Yes, the Ek version would likely be stronger. primarily, I am trying to figure out if now that shadowblade has been errata'd to not work with booming blade/green flame blade, if there's a way to swing the shadowblade twice and /still/ get a cantrip attack in with BB/GFB on a bladesinger. That requires using a physical weapon for the cantrip attack. TWF would be necessary to get a second swing in with the shadowblade since it can't be used when you cast the cantrip.
Swinging with the shortsword may or may not be worth it, depending on what else you have to do with your bonus action, but getting the Shadow blade in for another attack is definitely something worth looking into. As I said before, I do think that you should be able to do it, but there may be some DMs that rule otherwise just for spite.
The only reason you'd want to do anything with a shortsword is because you need to use a physical weapon to perform the melee cantrip. That's why I'm trying to figure out the action economy for using shadowblade, then using the shortsword for the cantrip, then BA with the shadowblade again.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Say you are a level 6 bladesinger wizard. We'll make you an elf, so you have a shortsword in one hand, and shadowblade in the other hand. RAW you cannot cast a melee cantrip with shadowblade. RAW, you can swing your shadowblade and cast a cantrip, replacing the second swing by using the shortsword in the other hand to apply the melee cantrip. Can you now, use a bonus action to swing the shadowblade again? RAW seems unclear because you've already swung both weapons, however, the /last/ weapon you swung was the shortsword, so the shadowblade would be different. The definition of different seems to be what's key here.
First lets get all the relevant parts of needed rules quoted:
Bladesinger extra attack:
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
You brandish the weapon used in the spell’s casting and make a melee attack with it against one creature within 5 feet of you.
Two weapon fighting bonus action:
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand.
So. Attack action, check. Attack with shortsword, check. Shadow blade in other hand, check.
So yes. All the requirements are met to cast GFB/BB with shortsword and attack with shadow blade as an action, then attack with shadow blade again as a bonus action.
I'm not convinced the conditions /are/ met because during the attack action both weapons are used. It's the different that is tossing me for a loop. The obvious intent is that I can't attack right-right and bonus action right again. I need to understand how the shadowblade in my right hand qualifies as DIFFERENT from when I used it to make the very first attack.
All of you are saying it should work. I understand that. I am not understanding how the qualifications are being met since I already used the shadowblade /and/ the shortsword in the attack part of the action. I just want to understand the /why/
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I'm not convinced the conditions /are/ met because during the attack action both weapons are used. It's the different that is tossing me for a loop. The obvious intent is that I can't attack right-right and bonus action right again. I need to understand how the shadowblade in my right hand qualifies as DIFFERENT from when I used it to make the very first attack.
All of you are saying it should work. I understand that. I am not understanding how the qualifications are being met since I already used the shadowblade /and/ the shortsword in the attack part of the action. I just want to understand the /why/
Can you maybe point out what language suggests to you that whichever attack you make with the Attack action you don’t use to trigger the bonus action should have any impact on Two Weapon Fighting?
I definitely understand your question here, but I do not see anything in the text that would lead to the conclusion you’re worried about. If you can point out specifically what you think MAY lead there, maybe others can more easily put your mind at ease.
I'm not convinced the conditions /are/ met because during the attack action both weapons are used. It's the different that is tossing me for a loop. The obvious intent is that I can't attack right-right and bonus action right again. I need to understand how the shadowblade in my right hand qualifies as DIFFERENT from when I used it to make the very first attack.
All of you are saying it should work. I understand that. I am not understanding how the qualifications are being met since I already used the shadowblade /and/ the shortsword in the attack part of the action. I just want to understand the /why/
Because two weapon fighting only cares about 1 triggering attack and never checks whether the weapon being used in BA has been used earlier in the turn. You attacked with a light melee weapon (shortsword), so you can attack with a different light melee weapon besides that one (shadow blade).
It is a standard right-left-right, and actually makes more sense than the right-right-left that you usually see in 5e.
