I'm assuming the context you're referring to is that of a rogue taking potshots at a group of targets, but are we talking about:
An active combat encounter where your party is already engaged, and you're just firing from the back?
A non-active encounter where the enemy group is not aware of the party's presence at all?
In scenario #1 it can work. Your DM would roll Perception checks for the NPCs every time you fire (for those not already aware of your presence), and a Stealth check from you every time you attempt to re-hide (assuming you're using Cunning Action to hide as a Bonus Action after firing).
In scenario #2 it can work, but probably only for 1 round. The thing about hiding and ranged weapons is that (by default) whenever you make a ranged attack your position is revealed. Your position is revealed even if you miss.
A guard with an arrow in their back knows the arrow didn't come from in front of them.
A guard noticing an arrow bouncing off the wall next to them, landing on the floor or embedded into the surface it struck, will know which direction it was fired from.
Most importantly, a guard noticing that his buddy Paul is now lying face down on the floor (with an arrow through their throat) is going to be aware of where that arrow came from, and they're not going to stand around and wait for the same thing to happen to them.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
In scenario #1 it can work. Your DM would roll Perception checks for the NPCs every time you fire (for those not already aware of your presence), and a Stealth check from you every time you attempt to re-hide (assuming you're using Cunning Action to hide as a Bonus Action after firing).
You don't roll Perception for that, you use passive Perception as explained in the Hiding rules. Normally creatures only roll when they're actively looking for something, and that requires the Search action in combat. Rolling for every monster would cause hiding to have an incredibly low chance of succeeding and would also slow the fight down.
In scenario #2 it can work, but probably only for 1 round. The thing about hiding and ranged weapons is that (by default) whenever you make a ranged attack your position is revealed. Your position is revealed even if you miss.
Revealing yourself doesn't stop you from hiding again, even in the same spot.
I really recommend listening to the Dragon Talk episode on stealth. It's still one of the best all-around resources for understanding the hiding rules.
Yesterday, my rogue asked if he could run to cover on his turn, hide, and then fire a crossbow unseen. I told him the monster would see him run to cover and would not be surprised by the crossbow shot that happened immediately afterwards from the same location. I suggested he run to cover, fire, then hide for next turn. That made more sense to me.
Yesterday, my rogue asked if he could run to cover on his turn, hide, and then fire a crossbow unseen. I told him the monster would see him run to cover and would not be surprised by the crossbow shot that happened immediately afterwards from the same location. I suggested he run to cover, fire, then hide for next turn. That made more sense to me.
Per the rules his decision is applicable, and allowed assuming they roll a Stealth check. While, yes, most creatures are able to track movement and would see the Rogue dive behind cover, the moment he rolls Stealth a new situation has arisen. This is a very basic way of explaining it, but it's how I try to teach people the difference between gaining advantage or not:
First, the player gets behind cover or in a shadow/dimly lit area. Cover would equate to an AC bonus based on the type of cover you're giving the player (half, three-quarters, full), it could also simply be obscuring them from sight. A creature could reasonably see the player head that direction and anticipate what is going to happen next. (I don't believe that a player can hide simply because they call it, there must be something they can use to hide in/behind/under)
Next, the player rolls Stealth. This means the player is attempting to use this cover to mask the actions they are trying to take. At this point in time the creature must use their passive Perception to figure out what the player is doing. That doesn't change the fact that the creature saw the player head that direction, it simply means the creature is unaware of the player's actions. (It is important to understand that combat is happening around the creature and multiple threats are present which make it difficult to only focus on the player)
Finally, if the passive Perception is more than the Stealth roll, the creature is able to anticipate the actions of the hidden player and advantage is not gained. (The creature can see the player's head poking out a bit and it looks like they're readying an attack)
If the passive Perception is less than, or equal to, the Stealth roll, the creature cannot anticipate the actions of the hidden player and advantage is gained. (The player has hidden well enough the creature cannot see what the player is doing)
The actions of the hidden player can be, attack, move, cast a spell, curl up in the fetal position, or a number of other things. Because there are multiple actions that could be taken, it is assumed attacks are made with advantage because the creature cannot anticipate what is going to happen next.
(It is important to understand that combat is happening around the creature and multiple threats are present which make it difficult to only focus on the player)
This was the reasoning I used for why it would be more appropriate on the next round of combat (6 seconds later) as opposed to immediately. If I watch you run over to a tree and disappear behind it, I expect you to be behind that tree until something happens to pull my attention away from it, which I attribute to the general combat going around to the creature. But if I watch you run over to a tree, disappear behind it, and then immediately pop out the other side and shoot me, then I just watched it happen right then and there so I'm expecting it.
