Hi. It comes up over and over - how loud is the verbal component of a spell? We all know it isn't silent (since that required metamagic), but there is a large range from "booming voice" through "two people taking" to "whispering".
For example, a group wants to sneak in somewhere, and at some point the need for a Silence spell comes up. Would you rule unsuspecting enemies on the other side of a thick door would notice/hear the spell being cast when the caster tries to be a silent as possible?
Would a stealth-roll to muffle the sounds make sense?
Again, it clearly makes sounds, the question is how much.
I would usually rule that it has to be spoken clearly and hit different tones (so at least at a low speaking volume). A stealth or perhaps arcana check to modify the verbal component to use whispers should also be fine.
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion.
From there, it's very much up to the DM of a campaign to decide what they allow.
This level of flexibility within the rules is simultaneously one of the greatest things about Dungeons & Dragons, and also one of the biggest problems.
My personal take on it, for my campaigns, is that a spell caster is calling upon some external force to manifest a spell with a Verbal component. That may be a cleric requesting that their deity intervene and strike down a monster, or a Wizard incanting arcane words to draw forth the elements of fire to create a fireball. This means in my campaigns, any spell with a verbal component requires that the caster be sufficiently loud for that to happen - I judge this to be a bit louder than normal conversation. I imagine someone addressing a room full of people and wanting to be heard.
Overall, there is no answer within the rulebooks - you just need to make a call for your game.
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion.
From there, it's very much up to the DM of a campaign to decide what they allow.
This level of flexibility within the rules is simultaneously one of the greatest things about Dungeons & Dragons, and also one of the biggest problems.
My personal take on it, for my campaigns, is that a spell caster is calling upon some external force to manifest a spell with a Verbal component. That may be a cleric requesting that their deity intervene and strike down a monster, or a Wizard incanting arcane words to draw forth the elements of fire to create a fireball. This means in my campaigns, any spell with a verbal component requires that the caster be sufficiently loud for that to happen - I judge this to be a bit louder than normal conversation. I imagine someone addressing a room full of people and wanting to be heard.
Overall, there is no answer within the rulebooks - you just need to make a call for your game.
I was at a Thanksgiving dinner once, and someone said a pre-meal prayer. Sort of mumbled it, and one little old lady said "Well, I sure hope God was listening." :)
I'm not bashing, as you say you have to make some rule about this. It just strikes me as funny that a D&D deity, able to hear me from wherever the deity resides--other plane, for example--would only be able to hear me based on volume :) It can hear me speak from across other dimensions and/or thousands of miles, the forces of energy and magic that exist surrounding all things on the planet can hear me speak...but only if I speak loud enough. :D
I've always viewed it as your voice, the wavelengths and pitch, interacting with the other parts of the spell--the magical energies and light waves and fire and etc etc. You can shatter a glass with the right pitch and enough volume, so similarly magic needs the right volume. But again, not saying that makes any more sense than your way.
I am just imagining a D&D god sitting in her throne room on another plane, thinking about God things or watching angelic dancers or something, and then saying "Wait...someone's calling on me from the Prime Material Plane...what are they saying? Speak up!" :D
Yup, that's absolutely an equally valid interpretation!
This is absolutely why it's up to each group to decide how they want to play it. :)
My reasoning is more about commitment and conviction in demanding compliance or requesting assistance, than whether the deity can actually hear the request.
Yup, that's absolutely an equally valid interpretation!
This is absolutely why it's up to each group to decide how they want to play it. :)
My reasoning is more about commitment and conviction in demanding compliance or requesting assistance, than whether the deity can actually hear the request.
I figured it was something like that, I just got that funny image in my head and it stuck :)
It did get me thinking, though. Oddly enough, some of the most attention paid to this issue in fiction is with Harry Pottery. They have to learn to enunciate properly or the spell won't work. But I remember whichever book it was, with Snape mumbling a spell under his breath during a Quiddich match. So maybe the volume for the kids was because it's harder to enunciate with mumbling, but as you get older/more experienced, you can do it more quietly and still do it correctly.
