I am not going to reply to this, but just to let everyone know, hand crossbows have the 'light' property. The light property allows people to use two-weapon fighting without the dual wielder feat. Two weapon fighting requires melee weapons.
So having light as a property is really misleading and gives no benefits whatsoever to hand crossbows.
Just letting people know.
Edit: Another weird thing is, you can hold a single hand crossbow with the crossbow expert feat, and it's exactly the same as dual wielding. You get the attacks from the attack action, and you get the bonus action attack. It's even better than dual wielding, because you even get to add your ability score modifier to the bonus action attack.
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Find it amusing that the "light crossbow" despite its name does not have the "light" property, but the hand crossbow does.
Sadly for my visions of shooting a hand crossbow with each hand before closing to melee, the hand crossbow is not a melee weapon and there for is not eligible for two-weapon fighting. I wonder if we could get the Sage to make an exception?
Find it amusing that the "light crossbow" despite its name does not have the "light" property, but the hand crossbow does.
Sadly for my visions of shooting a hand crossbow with each hand before closing to melee, the hand crossbow is not a melee weapon and there for is not eligible for two-weapon fighting. I wonder if we could get the Sage to make an exception?
The reason why you can't do that goes beyond them not being melee: you need a free hand to load ammunition into a weapon with the ammunition property. The Crossbow Expert Feat lets you attack with a hand crossbow as a bonus action when you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, which, at first glance, many people thought allowed the double-hand crossbow trick, but it doesn't work because of the ammunition issue.
A GM can use the tags for other things. For example, allowing DEX\Stealth rolls at advantage to conceal weapons under clothing when the weapons are light.
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.
----
They are neither melee nor thrown. However, I would let a player fire one shot from each hand once for 'rule of cool' purposes because it's visually dynamic.
After reading both the errata and the Sage Advice, I am led to the conclusion that the rules for hand crossbows and the crossbow expert feat have become unintentionally contradictory. The requirements of the ammunition quality directly conflict with the third ability given by the crossbow expert feat. The change to the ammunition quality also presents other problems for hand crossbow use.
The ammunition quality states that you must have a free hand to load a one-handed weapon having the ammunition quality. Loading the weapon is part of the attack. Sage Advice tells us that a crossbow expert can use a hand crossbow for an Attack action, and then, provided he has a free hand to reload, use the same hand crossbow to perform an attack as a bonus action.
The errata changed the ammunition quality to require a free hand to load one-handed weapons with the ammunition quality. The errata further changed the wording of crossbow expert. Before the errata the rule read "attack with a loaded hand crossbow you are holding." The word loaded was removed in the errata. The intent I am sure was to allow a crossbow expert with a hand crossbow to use it to make a bonus attack with it each round after making an Attack with a weapon held in the other hand, rather than just on the first round.
However, because loading the ammunition is considered part of the attack and you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon, the only way you can attack with a hand crossbow is if it is the only thing you are holding in either hand. You cannot attack with a hand crossbow if you are carrying a torch, using a shield, or attacking with a one-handed melee weapon as you will not then have a free hand to perform the requisite loading. The change to the ammunition quality requiring a free hand to carry out the loading which is part of the attack precludes making a bonus attack with a hand crossbow if the character makes an attack with a one-handed weapon (other than a hand crossbow being the only thing being held in either hand) in the same round.
The free hand for loading is not an issue with two-handed missile weapons as the requirement for a free hand specifically applies only to one-handed missile weapons.
It should be mentioned that there are niche/thematic uses here. I don't see any rules contradiction, just a conflict between the rules and what we imagine two weapon fighting with hand crossbows should look like. In other words, it's an issue with our expectations and not a rules issue.
Action: Draw dagger, throw dagger. Bonus action: load hand crossbow, fire hand crossbow. This is straight up two weapon fighting. First attack is with a light weapon and empties the hand to load the crossbow. It's mechanically suboptimal if you have the x sharpshooter feat, but the crossbow expert feat isn't necessary for this.
Object interaction: pick up shortsword. Action: attack with shortsword. "Free" action: drop shortsword. Bonus action: load hand crossbow, fire hand crossbow. This is very similar to the first example. Repetition of this sequence every round encourages many DMs to just handwave the freehand requirement. Either that or it encourages your DM to take your shortsword away.