I can see what you're getting at, it does make sense. Unfortunately, if you go by the way it's written, they would get the sneak attack assuming the passive Perception doesn't beat the Stealth roll.
Another way to handle it would be to give advantage (+5) to the passive Perception, but it all comes down to a table rule and player buy in for that ruling.
In scenario #1 it can work. Your DM would roll Perception checks for the NPCs every time you fire (for those not already aware of your presence), and a Stealth check from you every time you attempt to re-hide (assuming you're using Cunning Action to hide as a Bonus Action after firing).
You don't roll Perception for that, you use passive Perception as explained in the Hiding rules. Normally creatures only roll when they're actively looking for something, and that requires the Search action in combat. Rolling for every monster would cause hiding to have an incredibly low chance of succeeding and would also slow the fight down.
In scenario #2 it can work, but probably only for 1 round. The thing about hiding and ranged weapons is that (by default) whenever you make a ranged attack your position is revealed. Your position is revealed even if you miss.
Revealing yourself doesn't stop you from hiding again, even in the same spot.
I really recommend listening to the Dragon Talk episode on stealth. It's still one of the best all-around resources for understanding the hiding rules.
You're absolutely right about all of these things, and none of what we have each said contradicts the other. The semantics of whether the DM "rolls" or uses passive is contextual.
If the guards Bob, Steve, George, and Joe are fighting the players, and Bob notices Steve's down in the corner where "nobody was", Bob's probably going to start actively looking for what took out Steve. Yes, it would take Bob's action to do so. It would also be an appropriate action for the NPC to take.
Yes, you can hide in the same spot over and over again if you'd like, but any creature that does become aware of your position (and has a mind to target you) will approach or attack that position. Snipers only nest when they know that the approach to their position is secure (clear view, allied line, traps, spotter, etc.). Otherwise, once your position is compromised (missed target, others spot you, etc.), you move to a new position.
Thanks for the Dragon Talk clip. I'll definitely listen to that when I have time!
I suggested he run to cover, fire, then hide for next turn
This would still leave the PC fully exposed to any creature that has a high enough passive (or roll on active), and the position is exposed to everyone else. They may not know you are there, but (unless you move before their initiative comes up) that's where the enemy is going to think you are.
I would recommend the order of: fire -> hide -> move
This way you've taken your shot, hidden (to whatever degree you succeed), and are no longer located in the area that any non-engaged creature would make a beeline to.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I would recommend the order of: fire -> hide -> move
This way you've taken your shot, hidden (to whatever degree you succeed), and are no longer located in the area that any non-engaged creature would make a beeline to.
I would even go so far as to suggest fire -> move -> hide. If you're hidden, you may or may not be able to move without exposing your position, depending on the situation.
Yesterday, my rogue asked if he could run to cover on his turn, hide, and then fire a crossbow unseen. I told him the monster would see him run to cover and would not be surprised by the crossbow shot that happened immediately afterwards from the same location. I suggested he run to cover, fire, then hide for next turn. That made more sense to me.
1) If the rogue is second level or higher then they have the cunning action ability to take several actions as a bonus action including hide.
2) If the cover is sufficient to block line of sight OR the character is a halfling and the cover is a creature a size larger than them OR the character is a wood elf and the cover is natural terrain that lightly obscures them THEN, in all of these situations, the character is permitted to make a stealth check to hide. If there is no cover and they are clearly visible then hiding is not possible.
3) On their turn a rogue can move. They also have a bonus action and action they may take. These can be done in any order.
If there is cover available, a rogue can move to the cover, they can use their bonus action to hide making a stealth check to see if they succeed against the target's passive perception and they can then use their attack action to use their crossbow with advantage on the attack roll from hiding against the target that has lost track of exactly what they are doing. This is perfectly legal as long as they have the bonus action to hide available and they succeed on the stealth check (this is why most rogues take expertise in stealth).
Firing the crossbow reveals their position and they are no longer hidden even if they move behind total cover. Their position is still known.
On the other hand, if the character takes the hide bonus action after shooting then they will remain hidden for the intervening turns until their turn comes up again unless opponents move to a position where they have a clear line of sight with no cover or concealment between them and the hidden character in which the character is no longer hidden since they can be clearly seen.