That might be an interesting mechanic. The higher your spellcasting level, the more quietly you can cast a spell. Although with Sorcerers still there, maybe a normal speaking voice or just below (quiet coffee shop speaking voice) is as low as you can go normally. Or more nuanced--the longer you have been able to cast the spell level, the quieter. So a higher level caster still has to speak higher level spells more loudly.
I think that it depends on the situation. I went to lunch with some friends today and we sat at a table by the water. We could hear the table next to us and I’m positive that they could hear us, but we couldn’t hear the table on the other side of them. On Thursday I went to a Kiss concert and I could only hear the person next to me when she shouted in my ear. In a library I can hear someone who is on the other side of the library while they’re whispering.
Casting spells requires speaking, and I’d say that it can be done softly, but above a whisper. And depending on the situation it’s possible to try to disguise that you’re casting a spell as long as it doesn’t originate with you, but there’s always a chance that you’ll be noticed.
I have usually assumed that spell casting requires normal speaking volume. You don't have to shout, and a mutter or mumble won't be clear enough. But it can be soft enough not to be heard on the other side of a thick door unless someone is actively listening for it. If someone were listening on the other side of the door I would have them make a perception check.
There isn't any official rule on it that I am aware of. Just as I don't recall any rule about how vigorous somatic components are, just that they require a free hand and some ability to move.
I think the War Caster feat would be good for this. You could use one hand to cover your mouth and cast your spell with your free hand, speaking at normal volume but muffled by your hand.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'll roll to see how fun this is. Oh look at that. Natural 20
The character must speak loudly and clearly enough that anyone with a Passive Perception of 10 or higher would be able to hear them.
So pretty much everyone then. Only people with a negative wisdom modifier and not proficient in perception wouldn't be able to hear it if they were in range.
Yeah the fundamental idea of all three spellcasting components is that they be obviously spellcasting components to all observers.
If a player wanted to whisper their verbal components for RP reasons, I’d let them for sure, but I’d still rule that observers know they’re casting a spell and handwave any logical inconsistency there.
Keeping your spells subtle is what Subtle Spell is for.
Yep. Spellcasting is supposed to be obvious. Otherwise you completely undercut the Sorcerer's class traits.
This pretty much up to the DM. Since spellcasting can (except for the Sorcerer subtle meta-magic) require a verbal component, we could expect that that component would be audible under at least some circumstances. In other words, someone casting a spell without subtle meta magic should be noticeable but HOW noticeable is entirely up to the DM and will be different at every table.
As another poster mentioned, ambient sound varies a lot. If a constant volume is required then there will be circumstances where the verbal component is noticeable and others where it is not. If instead the verbal component is required to be louder than nearby sounds then there would tend to be a distance in which the verbal component was audible and perhaps a farther distance at which it would be noticeable as noise. This is all entirely up to the DM and does not undermine the sorcerer subtle meta magic which guarantees that the spellcasting will not be noticeable.
For example, hex has a range of 90', is it reasonable that a target would know hex was being cast from someone standing 80' away? In a library? Outside in a thunderstorm? Anywhere? The rules don't say so it is up to the DM. Personally, I'd tend to rule that the verbal component isn't loud enough to be heard from 80' away.
When you cast a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to cast it without any somatic or verbal components.
A verbal component requires you have the use of your mouth: not gagged, not suffocating, not in a zone of silence, etc. A somatic component requires at least one free hand/a focus in a hand. For 1 sorcery point, you are at minimum gaining the ability to cast without needing to be able to speak or move in any way, which is incredibly versatile and powerful. Sure, Subtle Spell is helpful for making your spells more "subtle" (quieter, less motion). However, that is not to say that it is the only way to cast subtly.