I'm not convinced the conditions /are/ met because during the attack action both weapons are used. It's the different that is tossing me for a loop. The obvious intent is that I can't attack right-right and bonus action right again. I need to understand how the shadowblade in my right hand qualifies as DIFFERENT from when I used it to make the very first attack.
All of you are saying it should work. I understand that. I am not understanding how the qualifications are being met since I already used the shadowblade /and/ the shortsword in the attack part of the action. I just want to understand the /why/
Can you maybe point out what language suggests to you that whichever attack you make with the Attack action you don’t use to trigger the bonus action should have any impact on Two Weapon Fighting?
I definitely understand your question here, but I do not see anything in the text that would lead to the conclusion you’re worried about. If you can point out specifically what you think MAY lead there, maybe others can more easily put your mind at ease.
My understanding is that by different, it /means/ unused during the action phase. Or perhaps a better way to explain it is that it requires a weapon which was not used, aka different, than one used in the attack action.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I'm not convinced the conditions /are/ met because during the attack action both weapons are used. It's the different that is tossing me for a loop. The obvious intent is that I can't attack right-right and bonus action right again. I need to understand how the shadowblade in my right hand qualifies as DIFFERENT from when I used it to make the very first attack.
All of you are saying it should work. I understand that. I am not understanding how the qualifications are being met since I already used the shadowblade /and/ the shortsword in the attack part of the action. I just want to understand the /why/
Can you maybe point out what language suggests to you that whichever attack you make with the Attack action you don’t use to trigger the bonus action should have any impact on Two Weapon Fighting?
I definitely understand your question here, but I do not see anything in the text that would lead to the conclusion you’re worried about. If you can point out specifically what you think MAY lead there, maybe others can more easily put your mind at ease.
My understanding is that by different, it /means/ unused during the action phase.
The language is pretty clearly only concerned with a single attack, not the entire action: “When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand.”
DxJxC explained the relevant point, but I’ll restate it while I’m here. The trigger is not the entire Attack action but only one attack. The attack you make with your bonus action need be made only with a weapon that is different from the one used in the one attack that triggers the bonus action.
The text I’ve quoted very clearly is only concerned with two attacks: one made with your Attack action, and one made as a bonus action. There is no mention of any additional attacks, and the language simply doesn’t exist that would justify an interpretation of “different from any weapon used in any attack prior to the bony action.” There’s only one attack it needs to be different from. Other attacks are irrelevant, because the rule doesn’t discuss them at all.
I'm not convinced the conditions /are/ met because during the attack action both weapons are used. It's the different that is tossing me for a loop. The obvious intent is that I can't attack right-right and bonus action right again. I need to understand how the shadowblade in my right hand qualifies as DIFFERENT from when I used it to make the very first attack.
All of you are saying it should work. I understand that. I am not understanding how the qualifications are being met since I already used the shadowblade /and/ the shortsword in the attack part of the action. I just want to understand the /why/
Action- Attack1- Shadow Blade- Attack2 Shadow Blade- Bonus Action TWF Shortsword- standard and easy to comprehend.
In each of the scenarios after the first, you've triggered two weapon fighting by attacking with a weapon as part of the Attack Action and can make a bonus action attack with either weapon since either weapon could be in a different hand than a triggering attack. Basically, by attacking with each hand during the Attack Action, you've triggered a bonus action attack with both weapons. Since you only have one bonus action, you can only take one of those bonus actions. It wouldn't be any different than a Ranger that is two weapon fighting and also has a bonus action attack or a PAM monk that can bonus action attack with an unarmed martial arts strike or the butt end of the spear or quarterstaff.
Edit. Apparently I changed the wrong shortsword from the pasting.
Edit 2. Also, the extra attack doesn't say that the cantrip has to come second, just that the cantrip replaces one of the attacks. Attacking with the cantrip first should satisfy the DMs stating that the bonus action has to be with a weapon that is different from the first attack.