This was the reasoning I used for why it would be more appropriate on the next round of combat (6 seconds later) as opposed to immediately. If I watch you run over to a tree and disappear behind it, I expect you to be behind that tree until something happens to pull my attention away from it, which I attribute to the general combat going around to the creature. But if I watch you run over to a tree, disappear behind it, and then immediately pop out the other side and shoot me, then I just watched it happen right then and there so I'm expecting it.
If that were literally the only thing happening, that'd be a fair argument, but that's rarely the case. You might know the rogue's behind that tree, but when you also have a skilled fighter next to you trying to stab you with a spear, sometimes the rogue's going to get away with shooting you while you're busy trying not to die.
This really has nothing to do with the monster being surprised by the fact that the rogue shot them from behind the tree; the problem is the monster can't defend against an attack they can't see.
Seems like a pretty basic thing to ask about, but I can't seem to find it laid out anywhere whether someone can attempt to hide behind 1/2 or 3/4 cover. Total concealment seems to be much more straightforward. This passage doesn't exactly address the issue. I guess in the end, it's up to the DM to decide whether the situation breaks line of sight.
You can’t hide from a creature that can see you, and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position. An invisible creature can’t be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet.
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack before you are seen.
Is there a clear explanation of stealth and hiding by RAW?
Particularly for, say, a Rogue that likes to run around a corner, hide, peak out, and shoot with advantage? Rinse and repeat?
Blood Frenzy. The quipper has advantage on melee attack rolls against any creature that doesn't have all its hit points.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1 piercing damage.
Yes, that works until you fail a Stealth check or enemies get tired of your antics and follow you around the corner.
I'm assuming the context you're referring to is that of a rogue taking potshots at a group of targets, but are we talking about:
In scenario #1 it can work. Your DM would roll Perception checks for the NPCs every time you fire (for those not already aware of your presence), and a Stealth check from you every time you attempt to re-hide (assuming you're using Cunning Action to hide as a Bonus Action after firing).
In scenario #2 it can work, but probably only for 1 round. The thing about hiding and ranged weapons is that (by default) whenever you make a ranged attack your position is revealed. Your position is revealed even if you miss.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
You don't roll Perception for that, you use passive Perception as explained in the Hiding rules. Normally creatures only roll when they're actively looking for something, and that requires the Search action in combat. Rolling for every monster would cause hiding to have an incredibly low chance of succeeding and would also slow the fight down.
Revealing yourself doesn't stop you from hiding again, even in the same spot.
I really recommend listening to the Dragon Talk episode on stealth. It's still one of the best all-around resources for understanding the hiding rules.
Yesterday, my rogue asked if he could run to cover on his turn, hide, and then fire a crossbow unseen. I told him the monster would see him run to cover and would not be surprised by the crossbow shot that happened immediately afterwards from the same location. I suggested he run to cover, fire, then hide for next turn. That made more sense to me.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Per the rules his decision is applicable, and allowed assuming they roll a Stealth check. While, yes, most creatures are able to track movement and would see the Rogue dive behind cover, the moment he rolls Stealth a new situation has arisen. This is a very basic way of explaining it, but it's how I try to teach people the difference between gaining advantage or not:
First, the player gets behind cover or in a shadow/dimly lit area. Cover would equate to an AC bonus based on the type of cover you're giving the player (half, three-quarters, full), it could also simply be obscuring them from sight. A creature could reasonably see the player head that direction and anticipate what is going to happen next. (I don't believe that a player can hide simply because they call it, there must be something they can use to hide in/behind/under)
Next, the player rolls Stealth. This means the player is attempting to use this cover to mask the actions they are trying to take. At this point in time the creature must use their passive Perception to figure out what the player is doing. That doesn't change the fact that the creature saw the player head that direction, it simply means the creature is unaware of the player's actions. (It is important to understand that combat is happening around the creature and multiple threats are present which make it difficult to only focus on the player)
Finally, if the passive Perception is more than the Stealth roll, the creature is able to anticipate the actions of the hidden player and advantage is not gained. (The creature can see the player's head poking out a bit and it looks like they're readying an attack)
If the passive Perception is less than, or equal to, the Stealth roll, the creature cannot anticipate the actions of the hidden player and advantage is gained. (The player has hidden well enough the creature cannot see what the player is doing)
The actions of the hidden player can be, attack, move, cast a spell, curl up in the fetal position, or a number of other things. Because there are multiple actions that could be taken, it is assumed attacks are made with advantage because the creature cannot anticipate what is going to happen next.
