There are no rules for this, so it's up to your DM.
If you want some sort of starting point rules-wise, here's how I'd handle it. First you'd have to restrain the enemy. You need to be grappling with both hands, and you use your action to make the same contest you do for grappling (your Athletics vs their Dexterity or Athletics) but with a -5 penalty on your roll. To suffocate or snap their neck, I'd ask them to repeat that process with their action on the next turn.
But the dragon's probably going to transform back to its true form as soon as it realizes you've got it pinned.
After thinking about it, I think I would set a neck snap DC to the target's CON or STR save mod (whichever is higher) + 16 and give the action an effect similar to Vorpal sword. This would set the difficulty to medium for the weakest creatures, and be progressively harder on tougher creatures.
This dragon would have a DC of 32. Pretty much impossible. Plus legendary, so no instant kill.
"sudden death attacks" aren't really a thing in D&D.
With good reason - I am sure that people would be pretty upset if a goblin did this to their high level character with a lucky roll. :)
There's some truth to this, but there's also no reason a DM can't let players do things the rules don't provide a consistent mechanic for on a case-by-case basis. The DM doesn't have to use that rule against the player either. There's already mechanics that the game's designers are fine with players having but monsters only use sparingly (e.g. stunning/paralyzing effects, counterspell.)
D&D gameplay isn't symmetrical and the rules are there to serve the players, not the other way around.
Not going to happen as assassinate isn't just a straight ...well...assassination to begin with, nothing is insta-death with exceptions of some few spells.
I'm just going to piggyback on this thread and ask if anyone has suggestions for strangulation rules. I know the PBH details suffocation, but strangling is not just about not being able to breathe but also having the blood flow cut off to your brain.
I'm just going to piggyback on this thread and ask if anyone has suggestions for strangulation rules. I know the PBH details suffocation, but strangling is not just about not being able to breathe but also having the blood flow cut off to your brain.
I don't see any reason to make it more complicated than just following the rules for suffocating. The only thing to maybe add would be some bludgeoning or slashing damage caused by object being used to strangulate (like a d4 bludgeoning for hands, d6 for a rope or chain, d8 slashing for a garrote).
I'm just going to piggyback on this thread and ask if anyone has suggestions for strangulation rules.
After grappling your opponent, you could just do damage each round as normal and describe it as strangulation. Once your opponent reaches 0 HP, you can decide whether they are unconscious or dead (as per the normal Knockout rules).
A big advantage to reflavoring normal rules is that players don't need DM adjudication/authorization to perform cool stunts (which can often cause those cool stunts to be ineffective or unbalancing). And if the DM really likes the description of the stunt, maybe they can grant advantage (which they're always are free to do, per the rules). But either way: reflavoring is fast and balanced.
I'm really asking for something to do against players - an ettercap web garrotte - description says target is grappled and can't breathe. I've realized that the suffocation rules do specify if a character is choking:
When a creature runs out of breath or is choking, it can survive for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum of 1 round). At the start of its next turn, it drops to 0 hit points and is dying, and it can't regain hit points or be stabilized until it can breathe again.
I'm really asking for something to do against players - an ettercap web garrotte - description says target is grappled and can't breathe. I've realized that the suffocation rules do specify if a character is choking:
When a creature runs out of breath or is choking, it can survive for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum of 1 round). At the start of its next turn, it drops to 0 hit points and is dying, and it can't regain hit points or be stabilized until it can breathe again.
So that's what I'll do. Harsh, but they're tough.
Are you using the sentence that precedes that? "A creature can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier (minimum of 30 seconds)."
Does the proposed action fall within the envelope of "things that should be possible, or plausible, within the context of the fantasy world"?
What are the odds of the Player/Character succeeding?
What is does the Player/Character "win" if they succeed.
What does the Player/Character "lose" if they fail.
Does the Player risk as much, or more - adjusted for probability - than they gain if they win? ( E.g. - if they only have a 1 in 3 chance of succeeding, do they gain twice as much as they'd lose, or less )?
If both #1, and #5 - then it's an acceptable gamble for the DM to take from a game balance perspective.
I think the first point is a crucial one. It points out that - pseudo-realistically - if something should be a possible ( if unlikely ) thing to do from inside the world, and the rules don't allow for it ( and in this case, 5e rules don't allow for this ), then you need to step at least partly outside the rules to accommodate the "realism" of the campaign world.