Nothing in Chapter 10- Spellcasting requires that verbal components be delivered with any particular volume, just like somatic components need not be delivered with any particular dexterity or number of fingers. Nothing says that spellcasting must be overt enough to catch a Passive Perception of 10. There is nothing saying that is "supposed to be obvious". In fact, quite the opposite:
Unless a spell has a perceptible effect, a creature might not know it was targeted by a spell at all. An effect like crackling lightning is obvious, but a more subtle effect, such as an attempt to read a creature's thoughts, typically goes unnoticed, unless a spell says otherwise.
Xanathar's introduced some additional optional rules, but essentially says the same thing the PHB did:
Perceiving a Caster at Work
Many spells create obvious effects: explosions of fire, walls of ice, teleportation, and the like. Other spells, such as charm person, display no visible, audible, or otherwise perceptible sign of their effects, and could easily go unnoticed by someone unaffected by them. As noted in the Player’s Handbook, you normally don’t know that a spell has been cast unless the spell produces a noticeable effect.
But what about the act of casting a spell? Is it possible for someone to perceive that a spell is being cast in their presence? To be perceptible, the casting of a spell must involve a verbal, somatic, or material component. The form of a material component doesn’t matter for the purposes of perception, whether it’s an object specified in the spell’s description, a component pouch, or a spellcasting focus.
If the need for a spell’s components has been removed by a special ability, such as the sorcerer’s Subtle Spell feature or the Innate Spellcasting trait possessed by many creatures, the casting of the spell is imperceptible. If an imperceptible casting produces a perceptible effect, it’s normally impossible to determine who cast the spell in the absence of other evidence.
This makes clear that:
(1) Spellcasting with V, S, or M are potentially detectable. Spellcasting with no components (due to metamagic, or being innate) are not detectable. No general rule is provided about what the DC to detect those components being used is, or restricting the ability of a player to try to use a component stealthily (presumably a stealth roll).
(2) Spells with "noticeable effects" have their effects noticed. That is not to say that someone has noticed the caster spellcasting, even when the caster is casting a spell with a noticeable effect.
You’re conflating the casting with the effect. The rules say that a creature might not know they’ve been targeted by a spell, which is definitely not the same thing as “a creature might not know a spell has been cast.”
There’s a lot that the rules don’t say; that’s why this particular board is so lively. Xanathar’s Guide is not the core rules, but it does clarify that a spell cast with components is perceptible.
Cubester, note that the rules are describing that (1) the spell effect and (2) the spellcasting of the caster are two different things, that may or may not be perceived indepdendent of each other. A caster can be noticed casting despite the spell's effect being imperceptible. A spell's effect might be noticed despite not noticing who cast it. Or both might be noticed, or neither.
That's the rule that's been written in the PHB, and also reinforced in a later optional rules supplement. Spellcasting is not automatically noticed, RAW.
Hi. It comes up over and over - how loud is the verbal component of a spell? We all know it isn't silent (since that required metamagic), but there is a large range from "booming voice" through "two people taking" to "whispering".
For example, a group wants to sneak in somewhere, and at some point the need for a Silence spell comes up. Would you rule unsuspecting enemies on the other side of a thick door would notice/hear the spell being cast when the caster tries to be a silent as possible?
Would a stealth-roll to muffle the sounds make sense?
Again, it clearly makes sounds, the question is how much.
Thanks in advance.
This is the million dollar question.
I would usually rule that it has to be spoken clearly and hit different tones (so at least at a low speaking volume). A stealth or perhaps arcana check to modify the verbal component to use whispers should also be fine.
The Player's Handbook states:
From there, it's very much up to the DM of a campaign to decide what they allow.
This level of flexibility within the rules is simultaneously one of the greatest things about Dungeons & Dragons, and also one of the biggest problems.
My personal take on it, for my campaigns, is that a spell caster is calling upon some external force to manifest a spell with a Verbal component. That may be a cleric requesting that their deity intervene and strike down a monster, or a Wizard incanting arcane words to draw forth the elements of fire to create a fireball. This means in my campaigns, any spell with a verbal component requires that the caster be sufficiently loud for that to happen - I judge this to be a bit louder than normal conversation. I imagine someone addressing a room full of people and wanting to be heard.
