Either way, the zombie is most probably under the Druid's control for the duration of the Fungal Infestation. Even if a DM ruled that the FoD gave control of the zombie, I would still rule that the Druid got the ability to issue one mental command to the zombie once per turn as per Fungal Infestation. After all the zombie is infected with the spores, they did cause it to animate early from FoD's perspective, and they do give the Druid that ability.
Since as it was pointed out "most powerful spell" applies to two iterations of the same spell on the same target, not to two different spells.
I suppose it is possible that the zombie comes under control of the FoD caster at the start of the FoD casters next turn, but the Druid still gets to give it one mental command per turn, so both spells have their normal effect there. Whose command the zombie acts on depending maybe on the positions of the two casters in initiative, the zombie's turn coming immediately after the Druid according to Fungal Infestation, so if the Druid has initiative first the zombie might have already taken its turn by the time the other caster gets to give it a command. At the end of the Fungal Infestation the zombie might well die, and since it was already animated as a zombie it fulfilled that part of FoD and so would not rise again. It would really suck to have cast FoD then. You had control of a zombie that used its action every turn before you could give it a command and then it died. That is just mean. Especially since Fungal Infestation doesn't use a spell slot and FoD does, a 7th level slot to boot. Want to see a necromancer cry? They have to be 13th level before they get their first 7th level spell slot, 20th to get the second. A Druid only has to be 6th level to use Fungal Infestation. Even Dispell Magic would require a DC 17 spell casting check to prevent the zombie from rising for the necromancer unless it was cast with a 7th level or higher spell slot. Way to really mess with one of the most powerful necromancy spells out there, and at lower level up to your Wisdom modifier times between long rests.
All this assuming that the FoD actually killed the target, which while very likely is not certain with a high level character. Our Druid will be within range of the poor target for Halo of Spores in any case if he is going to use Fungal Infestation to make it a zombie, so he will have an extra chance to do damage to a target softened up by FoD.
Hopefully making a zombie wasn't the necromancer's purpose in casting FoD, Animate Dead is only a third level spell after all, which requires only a 5th level caster. The only real benefit to a Finger of Death zombie is it lasts longer. Forever, or at least until destroyed for FoF, 24 hours for Animated Dead, one hour for Fungal Infestation. But if it is within ten feet of you when it dies at the end of Fungal Infestation you can just raise it back up again.
This is such a narrow case occurrence I wonder if it would ever come up in actual play? But I think after reading all the material a couple of times now and really thinking about how it all would apply I'm going to have to go with BoboBoombang and say "sucks to be you" to the necromancer. And thank you to DxJxC for pointing me to the official version.
Sorry DMSimmons, but I think you lose the zombie. best case necromancer acts before Druid in initiative and can squeeze a command to the zombie in there. But at the end of the 24 hour duration of Fungal Infestation I think that zombie is gonna die and stay dead.
I have enjoyed this little thought experiment. Thank you guys for making me dig into it, defend my points and position and consider your points and position. I even changed my mind somewhat. yes, someone on the internet just admitted he was wrong!
Having read the Ravnica text. My ruling is still that the Finger of Death creates a zombie when Fungal Infestation expires. The Finger of Death magic is already affecting the corpse, and nothing in the description of either spell says that it stops just because another spell is affecting the body in-between it dying and it rising.
Finger of Death second effect is not "looking" for anything. It is a process already taking place in the corpse. It is just hijacked by the faster acting spores. So Druid gets temporary control of the zombie. If A then B. A humanoid killed by the spell rises as a zombie. The spell has a duration of instantaneous, it is not two steps of duration separated by a pause, it is one duration of instantaneous with two effects that are separated in time. The Fungal Infestation effect is manifesting in that time between the manifestation of the two Finger of Death effects, but nothing in either spell says it cancels the effect.
Nothing in either spell needs to say the spell stops effecting the corpse, because the spell only affects the corpse at 2 specific times as stated by the effect of the spell. "Instantaneous", meaning "when cast." And "at the start of your next turn" meaning "at the start of your next turn."
If you look at finger of death as a process that is already taking place, then spore infestation has interrupted that process, causing the second effect to not happen. It doesn't need to say cancels the effect, because it by the nature of the rules prevents the effect.
See I focus on the verbs, not the nouns. Finger of Death: Killed, rises. Fungal Infestation: Dies, animate. For me the only point of possible confusion is that Fungal Infestation says "dies" again when the spell duration expires. So it is possible to consider that ultimately it was not Finger of Death that killed it, so no zombie from FoD. But that would have to mean that the Fungal Infestation "zombie" is actually alive for the duration of that spell. If the Fungal Infestation zombie is dead for the duration of that spell then it was killed by FoD and by the terms of that spell will rise as a zombie under the control of that caster.
Animate: V: To bring to life, to move or stir to action Adj: alive or having life, so maybe the "zombie" created by Fungal Infestation is not dead, there for the creature was not ultimately killed by FoD, so it is not eligible to rise as a zombie from that spell. It cannot be undead in that case, even if it uses the zombie stat block. Otherwise it was killed by FoD and must there for rise as a zombie per that spell. It is not a question of there being a humanoid. It is a question of whether there is a dead or a living creature. If the creature animated by Fungal Infestation is a zombie, that is undead then it is subject to turning by a Cleric. The Monster Manual does refer to some undead, including both zombies and vampires as "walking corpses" and the entry on zombie states that the magic that creates a zombie can take some time to run its course. So we are back to it being an unresolved question.
