably wouldn't be).
I never would have expected a "hide from allies" side conversation to go on for so long when it so obviously makes no sense. Let's just take a moment to step back and review how we got here:
I pointed out the the rules for Hiding quite clearly state that you are hidden until you are discovered. Therefore, once an enemy discovers you, you are no longer hidden from other enemies. It is a simplified rule, like many 5e rules. I am not even saying that this is the best way to play the game. There are many simplified rules in 5e that can be improved through homebrew if a DM can find a good way to add a bit of complexity that is well balanced and makes sense. This might be one of those cases.
However, a poster then tried to make a claim that if what I said was true then you would never be able to Hide next to your allies and a Halfling would not be able to Hide behind a horse. Because . . . the ally or the horse would automatically discover you? I mean, it's outlandish.
So, I set about on the process of directly quoting from the rules and other sources to disprove that claim, which I have done so in several ways.
I'll attempt to summarize:
First, the rule:
The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence . . . You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly . . . In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around . . . When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature's Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties.
This says:
When you try to hide, you make a Stealth check. That check is contested by any creature that tries to discover you by finding or noticing you UNTIL YOU ARE DISCOVERED.
There is exactly one best way to interpret that and then there are other ways which do not align with the rule as written.
It is NOT any creature. It is any creature that chooses to participate in this contest with the intention of discovering you. Allies do not do this by definition. Allies do not take hostile actions against their allies. Even if an ally sees you, they do not "discover" you -- they are not trying to blow your cover. They are on your side. If instead an ally participates in this contest and then intentionally blows your cover during combat then they are a traitor and by definition not an ally. This doesn't have to be spelled out in the rules. An ally, by definition, does not do this.
This is why it is perfectly fine to jump into a foxhole next to your ally and together you Hide from your enemies until you are discovered. My ally in the foxhole with me is not discovering me. He is not participating in the contest. He is on my side. Likewise, the horse in front of the Halfling has absolutely no interest in participating in such a contest (usually).
This whole thing really is not rocket science. The rule says that you are hidden until you are discovered. And so that's what happens.
One more thing, there's no rule for ally or enemy creatures to willingly fail an ability check, wether active or passive.
Was that in response to me?
No it was in response to posts from up2ng "Your allies do NOT roll a perception check to try to "discover" you when you hide." and "Allies do not oppose each other in contests during battle."
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''Notice you'' sppears in Hiding rules i quoted. I never referred to Surprise rules. As i told you before in post #48;
I think the Surprise rules get you confused on how hiding works, they're independant and being hidden is not a condition but a status in respect to another creature resulting from a contest either noticing you or failing to discover you, and thus remaining hidden from it, where with Surprise the moment you notice a threat you aren't Surprised.
If once you're seen and heard by a creature you're no longer unseen and unheard thus not hidden from anyone, then group stealth would be impossible and halfling couldn't hide when obscured by a larger creature because said creature would see it making it not unseen anymore.
So it imply you can be hidden from some creature while not from others.
Once again:
I don't think I understand what you mean here. Are you talking about being hidden from your allies? We don't typically hide from our own allies.
I think Plaguescarred makes an interesting point.The rules actually don't treat allies any differently from opponents in the context of hiding. They only discuss how one creature can be considered hidden from another so the point made about a halfling hiding behind a creature that is one size larger still stands since the rules don't discuss whether that creature has to be an ally or any enemy.
The halfling rules state:
"Naturally Stealthy. You can attempt to hide even when you are obscured only by a creature that is at least one size larger than you."
This means that a halfling fighting a group of medium or larger bandits could hide behind one of the bandits in order to be hidden from the other bandits. Otherwise, the racial ability makes no sense since it does not specify hiding behind friendly creatures it just specifies ANY creature at least one size larger.
If the rules intended that a creature who is noticed by ANY creature is then noticed by all creatures then it would be impossible to hide at all behind any creature based on the all or nothing interpretation of hiding.(you can't assume allies are different from opponents since the rules don't include that).
Hiding behind ANY creature that is one size larger only makes sense in the context of being able to hide from some creatures and not others because the halfling attempting to hide can't hide from the creature they are hiding behind but can hide from creatures on the other side of it.
I get what you guys are saying there but I'm not buying it. Hiding is not meant to apply to allies, that's just common sense. If we need to find some technicality from the text that confirms this then I point us back to the phrase "until you are discovered". The word "discovered" has a certain connotation to it in this context that would not apply to allies. Allies do not "discover" you.