What happens if you keep your hand crossbows "cocked and locked"? Therefore have the ability to duel wield hand crossbows for first round then either ditch one to reload the other or ditch both to use melee weapons? I could see that as a good opener to a fight as you move into melee range!
What happens if you keep your hand crossbows "cocked and locked"? Therefore have the ability to duel wield hand crossbows for first round then either ditch one to reload the other or ditch both to use melee weapons? I could see that as a good opener to a fight as you move into melee range!
If you have two hand crossbows loaded, I would absolutely let you pop them both off in my game, assuming you met all the requirements. But next round, you'd have to use your free object interaction to stow one and then have a hand available to load the remaining crossbow as part of your attack.
Carry them cocked and locked was my thought. Two shots on the first round then drop one or both of them.
The other possible solution I thought of relies on the specific beating the general. If we take the ammunition quality requiring a free hand to load as part of every attack as being the general rule and crossbow master allowing a bonus action attack with a hand crossbow after an Attack action with a light weapon, then specific beats general and in this particular case you do not need a free hand to load your hand crossbow.
The specific beating the general in this way would require a revision of the Sage Advice on hand crossbows, which specifically calls out the need to have a free hand to load with in order to take multiple shots with a hand crossbow. In fact it states the need for a free hand to load with no less than three times, and emphasizes that with the ammunition property this loading is part of every shot.
Since the Sage Advice does say you can use crossbow master to shoot the same hand crossbow twice in the same round (if you have that free hand to load), and since drawing a melee weapon to attack can be done as part of the attack, shooting two hand crossbows on the first round, dropping one and drawing your sword to attack on the second round is mechanically no different. Either way you are getting two hand crossbow shots on the first round, then have your sword ready to attack with on the second round.
If crossbow master does not beat ammunition and we follow the Sage Advice, then the only way to benefit from crossbow master with a hand crossbow is for the hand crossbow to be the only thing in your hands.
Crossbow expert and Extra Attack: It means Crossbow Expert makes it possible to fire a hand crossbow more than once with a feature like Extra Attack, provided that you have enough ammunition and you have a hand free to load it for each shot.
Firing again as a Bonus Action: A hand crossbow is a one-handed weapon, so it can, indeed, be used for both attacks, assuming you have a hand free to load the hand crossbow between the two attacks.
The bolded bit is the sticking point. The Sage Advice prior to this states that loading a bolt is part of the attack, is required by the ammunition quality, and requires a free hand.
The net effect is that with the ammunition quality hand crossbows become a de facto two-handed weapon. Two-handed missile weapons with the ammunition quality assume the loading as part of the attack without needing a "free hand", “... (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon).”
A simpler wording of the crossbow expert feat if it did not beat ammunition would be "If you make an Attack action with a hand crossbow, and have nothing in your other hand, you can use a bonus action to make another attack." This would combine with the Extra Attack feature to allow up to three shots per round for a character who had both extra attack and crossbow master.
From the way crossbow master is worded I still think the intent of the rule is that a crossbow master can have a hand crossbow in one hand and a short sword in the other and attack with both each round. Rule of Cool would support this.
The addition of the free hand requirement to ammunition serves to make the crossbow expert feat better, as it allows the feat to make an exception to the usual rule.
Methinks "Rule of Cool" is going to win in this. Allow "loaded hand crossbows" to be fired from both hands on round one, then have it in the off-hand during battles. As a nod to the requirements, perhaps require the rogue (in this campaign) to have a crafted gauntlet that allows her to cock the hand crossbow while holding something in the hand.
The net effect is that with the ammunition quality hand crossbows become a de facto two-handed weapon. Two
That's my take on this as well.
If I'd written the game, I would have made crossbow loading and crossbow firing two separate actions.
In my games I allow someone with a shield to use their shield arm to load a hand crossbow held in the other hand. Why? Because I've done it for real (in the late 80s - this hand crossbow discussion is not new).
Light Hand Crossbows are one of those sexy things that so many people just fall in love with the look and idea. Dual wielding them is basically fantasizing about having a 3-some with Malin Akerman and Natalie Portman. Not going to happen in real life.
But this is a fantasy game. I see no reason not to indulge a bit. As a DM I would require magical crossbows with appropriate features, but go enjoy.