Focusing on only the verbs is a terrible way to make rulings. Fungal Infestation says "dies" when it ends because an undead is not dead. And when the undead dies again it is no longer a humanoid that died to finger of death. So there isn't a "possible to consider," it's "that's what happened." And again, zombies are not dead.
The first half of your second paragraph is a confused mess. "Zombies are alive, which means it wasn't killed, so it can't be undead, otherwise it was killed, and therefore becomes a zombie"??? Back on track, regardless of what it is a matter of, a living(undead) zombie is not a dead humanoid, period. And it can be turned. And monster descriptions are not rules. So it is not unresolved, I resolved it pretty well back on comment 10.
[Edit]I am not commenting on your latest post. It is too long, mostly wrong (except where it contradicts itself), and I covered some of it in this post anyway.
Sage Advice: Whenever you wonder whether a spell’s effects can be dispelled or suspended, you need to answer one question:is the spell’s duration instantaneous? If the answer is yes, there is nothing to dispel or suspend.Here’s why: the effects of an instantaneous spell are brought into being by magic, but the effects aren’t sustained by magic (see PH, 203). The magic flares for a split second and then vanishes. For example, the instantaneous spell animate dead harnesses magical energy to turn a corpse or a pile of bones into an undead creature. That necromantic magic is present for an instant and is then gone. The resulting undead now exists without the magic’s help. Casting dispel magic on the creature can’t end its mockery of life, and the undead can wander into an antimagic field with no adverse effect.
Finger of Death has a duration of instantaneous. Its effects will not be suspended by another spell, so it should have its full effect. According to Sage Advice an "instantaneous" spell flares magic only for a split second. The magic for the zombie to rise has already taken place at the instant of casting. It does not occur again when the zombie rises.
Looks like we could have saved two pages of discussion by just checking Sage Advice for the official rules interpretation on instantaneous duration spells.
Sage Advice: Whenever you wonder whether a spell’s effects can be dispelled or suspended, you need to answer one question:is the spell’s duration instantaneous? If the answer is yes, there is nothing to dispel or suspend.Here’s why: the effects of an instantaneous spell are brought into being by magic, but the effects aren’t sustained by magic (see PH, 203). The magic flares for a split second and then vanishes. For example, the instantaneous spell animate dead harnesses magical energy to turn a corpse or a pile of bones into an undead creature. That necromantic magic is present for an instant and is then gone. The resulting undead now exists without the magic’s help. Casting dispel magic on the creature can’t end its mockery of life, and the undead can wander into an antimagic field with no adverse effect.
Finger of Death has a duration of instantaneous. Its effects will not be suspended by another spell, so it should have its full effect. According to Sage Advice an "instantaneous" spell flares magic only for a split second. The magic for the zombie to rise has already taken place at the instant of casting. It does not occur again when the zombie rises.
This isn't really relevant to the argument. The spell isn't being suspended or dispelled. The effect simply failed, like casting a spell on an invalid target, because that is essentially what happened.
When the spell was cast it had a valid target. So "it was cast on on an invalid target" is precisely what did not essentially happen. The spell was, in point of fact, cast on a valid target. It is a spell with a duration of instantaneous. Per Sage Advice the effects of an instantaneous spell are brought into being by magic, but the effects aren't sustained by magic. The magic flares for a split second and then vanishes.
The problem arrises from two effects that do two different things, and the question of whether or not you can interrupt the effects of a spell with a duration f instantaneous after that spell has been cast and taken effect. The FoD killed the subject, there for the spell took effect. The spell, which already took effect, also causes the corpse to rise as a zombie on a subsequent turn. This is all part of the instantaneous duration effect of Finger of Death. The problem is that Fungal Infestation has a different, non-spell effect which is triggered by, but conflicts with, the effect of Finger of Death.
The rule of specific trumping general does not apply as these are both specific rules, one a spell the other a feature. The feature is triggered by part of the effect of the spell, but nothing says it cancels the other part of the spell effect. The second part of the spell effect has already been triggered at the instant of spell casting by the rule for instantaneous duration spells.
The phrase in Finger of Death "rises at the start of your next turn" could validly be read as "stands up at the start of your next turn", thus saying nothing about when the corpse becomes a zombie, only when it rises to its feet and can take actions.
The designers screwed up and produced a conflict in the rules. It would not be the first time Jeremy Crawford has contradicted himself. Nor would it be the first time rules were in conflict.
Exactly to the point at hand, would you allow a Dispell Magic cast on the corpse of humanoid slain by the damage from a Finger of Death spell to prevent that corpse from rising as a zombie under the control of the FoD caster? Why or why not?
Assume that the Dispell Magic is cast on a character turn occurring after the FoD is cast, but before the next turn of the FoD caster.
This argument has gone on way too long and while specifics have changed, the bottom line has stayed the same. I'm only going to say this once more, then I'm done with this subject.
In order to raise the dead target at the beginning of your turn after you kill it, the target has to be dead at the beginning of your turn after you killed it. Simple.
And no, zombies are not dead. And no, a minute later is not the turn after you killed it. And no, you can't take control of the zombie the druid made. None of that is what the effect says.
That's it. Event = subject + instance. If the time and/or target are do not meet the conditions of the event, the event doesn't happen. The event CAN NOT happen.