Overall, there is no answer within the rulebooks - you just need to make a call for your game.
Pun-loving nerd | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
I was at a Thanksgiving dinner once, and someone said a pre-meal prayer. Sort of mumbled it, and one little old lady said "Well, I sure hope God was listening." :)
I'm not bashing, as you say you have to make some rule about this. It just strikes me as funny that a D&D deity, able to hear me from wherever the deity resides--other plane, for example--would only be able to hear me based on volume :) It can hear me speak from across other dimensions and/or thousands of miles, the forces of energy and magic that exist surrounding all things on the planet can hear me speak...but only if I speak loud enough. :D
I've always viewed it as your voice, the wavelengths and pitch, interacting with the other parts of the spell--the magical energies and light waves and fire and etc etc. You can shatter a glass with the right pitch and enough volume, so similarly magic needs the right volume. But again, not saying that makes any more sense than your way.
I am just imagining a D&D god sitting in her throne room on another plane, thinking about God things or watching angelic dancers or something, and then saying "Wait...someone's calling on me from the Prime Material Plane...what are they saying? Speak up!" :D
Looking for new subclasses, spells, magic items, feats, and races? Opinions welcome :)
Yup, that's absolutely an equally valid interpretation!
This is absolutely why it's up to each group to decide how they want to play it. :)
My reasoning is more about commitment and conviction in demanding compliance or requesting assistance, than whether the deity can actually hear the request.
Pun-loving nerd | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
I figured it was something like that, I just got that funny image in my head and it stuck :)
It did get me thinking, though. Oddly enough, some of the most attention paid to this issue in fiction is with Harry Pottery. They have to learn to enunciate properly or the spell won't work. But I remember whichever book it was, with Snape mumbling a spell under his breath during a Quiddich match. So maybe the volume for the kids was because it's harder to enunciate with mumbling, but as you get older/more experienced, you can do it more quietly and still do it correctly.
That might be an interesting mechanic. The higher your spellcasting level, the more quietly you can cast a spell. Although with Sorcerers still there, maybe a normal speaking voice or just below (quiet coffee shop speaking voice) is as low as you can go normally. Or more nuanced--the longer you have been able to cast the spell level, the quieter. So a higher level caster still has to speak higher level spells more loudly.
Looking for new subclasses, spells, magic items, feats, and races? Opinions welcome :)
I think that it depends on the situation. I went to lunch with some friends today and we sat at a table by the water. We could hear the table next to us and I’m positive that they could hear us, but we couldn’t hear the table on the other side of them. On Thursday I went to a Kiss concert and I could only hear the person next to me when she shouted in my ear. In a library I can hear someone who is on the other side of the library while they’re whispering.
Casting spells requires speaking, and I’d say that it can be done softly, but above a whisper. And depending on the situation it’s possible to try to disguise that you’re casting a spell as long as it doesn’t originate with you, but there’s always a chance that you’ll be noticed.
Professional computer geek
I have usually assumed that spell casting requires normal speaking volume. You don't have to shout, and a mutter or mumble won't be clear enough. But it can be soft enough not to be heard on the other side of a thick door unless someone is actively listening for it. If someone were listening on the other side of the door I would have them make a perception check.
There isn't any official rule on it that I am aware of. Just as I don't recall any rule about how vigorous somatic components are, just that they require a free hand and some ability to move.
I think the War Caster feat would be good for this. You could use one hand to cover your mouth and cast your spell with your free hand, speaking at normal volume but muffled by your hand.
I'll roll to see how fun this is. Oh look at that. Natural 20
The character must speak loudly and clearly enough that anyone with a Passive Perception of 10 or higher would be able to hear them.
Environmental factors (being in a large, cheering crowd; loud rushing water/waterfall; high winds, etc.) could overpower the speech with noise.
But allowing anything else (mumbling, covering your mouth, etc.) undercuts the Sorcerer class and their metamagics.
Spellcasting is supposed to be obvious unless there are specific factors that mitigate it (Silent Spell, etc.)