What you do have to do is match the consequences to the reward, through the probability, to keep game balance.
You have to set the probability ( based on how you understand the world to work ), and set the consequences for failure, to match the reward, as scaled by the probability.
Taking the above example of trying the snap the neck of the Dragon while it is in human form:
Let's put the DC of snapping a neck at 20 - Hard.
Let's say that is was a strong character, with a +3 Strength modifier.
That means that Player has a 4 in 20 chance of snapping the neck. That's a 20% chance of winning.
What do they win? Well - let's assume it's a Young Black Dragon - CR 7, with 2,900 XP and a ton of treasure. If I was the DM, I might only award some fraction of the XP based on the form - say 1/2 - so 1,450XP, which for 3rd level characters is a LOT.
What do they lose? Well - the Black Dragon is going to be very pissed at the Character which tried to "one shot kill" it. Let's say it's going to revert to Draconic form, and concentrate its ire and attacks on that one player and not get distracted with dealing with the rest of the Party until the Party manages to take down at least 1/2 its hit points. This means that the 3rd level character is probably going to die if they fail.
Looks like the Player risks more than they gain, for sure - especially when you factor in their low chance of success.
Under this system - it balances. I'd explain the risks to the Player. If they still wanted to do it, I'd make the roll :)
Now - I don't know if I agree, or disagree, with this approach, but it certainly is interesting, and it allows you to cover off areas of action which should be possible from within the campaign world, but aren't possible under RAW, and still maintain balance.
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Part of the deal that makes things like this hard are the bones of D&D. The hp system is simple and works great generally speaking.
In special cases like choking somebody out or breaking their neck it isn't as elegant. One major factor to consider is that it is totally possible for a strong somebody to kill a normal person in a round or two using unarmed attacks. So for us normal folk (2-6 hp) yeah, pretty easy to kill us.
If you think about movie heroes/villains, they struggle for up to a minute against an attacker choking them - 10 rounds. 10-30 ish total damage on average. Makes sense
I would very unlikely send an adult dragon against a lvl 3 party - that's making bad choices.
You're talking choking though - not the "Istanbul twist", or decapitation, or anything instant.
There are maneuvers which are instantly lethal, that are possible, that fall outside the rules.
If you just say "No, that's not covered by the rules", you take something away from the verisimilitude of the world; why is it impossible in the game world, and possible in the real?
Or - put another way - the Rules serve the Simulation, not the other way around.
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A CR 24 Ancient Gold Dragon that has polymorphed into the form of a regular human peasant may look like a weak human, but it still has 546 hit points. Five Hundred and Forty-six! This human peasant would laugh off three or four Meteor Swarms, but you think there is something you could do with your little mortal hands that would kill it?
I might allow a surprise grappled neck attack to be a free critical or extra damage unarmed attack - the kind of thing that would indeed kill a regular peasant in one shot, but this dragon-boned peasant would just smile at your puny efforts...
Sure, or you could have the Player snap the form's neck and force it back into Draconic form, much like you see with forms created by the Polymorph spell, which wouldn't actually kill it, if the Player made the roll. You're seem to be making a DM ruling that the human form has the resilience of the Dragon's bone structure. Nothing wrong with that interpretation - but it's an interpretation - so open to re-interpretation in other games.
All that aside - I'm more interested in this technique being used to close the "gap" between things that should be possible in the campaign world, and which aren't accounted for in the rules, without having to park the game and devise a whole new set of mechanics - than this particular application.
Following that technique through, I'd say you're arguing that the answer to question #1 "is this something that's should be possible to do in the campaign world, but it's not possible under the rules" is no, which is a perfectly reasonable interpretation, assuming that the result is the Dragon's death. I think it's possible if the end result is forcing the Dragon back into its natural form - but now we're ( possibly? ) arguing the nature of the world, and not merely falling back on the shortcomings of the rule set, so I still think this technique has value - even if we're still not instant killing CR 24 Dragons today.
But I essentially agree that even if you snapped the human form's neck, you shouldn't be insta-killing an ancient dragon.