But honestly, this really isn't something that should have to be proven. It is inherent in the plain English meaning of the word "hidden". When someone hides, it implies that they don't want the people that they are hiding from to find them. Allies could care less if you find them or not. You don't hide from your allies. We're really going into the weeds here if this is going to be the main argument in favor of being able to remain hidden from some enemies after being discovered by THEIR allies.
In my example, the halfling was using a bandit to hide from other bandits. RAW that is ok since the halfling ability says they can hide behind any creature one size larger and that does not specify that the creature they are hiding behind is an ally. I think you would suggest that the rules imply this simply doesn't work because the halfling can't hide from some creatures but not others and that hiding only applies to enemies and not allies ... however, that isn't what the halfling ability says and the rules also do not state that hiding only applies to enemies and not allies.
Sad that a party of friends can't play hide and seek :)
Yes, that's how I would rule that situation. "The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding". The Halfling ability provides an additional circumstance that might be appropriate which would never be appropriate for any other race, but just like every other attempt to hide, the DM first adjudicates if it is even possible in the specific situation. Instead of allowing the player to make the attempt and waste their turn, I would simply fall back on "In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around" and "You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly" and allow them to choose a different action.
Keep in mind that the Halfling ability is not restricted to only hiding behind allies. He can also attempt to hide behind a neutral creature such as a horse. But trying to hide behind an enemy that can see you clearly that might be about to punch you in the face makes no sense. The ability is called "naturally stealthy" -- there is nothing stealthy about a situation like that.
Again, some things really shouldn't have to be so precisely spelled out in the text. At some point we need to rely on the common usage of the word "hide" and what is trying to be accomplished by someone who hides. Perhaps we could rule that the enemy will temporarily provide some cover vs another enemy behind it (the rules for cover mention half-cover from a creature by default) which provides some benefits, but that's not the same thing as being hidden. I would not allow it.
We do not typically hide from our allies because the idea behind hiding is that we do not want to be found and this does not apply to allies. HOWEVER, if for some reason we were playing a game of hide and seek with our allies, THEN we could attempt to hide from them. Based on the common usage of the word "hide" it now makes sense. NOW we do not want our allies to find us. For all intents and purposes during that game, those allies become enemies during the game of hide and seek.
How is that common sense? If you're neither visible or audible then how do your allies know where you are unless you told them what your plan was (e.g- "I'm going to go hide behind that building over there")?
It's arguably less common sense for the hiding rules to only apply to enemies, because that would mean there is something weird going on that the rules don't cover as far as I can see? The rules don't make reference to enemies, only creatures, so your allies are equally affected unless you take steps to prevent that. The purpose of the Hide action is to break awareness of your location, i.e- to become both unseen and unheard, and to allow you to move so creatures now have to guess at your location.
It's no different to being invisible; that condition makes you unseen by enemies, but also allies, so you can't be targeted by any spell that requires them to see you unless they happen to have see invisibility or truesight, which is an important drawback you don't hear about much. If a character were to go invisible and then get stuck, how are there allies to know unless that character calls for help or becomes visible again?
The difference with hiding is that it's not all-or-nothing; you can be hidden from some creatures and not others. For example, if you hide on the north side of a wall, creatures also to the north of the wall can still see you, but you can become hidden from creatures to the south. If creatures to the south saw you cross the wall, they know where you were but if you hide and then move they can either assume you are still where you hopped over, or have to guess which direction you might have gone etc.
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I can't help but chime in again that it's a little bit amusing that Hide-and-Seek was used as an example. In games of Hide-and-Seek that I've played you hide somewhere until you are discovered. When you are discovered, that's it -- the game is over for you. You are NOT still hidden from other players!
You hide from any creature, not just enemies since the rules don't make such distinction. When a game element intend to affect enemies only, it specifically say so.
Interesting :) .. in the games of Hide and Seek that I have played ... the only person who knows where you are hiding is the one who found you and perhaps anyone else who happens to have a clear view of where you were hiding. Everyone else doesn't actually know where you are even after being found. :)
Guys, you don't hide from your allies. Just like you don't Disengage from your allies, you don't Dodge your allies, you don't Grapple your allies and you don't Shove your allies. Your allies are on your side. They are willing participants in your plan. Your allies do NOT roll a perception check to try to "discover" you when you hide. They just don't.
This might blow some people's minds, but it is possible that you cannot see your ally, you cannot hear your ally and you do not know the location of your ally -- and yet, that ally is NOT hidden from you!
Mechanically, that is not how hiding works. You can be temporarily silent and out of sight, but you still have to actually take the Hide action to become hidden. It doesn't just passively happen. It requires an action -- that's because you are doing something with a specific intent or motivation. You are being stealthy, trying not to be discovered. But that part doesn't apply to allies. Allies are not trying to discover you.
