Back in 3 and 3.5 days, Dex mods never added to melee damage. I thought this was a nice balance. You could go finesse, but never have the same melee damage as a Barbarian or a Fighter.
Now, in 5E, you get to add whatever ability mod you use for your attack to your damage. To me, this makes Dexterity severely unbalanced. Why would I make a strength based melee fighter, when I can make a dex based melee fighter? With a high strength, you get good melee damage and high carry capacity. With high dexterity, you can get good ranged attacks and damage, melee attacks and damage, initiative, AC, and I'm sure I'm leaving out a bunch of other things.
Am I missing something here? Is Strength actually worth anything, or can a player just focus on dexterity, and be great at nearly every aspect of combat?
The weapons might be larger dice, but the damage output isn't as high.
20 Str greataxe = d12+5 = Maximum damage 17
20 Dex two weapon finesse fighting (with whatever class gives you two weapon focus) = (rapier)d8+5 and (shortsword) d6+5 = Maximum damage 24
In terms of the armor, yes the DEX is limited with medium and heavy armor. Still, if you have 20 Dex and are wearing Studded Leather armor, you'll have an AC of 17. Your max AC with heavy armor is Plate Mail at 18 AC. One point less AC, but you get a better initiative, high quality ranged attacks, and high quality melee attacks? Sounds pretty uneven to me.
Max damage is not a good discriminating factor for comparison when you have to do 2 attack to succeed. And a rapier is not a light weapon. Can be used only with the feat dual wielder.
The average damage with 2 shortsword (considering a +5 modifier) is 9.35. with a greataxe with the same modifier is 6.35 without bonus action and without considering the great weapon fighting style.
Ah. Fair enough. Forgot about the main hand being a light weapon as well.
Still . . . .it seems that STR gets you a slightly better advantage in melee damage, but DEX applies to so much that the couple points lost in melee damage and one point lost in AC is not equal to all the things that DEX can apply to in combat.
I want to be proven wrong, as my favorite character to play is the brute with the axe. If the system is leaning towards the DEX based melee fighter, that would make me sad, but probably not deter me from playing the brute with the axe.
+5 dex is way better than having most medium and light armors because you don't have disadvantage on stealth checks. Dex is the single most useful skill in the game, so it made sense that it didn't add to damage, but I'm sure complaints that it didn't is what drove them to do so (that and making attacks always the same).
I would also argue that a bow is better than any melee weapon. 2d6 (up close) vs 1d8 (distance) with the other bonuses dex adds, you are almost always better off being a dex based anything.
Back in 3 and 3.5 days, Dex mods never added to melee damage. I thought this was a nice balance. You could go finesse, but never have the same melee damage as a Barbarian or a Fighter.
Now, in 5E, you get to add whatever ability mod you use for your attack to your damage. To me, this makes Dexterity severely unbalanced. Why would I make a strength based melee fighter, when I can make a dex based melee fighter? With a high strength, you get good melee damage and high carry capacity. With high dexterity, you can get good ranged attacks and damage, melee attacks and damage, initiative, AC, and I'm sure I'm leaving out a bunch of other things.
Am I missing something here? Is Strength actually worth anything, or can a player just focus on dexterity, and be great at nearly every aspect of combat?
I can not answer your question but wondered if you knew LEGO just released the new Collectable Minifigure Series that has a figure that looks like your avatar...
Ah. Fair enough. Forgot about the main hand being a light weapon as well.
Still . . . .it seems that STR gets you a slightly better advantage in melee damage, but DEX applies to so much that the couple points lost in melee damage and one point lost in AC is not equal to all the things that DEX can apply to in combat.
I want to be proven wrong, as my favorite character to play is the brute with the axe. If the system is leaning towards the DEX based melee fighter, that would make me sad, but probably not deter me from playing the brute with the axe.
I agree that in a vacuum Dexterity is generally a more useful ability, but which one's better for any given character depends highly on their class and feats.
Barbarians don't get their Rage damage bonus unless they attack with Strength. Barbarians also get to add their Constitution to their unarmored AC and get resistance to weapon damage while raging so they don't need high Dexterity to have good survivability.
