Hm.. as long as I can remember we have always permitted the extra attack feature gained from multiclassing...they are after all spending the rest of their lifetime leveling up another class and their overall lvl is significantly higher..I'm having a hard time understanding why it would be prohibited.
Also, let's say a druid wildshapes into a creature with multi attack..the list of wildshape beasts is pretty weak and at higher levels is little more than an hp buffer. Taking 3 levels in fighter for extra attack wouldn't grant the wildshaped druid additional attacks? His bear form claws twice no matter what lvl... ew ..
RAW, it depends on the actions involved.
Extra Attack says "Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn."
From wildshape it says "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."
The action options from a monster stat block are listed by name.
MM:
"When a monster takes its action, it can choose from the options in the Actions section of its stat block or use one of the actions available to all creatures, such as the Dash or Hide action, as described in the Player’s Handbook.
Melee and Ranged Attacks
The most common actions that a monster will take in combat are melee and ranged attacks. These can be spell attacks or weapon attacks, where the “weapon” might be a manufactured item or a natural weapon, such as a claw or tail spike. For more information on different kinds of attacks, see the Player’s Handbook."
So a monster CAN take the Attack action.
However, RAW, Multiattack is listed in the stat block as a separate action from the attack action. It is not the same as the Extra Attack feature for a character.
"Multiattack
A creature that can make multiple attacks on its turn has the Multiattack ability. A creature can’t use Multiattack when making an opportunity attack, which must be a single melee attack."
So any creature can take the Attack action. A wild shaped druid retains the features of any classes it has - so a wild shaped druid taking the Attack action could make an additional attack using the Extra Attack feature. However, Multiattack is listed in the stat block in the Actions section as a distinct Action. RAW, it isn't just the Attack action with more attacks - it is the Multiattack action.
Putting it all together, a wildshaped druid should be able to use Extra Attack when taking the Attack action and making one attack but it will be a DM call whether the Extra Attack would work with the Multiattack action or not. RAW it probably should not work with Multiattack.
Extra Attack only applies when taking the attack action, and multiattack is a special action, not an attack action.
Somewhat peculiarly, extra attack does not work with ready, but it's totally valid to ready a multiattack (personally, I permit extra attacks with readied attacks, just not with opportunity attacks).
Hm.. as long as I can remember we have always permitted the extra attack feature gained from multiclassing...they are after all spending the rest of their lifetime leveling up another class and their overall lvl is significantly higher..I'm having a hard time understanding why it would be prohibited.
Well, it gets more attacks than a pure fighter which gets 3 at level 11 and 4 at level 20. You can get extra attack every 5 levels which with that house rule would be 3 attacks at level 10, 4 at level 15 and 5 at level 20.
Also, let's say a druid wildshapes into a creature with multi attack..the list of wildshape beasts is pretty weak and at higher levels is little more than an hp buffer. Taking 3 levels in fighter for extra attack wouldn't grant the wildshaped druid additional attacks? His bear form claws twice no matter what lvl... ew ..
So many things wrong here. People already explained how multiattack and extra attack fundamentally don't interact so I'll skip that. Moon druid's wildshape stays decent (as a melee option for a full caster anyway). Tripling your HP is a little more than a "buffer." "3 levels in fighter for extra attack" how, its level 5?
typo on the number.. but all that multiclassing requires 5 levels to get extra attack.. and few people ever see a character reach 15, let alone 20...the balance here additionally being these players are forgoing their pinnacle class abilities to achieve 1 more attack...and JUST an attack...
Extra Attack only applies when taking the attack action, and multiattack is a special action, not an attack action.
Somewhat peculiarly, extra attack does not work with ready, but it's totally valid to ready a multiattack (personally, I permit extra attacks with readied attacks, just not with opportunity attacks).
This got me looking through the rules because I have always played it as one attack per readied action. I had thought this restriction was part of the Ready Action rules but on closer inspection I realized it's not.
Rather the restriction is part of the Extra Attack class feature. Specifically the clause " . . . whenever you take the Attack action on your turn." So Extra Attack only works on your turn, similar to Reckless Attacks, and this is why a Readied action usually can't be used to make more than one attack per RAW.
All that said I don't see allowing a Readied Attack action to benefit from Extra Attack as something game breaking. On average a player is going to get fewer attacks than normal because they are spending an action and a reaction for the chance to do something they can typically do with just their action. It can significantly change the way an encounter plays out for a monster that relies on hit and run tactics, like a Phase Spider, though.
typo on the number.. but all that multiclassing requires 5 levels to get extra attack.. and few people ever see a character reach 15, let alone 20...the balance here additionally being these players are forgoing their pinnacle class abilities to achieve 1 more attack...and JUST an attack...
The best class features are usually level 1-5 and the most useful spells are gotten class level 5-9.
Martial characters have way more to gain than lose by multiclassing, and is even encouraged if extra attack is allowed to stack.
typo on the number.. but all that multiclassing requires 5 levels to get extra attack.. and few people ever see a character reach 15, let alone 20...the balance here additionally being these players are forgoing their pinnacle class abilities to achieve 1 more attack...and JUST an attack...