Nope, I wasn't planning to revisit this even though you "pre-refuted" my argument. Nothing you're saying really checks out to me, so I see little point. You're not able to explain it in terms I can understand it seems, so there's no point in going around in circles trying to get me to understand.
I don't know if you aren't understanding what I am saying or I'm not explaining it properly. TWF specifically says that you must use a DIFFERENT weapon for the BA attack. Since you used the shortsword for the cantrip and the shadowblade for the first swing in the attack action, how are either of them DIFFERENT weapons when you use either of them for the BA attack. Since we can't seem to communicate on this, I just saw no point to go farther.
At this point short of Crawford chiming in on the thread, I don't think I am going to see your point of view. I do appreciate the attempts though.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
It occurs to me that while BB/GFB lets you make an attack as part of the cast a spell action, the Bladesinger feature lets you cast a spell as part of the attack action. When you put them together, you can take the attack action, which allows you to cast a spell (BB/GFB), which allows you to make an attack. We have come full circle.
Nope, I wasn't planning to revisit this even though you "pre-refuted" my argument. Nothing you're saying really checks out to me, so I see little point. You're not able to explain it in terms I can understand it seems, so there's no point in going around in circles trying to get me to understand.
I don't know if you aren't understanding what I am saying or I'm not explaining it properly. TWF specifically says that you must use a DIFFERENT weapon for the BA attack. Since you used the shortsword for the cantrip and the shadowblade for the first swing in the attack action, how are either of them DIFFERENT weapons when you use either of them for the BA attack. Since we can't seem to communicate on this, I just saw no point to go farther.
At this point short of Crawford chiming in on the thread, I don't think I am going to see your point of view. I do appreciate the attempts though.
Again, nothing says the bonus action weapon need be different from all the weapons used in all other attacks. You’re literally just conjuring that out of thin air. It’s really unfair to expect other people to be able to communicate a counterpoint when your own point is founded on language that does not exist.
If you just attacked with the Shadowblade, then you would trigger a BA with the shortsword. If you just attacked with the shortsword, you would trigger a BA with the Shadowblade. When you attack with both, you trigger a BA with whatever you attack with first and the trigger doesn't disappear because you attack with the second weapon. However, attacking with the second weapon does trigger a BA for the first weapon, because it is different from that weapon. You now have two different triggers for a BA and can only choose one of them to make your BA attack. This is the same as if a monk wielding a spear or a quarterstaff with PAM attacked with the weapon. It would trigger a martial arts unarmed strike and it would trigger a PAM 1d4 attack with the other end of the weapon. Again, you can only choose one of those attacks to use.
A) YES. You can hold two one-handed weapons and choose which weapon to use with your Attack action. If you have the "Extra Attack" feature from your class you can even switch between attacks. Both of those attacks would use your modifier.
However, if you do not have the Extra Attack feature, you can only make one attack per turn, which means you choose which weapon you are using for that one attack. Whichever one of those attacks you decide to make would use your modifier.
2) NO. There is no such thing as "multiattack" for player characters in the 5th edition rules. Some monsters have multiattack, as it is a monster feature. Unless you are a wildshaped Druid or polymorphed character, you will very likely not have access to multiattack.
3) NO. The only thing that requires both weapons be light is Two Weapon Fighting, cited below. As long as both weapons can be wielded with one hand, you could wield them both, you just could not take advantage of either weapon for Two Weapon Fighting, which requires both be light melee weapons.
The only other way to use both weapons is from the effect of Two Weapon Fighting, which uses your bonus action. I know you're not interested in using your bonus action, but here's the rule for clarity:
When you take the Attack action and attack with a lightmelee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a differentlightmelee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
Hi, everybody! There is any official source about this? Like a book or something?