According to the rules, "When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check". This check is a required step. You cannot hide without a die roll. That die roll is what MAKES you hidden. That die roll has a specific purpose, which is in line with the narrative of what hiding actually means. That die roll participates in one or more contests whereby "any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence" can attempt to discover you. Your ally is NOT such a creature. Your ally is not going to participate in this contest. And yet, this entire mechanical picture is what constitutes hiding according to the rules.
I agree insofar as you can be hidden from your enemies but not from your allies. However, you cannot be hidden from some enemies but not others -- there is no rule that says that you can. You have not quoted one, nor has anyone else in this thread.
Incorrect. According to the rules, you hide from "any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence." Not just "any creature". Allies do not do this. Enemies do this. Likewise, the passive portion of the rule applies to creatures that are applying their passive perception in order to "notice you". Allies are not trying to "notice you" in this context and connotation. Their passive perception is never applied to the contest that is required to succeed in order to "notice you".
You don't hide from your allies. Come on, guys.
Actual rules citation, please.
You don't Disengage from allies because the movement rules distinguish between friends and foes, the hiding rules do not.
You can Grapple and Shove your allies if you want to, in fact it's a perfectly legitimate means of getting them out of harms way on your turn rather than waiting for theirs, since grappling a creature enables you to move it (at half speed) and shoving can push them away in a direction of your choice.
Actual rules citation, please.
So allies being psychically linked without the aid of magic is now "common sense" is it?
That's not how the rules work; what you're describing is meta-gaming, and a DM is well within their rights to shut that down. If you want your allies to know where you are, or will be, hiding then you need to communicate that to their characters somehow.
You are free to discuss with your DM wether that needs to happen explicitly, or whether you can just assume any plan made by the group is communicated with all members, but the moment a character is hiding somewhere the group wasn't aware of, they are also hidden from the group.
Which is what this thread is about.
They are if they don't know where you are, which they won't if you hide. The rules for being unseen don't distinguish between friend or foe, nor do the rules for hiding; once hidden a creature must search either actively or passively for "signs of your presence", i.e- at this point creatures do not know where you are if they cannot see or otherwise detect you.
That is common sense, because that is what hiding is.
Then you don't agree at all because you're ignoring entirely what I said.
It is fully possible to be hidden from some creatures and not others, because some are differently positioned, have darkvision etc.
Your position might become known to others if one that can see/detect you communicates where you are, but that's something of a grey area or up to your DM whether to roll for successfully communicating etc. Strictly speaking in such a case only the creature(s) that can see you can see you, to the others you're still hidden, they're just hurling attacks at where they think you are, which may or may not be correct.
The rules for hiding make no such distinction; you are inventing rules here. If an ally doesn't know where you are, then they must search like anyone else, and the rules say nothing about allies automatically always knowing where you are without the aid of magic.
When you hide, you hide from everyone that cannot still see you. The only way to exclude your allies from that is to tell them where you're going to be, though strictly speaking you're still hidden from them, they just know where to lob a healing potion, or draw guards away from or whatever.
If the rules meant for there to be a special distinction between allies and enemies it would say so.
Nobody is trying to notice you in this context; the whole point of passive checks is that they occur when somebody isn't trying to do something, but notices anyway. Like if you walk into your house expecting it to be as you left it, then notice there's a Rogue pretending to be one of your lamps. Unless that's something that happens to you a lot you don't normally walk into your house actively checking for Rogue lamps. 😂
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Sorry, no mention whatsoever of enemies or allies there. We don't disengage from our allies because that makes no sense -- it's common sense.
Nope. You can "grapple" or "shove" an ally, but you do not Grapple and Shove your allies. This is because the rules for Grapple and Shove require "a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use)." Your ally is simply not going to participate in this contest -- he is not resisting. He is on your side.
Wow, that's a pretty silly request. Are you disputing that allies are on your side? Ok . . .
From dictionary.com:
This is not the sort of thing that would be spelled out in the rules. At some point the common usage and meaning of words is assumed.
No, you've missed the point that was being made there. The situation that I described has nothing to do with allies being psychically linked -- they are not. They simply are not hiding from their allies. One ally might not know where the other one is and they might not be able to see him or hear him -- but that other ally does not gain the mechanical benefits of being hidden against his ally. They are not rolling a contested stealth vs perception against each other. They simply cannot see or hear each other. They are not making a conscious effort to avoid being discovered by each other. This is why group stealth works. You and your ally can hop in a foxhole together and hide from your enemies together. You are not discovering each other. You are both attempting to avoid being discovered by the enemy. When you each roll your stealth checks, you are not also rolling perception checks to see if you can discover each other, nor are you attempting to avoid being discovered by each other. You are not hiding from each other. You are hiding from the enemy.