Exactly to the point at hand, would you allow a Dispell Magic cast on the corpse of humanoid slain by the damage from a Finger of Death spell to prevent that corpse from rising as a zombie under the control of the FoD caster? Why or why not?
Assume that the Dispell Magic is cast on a character turn occurring after the FoD is cast, but before the next turn of the FoD caster.
No, because there is not an ongoing effect on the target. I would rule this as a second effect trigger not an ongoing one. I can see other DMs ruling differently, and that is up to them.
Instantaneous spell duration. Read the rules. Sage Advice is official rules. The full effect of Finger of Death was locked in the instant the spell took effect. To use your phrasing the Fungal Infestation did not have a valid target. QED
The event is the casting and taking effect of Finger of Death, and that occurs entirely in the split second that the spell is cast. the magic is not, and does not need to be sustained from the instant the spell first takes effect until the zombie rises.
If you want to argue against that take it up with Jeremy Crawford, since he is the one who gave that official ruling on what instantaneous duration means for spells.
A Necromancer casts Finger of Death on a humanoid, which dies, and will rise as a zombie under the permanent control of the Necromancer on their next turn. Before their next turn, though, another Wizard casts Disintegrate on the humanoid's corpse. Being a "Large or smaller nonmagical object", the corpse is immediately disintegrated. The Necromancer's next turn comes up... is there a zombie under their permanent control now? Obviously not, because the corpse that would've risen was disintegrated. I submit that, similarly, if a corpse were animated by a Circle of Spores Druid before the Necromancer's next turn (after casting Finger of Death), there is now no longer any corpse to rise (there is, though a zombie under the temporary control of the Druid, but Finger of Death makes no mention of "other zombies" or what happens to them), and therefore no zombie under the permanent control of the Necromancer.
Having said that, I do concede that consider how Finger of Death is particularly unimpressive at the level it's taken, and how taxing it is on a Wizard's resources, having a significantly lower leveled ability disrupt its use might be considered inappropriate, and would happily accept any DM's ruling that the zombie animated by the Druid re-rises as a zombie under the permanent control of the Wizard who initially killed the humanoid with Finger of Death when it dies, whether "naturally", or when the 1 hour duration is up. I would still consider that a house rule, and not a "proper" interpretation of the rules.
I will gladly say that a creature killed by Finger of Death then hit by a Disintegrate spell before it rises as a zombie will disintegrate. That does not seem to contradict the instantaneous duration and instant effect of the Finger of Death spell. After it rises it would have to save against the spell. The strictest possible interpretation would be that the body (in the process of rising as a zombie) would have to make a Dexterity save. Since a zombie is Dex 6, and maximum 33 hit points, with a failed save doing a minimum of 50 hit points, I don't really rate its chances. A Dispell Magic would not prevent the rising as the spell has already taken effect.
It is the Finger of Death spell taking full effect immediately on casting that still presents the problem with Fungal Infestation. A spell and a class feature are trying to cause the same effect in the same target. After reading the Sage Advice I believe that the Finger of Death should have precedence. At most the Druid might have control until the duration of that effect is up.
If Finger of Death had a casting time longer than one action, or a duration other than instantaneous there would not be a rule conflict.
Are there any class features that can interrupt an instantaneous spell part way through it taking effect? Or any spells that can do that? Counterspell interrupts the casting before it is complete so the spell fails. I am asking about interrupting an instantaneous spell after it has been successfully cast.
As soon as Jeremy Crawford posts to errata or Sage Advice that this is what happens in this case as an exception to the rule I will accept it. But to me it seems to violate the rule as it currently stands.
A humanoid killed by this spell rises at the start of your next turn as a zombie that is permanently under your command, following your verbal orders to the best of its ability.
Fungal Infestation
At 6th level, your spores gain the ability to infest a humanoid corpse and animate it. If you slay a humanoid with your Halo of Spores damage, the creature rises as a zombie at the end of your turn. It has 1 hit point.
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Finger of death is instantaneous. This means that the humanoid that is killed is instantly converted into a zombie. The fact that it takes until your next turn for it to get its wits together and stand up is irrelevant. It just means that it can't be told to do anything until the start of your next turn.The magic is done when the spell completes since its duration is instantaneous.
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Both finger of death and fungal infestation REQUIRE that they kill/slay the humanoid in order for the zombie to be created. Only one of these effects can actually kill the humanoid.
Either Halo of spores hits an undead creature AFTER the zombie is created. Or Finger of death doesn't have a valid target since a corpse created by the Halo of Spores is not a creature (or if Fungal Infestation immediately creates the zombie then it is an undead creature and not a humanoid and so can't rise as a zombie due to finger of death anyway).
D&D doesn't have simultaneous resolution of magical effects for a reason ... each of these effects/spells goes in order and depending on which went first the results of the interaction seem pretty clear. The key item to keep in mind is that Finger of Death is instantaneous. This means that the zombie is created as soon as the spell completes. It is no longer a humanoid corpse ... however, even if it WAS a humanoid corpse, it would not have been killed by Halo of Spores and so Fungal Infestation would not apply since it only applies to humanoids killed by the Halo of Spores feature.
A humanoid killed by this spell rises at the start of your next turn as a zombie that is permanently under your command, following your verbal orders to the best of its ability.