I'm currently playing a war cleric variant human in rime of the frostmaiden, with the light crossbow as my starting weapon.
What I want to work towards is being able to equip a shield and hand crossbow at the same time, allowing for multiple shots of the hand crossbow each turn, then adding divine favor and divine strike for additional damage processing.
I am not going to reply to this, but just to let everyone know, hand crossbows have the 'light' property. The light property allows people to use two-weapon fighting without the dual wielder feat. Two weapon fighting requires melee weapons.
So having light as a property is really misleading and gives no benefits whatsoever to hand crossbows.
Just letting people know.
Edit: Another weird thing is, you can hold a single hand crossbow with the crossbow expert feat, and it's exactly the same as dual wielding. You get the attacks from the attack action, and you get the bonus action attack. It's even better than dual wielding, because you even get to add your ability score modifier to the bonus action attack.
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It may not be directly used with the base rules, but it can be referenced in things like the firearm specialist feat.
Find it amusing that the "light crossbow" despite its name does not have the "light" property, but the hand crossbow does.
Sadly for my visions of shooting a hand crossbow with each hand before closing to melee, the hand crossbow is not a melee weapon and there for is not eligible for two-weapon fighting. I wonder if we could get the Sage to make an exception?
The reason why you can't do that goes beyond them not being melee: you need a free hand to load ammunition into a weapon with the ammunition property. The Crossbow Expert Feat lets you attack with a hand crossbow as a bonus action when you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, which, at first glance, many people thought allowed the double-hand crossbow trick, but it doesn't work because of the ammunition issue.
A GM can use the tags for other things. For example, allowing DEX\Stealth rolls at advantage to conceal weapons under clothing when the weapons are light.
Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.
----
They are neither melee nor thrown. However, I would let a player fire one shot from each hand once for 'rule of cool' purposes because it's visually dynamic.
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The "light" quality does not in and of itself confer any mechanical benefit to hand crossbow users.
After reading both the errata and the Sage Advice, I am led to the conclusion that the rules for hand crossbows and the crossbow expert feat have become unintentionally contradictory. The requirements of the ammunition quality directly conflict with the third ability given by the crossbow expert feat. The change to the ammunition quality also presents other problems for hand crossbow use.
The ammunition quality states that you must have a free hand to load a one-handed weapon having the ammunition quality. Loading the weapon is part of the attack. Sage Advice tells us that a crossbow expert can use a hand crossbow for an Attack action, and then, provided he has a free hand to reload, use the same hand crossbow to perform an attack as a bonus action.
The errata changed the ammunition quality to require a free hand to load one-handed weapons with the ammunition quality. The errata further changed the wording of crossbow expert. Before the errata the rule read "attack with a loaded hand crossbow you are holding." The word loaded was removed in the errata. The intent I am sure was to allow a crossbow expert with a hand crossbow to use it to make a bonus attack with it each round after making an Attack with a weapon held in the other hand, rather than just on the first round.
However, because loading the ammunition is considered part of the attack and you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon, the only way you can attack with a hand crossbow is if it is the only thing you are holding in either hand. You cannot attack with a hand crossbow if you are carrying a torch, using a shield, or attacking with a one-handed melee weapon as you will not then have a free hand to perform the requisite loading. The change to the ammunition quality requiring a free hand to carry out the loading which is part of the attack precludes making a bonus attack with a hand crossbow if the character makes an attack with a one-handed weapon (other than a hand crossbow being the only thing being held in either hand) in the same round.
The free hand for loading is not an issue with two-handed missile weapons as the requirement for a free hand specifically applies only to one-handed missile weapons.
How are we to square the circle?
It should be mentioned that there are niche/thematic uses here. I don't see any rules contradiction, just a conflict between the rules and what we imagine two weapon fighting with hand crossbows should look like. In other words, it's an issue with our expectations and not a rules issue.
Action: Draw dagger, throw dagger. Bonus action: load hand crossbow, fire hand crossbow. This is straight up two weapon fighting. First attack is with a light weapon and empties the hand to load the crossbow. It's mechanically suboptimal if you have the x sharpshooter feat, but the crossbow expert feat isn't necessary for this.