I think this this technique has broader applications though - and if this was something weaker, like a Giant Constrictor Snake, I think it would be possible, even if "instant kill" moves are not covered under RAW, using this adjudication technique.
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Sure, or you could have the Player snap the form's neck and force it back into Draconic form, much like you see with forms created by the Polymorph spell, which wouldn't actually kill it, if the Player made the roll. You're seem to be making a DM ruling that the human form has the resilience of the Dragon's bone structure. Nothing wrong with that interpretation - but it's an interpretation - so open to re-interpretation in other games...
It's not really a DM ruling, that's how many hitpoints the morphed dragon has, and hitpoints are this game's representation of resilience. It is a different mechanism than the Polymorph spell, both the dragon's forms share the same hp pool. A creature with 546 hitpoints survives attacks that do less damage than that. The instakill threshold for that creature when it is at full health would be a 1093 damage attack. Even the wildest world-breaking spells imaginable don't do anywhere near that much damage. I think it is reasonable to rule that no amount of sudden neck twisting can achieve that damage level either.
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Hey guys!
So I managed to grapple a dragon while it was shapechanged into a human form and I wanted to snap it's neck. The dragon has 24 CR and I'm lvl 3.
How does this work roll wise? Or is this even possible to do?
At the moment the DM accepted this but we are investigating. Also, do I get the xp of the dragon CR 24 or the xp from his human CR form?
Thanks in advance
It isn't really possible to do within the rules of 5e, especially not with something that has so much health.
There are no rules for this, so it's up to your DM.
If you want some sort of starting point rules-wise, here's how I'd handle it. First you'd have to restrain the enemy. You need to be grappling with both hands, and you use your action to make the same contest you do for grappling (your Athletics vs their Dexterity or Athletics) but with a -5 penalty on your roll. To suffocate or snap their neck, I'd ask them to repeat that process with their action on the next turn.
But the dragon's probably going to transform back to its true form as soon as it realizes you've got it pinned.
"sudden death attacks" aren't really a thing in D&D.
With good reason - I am sure that people would be pretty upset if a goblin did this to their high level character with a lucky roll. :)
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After thinking about it, I think I would set a neck snap DC to the target's CON or STR save mod (whichever is higher) + 16 and give the action an effect similar to Vorpal sword. This would set the difficulty to medium for the weakest creatures, and be progressively harder on tougher creatures.
This dragon would have a DC of 32. Pretty much impossible. Plus legendary, so no instant kill.
There's some truth to this, but there's also no reason a DM can't let players do things the rules don't provide a consistent mechanic for on a case-by-case basis. The DM doesn't have to use that rule against the player either. There's already mechanics that the game's designers are fine with players having but monsters only use sparingly (e.g. stunning/paralyzing effects, counterspell.)
D&D gameplay isn't symmetrical and the rules are there to serve the players, not the other way around.
Not going to happen as assassinate isn't just a straight ...well...assassination to begin with, nothing is insta-death with exceptions of some few spells.
If you bring something 0 HP, you can generally describe the defeat anyway you wish.
I'm just going to piggyback on this thread and ask if anyone has suggestions for strangulation rules. I know the PBH details suffocation, but strangling is not just about not being able to breathe but also having the blood flow cut off to your brain.
I don't see any reason to make it more complicated than just following the rules for suffocating. The only thing to maybe add would be some bludgeoning or slashing damage caused by object being used to strangulate (like a d4 bludgeoning for hands, d6 for a rope or chain, d8 slashing for a garrote).
After grappling your opponent, you could just do damage each round as normal and describe it as strangulation. Once your opponent reaches 0 HP, you can decide whether they are unconscious or dead (as per the normal Knockout rules).
A big advantage to reflavoring normal rules is that players don't need DM adjudication/authorization to perform cool stunts (which can often cause those cool stunts to be ineffective or unbalancing). And if the DM really likes the description of the stunt, maybe they can grant advantage (which they're always are free to do, per the rules). But either way: reflavoring is fast and balanced.
I'm really asking for something to do against players - an ettercap web garrotte - description says target is grappled and can't breathe. I've realized that the suffocation rules do specify if a character is choking:
So that's what I'll do. Harsh, but they're tough.
Are you using the sentence that precedes that? "A creature can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier (minimum of 30 seconds)."