<Snip>
Finger of death is instantaneous. This means that the humanoid that is killed is instantly converted into a zombie. The fact that it takes until your next turn for it to get its wits together and stand up is irrelevant. It just means that it can't be told to do anything until the start of your next turn.The magic is done when the spell completes since its duration is instantaneous.
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<Snip>
D&D doesn't have simultaneous resolution of magical effects for a reason ... each of these effects/spells goes in order and depending on which went first the results of the interaction seem pretty clear. The key item to keep in mind is that Finger of Death is instantaneous. This means that the zombie is created as soon as the spell completes. It is no longer a humanoid corpse ... however, even if it WAS a humanoid corpse,<Snip>
Snipping the bits which don't apply because you are using the UA rules, instead of the published official rules from Ravnica. The rest is exactly my argument. It doesn't really matter what Fungal Infestation does, unless it can interrupt an instantaneous spell. Which as far as I know nothing in D&D can do.
Can you stop a Fireball once cast from reaching its target? Say I have a Fighter with a really high dexterity standing alongside the path between the caster and the target. Can I though out my shield and block that streaking Fireball, so it doesn't reach the target and doesn't explode? Or throw a bucket of water on the streaking spark and put out the Fireball that way? After the spell has been cast, but while the streak of fire is streaking by?
Why not? It is the same thing. Blocking part of the effect of an instantaneous duration spell after it has been successfully cast.
Finger of Death does not instantaneously turn the killed target's corpse into a zombie. That happens at the start of the caster's next turn. The spell does not read "the target humanoid's corpse is turned into a zombie, which you can control starting at the beginning of your next turn". It reads "a humanoid killed by this spell rises at the start of your next turn as a zombie...". The "turning into a zombie" does not happen instantaneously, but rather at the start of your next turn.
Finger of Death's duration being "Instantaneous" does not necessarily imply that any and all effects happen the instant it is cast. Specifically, it means a creature killed by it cannot be "revived" by casting, for example, Dispel Magic on the target. It does imply, though, that its effects are "permanent and undispellable" (so you can't, for example, un-rise the created zombie by casting Dispel Magic, like you could with, for example, Danse Macabre). The corpse of the humanoid that was killed by Finger of Deathwill rise a zombie, if it is able to, and no amount of Dispel Magic will prevent it. If, on the other hand, the corpse ceases to be (whether by disintegration, transmutation magic that turns it into something other than a corpse, etc.), then it can't.
The only other possible rational interaction between the two features (Finger of Death and Fungal Infestation) would be that Fungal Infestation cannot be used on the corpse of a humanoid just killed by Finger of Death. That would be a contradiction, though, since Fungal Infestation simply states that the Druid can use their Reaction when a Small or Medium humanoid dies within 10' of them, and Finger of Death states "a humanoid killed by the spell...", which satisfies the conditions for Fungal Infestation. Again, a DM house ruling that targets of Finger of Death are not candidates for Fungal Infestation is, in my opinion, a valid and balanced rule, but a house rule nonetheless.
Having the recently-killed humanoid be affected by both spells simultaneously is not supported by the rules (Finger of Death states "permanent" control; the corpse cannot "rise as a zombie" if it already is a zombie, Fungal Infestation cannot animate a recently-killed humanoid if it no longer is a recently-killed humanoid (which would be the case if Finger of Death turned it into a zombie instantaneously, or into some new type of "special" entity which is not a "recently-killed creature", but also not a "living creature", nor a plain "object")).
The option to have the newly-risen zombie roll a Dexterity Saving Throw against Disintegrate is a non-starter, since at the point the spell was cast, the target is not a zombie, has no Dexterity, is an object, and is covered under the "Large or smaller nonmagical object" clause of Disintegrate.
As to whether I would allow someone to stop a Fireball by using their reaction to interpose their shield, or throw a bucket of water on the spark, or whatever... I would, were there rules covering it. But, as far as I'm aware, there are no rules regarding using your Reaction in such a way. Shield Master's third benefit comes close, but is not quite what you describe.
I still think you are missing elements of the official ruling instantaneous duration spells given in Sage Advice, but at this point I can see I am not going to convince of that.
It remains a contradiction in the rules.I see your solution of the Druid raising the corpse as a zombie as being just as much a house rule as you see my interpretation.
If I were playing in your game I would however grit my teeth and play by your interpretation. Your table, your game, your rules.
I still think you are missing elements of the official ruling instantaneous duration spells given in Sage Advice, but at this point I can see I am not going to convince of that.
It remains a contradiction in the rules.I see your solution of the Druid raising the corpse as a zombie as being just as much a house rule as you see my interpretation.
If I were playing in your game I would however grit my teeth and play by your interpretation. Your table, your game, your rules.
My apologies. I was, indeed, missing elements of that official ruling.
After reading the relevant part of the Sage Advice Compendium, and re-reading it again... it seems there is no completely consistent interpretation, since it is official that you can't stop the effects of Finger of Death with Dispel Magic, or any other effect of feature, but the effects of Finger of Death operate on an object that might not be there when they occur. The SAC addresses Animate Dead, which doesn't have that weird interaction of "cast now, but takes effect next turn" (in Animate Dead's case, the corpses are turned into undead instantaneously).
Given that, the least intrusive/disruptive adjustment I can think of is to change how Finger of Death works, slightly, so that it turns the freshly-killed humanoid into a zombie instantaneously, even though it won't actually rise until the caster's next turn. This would also mean that a Circle of Spores Druid cannot use their Reaction to animate a humanoid that was just killed with Finger of Death, since the humanoid is now no longer there; rather, there is a zombie where there was just a humanoid.