Paladins, Fighters and Clerics often use heavy armor and thus don't need Dexterity for their AC. Most of a Paladin's class features require melee weapon attacks and they don't get the Two-Weapon Fighting style, so they usually use a non-light one-handed weapon or a two-handed weapon.
Strength is needed for grappling and shoving, which have a ton of uses (e.g. keeping flying enemies grounded or forcing enemies to stay inside an area spell). Barbarians are good at this since Rage gives advantage on Strength checks. It's possible to make specialized Monk and Rogue builds for this too (Monks can grapple two creatures and still make unarmed strikes; Rogues can pick Athletics as one of their Expertise skills.)
The Great Weapon Fighting and Polearm Master feats only work with Strength weapons. Barbarians can make really good use of these since they can give themselves advantage with Reckless Attack to offset the attack roll penalty, and getting more attacks lets them apply their rage damage bonus more often. These feats also complement Battle Master Fighters nicely (more attacks = more chances to use maneuvers, and Precision Attack can turn a GWF near-miss into a hit.) There's other ways to get constant advantage for Great Weapon Fighting too: having a Wolf Barbarian in the party, a Druid that supports with Faerie Fire, or someone that shoves enemies prone.
Berserker Barbarians can make a bonus action attack every single turn while frenzied regardless of which weapon they're using. Likewise the Haste spell grants targets one more attack. Fighter's Commander Strike maneuver lets a party member make an attack as a reaction. All of these favor the extra damage of two-handed weapons.
a few things work against Dex being flat out better
1. GWM / Polearm master require STR and are some of the most powerful melee feats available.
2. Armor/AC. Studded Leather + 5 (from 20 dex) is 17 AC. Plate is 18. So you will stay 1 point behind the str heavy armor user provided other things remain the same (using a shield or magical item found). It is important to note that in the extremely late game it might be possible to get your dex over 23 which would then actually be better than STR.
3. Dex has a very limited selection of weapons. Shortswords, rapiers, scimitars, daggers, whips. Depending on the campaign, finding a magic item may be extremely rare. If a Str user finds any finesse weapon, they can still use it with Str. However if your Rogue finds a longsword, axe, hammer, or whatnot, they have to make a decision, do I use my mundane weapon that my character is built around, or the magical one?
That said, feats are optional rules. And what magical items are available is really up to the campaign so isn't static in any sense.
Back in 3 and 3.5 days, Dex mods never added to melee damage. I thought this was a nice balance. You could go finesse, but never have the same melee damage as a Barbarian or a Fighter.
Now, in 5E, you get to add whatever ability mod you use for your attack to your damage. To me, this makes Dexterity severely unbalanced. Why would I make a strength based melee fighter, when I can make a dex based melee fighter? With a high strength, you get good melee damage and high carry capacity. With high dexterity, you can get good ranged attacks and damage, melee attacks and damage, initiative, AC, and I'm sure I'm leaving out a bunch of other things.
Am I missing something here? Is Strength actually worth anything, or can a player just focus on dexterity, and be great at nearly every aspect of combat?
I can not answer your question but wondered if you knew LEGO just released the new Collectable Minifigure Series that has a figure that looks like your avatar...
I hear this argument in my area a lot as well. Great points made here. I think they're both pretty even. I think Dex only edges out in the fact that some great skills & the oft used dex save make dex a pretty boss governing stat and really hard to make a dump stat compared to Str. Still over all at the tables I've dungeon mastered and games I've played in I've not seen in actual play that big of an imbalance. Probably more so in ranged vs various other fighting styles but that only matters on paper. In play a good DM can use terrain / monster type / circumstances to allow each type of possible uber build to shine or be hindered. But dex is pretty great! I like that a dex fighter is as viable as a 2h weapon fighter this go around without crawling along an absurd feat tree.
Feats are optional (yet everyone always talks like they aren't) so its hard to say feats and magic items might alter the choice when they aren't default parts of the game. Granted does anyone play without feats and magic items??????