DCI: 3319125026
So pretty much everyone then. Only people with a negative wisdom modifier and not proficient in perception wouldn't be able to hear it if they were in range.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Yep. Spellcasting is supposed to be obvious. Otherwise you completely undercut the Sorcerer's class traits.
DCI: 3319125026
Yeah the fundamental idea of all three spellcasting components is that they be obviously spellcasting components to all observers.
If a player wanted to whisper their verbal components for RP reasons, I’d let them for sure, but I’d still rule that observers know they’re casting a spell and handwave any logical inconsistency there.
Keeping your spells subtle is what Subtle Spell is for.
This pretty much up to the DM. Since spellcasting can (except for the Sorcerer subtle meta-magic) require a verbal component, we could expect that that component would be audible under at least some circumstances. In other words, someone casting a spell without subtle meta magic should be noticeable but HOW noticeable is entirely up to the DM and will be different at every table.
As another poster mentioned, ambient sound varies a lot. If a constant volume is required then there will be circumstances where the verbal component is noticeable and others where it is not. If instead the verbal component is required to be louder than nearby sounds then there would tend to be a distance in which the verbal component was audible and perhaps a farther distance at which it would be noticeable as noise. This is all entirely up to the DM and does not undermine the sorcerer subtle meta magic which guarantees that the spellcasting will not be noticeable.
For example, hex has a range of 90', is it reasonable that a target would know hex was being cast from someone standing 80' away? In a library? Outside in a thunderstorm? Anywhere? The rules don't say so it is up to the DM. Personally, I'd tend to rule that the verbal component isn't loud enough to be heard from 80' away.
Disagree that whispering steps on Subtle Spell.
A verbal component requires you have the use of your mouth: not gagged, not suffocating, not in a zone of silence, etc. A somatic component requires at least one free hand/a focus in a hand. For 1 sorcery point, you are at minimum gaining the ability to cast without needing to be able to speak or move in any way, which is incredibly versatile and powerful. Sure, Subtle Spell is helpful for making your spells more "subtle" (quieter, less motion). However, that is not to say that it is the only way to cast subtly.
Nothing in Chapter 10- Spellcasting requires that verbal components be delivered with any particular volume, just like somatic components need not be delivered with any particular dexterity or number of fingers. Nothing says that spellcasting must be overt enough to catch a Passive Perception of 10. There is nothing saying that is "supposed to be obvious". In fact, quite the opposite:
Xanathar's introduced some additional optional rules, but essentially says the same thing the PHB did:
This makes clear that:
(1) Spellcasting with V, S, or M are potentially detectable. Spellcasting with no components (due to metamagic, or being innate) are not detectable. No general rule is provided about what the DC to detect those components being used is, or restricting the ability of a player to try to use a component stealthily (presumably a stealth roll).
(2) Spells with "noticeable effects" have their effects noticed. That is not to say that someone has noticed the caster spellcasting, even when the caster is casting a spell with a noticeable effect.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
"Other spells, such as charm person, display no visible, audible, or otherwise perceptible sign of their effects"
Strongly disagree.
Verbal components ARE audible effects.
DCI: 3319125026
You’re conflating the casting with the effect. The rules say that a creature might not know they’ve been targeted by a spell, which is definitely not the same thing as “a creature might not know a spell has been cast.”
There’s a lot that the rules don’t say; that’s why this particular board is so lively. Xanathar’s Guide is not the core rules, but it does clarify that a spell cast with components is perceptible.
Verbal components are audible causes, not audible effects :p
Cubester, note that the rules are describing that (1) the spell effect and (2) the spellcasting of the caster are two different things, that may or may not be perceived indepdendent of each other. A caster can be noticed casting despite the spell's effect being imperceptible. A spell's effect might be noticed despite not noticing who cast it. Or both might be noticed, or neither.
That's the rule that's been written in the PHB, and also reinforced in a later optional rules supplement. Spellcasting is not automatically noticed, RAW.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I never said "automatically".
DCI: 3319125026