Hi Everyone I didn't want to necro a thread so I'm going to quote a rule interpretation about surprise that I've seen is VERY common when I search, however I'm not sure is correct.
Technicality: The fact that a combatant is no longer surprised when their turn ends is usually irrelevant, but it does make a difference for the Assassin's "assassinate" trait, and the surprised combatant's capability to use Reactions. I suggest not to bother with such fringe cases for the time being, however - just remember you go by initiative, and everyone surprised misses out on the first turn.
The rule states "If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't."
To me the fact that surprise starts on the start of the turn, you cannot take an action on your turn but because you ALSO can't take a reaction until the turn ends, that means that you are surprised until the end of the first turn. Otherwise if you weren't still surprised the phrase "you can't take a reaction until that turn ends" would no longer apply to you.
Rewriting it as "If you're surprised, you can't take a reaction until that turn ends" might make it more clear. Unless there's been an official ruling somewhere I haven't seen that states that you're no longer surprised after your turn, the rule here seems to strongly suggest you're still surprised until the end of that turn.
Other rules references or official clarifications would be lovely as every time I've seen the quoted interpretation it has hinged on the can't take an action on your turn.
Now I can see you arguing that since the person has had their turn, assassinate trait won't work at all including the auto crit which I'm not sure of. I am just arguing the drop of the surprise state.
You right the target who suprised stay surprised until the end of their turn but i don't see what you wanna proof wrong on what you quoted on "technicality guy"
I will take a stab at this and say it's a poorly worded "technicality". Let's look at the Assasinate ability:
Starting at 3rd level, you have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn't taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.
From there we can see that, using only initiative, an Assassin will get advantage on their turn if the target creature hasn't had a turn. This is where the technicality comes in to play, technically a creature could have a Reaction available to them, but you would still get advantage from the Assassinate ability.
However, your assessment about the second half of the ability, the auto-crit, is spot on. They must be surprised, which includes no access to a reaction, in order to get the auto-crit.
Just because a creature hasn't had a turn doesn't equate to surprise, the Assassin only gets advantage. If a surprised creature has a higher initiative than the Assassin, the Assassin only gets advantage on their turn because the creature is no longer surprised.
Depends on how you view the Assassinate trait. Is it two separate parts or does one rely on the other? If you have to have advantage to gain the auto-crit then a surprised character who goes first in initiative is not attacked with advantage and is not auto-crit. If you rule they are separate then even though you wouldn't have advantage you'd still have auto-crit.
The rogue trait is written so that you might rule either way but leans towards it being the case where you need advantage to get the auto-crit: "You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit."
However, the assassin monster is written in a way that supports the argument that they're separate results: "During its first turn, the assassin has advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn't taken a turn. Any hit the assassin scores against a surprised creature is a critical hit."
But neither interpretation matters if the quoted "The fact that a combatant is no longer surprised when their turn ends" is true. Since i'd seen a couple responses saying the same thing I was wondering what support there was for surprise ending after the surprised person's turn rather than the end of that turn. That's the portion I was arguing against.
Surprise doesn't start "at the start of your turn", it is a condition applied at the start of the first round of a battle - when initiative is rolled. Everyone takes their turns in order, with any surprised creatures unable to do anything on their turn, nor take reactions before they have completed that wasted turn. An example:
An Assassin A and a Barbarian B attack goblin X and troll Y. It is decided that X and Y are surprised.
All roll initiative, and the order is X, A, B, Y. The first round commences.
Goblin X cannot act on their first turn due to their surprise. But at the end of their turn they are not surprised anymore.
Assassin A attacks - Goblin X is no longer surprised so A wouldn't get their assassination bonus against X. A chooses to attack Troll Y because Y is still surprised.
Barbarian B chooses to dash right past both enemies. Goblin X can take an Attack of Opportunity (because X has its reaction) but Troll Y cannot because it is still surprised.
Troll Y then does nothing with its turn, ending its surprised state. Round 1 is complete and the battle now continues with no one suffering from surprise anymore.
But neither interpretation matters if the quoted "The fact that a combatant is no longer surprised when their turn ends" is true. Since i'd seen a couple responses saying the same thing I was wondering what support there was for surprise ending after the surprised person's turn rather than the end of that turn. That's the portion I was arguing against.
Page 189 PHB: (emphasis mine)
If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a Reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren’t.
And now going back on myself, as it states that turn, not that round and I was getting mixed up thinking that it meant the end of the round. So the quoted interpretation is correct.
Edit: wow I missed a lot of replies when I posted this response. But yeah storm knight had it right I was confusing turn and round.
But neither interpretation matters if the quoted "The fact that a combatant is no longer surprised when their turn ends" is true. Since i'd seen a couple responses saying the same thing I was wondering what support there was for surprise ending after the surprised person's turn rather than the end of that turn. That's the portion I was arguing against.