Reasons why Dex is way better
You can have a very good AC without taking a penalty to stealth. Dex weapons can give you two attacks at level one (yes you use a bonus action, but if you don't need it...), which can be better than a d12 or 2d6 weapon. Dex Saves are way more common than Str. saves. and usually have a better results. Half damage vs maybe escaping a grapple which you can escape by killing the foe you were already going to attack anyway. Stealth seems to be more used than anything strength related, which tends to be very campaign specific. Spells and Magic Items can get around many Strength checks. Most Dex checks still require at least a check.
Basically I think you are better off playing a dex character instead of a str. character unless maybe you are playing a barbarian.
Dex weapons can give you two attacks at level one (yes you use a bonus action, but if you don't need it...), which can be better than a d12 or 2d6 weapon.
Dex Saves are way more common than Str. saves. and usually have a better results. Half damage vs maybe escaping a grapple which you can escape by killing the foe you were already going to attack anyway. Stealth seems to be more used than anything strength related, which tends to be very campaign specific. Spells and Magic Items can get around many Strength checks. Most Dex checks still require at least a check.
Basically I think you are better off playing a dex character instead of a str. character unless maybe you are playing a barbarian.
1) You can have 2 attacks at level 1 even with STR. You can use two-weapon fighting even using Strength.
2) There are a lot of STR saves
3) Stealth is very useful that is tru. But Athletics is important has well. In dungeons, a lot of doors can be opened with STR if you don't have proficiency in Thieves tool. Also carrying capacity is a factor for STR.
Well both Dex and Str are important if you're a physical type of character. Dex is very versatile :coolguyemoji , it depends on class and build. Both can work other ways too. I mean I think dex is only ultra important to rogue, skill bard, monks. I've seen the dex paladins and barbarians out there. Fighter's good either way. There's limitations to both. I mean Great Weapon Mastery and Fighting style will in the long run make the multi attack Fighter / the raging + barb damage barbarian on par with any dex build tho'.
Dex weapons can give you two attacks at level one (yes you use a bonus action, but if you don't need it...), which can be better than a d12 or 2d6 weapon.
Dex Saves are way more common than Str. saves. and usually have a better results. Half damage vs maybe escaping a grapple which you can escape by killing the foe you were already going to attack anyway. Stealth seems to be more used than anything strength related, which tends to be very campaign specific. Spells and Magic Items can get around many Strength checks. Most Dex checks still require at least a check.
Basically I think you are better off playing a dex character instead of a str. character unless maybe you are playing a barbarian.
1) You can have 2 attacks at level 1 even with STR. You can use two-weapon fighting even using Strength.
2) There are a lot of STR saves
3) Stealth is very useful that is tru. But Athletics is important has well. In dungeons, a lot of doors can be opened with STR if you don't have proficiency in Thieves tool. Also carrying capacity is a factor for STR.
The thing about Strength saves is that failing them isn't the end of the world; usually it just means you'll be moved, grappled, restrained, or knocked down. On the other hand failing a Dexterity save can mean anything from taking a lot of damage to getting petrified, disintegrated or falling down a cliff.
If you had to pick one or the other, Dexterity would be the smarter choice.
Dex weapons can give you two attacks at level one (yes you use a bonus action, but if you don't need it...), which can be better than a d12 or 2d6 weapon.
Dex Saves are way more common than Str. saves. and usually have a better results. Half damage vs maybe escaping a grapple which you can escape by killing the foe you were already going to attack anyway. Stealth seems to be more used than anything strength related, which tends to be very campaign specific. Spells and Magic Items can get around many Strength checks. Most Dex checks still require at least a check.
Basically I think you are better off playing a dex character instead of a str. character unless maybe you are playing a barbarian.
1) You can have 2 attacks at level 1 even with STR. You can use two-weapon fighting even using Strength.
2) There are a lot of STR saves
3) Stealth is very useful that is tru. But Athletics is important has well. In dungeons, a lot of doors can be opened with STR if you don't have proficiency in Thieves tool. Also carrying capacity is a factor for STR.