Just an FYI, allowing Extra Attack to stack let's a Barbarian/Fighter multi-class make three attacks with an action by level 10 instead of the normal 16. Similarly it lets a Barbarian/Paladin make 3 as an action by level 10 when they normally wouldn't be able to at all.
The issue is that the non-fighter martial classes have other ways of dealing damage to stay comparable to fighters. Particularly the Barbarian with Rage and Reckless Attacks gets a huge benefit out of getting to make more attacks.
Figuring out a proper balanced encounter might be a bit harder than normal, but encounter balance is always a tricky thing. Really I would be more worried if I had any straight Fighters in the party that might feel overshadowed by their multi-classing counterparts.
As another aside on this whole topic, you are also pushing off your higher CR for wildshape (assuming Moon druid) which means that you are taking something that you already complain about being weak in the mid levels, and extending that weakness for 5 levels, rather than working toward the biggest upgrades that you get to that feature: Elemental wild shapes, beast spells, and Archdruid. Albeit most druids don't see beast spells or archdruid, but taking several fighter levels makes them literally unobtainable. In fact, taking 5 levels of fighter might even make Elemental Wildshape practically unobtainable in many campaigns.
Also, some of the features fighters get or can choose won't work with any of the attacks that a beast can make. I think Protection might be the only reliable fighting style that you could choose. (Edit: turns out none of the PHB fighting styles work, but some of the Tasha's ones do -- even if unarmed fighting doesn't do much for natural weapons).
Also, some of the features fighters get or can choose won't work with any of the attacks that a beast can make. I think Protection might be the only reliable fighting style that you could choose.
Protection doesn't work, it requires you to be using a shield. The only things that work usefully in beast form are Blind Fighting and Superior Technique (from Tasha's).
Also, some of the features fighters get or can choose won't work with any of the attacks that a beast can make. I think Protection might be the only reliable fighting style that you could choose.
Protection doesn't work, it requires you to be using a shield. The only things that work usefully in beast form are Blind Fighting and Superior Technique (from Tasha's).
Unarmed Fighting Style should work too, especially if the Beast Form can grapple.
Druid's wild shape forms stay pretty competitive in combat, in my games, because I let them keep their racial/class ability ASIs in wildshape. (because that's what the ability actually say to do) Add a few +str in the mix and you got a pretty scary brawler in any semi-decent combat form.
As for extra attack and how it interacts with wildshape, well, if the form has multiple attacks say claw+bite when you use multiattack, when you get extra attack you could then either choose to take the default multiattack for a claw+bite or if you wanted to you could instead take the attack action and bite twice. or claw twice. Whichever attack is better.
I think I looked around a few years back and found that (assuming you cannot stack muliattack and extra attack), you are almost always better taking the multiattack from a creature that is 1 or 2 CR higher than taking fighter levels and using extra attack with a lower CR creature. I think the one place this starts to break down is for the giant snapping turtle because that turtle is one of the few >=CR 2 beasts that doesn't get multiattack, where as most other beasts do -- it's single attack packs a wallop.
But getting extra attack on that means level 14 (druid9/fighter 5), so you are 1 level away from elemental forms (which are quite tanky and provide some advantages over straight damage), and 2 (and a half) spell levels behind. You could probably more than make up the attack damage by good utilization of 6th and 7th level slots and elemental wild shape (whether that's straight damage or more likely, the damage avoidance/control that those more powerful spells/shapes can provide).
RAW, it depends on the actions involved.
Extra Attack says "Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn."
From wildshape it says "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."
The action options from a monster stat block are listed by name.
MM:
"When a monster takes its action, it can choose from the options in the Actions section of its stat block or use one of the actions available to all creatures, such as the Dash or Hide action, as described in the Player’s Handbook.
Melee and Ranged Attacks
The most common actions that a monster will take in combat are melee and ranged attacks. These can be spell attacks or weapon attacks, where the “weapon” might be a manufactured item or a natural weapon, such as a claw or tail spike. For more information on different kinds of attacks, see the Player’s Handbook."
So a monster CAN take the Attack action.
However, RAW, Multiattack is listed in the stat block as a separate action from the attack action. It is not the same as the Extra Attack feature for a character.
"Multiattack
A creature that can make multiple attacks on its turn has the Multiattack ability. A creature can’t use Multiattack when making an opportunity attack, which must be a single melee attack."
So any creature can take the Attack action. A wild shaped druid retains the features of any classes it has - so a wild shaped druid taking the Attack action could make an additional attack using the Extra Attack feature. However, Multiattack is listed in the stat block in the Actions section as a distinct Action. RAW, it isn't just the Attack action with more attacks - it is the Multiattack action.
Putting it all together, a wildshaped druid should be able to use Extra Attack when taking the Attack action and making one attack but it will be a DM call whether the Extra Attack would work with the Multiattack action or not. RAW it probably should not work with Multiattack.