I've read arguments on both sides and though my say might not count for much, I agree for the most part with Davethelost with FoD gaining control of the once-humanoid-now-zombie after the Druid's FI has already animated it, though might handle it differently.
Edit: Apologies in advance if interpretations and own rulings are disallowed in the Rules and Game Mechanics discussion, I found this topic really interesting to read through and wanted to share my thoughts. If it's ok, I'm putting the rest of this post in a spoiler as I'm not sure how much it really adds to a Ruling discussion.
I agree that FoD's effects, and requirements it looks for, all happen instantaneously on the turn it is cast, no questions asked. If a humanoid is killed by the spell then it WILL rise at the start of your next turn as a zombie, no matter the interference of Fungal Infestation, it does not change the fact that it was a humanoid that was killed by FoD and meets the requirements.
Now how I see it differently and is completely my own interpretation is the mechanic of FI, with perhaps an interpretation of theme rather than ruling, in that it specifies "a beast or humanoid..." and that "you can use your reaction to animate it, causing it to stand up immediately with 1 hit point. The creature uses the zombie stat block in the Monster Manual.". In my opinion what you create with FI is not specifically a zombie, it is only the creature (being a beast or humanoid) that you targeted, that's using the zombie stat block. I also considered the theme of animation and judging that it's called Fungal Infestation and states, "your spores gain the ability to infest a corpse and animate it" that it's the movement of the spores the Druid controls within the body (obeys your mental commands) that allows it to move and attack; plus that the spores also give it just 1 hit point and only allow the attack action makes me think this is an extremely fragile and simple animation that's unlikely to hold against any sort of resilience.
With these thoughts in mind I consider at the start of the FoD caster's next turn that there is now a creature that was killed by FoD last turn and is infused with that necromantic magic, that is currently being animated by the spores of a Druid, and now rises as a zombie. Though it's already stood up and risen as per FI, so I would propose a contest of will as the Druid's spores and fragile animation are pressured by the necromantic infusion of FoD, to maintain control of the creature for as long as possible. Something like a Wisdom save from the Druid against the spell save DC of the FoD caster, once per turn each time the Druid attempts to command it, and on a failure the FI spores are rendered inert and the Druid can no longer attempt to control it.
Yes this is almost entirely all my own interpretation but is personally how I understand it and would play it out in response to the original question and just wanted to share.
Either way, the zombie is most probably under the Druid's control for the duration of the Fungal Infestation. Even if a DM ruled that the FoD gave control of the zombie, I would still rule that the Druid got the ability to issue one mental command to the zombie once per turn as per Fungal Infestation. After all the zombie is infected with the spores, they did cause it to animate early from FoD's perspective, and they do give the Druid that ability.
Since as it was pointed out "most powerful spell" applies to two iterations of the same spell on the same target, not to two different spells.
I suppose it is possible that the zombie comes under control of the FoD caster at the start of the FoD casters next turn, but the Druid still gets to give it one mental command per turn, so both spells have their normal effect there. Whose command the zombie acts on depending maybe on the positions of the two casters in initiative, the zombie's turn coming immediately after the Druid according to Fungal Infestation, so if the Druid has initiative first the zombie might have already taken its turn by the time the other caster gets to give it a command. At the end of the Fungal Infestation the zombie might well die, and since it was already animated as a zombie it fulfilled that part of FoD and so would not rise again. It would really suck to have cast FoD then. You had control of a zombie that used its action every turn before you could give it a command and then it died. That is just mean. Especially since Fungal Infestation doesn't use a spell slot and FoD does, a 7th level slot to boot. Want to see a necromancer cry? They have to be 13th level before they get their first 7th level spell slot, 20th to get the second. A Druid only has to be 6th level to use Fungal Infestation. Even Dispell Magic would require a DC 17 spell casting check to prevent the zombie from rising for the necromancer unless it was cast with a 7th level or higher spell slot. Way to really mess with one of the most powerful necromancy spells out there, and at lower level up to your Wisdom modifier times between long rests.
All this assuming that the FoD actually killed the target, which while very likely is not certain with a high level character. Our Druid will be within range of the poor target for Halo of Spores in any case if he is going to use Fungal Infestation to make it a zombie, so he will have an extra chance to do damage to a target softened up by FoD.
Hopefully making a zombie wasn't the necromancer's purpose in casting FoD, Animate Dead is only a third level spell after all, which requires only a 5th level caster. The only real benefit to a Finger of Death zombie is it lasts longer. Forever, or at least until destroyed for FoF, 24 hours for Animated Dead, one hour for Fungal Infestation. But if it is within ten feet of you when it dies at the end of Fungal Infestation you can just raise it back up again.
This is such a narrow case occurrence I wonder if it would ever come up in actual play? But I think after reading all the material a couple of times now and really thinking about how it all would apply I'm going to have to go with BoboBoombang and say "sucks to be you" to the necromancer. And thank you to DxJxC for pointing me to the official version.
Sorry DMSimmons, but I think you lose the zombie. best case necromancer acts before Druid in initiative and can squeeze a command to the zombie in there. But at the end of the 24 hour duration of Fungal Infestation I think that zombie is gonna die and stay dead.
I have enjoyed this little thought experiment. Thank you guys for making me dig into it, defend my points and position and consider your points and position. I even changed my mind somewhat. yes, someone on the internet just admitted he was wrong!