Carrying capacity is almost always thrown out the door in a game, and when it isn't a bag of holding quickly fixes that. Almost everything you need for Athletics can be circumvented by having spells. Further it is possible to walk around the cliff instead of climbing up it. Might take longer, but if everyone in the party does it, it isn't really all that different than climbing.
There might be a lot of str. saves, but there is easily double the number of dex saves and a vast majority of spells that require dex saves as opposed to str. saves.
While spells can help make you stealthy, they don't replace the stealth row, whereas spells do replace the strength rolls.
I think you all missed the worst part. Dex is the prime stat for all casters. Having high dex negates the use of damage cantrips. Why use sacred flame for 1d8 damage sv for 1/2 when you can shoot the bad guy with a 1d8+dex mod bow?
also why doesn’t INT, WIS, CHR affect spells in more ways ?
DEX also makes your mage drastically less squishy, improves her initiative etc.
I think you all missed the worst part. Dex is the prime stat for all casters. Having high dex negates the use of damage cantrips. Why use sacred flame for 1d8 damage sv for 1/2 when you can shoot the bad guy with a 1d8+dex mod bow?
The monster you're fighting forces you to look away or bad things happen (e.g. medusa, bodak)
Someone cast Bane or Bestow Curse on the monster, penalizing its dexterity saving throws.
You're currently restrained, blinded, or prone.
There's an enemy within 5 feet of you that can see you and isn't incapacitated.
Radiant damage prevents the monster from regenerating or hanging on with 1 HP (e.g. vampires, zombie.)
You're 5th level or higher and now sacred flame deals 2d8, 3d8, or 4d8 damage.
You're an 8th level cleric with Potent Spellcasting or a 6th level celestial warlock with Radiant Soul and can add your spellcasting ability to the cantrip's damage.
You want to use one of your hands for something else (like holding a shield.)
DEX also makes your mage drastically less squishy, improves her initiative etc.
Sure, but they also have to invest in their spellcasting ability and CON.
Back in 3 and 3.5 days, Dex mods never added to melee damage. I thought this was a nice balance. You could go finesse, but never have the same melee damage as a Barbarian or a Fighter.
Now, in 5E, you get to add whatever ability mod you use for your attack to your damage. To me, this makes Dexterity severely unbalanced. Why would I make a strength based melee fighter, when I can make a dex based melee fighter? With a high strength, you get good melee damage and high carry capacity. With high dexterity, you can get good ranged attacks and damage, melee attacks and damage, initiative, AC, and I'm sure I'm leaving out a bunch of other things.
Am I missing something here? Is Strength actually worth anything, or can a player just focus on dexterity, and be great at nearly every aspect of combat?
The most powerful weapons are Strength based. Also DEX bonus for AC for medium and heavy armour is limited.
The weapons might be larger dice, but the damage output isn't as high.
20 Str greataxe = d12+5 = Maximum damage 17
20 Dex two weapon finesse fighting (with whatever class gives you two weapon focus) = (rapier)d8+5 and (shortsword) d6+5 = Maximum damage 24
In terms of the armor, yes the DEX is limited with medium and heavy armor. Still, if you have 20 Dex and are wearing Studded Leather armor, you'll have an AC of 17. Your max AC with heavy armor is Plate Mail at 18 AC. One point less AC, but you get a better initiative, high quality ranged attacks, and high quality melee attacks? Sounds pretty uneven to me.
Max damage is not a good discriminating factor for comparison when you have to do 2 attack to succeed. And a rapier is not a light weapon. Can be used only with the feat dual wielder.
The average damage with 2 shortsword (considering a +5 modifier) is 9.35. with a greataxe with the same modifier is 6.35 without bonus action and without considering the great weapon fighting style.
Ah. Fair enough. Forgot about the main hand being a light weapon as well.
Still . . . .it seems that STR gets you a slightly better advantage in melee damage, but DEX applies to so much that the couple points lost in melee damage and one point lost in AC is not equal to all the things that DEX can apply to in combat.
I want to be proven wrong, as my favorite character to play is the brute with the axe. If the system is leaning towards the DEX based melee fighter, that would make me sad, but probably not deter me from playing the brute with the axe.