I strongly disagree with all of that. If you are taking the hide action in combat in an effort to prevent me from discovering you and I am actively searching for you in order to discover you -- something has gone wrong. We are no longer allies. Someone is a traitor. Someone has double crossed someone else and has changed their loyalty and allegiance. Because in combat, these are basically hostile actions from both sides. One is only going through the trouble to take an action to hide from the other because the other is a threat. If I am trying to discover you then I am indeed a threat. Allies do not behave this way. We do not take hostile combat actions against each other. We do not make contested checks against each other.
What in the world? I constantly cut and paste exact text and put it in quotation marks or in blockquotes and I am somehow inventing something? Of course an ally doesn't automatically know where you are. The point is that they are not going to search with the intent of discovering you. They are not trying to blow your cover. They are on your side. Likewise, you are not trying to hide from your ally. That is not the purpose of your stealth roll.
You've missed the point again. According to the rules, when you try to hide you are attempting to avoid two outcomes. You are trying to not be discovered by someone who is actively looking for you and you are trying to prevent being passively noticed by someone in the area. Both of these outcomes are undesirable, which is why there is an action that can be taken to attempt to avoid them. When it comes to your allies, you really don't care. You are not trying to hide from them and they are not trying to discover you or notice you. If either ally behaved otherwise during combat that would basically be a hostile act against your own ally -- in which case they would no longer be your ally, by definition.
This is a misunderstanding of the hiding rules and mechanics. The distinction is in the mechanics that are described in the rule. Here is what seems to be missed ever since this hiding from allies nonsense of a side conversation began:
Hiding is a contest of skill checks. Really it's a series of contests as you continue to try to hide while more and more people try to discover you. Allies do not oppose each other in contests during battle. That is hostile. Hiding is not just moving to an unseen position. Hiding is also not just moving to an unseen position and trying to remain unheard. Hiding during combat is an ACTION that you take which is deliberately attempting to avoid being discovered by attempting to win a contest of stealth vs one or more creatures' perception. The contest is what allows the hiding. No contest, no hiding.
That is the rule.
To try to veer back towards the original topic, when the Hide action is taken during combat, we follow the above rule. This rule tells us two things:
1. We don't hide from our allies since the rule for hiding requires a contest, also known as an opposed check: "Sometimes one character's or monster's efforts are directly opposed to another's". Within the context of any contest, the participants are opposed, not allied.
2. The stealth check that allows a creature to become and remain hidden remains in effect and is used in all current and future contests "until you are discovered or you stop hiding". Therefore, when you are discovered you are no longer hidden.
Those are the rules for hiding. Directly quoted.
But they don't say what you claim they do.
I'm not going to bother pulling apart your post into separate quotes again as it's just a waste of time and space. It seems to me that your entire argument hinges on the idea that allies cannot make contested checks, and that therefore a contested check can't happen, but this simply isn't the case.
The rules for contests do not specify that allies are ineligible for contested checks, in fact it very clearly doesn't say anything to that effect. If I want, I can lie to, pickpocket or wrestle my allies, as nothing mechanically prevents me from doing so (though the DM/group might get annoyed if I keep doing it).
All the rules say is that contests usually occur when two actions are in opposition, one side doesn't want the other to succeed, or only one can "win" a given situation. That's the general rule. But as always, specific beats general, and actions such as a Grapple, Shove or Hiding specifically require contested checks, which means the contest takes place whether you want it to or not.
With specific reference to the Hiding rules, any creature that needs "signs of your presence" must either passively detect you, or actively search for you, in which case a contested check will occur. There is no reference to allies or enemies, only creatures; therefore all creatures need to do one of these things to find you. The only exception is for any creature(s) that can see you, as you were never going to be hidden from them to begin with.
While a DM could rule that a contest isn't necessary via DM fiat, the proper way to do that would be to choose one side to automatically fail the contest (because they're not trying to win), or they do it in RAW by applying disadvantage. This works fine for grappling, shoving etc. because these are one-versus-one contests, but in the case of hiding you only make one Stealth check for all creatures, so to choose not to be hidden from allies you would need to choose to fail your Stealth check in which case you wouldn't be hidden to begin with, so by that method you absolutely can remain known to your allies, by also being known to your enemies, because you aren't hiding (or choose to try and hide poorly). Alternatively the DM could give advantage to the allies to spot their hidden friend, but you still need to search actively or passively in that case.