Nothing in either spell needs to say the spell stops effecting the corpse, because the spell only affects the corpse at 2 specific times as stated by the effect of the spell. "Instantaneous", meaning "when cast." And "at the start of your next turn" meaning "at the start of your next turn."
If you look at finger of death as a process that is already taking place, then spore infestation has interrupted that process, causing the second effect to not happen. It doesn't need to say cancels the effect, because it by the nature of the rules prevents the effect.
Focusing on only the verbs is a terrible way to make rulings. Fungal Infestation says "dies" when it ends because an undead is not dead. And when the undead dies again it is no longer a humanoid that died to finger of death. So there isn't a "possible to consider," it's "that's what happened." And again, zombies are not dead.
The first half of your second paragraph is a confused mess. "Zombies are alive, which means it wasn't killed, so it can't be undead, otherwise it was killed, and therefore becomes a zombie"??? Back on track, regardless of what it is a matter of, a living(undead) zombie is not a dead humanoid, period. And it can be turned. And monster descriptions are not rules. So it is not unresolved, I resolved it pretty well back on comment 10.
[Edit]I am not commenting on your latest post. It is too long, mostly wrong (except where it contradicts itself), and I covered some of it in this post anyway.
Finger of Death has a duration of instantaneous. Its effects will not be suspended by another spell, so it should have its full effect. According to Sage Advice an "instantaneous" spell flares magic only for a split second. The magic for the zombie to rise has already taken place at the instant of casting. It does not occur again when the zombie rises.
Looks like we could have saved two pages of discussion by just checking Sage Advice for the official rules interpretation on instantaneous duration spells.
This isn't really relevant to the argument. The spell isn't being suspended or dispelled. The effect simply failed, like casting a spell on an invalid target, because that is essentially what happened.
Also, link to the sage advice when you post it.
When the spell was cast it had a valid target. So "it was cast on on an invalid target" is precisely what did not essentially happen. The spell was, in point of fact, cast on a valid target. It is a spell with a duration of instantaneous. Per Sage Advice the effects of an instantaneous spell are brought into being by magic, but the effects aren't sustained by magic. The magic flares for a split second and then vanishes.
How do I link to a portion of a multipage document? https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf see page 15
The problem arrises from two effects that do two different things, and the question of whether or not you can interrupt the effects of a spell with a duration f instantaneous after that spell has been cast and taken effect. The FoD killed the subject, there for the spell took effect. The spell, which already took effect, also causes the corpse to rise as a zombie on a subsequent turn. This is all part of the instantaneous duration effect of Finger of Death. The problem is that Fungal Infestation has a different, non-spell effect which is triggered by, but conflicts with, the effect of Finger of Death.
The rule of specific trumping general does not apply as these are both specific rules, one a spell the other a feature. The feature is triggered by part of the effect of the spell, but nothing says it cancels the other part of the spell effect. The second part of the spell effect has already been triggered at the instant of spell casting by the rule for instantaneous duration spells.
The phrase in Finger of Death "rises at the start of your next turn" could validly be read as "stands up at the start of your next turn", thus saying nothing about when the corpse becomes a zombie, only when it rises to its feet and can take actions.
The designers screwed up and produced a conflict in the rules. It would not be the first time Jeremy Crawford has contradicted himself. Nor would it be the first time rules were in conflict.
Exactly to the point at hand, would you allow a Dispell Magic cast on the corpse of humanoid slain by the damage from a Finger of Death spell to prevent that corpse from rising as a zombie under the control of the FoD caster? Why or why not?
Assume that the Dispell Magic is cast on a character turn occurring after the FoD is cast, but before the next turn of the FoD caster.
This argument has gone on way too long and while specifics have changed, the bottom line has stayed the same. I'm only going to say this once more, then I'm done with this subject.
In order to raise the dead target at the beginning of your turn after you kill it, the target has to be dead at the beginning of your turn after you killed it. Simple.
And no, zombies are not dead. And no, a minute later is not the turn after you killed it. And no, you can't take control of the zombie the druid made. None of that is what the effect says.
That's it. Event = subject + instance. If the time and/or target are do not meet the conditions of the event, the event doesn't happen. The event CAN NOT happen.
No, because there is not an ongoing effect on the target. I would rule this as a second effect trigger not an ongoing one. I can see other DMs ruling differently, and that is up to them.
But as I said before:
Instantaneous spell duration. Read the rules. Sage Advice is official rules. The full effect of Finger of Death was locked in the instant the spell took effect. To use your phrasing the Fungal Infestation did not have a valid target. QED
The event is the casting and taking effect of Finger of Death, and that occurs entirely in the split second that the spell is cast. the magic is not, and does not need to be sustained from the instant the spell first takes effect until the zombie rises.
If you want to argue against that take it up with Jeremy Crawford, since he is the one who gave that official ruling on what instantaneous duration means for spells.
Consider this:
A Necromancer casts Finger of Death on a humanoid, which dies, and will rise as a zombie under the permanent control of the Necromancer on their next turn. Before their next turn, though, another Wizard casts Disintegrate on the humanoid's corpse. Being a "Large or smaller nonmagical object", the corpse is immediately disintegrated. The Necromancer's next turn comes up... is there a zombie under their permanent control now? Obviously not, because the corpse that would've risen was disintegrated. I submit that, similarly, if a corpse were animated by a Circle of Spores Druid before the Necromancer's next turn (after casting Finger of Death), there is now no longer any corpse to rise (there is, though a zombie under the temporary control of the Druid, but Finger of Death makes no mention of "other zombies" or what happens to them), and therefore no zombie under the permanent control of the Necromancer.