Also, With 2 weapon fighting is still possible to use STR. the light property of weapon does not exclude strength as ability.
+5 dex is way better than having most medium and light armors because you don't have disadvantage on stealth checks. Dex is the single most useful skill in the game, so it made sense that it didn't add to damage, but I'm sure complaints that it didn't is what drove them to do so (that and making attacks always the same).
I would also argue that a bow is better than any melee weapon. 2d6 (up close) vs 1d8 (distance) with the other bonuses dex adds, you are almost always better off being a dex based anything.
I can not answer your question but wondered if you knew LEGO just released the new Collectable Minifigure Series that has a figure that looks like your avatar...
http://minifigpriceguide.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/lego-cmf17-figure10.jpg
Coincidence?
a few things work against Dex being flat out better
1. GWM / Polearm master require STR and are some of the most powerful melee feats available.
2. Armor/AC. Studded Leather + 5 (from 20 dex) is 17 AC. Plate is 18. So you will stay 1 point behind the str heavy armor user provided other things remain the same (using a shield or magical item found). It is important to note that in the extremely late game it might be possible to get your dex over 23 which would then actually be better than STR.
3. Dex has a very limited selection of weapons. Shortswords, rapiers, scimitars, daggers, whips. Depending on the campaign, finding a magic item may be extremely rare. If a Str user finds any finesse weapon, they can still use it with Str. However if your Rogue finds a longsword, axe, hammer, or whatnot, they have to make a decision, do I use my mundane weapon that my character is built around, or the magical one?
That said, feats are optional rules. And what magical items are available is really up to the campaign so isn't static in any sense.
All good points everyone. Thank you
I hear this argument in my area a lot as well. Great points made here. I think they're both pretty even. I think Dex only edges out in the fact that some great skills & the oft used dex save make dex a pretty boss governing stat and really hard to make a dump stat compared to Str.
Still over all at the tables I've dungeon mastered and games I've played in I've not seen in actual play that big of an imbalance. Probably more so in ranged vs various other fighting styles but that only matters on paper. In play a good DM can use terrain / monster type / circumstances to allow each type of possible uber build to shine or be hindered.
But dex is pretty great! I like that a dex fighter is as viable as a 2h weapon fighter this go around without crawling along an absurd feat tree.
Feats are optional (yet everyone always talks like they aren't) so its hard to say feats and magic items might alter the choice when they aren't default parts of the game. Granted does anyone play without feats and magic items??????
Reasons why Dex is way better
You can have a very good AC without taking a penalty to stealth.
Dex weapons can give you two attacks at level one (yes you use a bonus action, but if you don't need it...), which can be better than a d12 or 2d6 weapon.
Dex Saves are way more common than Str. saves. and usually have a better results. Half damage vs maybe escaping a grapple which you can escape by killing the foe you were already going to attack anyway.
Stealth seems to be more used than anything strength related, which tends to be very campaign specific.
Spells and Magic Items can get around many Strength checks. Most Dex checks still require at least a check.
Basically I think you are better off playing a dex character instead of a str. character unless maybe you are playing a barbarian.
Well both Dex and Str are important if you're a physical type of character. Dex is very versatile :coolguyemoji , it depends on class and build. Both can work other ways too. I mean I think dex is only ultra important to rogue, skill bard, monks. I've seen the dex paladins and barbarians out there. Fighter's good either way. There's limitations to both. I mean Great Weapon Mastery and Fighting style will in the long run make the multi attack Fighter / the raging + barb damage barbarian on par with any dex build tho'.
I think you all missed the worst part. Dex is the prime stat for all casters. Having high dex negates the use of damage cantrips. Why use sacred flame for 1d8 damage sv for 1/2 when you can shoot the bad guy with a 1d8+dex mod bow?
also why doesn’t INT, WIS, CHR affect spells in more ways ?
DEX also makes your mage drastically less squishy, improves her initiative etc.
I can think of so many reasons:
Sure, but they also have to invest in their spellcasting ability and CON.