Object interaction: pick up shortsword. Action: attack with shortsword. "Free" action: drop shortsword. Bonus action: load hand crossbow, fire hand crossbow. This is very similar to the first example. Repetition of this sequence every round encourages many DMs to just handwave the freehand requirement. Either that or it encourages your DM to take your shortsword away.
Edit: Grammer
What happens if you keep your hand crossbows "cocked and locked"? Therefore have the ability to duel wield hand crossbows for first round then either ditch one to reload the other or ditch both to use melee weapons? I could see that as a good opener to a fight as you move into melee range!
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If you have two hand crossbows loaded, I would absolutely let you pop them both off in my game, assuming you met all the requirements. But next round, you'd have to use your free object interaction to stow one and then have a hand available to load the remaining crossbow as part of your attack.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Carry them cocked and locked was my thought. Two shots on the first round then drop one or both of them.
The other possible solution I thought of relies on the specific beating the general. If we take the ammunition quality requiring a free hand to load as part of every attack as being the general rule and crossbow master allowing a bonus action attack with a hand crossbow after an Attack action with a light weapon, then specific beats general and in this particular case you do not need a free hand to load your hand crossbow.
The specific beating the general in this way would require a revision of the Sage Advice on hand crossbows, which specifically calls out the need to have a free hand to load with in order to take multiple shots with a hand crossbow. In fact it states the need for a free hand to load with no less than three times, and emphasizes that with the ammunition property this loading is part of every shot.
Since the Sage Advice does say you can use crossbow master to shoot the same hand crossbow twice in the same round (if you have that free hand to load), and since drawing a melee weapon to attack can be done as part of the attack, shooting two hand crossbows on the first round, dropping one and drawing your sword to attack on the second round is mechanically no different. Either way you are getting two hand crossbow shots on the first round, then have your sword ready to attack with on the second round.
If crossbow master does not beat ammunition and we follow the Sage Advice, then the only way to benefit from crossbow master with a hand crossbow is for the hand crossbow to be the only thing in your hands.
The bolded bit is the sticking point. The Sage Advice prior to this states that loading a bolt is part of the attack, is required by the ammunition quality, and requires a free hand.
The net effect is that with the ammunition quality hand crossbows become a de facto two-handed weapon. Two-handed missile weapons with the ammunition quality assume the loading as part of the attack without needing a "free hand", “... (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon).”
A simpler wording of the crossbow expert feat if it did not beat ammunition would be "If you make an Attack action with a hand crossbow, and have nothing in your other hand, you can use a bonus action to make another attack." This would combine with the Extra Attack feature to allow up to three shots per round for a character who had both extra attack and crossbow master.
From the way crossbow master is worded I still think the intent of the rule is that a crossbow master can have a hand crossbow in one hand and a short sword in the other and attack with both each round. Rule of Cool would support this.
The addition of the free hand requirement to ammunition serves to make the crossbow expert feat better, as it allows the feat to make an exception to the usual rule.
Methinks "Rule of Cool" is going to win in this. Allow "loaded hand crossbows" to be fired from both hands on round one, then have it in the off-hand during battles. As a nod to the requirements, perhaps require the rogue (in this campaign) to have a crafted gauntlet that allows her to cock the hand crossbow while holding something in the hand.
That's my take on this as well.
If I'd written the game, I would have made crossbow loading and crossbow firing two separate actions.
In my games I allow someone with a shield to use their shield arm to load a hand crossbow held in the other hand. Why? Because I've done it for real (in the late 80s - this hand crossbow discussion is not new).
Now the hand crossbow being light matters.
It works with the Artificer Repeating Shot infusion now.
Light Hand Crossbows are one of those sexy things that so many people just fall in love with the look and idea. Dual wielding them is basically fantasizing about having a 3-some with Malin Akerman and Natalie Portman. Not going to happen in real life.
But this is a fantasy game. I see no reason not to indulge a bit. As a DM I would require magical crossbows with appropriate features, but go enjoy.
So here's my question:
I'm currently playing a war cleric variant human in rime of the frostmaiden, with the light crossbow as my starting weapon.
What I want to work towards is being able to equip a shield and hand crossbow at the same time, allowing for multiple shots of the hand crossbow each turn, then adding divine favor and divine strike for additional damage processing.
Will this work, or not?
The short answer is no. The long answer is more complicated, but still not--at least not in the way you are probably going to be satisfied with.
"Not all those who wander are lost"