Having said that, I do concede that consider how Finger of Death is particularly unimpressive at the level it's taken, and how taxing it is on a Wizard's resources, having a significantly lower leveled ability disrupt its use might be considered inappropriate, and would happily accept any DM's ruling that the zombie animated by the Druid re-rises as a zombie under the permanent control of the Wizard who initially killed the humanoid with Finger of Death when it dies, whether "naturally", or when the 1 hour duration is up. I would still consider that a house rule, and not a "proper" interpretation of the rules.
I will gladly say that a creature killed by Finger of Death then hit by a Disintegrate spell before it rises as a zombie will disintegrate. That does not seem to contradict the instantaneous duration and instant effect of the Finger of Death spell. After it rises it would have to save against the spell. The strictest possible interpretation would be that the body (in the process of rising as a zombie) would have to make a Dexterity save. Since a zombie is Dex 6, and maximum 33 hit points, with a failed save doing a minimum of 50 hit points, I don't really rate its chances. A Dispell Magic would not prevent the rising as the spell has already taken effect.
It is the Finger of Death spell taking full effect immediately on casting that still presents the problem with Fungal Infestation. A spell and a class feature are trying to cause the same effect in the same target. After reading the Sage Advice I believe that the Finger of Death should have precedence. At most the Druid might have control until the duration of that effect is up.
If Finger of Death had a casting time longer than one action, or a duration other than instantaneous there would not be a rule conflict.
Are there any class features that can interrupt an instantaneous spell part way through it taking effect? Or any spells that can do that? Counterspell interrupts the casting before it is complete so the spell fails. I am asking about interrupting an instantaneous spell after it has been successfully cast.
As soon as Jeremy Crawford posts to errata or Sage Advice that this is what happens in this case as an exception to the rule I will accept it. But to me it seems to violate the rule as it currently stands.
I don't understand this argument.
Read the effects referred to:
Finger of Death
A humanoid killed by this spell rises at the start of your next turn as a zombie that is permanently under your command, following your verbal orders to the best of its ability.
Fungal Infestation
At 6th level, your spores gain the ability to infest a humanoid corpse and animate it. If you slay a humanoid with your Halo of Spores damage, the creature rises as a zombie at the end of your turn. It has 1 hit point.
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Finger of death is instantaneous. This means that the humanoid that is killed is instantly converted into a zombie. The fact that it takes until your next turn for it to get its wits together and stand up is irrelevant. It just means that it can't be told to do anything until the start of your next turn.The magic is done when the spell completes since its duration is instantaneous.
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Both finger of death and fungal infestation REQUIRE that they kill/slay the humanoid in order for the zombie to be created. Only one of these effects can actually kill the humanoid.
Either Halo of spores hits an undead creature AFTER the zombie is created. Or Finger of death doesn't have a valid target since a corpse created by the Halo of Spores is not a creature (or if Fungal Infestation immediately creates the zombie then it is an undead creature and not a humanoid and so can't rise as a zombie due to finger of death anyway).
D&D doesn't have simultaneous resolution of magical effects for a reason ... each of these effects/spells goes in order and depending on which went first the results of the interaction seem pretty clear. The key item to keep in mind is that Finger of Death is instantaneous. This means that the zombie is created as soon as the spell completes. It is no longer a humanoid corpse ... however, even if it WAS a humanoid corpse, it would not have been killed by Halo of Spores and so Fungal Infestation would not apply since it only applies to humanoids killed by the Halo of Spores feature.
That isn't the circle of spores or Fungal Infestation that was officially released.
Snipping the bits which don't apply because you are using the UA rules, instead of the published official rules from Ravnica. The rest is exactly my argument. It doesn't really matter what Fungal Infestation does, unless it can interrupt an instantaneous spell. Which as far as I know nothing in D&D can do.
Can you stop a Fireball once cast from reaching its target? Say I have a Fighter with a really high dexterity standing alongside the path between the caster and the target. Can I though out my shield and block that streaking Fireball, so it doesn't reach the target and doesn't explode? Or throw a bucket of water on the streaking spark and put out the Fireball that way? After the spell has been cast, but while the streak of fire is streaking by?
Why not? It is the same thing. Blocking part of the effect of an instantaneous duration spell after it has been successfully cast.
Finger of Death does not instantaneously turn the killed target's corpse into a zombie. That happens at the start of the caster's next turn. The spell does not read "the target humanoid's corpse is turned into a zombie, which you can control starting at the beginning of your next turn". It reads "a humanoid killed by this spell rises at the start of your next turn as a zombie...". The "turning into a zombie" does not happen instantaneously, but rather at the start of your next turn.
Finger of Death's duration being "Instantaneous" does not necessarily imply that any and all effects happen the instant it is cast. Specifically, it means a creature killed by it cannot be "revived" by casting, for example, Dispel Magic on the target. It does imply, though, that its effects are "permanent and undispellable" (so you can't, for example, un-rise the created zombie by casting Dispel Magic, like you could with, for example, Danse Macabre). The corpse of the humanoid that was killed by Finger of Death will rise a zombie, if it is able to, and no amount of Dispel Magic will prevent it. If, on the other hand, the corpse ceases to be (whether by disintegration, transmutation magic that turns it into something other than a corpse, etc.), then it can't.