But that's a bit off-topic, the point is that Stealth differs from Disengaging because the movement and opportunity attack rules explicitly distinguish between allies and enemies (hostile creatures) in a way that the stealth/hiding rules do not. Only hostile creatures make opportunity attacks, which is why you do not need to Disengage from allies.
Even if we were to accept your argument that allies don't need to roll contests against allies (despite it being unsupported in the rules), the note on passive perception in the Hiding rules would still apply, because this covers creatures "even if they aren't searching". Because the lack of a contest check doesn't mean a creature is aware of you, it just means the contested check didn't occur. Since their passive perception may not be enough to find you, they would then need to actively search anyway.
Now whether or not allies actually need to roll Perception to find you depends upon whether they need to find you in the first place; it would be impractical for the DM to roll perception checks or consult passive perception for every creature in the multiverse just because one creature took the Hide action. Instead we only roll for those that might detect them and do something about it, or who are trying to detect them, e.g- enemies who know someone is in the area, but not where they are exactly, allies who are trying to keep track of their friend while watching from afar etc. The point is that the contest usually only occurs when it needs to occur, you don't have to roll for everyone immediately.
Just because allies don't normally need to check (because they don't normally need to know where a hidden ally is), doesn't mean they will never need to.
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You don't Disengage from
alliescreatures, you just take the action and your movement doesn't provoke opportunity attacks for the rest of the turn. You already don't provoke fromalliesnon-hostile creature land now you don't provoke from hostile creatures as well.Any game element that target a creature, such as Grapple or Shove can be an ally or enemy.
You can even find Dev Jeremy Crawford discussing grappling a friend during a Dragon Talk: Sage Advice podcast on TwitchTV (25:30)
One more thing, there's no rule for ally or enemy creatures to willingly fail an ability check, wether active or passive.
Was that in response to me? I've tried to clarify my wording as I was talking mainly about how a DM could choose to decide the contest isn't necessary as a DM call, that wasn't intended as a rules statement.
In strict RAW the DM can always apply advantage or disadvantage however they like, so they can stack a contest in favour of one side or the other, e.g- allies could be given advantage on perception to spot a hidden ally because they know who they're looking for, what they were wearing etc. It's not much of a stretch in cases where the contest isn't really adding anything to just choose which side "wins", but that's very much DM fiat.
Personally even when grappling/shoving allies I'd still ask for a roll because if you just run up to an ally and Shove them they might still instinctively react unless they're prepared for it to happen, but I'd maybe throw advantage or disadvantage into the mix if they're not expecting it (probably wouldn't be).
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Haravikk,
I never would have expected a "hide from allies" side conversation to go on for so long when it so obviously makes no sense. Let's just take a moment to step back and review how we got here:
I pointed out the the rules for Hiding quite clearly state that you are hidden until you are discovered. Therefore, once an enemy discovers you, you are no longer hidden from other enemies. It is a simplified rule, like many 5e rules. I am not even saying that this is the best way to play the game. There are many simplified rules in 5e that can be improved through homebrew if a DM can find a good way to add a bit of complexity that is well balanced and makes sense. This might be one of those cases.
However, a poster then tried to make a claim that if what I said was true then you would never be able to Hide next to your allies and a Halfling would not be able to Hide behind a horse. Because . . . the ally or the horse would automatically discover you? I mean, it's outlandish.
So, I set about on the process of directly quoting from the rules and other sources to disprove that claim, which I have done so in several ways.
I'll attempt to summarize:
First, the rule:
This says:
When you try to hide, you make a Stealth check. That check is contested by any creature that tries to discover you by finding or noticing you UNTIL YOU ARE DISCOVERED.
There is exactly one best way to interpret that and then there are other ways which do not align with the rule as written.
It is NOT any creature. It is any creature that chooses to participate in this contest with the intention of discovering you. Allies do not do this by definition. Allies do not take hostile actions against their allies. Even if an ally sees you, they do not "discover" you -- they are not trying to blow your cover. They are on your side. If instead an ally participates in this contest and then intentionally blows your cover during combat then they are a traitor and by definition not an ally. This doesn't have to be spelled out in the rules. An ally, by definition, does not do this.
This is why it is perfectly fine to jump into a foxhole next to your ally and together you Hide from your enemies until you are discovered. My ally in the foxhole with me is not discovering me. He is not participating in the contest. He is on my side. Likewise, the horse in front of the Halfling has absolutely no interest in participating in such a contest (usually).
This whole thing really is not rocket science. The rule says that you are hidden until you are discovered. And so that's what happens.
No it was in response to posts from up2ng "Your allies do NOT roll a perception check to try to "discover" you when you hide." and "Allies do not oppose each other in contests during battle."