Not sure if you confusing it with round like stormknight explained.
otherwise i would ask you give an example how the 2 cases in your mind would mechanicly effect it differently.
Hi Everyone I didn't want to necro a thread so I'm going to quote a rule interpretation about surprise that I've seen is VERY common when I search, however I'm not sure is correct.
The rule states "If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't."
To me the fact that surprise starts on the start of the turn, you cannot take an action on your turn but because you ALSO can't take a reaction until the turn ends, that means that you are surprised until the end of the first turn. Otherwise if you weren't still surprised the phrase "you can't take a reaction until that turn ends" would no longer apply to you.
Rewriting it as "If you're surprised, you can't take a reaction until that turn ends" might make it more clear. Unless there's been an official ruling somewhere I haven't seen that states that you're no longer surprised after your turn, the rule here seems to strongly suggest you're still surprised until the end of that turn.
Other rules references or official clarifications would be lovely as every time I've seen the quoted interpretation it has hinged on the can't take an action on your turn.
Now I can see you arguing that since the person has had their turn, assassinate trait won't work at all including the auto crit which I'm not sure of. I am just arguing the drop of the surprise state.
You right the target who suprised stay surprised until the end of their turn but i don't see what you wanna proof wrong on what you quoted on "technicality guy"
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Bunol - Grim Angel - The Floating Lands of Goriate
It's important to note the difference between ROUND and TURN.
The rules are pretty clear that a creature that is surprised is no longer surprised once they reach the end of their turn during the combat round.
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I will take a stab at this and say it's a poorly worded "technicality". Let's look at the Assasinate ability:
From there we can see that, using only initiative, an Assassin will get advantage on their turn if the target creature hasn't had a turn. This is where the technicality comes in to play, technically a creature could have a Reaction available to them, but you would still get advantage from the Assassinate ability.
However, your assessment about the second half of the ability, the auto-crit, is spot on. They must be surprised, which includes no access to a reaction, in order to get the auto-crit.
Just because a creature hasn't had a turn doesn't equate to surprise, the Assassin only gets advantage.
If a surprised creature has a higher initiative than the Assassin, the Assassin only gets advantage on their turn because the creature is no longer surprised.
Depends on how you view the Assassinate trait. Is it two separate parts or does one rely on the other? If you have to have advantage to gain the auto-crit then a surprised character who goes first in initiative is not attacked with advantage and is not auto-crit. If you rule they are separate then even though you wouldn't have advantage you'd still have auto-crit.
The rogue trait is written so that you might rule either way but leans towards it being the case where you need advantage to get the auto-crit: "You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit."
However, the assassin monster is written in a way that supports the argument that they're separate results: "During its first turn, the assassin has advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn't taken a turn. Any hit the assassin scores against a surprised creature is a critical hit."
But neither interpretation matters if the quoted "The fact that a combatant is no longer surprised when their turn ends" is true. Since i'd seen a couple responses saying the same thing I was wondering what support there was for surprise ending after the surprised person's turn rather than the end of that turn. That's the portion I was arguing against.
Surprise doesn't start "at the start of your turn", it is a condition applied at the start of the first round of a battle - when initiative is rolled. Everyone takes their turns in order, with any surprised creatures unable to do anything on their turn, nor take reactions before they have completed that wasted turn. An example:
An Assassin A and a Barbarian B attack goblin X and troll Y. It is decided that X and Y are surprised.
All roll initiative, and the order is X, A, B, Y. The first round commences.
Goblin X cannot act on their first turn due to their surprise. But at the end of their turn they are not surprised anymore.
Assassin A attacks - Goblin X is no longer surprised so A wouldn't get their assassination bonus against X. A chooses to attack Troll Y because Y is still surprised.
Barbarian B chooses to dash right past both enemies. Goblin X can take an Attack of Opportunity (because X has its reaction) but Troll Y cannot because it is still surprised.
Troll Y then does nothing with its turn, ending its surprised state. Round 1 is complete and the battle now continues with no one suffering from surprise anymore.
Page 189 PHB: (emphasis mine)
And now going back on myself, as it states that turn, not that round and I was getting mixed up thinking that it meant the end of the round. So the quoted interpretation is correct.
Edit: wow I missed a lot of replies when I posted this response. But yeah storm knight had it right I was confusing turn and round.
Not sure if you confusing it with round like stormknight explained.
otherwise i would ask you give an example how the 2 cases in your mind would mechanicly effect it differently.
Nox - Adult Oblex - The Trials
Jartrin Ephok - Dragonborn - Zanoliv
Bunol - Grim Angel - The Floating Lands of Goriate