The only other possible rational interaction between the two features (Finger of Death and Fungal Infestation) would be that Fungal Infestation cannot be used on the corpse of a humanoid just killed by Finger of Death. That would be a contradiction, though, since Fungal Infestation simply states that the Druid can use their Reaction when a Small or Medium humanoid dies within 10' of them, and Finger of Death states "a humanoid killed by the spell...", which satisfies the conditions for Fungal Infestation. Again, a DM house ruling that targets of Finger of Death are not candidates for Fungal Infestation is, in my opinion, a valid and balanced rule, but a house rule nonetheless.
Having the recently-killed humanoid be affected by both spells simultaneously is not supported by the rules (Finger of Death states "permanent" control; the corpse cannot "rise as a zombie" if it already is a zombie, Fungal Infestation cannot animate a recently-killed humanoid if it no longer is a recently-killed humanoid (which would be the case if Finger of Death turned it into a zombie instantaneously, or into some new type of "special" entity which is not a "recently-killed creature", but also not a "living creature", nor a plain "object")).
The option to have the newly-risen zombie roll a Dexterity Saving Throw against Disintegrate is a non-starter, since at the point the spell was cast, the target is not a zombie, has no Dexterity, is an object, and is covered under the "Large or smaller nonmagical object" clause of Disintegrate.
As to whether I would allow someone to stop a Fireball by using their reaction to interpose their shield, or throw a bucket of water on the spark, or whatever... I would, were there rules covering it. But, as far as I'm aware, there are no rules regarding using your Reaction in such a way. Shield Master's third benefit comes close, but is not quite what you describe.
I still think you are missing elements of the official ruling instantaneous duration spells given in Sage Advice, but at this point I can see I am not going to convince of that.
It remains a contradiction in the rules.I see your solution of the Druid raising the corpse as a zombie as being just as much a house rule as you see my interpretation.
If I were playing in your game I would however grit my teeth and play by your interpretation. Your table, your game, your rules.
My apologies. I was, indeed, missing elements of that official ruling.
After reading the relevant part of the Sage Advice Compendium, and re-reading it again... it seems there is no completely consistent interpretation, since it is official that you can't stop the effects of Finger of Death with Dispel Magic, or any other effect of feature, but the effects of Finger of Death operate on an object that might not be there when they occur. The SAC addresses Animate Dead, which doesn't have that weird interaction of "cast now, but takes effect next turn" (in Animate Dead's case, the corpses are turned into undead instantaneously).
Given that, the least intrusive/disruptive adjustment I can think of is to change how Finger of Death works, slightly, so that it turns the freshly-killed humanoid into a zombie instantaneously, even though it won't actually rise until the caster's next turn. This would also mean that a Circle of Spores Druid cannot use their Reaction to animate a humanoid that was just killed with Finger of Death, since the humanoid is now no longer there; rather, there is a zombie where there was just a humanoid.
I've read arguments on both sides and though my say might not count for much, I agree for the most part with Davethelost with FoD gaining control of the once-humanoid-now-zombie after the Druid's FI has already animated it, though might handle it differently.
Edit: Apologies in advance if interpretations and own rulings are disallowed in the Rules and Game Mechanics discussion, I found this topic really interesting to read through and wanted to share my thoughts. If it's ok, I'm putting the rest of this post in a spoiler as I'm not sure how much it really adds to a Ruling discussion.
I agree that FoD's effects, and requirements it looks for, all happen instantaneously on the turn it is cast, no questions asked. If a humanoid is killed by the spell then it WILL rise at the start of your next turn as a zombie, no matter the interference of Fungal Infestation, it does not change the fact that it was a humanoid that was killed by FoD and meets the requirements.
Now how I see it differently and is completely my own interpretation is the mechanic of FI, with perhaps an interpretation of theme rather than ruling, in that it specifies "a beast or humanoid..." and that "you can use your reaction to animate it, causing it to stand up immediately with 1 hit point. The creature uses the zombie stat block in the Monster Manual.". In my opinion what you create with FI is not specifically a zombie, it is only the creature (being a beast or humanoid) that you targeted, that's using the zombie stat block. I also considered the theme of animation and judging that it's called Fungal Infestation and states, "your spores gain the ability to infest a corpse and animate it" that it's the movement of the spores the Druid controls within the body (obeys your mental commands) that allows it to move and attack; plus that the spores also give it just 1 hit point and only allow the attack action makes me think this is an extremely fragile and simple animation that's unlikely to hold against any sort of resilience.
With these thoughts in mind I consider at the start of the FoD caster's next turn that there is now a creature that was killed by FoD last turn and is infused with that necromantic magic, that is currently being animated by the spores of a Druid, and now rises as a zombie. Though it's already stood up and risen as per FI, so I would propose a contest of will as the Druid's spores and fragile animation are pressured by the necromantic infusion of FoD, to maintain control of the creature for as long as possible. Something like a Wisdom save from the Druid against the spell save DC of the FoD caster, once per turn each time the Druid attempts to command it, and on a failure the FI spores are rendered inert and the Druid can no longer attempt to control it.
Yes this is almost entirely all my own interpretation but is personally how I understand it and would play it out in response to the original question and just wanted to share.