Sorry, but back to the original "sudden death" mechanic - I just read an interesting article by The Angry DM about how to deal with this kind of thing.
Basically, the argument goes long these lines:
I think the first point is a crucial one. It points out that - pseudo-realistically - if something should be a possible ( if unlikely ) thing to do from inside the world, and the rules don't allow for it ( and in this case, 5e rules don't allow for this ), then you need to step at least partly outside the rules to accommodate the "realism" of the campaign world.
What you do have to do is match the consequences to the reward, through the probability, to keep game balance.
You have to set the probability ( based on how you understand the world to work ), and set the consequences for failure, to match the reward, as scaled by the probability.
Taking the above example of trying the snap the neck of the Dragon while it is in human form:
Under this system - it balances. I'd explain the risks to the Player. If they still wanted to do it, I'd make the roll :)
Now - I don't know if I agree, or disagree, with this approach, but it certainly is interesting, and it allows you to cover off areas of action which should be possible from within the campaign world, but aren't possible under RAW, and still maintain balance.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
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Part of the deal that makes things like this hard are the bones of D&D. The hp system is simple and works great generally speaking.
In special cases like choking somebody out or breaking their neck it isn't as elegant. One major factor to consider is that it is totally possible for a strong somebody to kill a normal person in a round or two using unarmed attacks. So for us normal folk (2-6 hp) yeah, pretty easy to kill us.
If you think about movie heroes/villains, they struggle for up to a minute against an attacker choking them - 10 rounds. 10-30 ish total damage on average. Makes sense
I would very unlikely send an adult dragon against a lvl 3 party - that's making bad choices.
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You're talking choking though - not the "Istanbul twist", or decapitation, or anything instant.
There are maneuvers which are instantly lethal, that are possible, that fall outside the rules.
If you just say "No, that's not covered by the rules", you take something away from the verisimilitude of the world; why is it impossible in the game world, and possible in the real?
Or - put another way - the Rules serve the Simulation, not the other way around.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
A CR 24 Ancient Gold Dragon that has polymorphed into the form of a regular human peasant may look like a weak human, but it still has 546 hit points. Five Hundred and Forty-six! This human peasant would laugh off three or four Meteor Swarms, but you think there is something you could do with your little mortal hands that would kill it?
I might allow a surprise grappled neck attack to be a free critical or extra damage unarmed attack - the kind of thing that would indeed kill a regular peasant in one shot, but this dragon-boned peasant would just smile at your puny efforts...
Sure, or you could have the Player snap the form's neck and force it back into Draconic form, much like you see with forms created by the Polymorph spell, which wouldn't actually kill it, if the Player made the roll. You're seem to be making a DM ruling that the human form has the resilience of the Dragon's bone structure. Nothing wrong with that interpretation - but it's an interpretation - so open to re-interpretation in other games.
All that aside - I'm more interested in this technique being used to close the "gap" between things that should be possible in the campaign world, and which aren't accounted for in the rules, without having to park the game and devise a whole new set of mechanics - than this particular application.
Following that technique through, I'd say you're arguing that the answer to question #1 "is this something that's should be possible to do in the campaign world, but it's not possible under the rules" is no, which is a perfectly reasonable interpretation, assuming that the result is the Dragon's death. I think it's possible if the end result is forcing the Dragon back into its natural form - but now we're ( possibly? ) arguing the nature of the world, and not merely falling back on the shortcomings of the rule set, so I still think this technique has value - even if we're still not instant killing CR 24 Dragons today.
But I essentially agree that even if you snapped the human form's neck, you shouldn't be insta-killing an ancient dragon.
I think this this technique has broader applications though - and if this was something weaker, like a Giant Constrictor Snake, I think it would be possible, even if "instant kill" moves are not covered under RAW, using this adjudication technique.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
It's not really a DM ruling, that's how many hitpoints the morphed dragon has, and hitpoints are this game's representation of resilience. It is a different mechanism than the Polymorph spell, both the dragon's forms share the same hp pool. A creature with 546 hitpoints survives attacks that do less damage than that. The instakill threshold for that creature when it is at full health would be a 1093 damage attack. Even the wildest world-breaking spells imaginable don't do anywhere near that much damage. I think it is reasonable to rule that no amount of sudden neck twisting can achieve that damage level either.