Extra Attack only applies when taking the attack action, and multiattack is a special action, not an attack action.
Somewhat peculiarly, extra attack does not work with ready, but it's totally valid to ready a multiattack (personally, I permit extra attacks with readied attacks, just not with opportunity attacks).
Well, it gets more attacks than a pure fighter which gets 3 at level 11 and 4 at level 20. You can get extra attack every 5 levels which with that house rule would be 3 attacks at level 10, 4 at level 15 and 5 at level 20.
So many things wrong here. People already explained how multiattack and extra attack fundamentally don't interact so I'll skip that. Moon druid's wildshape stays decent (as a melee option for a full caster anyway). Tripling your HP is a little more than a "buffer." "3 levels in fighter for extra attack" how, its level 5?
typo on the number.. but all that multiclassing requires 5 levels to get extra attack.. and few people ever see a character reach 15, let alone 20...the balance here additionally being these players are forgoing their pinnacle class abilities to achieve 1 more attack...and JUST an attack...
This got me looking through the rules because I have always played it as one attack per readied action. I had thought this restriction was part of the Ready Action rules but on closer inspection I realized it's not.
Rather the restriction is part of the Extra Attack class feature. Specifically the clause " . . . whenever you take the Attack action on your turn." So Extra Attack only works on your turn, similar to Reckless Attacks, and this is why a Readied action usually can't be used to make more than one attack per RAW.
All that said I don't see allowing a Readied Attack action to benefit from Extra Attack as something game breaking. On average a player is going to get fewer attacks than normal because they are spending an action and a reaction for the chance to do something they can typically do with just their action. It can significantly change the way an encounter plays out for a monster that relies on hit and run tactics, like a Phase Spider, though.
The best class features are usually level 1-5 and the most useful spells are gotten class level 5-9.
Martial characters have way more to gain than lose by multiclassing, and is even encouraged if extra attack is allowed to stack.
Just an FYI, allowing Extra Attack to stack let's a Barbarian/Fighter multi-class make three attacks with an action by level 10 instead of the normal 16. Similarly it lets a Barbarian/Paladin make 3 as an action by level 10 when they normally wouldn't be able to at all.
The issue is that the non-fighter martial classes have other ways of dealing damage to stay comparable to fighters. Particularly the Barbarian with Rage and Reckless Attacks gets a huge benefit out of getting to make more attacks.
Figuring out a proper balanced encounter might be a bit harder than normal, but encounter balance is always a tricky thing. Really I would be more worried if I had any straight Fighters in the party that might feel overshadowed by their multi-classing counterparts.
As another aside on this whole topic, you are also pushing off your higher CR for wildshape (assuming Moon druid) which means that you are taking something that you already complain about being weak in the mid levels, and extending that weakness for 5 levels, rather than working toward the biggest upgrades that you get to that feature: Elemental wild shapes, beast spells, and Archdruid. Albeit most druids don't see beast spells or archdruid, but taking several fighter levels makes them literally unobtainable. In fact, taking 5 levels of fighter might even make Elemental Wildshape practically unobtainable in many campaigns.
Also, some of the features fighters get or can choose won't work with any of the attacks that a beast can make. I think
Protectionmight be the only reliable fighting style that you could choose. (Edit: turns out none of the PHB fighting styles work, but some of the Tasha's ones do -- even if unarmed fighting doesn't do much for natural weapons).Protection doesn't work, it requires you to be using a shield. The only things that work usefully in beast form are Blind Fighting and Superior Technique (from Tasha's).
Unarmed Fighting Style should work too, especially if the Beast Form can grapple.
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Druid's wild shape forms stay pretty competitive in combat, in my games, because I let them keep their racial/class ability ASIs in wildshape. (because that's what the ability actually say to do) Add a few +str in the mix and you got a pretty scary brawler in any semi-decent combat form.
As for extra attack and how it interacts with wildshape, well, if the form has multiple attacks say claw+bite when you use multiattack, when you get extra attack you could then either choose to take the default multiattack for a claw+bite or if you wanted to you could instead take the attack action and bite twice. or claw twice. Whichever attack is better.
I got quotes!
It does but is pretty marginal, since beast forms tend to do more than 1d8+str damage anyway.
I think I looked around a few years back and found that (assuming you cannot stack muliattack and extra attack), you are almost always better taking the multiattack from a creature that is 1 or 2 CR higher than taking fighter levels and using extra attack with a lower CR creature. I think the one place this starts to break down is for the giant snapping turtle because that turtle is one of the few >=CR 2 beasts that doesn't get multiattack, where as most other beasts do -- it's single attack packs a wallop.
But getting extra attack on that means level 14 (druid9/fighter 5), so you are 1 level away from elemental forms (which are quite tanky and provide some advantages over straight damage), and 2 (and a half) spell levels behind. You could probably more than make up the attack damage by good utilization of 6th and 7th level slots and elemental wild shape (whether that's straight damage or more likely, the damage avoidance/control that those more powerful spells/shapes can provide).
True, but an extra d4 is better than nothing.
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