This was the reasoning I used for why it would be more appropriate on the next round of combat (6 seconds later) as opposed to immediately. If I watch you run over to a tree and disappear behind it, I expect you to be behind that tree until something happens to pull my attention away from it, which I attribute to the general combat going around to the creature. But if I watch you run over to a tree, disappear behind it, and then immediately pop out the other side and shoot me, then I just watched it happen right then and there so I'm expecting it.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I can see what you're getting at, it does make sense. Unfortunately, if you go by the way it's written, they would get the sneak attack assuming the passive Perception doesn't beat the Stealth roll.
Another way to handle it would be to give advantage (+5) to the passive Perception, but it all comes down to a table rule and player buy in for that ruling.
You're absolutely right about all of these things, and none of what we have each said contradicts the other. The semantics of whether the DM "rolls" or uses passive is contextual.
If the guards Bob, Steve, George, and Joe are fighting the players, and Bob notices Steve's down in the corner where "nobody was", Bob's probably going to start actively looking for what took out Steve. Yes, it would take Bob's action to do so. It would also be an appropriate action for the NPC to take.
Yes, you can hide in the same spot over and over again if you'd like, but any creature that does become aware of your position (and has a mind to target you) will approach or attack that position. Snipers only nest when they know that the approach to their position is secure (clear view, allied line, traps, spotter, etc.). Otherwise, once your position is compromised (missed target, others spot you, etc.), you move to a new position.
Thanks for the Dragon Talk clip. I'll definitely listen to that when I have time!
This would still leave the PC fully exposed to any creature that has a high enough passive (or roll on active), and the position is exposed to everyone else. They may not know you are there, but (unless you move before their initiative comes up) that's where the enemy is going to think you are.
I would recommend the order of: fire -> hide -> move
This way you've taken your shot, hidden (to whatever degree you succeed), and are no longer located in the area that any non-engaged creature would make a beeline to.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I would even go so far as to suggest fire -> move -> hide. If you're hidden, you may or may not be able to move without exposing your position, depending on the situation.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
1) If the rogue is second level or higher then they have the cunning action ability to take several actions as a bonus action including hide.
2) If the cover is sufficient to block line of sight OR the character is a halfling and the cover is a creature a size larger than them OR the character is a wood elf and the cover is natural terrain that lightly obscures them THEN, in all of these situations, the character is permitted to make a stealth check to hide. If there is no cover and they are clearly visible then hiding is not possible.
3) On their turn a rogue can move. They also have a bonus action and action they may take. These can be done in any order.
If there is cover available, a rogue can move to the cover, they can use their bonus action to hide making a stealth check to see if they succeed against the target's passive perception and they can then use their attack action to use their crossbow with advantage on the attack roll from hiding against the target that has lost track of exactly what they are doing. This is perfectly legal as long as they have the bonus action to hide available and they succeed on the stealth check (this is why most rogues take expertise in stealth).
Firing the crossbow reveals their position and they are no longer hidden even if they move behind total cover. Their position is still known.
On the other hand, if the character takes the hide bonus action after shooting then they will remain hidden for the intervening turns until their turn comes up again unless opponents move to a position where they have a clear line of sight with no cover or concealment between them and the hidden character in which the character is no longer hidden since they can be clearly seen.
If that were literally the only thing happening, that'd be a fair argument, but that's rarely the case. You might know the rogue's behind that tree, but when you also have a skilled fighter next to you trying to stab you with a spear, sometimes the rogue's going to get away with shooting you while you're busy trying not to die.
This really has nothing to do with the monster being surprised by the fact that the rogue shot them from behind the tree; the problem is the monster can't defend against an attack they can't see.
Seems like a pretty basic thing to ask about, but I can't seem to find it laid out anywhere whether someone can attempt to hide behind 1/2 or 3/4 cover. Total concealment seems to be much more straightforward. This passage doesn't exactly address the issue. I guess in the end, it's up to the DM to decide whether the situation breaks line of sight.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I would consider what the cover is and whether it is possible to hide using that cover. That's why it's left a little ambiguous.
Hiding behind a 1/2 wall, such as a fallen wall or large fallen column, sure. You'd just have to lay down and crawl.
Hide behind a portcullis, it'd be sketchy but possible in some circumstances.
Hide behind a large, clear quartz crystal, sure you have full cover but the crystal is transparent so hiding is kind of silly.