The quote box is taken from Chapter 9 of the Players handbook (combat) under Making an attack --> Melee attacks
In the same chapter under actions in combat ---> attack it says "With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack." so generally the attack action involves a single attack though for some classes this is superseeded by the extra attack feature so for example if you look in the PHB under the fighter class you will see "Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn."
The rules only say what you have not what you don't have, so while the DMG and monster manual include several creature that have the feature multiattack this does not occur for anty class features, race features or feats.
If there is anything else specific that you can not find in the rules let us know.
Does anything change if one or both weapons are not light?
Okay. I will quote the query that I'm interested from the original post. That is because I have a barbarian/fighter with pirate's background with originally a longsword (well, now a katana) and a pistol. I have the necesary class level for extra attack. Can I attack with one attack with one weapon and the next with the other (even if without any of the two weapons have the light propety) in the same turn? But, importantly, can I have one weapon in each hand?
I apologize for my bad English. If I find an official source on my side, I will comment here.
Under the Barbarian extra attack feature it says "Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn." It does not say the attacks have to be with the same weapon so yes you can use one attack with your katana and one with your pistol.
This answer in the sage advice compendium says that the two weapon fighting bonus doesn't apply if you use two or more weapons as part of extra attack reinforcing the fact that you can use two or more weapons when using extra attack.
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OK, thanks. Found it. Only 11 days old, so now I know why I did not know of this change.
Swinging with the shortsword may or may not be worth it, depending on what else you have to do with your bonus action, but getting the Shadow blade in for another attack is definitely something worth looking into. As I said before, I do think that you should be able to do it, but there may be some DMs that rule otherwise just for spite.
The only reason you'd want to do anything with a shortsword is because you need to use a physical weapon to perform the melee cantrip. That's why I'm trying to figure out the action economy for using shadowblade, then using the shortsword for the cantrip, then BA with the shadowblade again.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
First lets get all the relevant parts of needed rules quoted:
Bladesinger extra attack:
Booming blade/green-flame blade:
Two weapon fighting bonus action:
So. Attack action, check. Attack with shortsword, check. Shadow blade in other hand, check.
So yes. All the requirements are met to cast GFB/BB with shortsword and attack with shadow blade as an action, then attack with shadow blade again as a bonus action.
I'm not convinced the conditions /are/ met because during the attack action both weapons are used. It's the different that is tossing me for a loop. The obvious intent is that I can't attack right-right and bonus action right again. I need to understand how the shadowblade in my right hand qualifies as DIFFERENT from when I used it to make the very first attack.
All of you are saying it should work. I understand that. I am not understanding how the qualifications are being met since I already used the shadowblade /and/ the shortsword in the attack part of the action. I just want to understand the /why/
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Can you maybe point out what language suggests to you that whichever attack you make with the Attack action you don’t use to trigger the bonus action should have any impact on Two Weapon Fighting?
I definitely understand your question here, but I do not see anything in the text that would lead to the conclusion you’re worried about. If you can point out specifically what you think MAY lead there, maybe others can more easily put your mind at ease.
Because two weapon fighting only cares about 1 triggering attack and never checks whether the weapon being used in BA has been used earlier in the turn. You attacked with a light melee weapon (shortsword), so you can attack with a different light melee weapon besides that one (shadow blade).
It is a standard right-left-right, and actually makes more sense than the right-right-left that you usually see in 5e.
My understanding is that by different, it /means/ unused during the action phase. Or perhaps a better way to explain it is that it requires a weapon which was not used, aka different, than one used in the attack action.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
The language is pretty clearly only concerned with a single attack, not the entire action: “When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand.”
DxJxC explained the relevant point, but I’ll restate it while I’m here. The trigger is not the entire Attack action but only one attack. The attack you make with your bonus action need be made only with a weapon that is different from the one used in the one attack that triggers the bonus action.
The text I’ve quoted very clearly is only concerned with two attacks: one made with your Attack action, and one made as a bonus action. There is no mention of any additional attacks, and the language simply doesn’t exist that would justify an interpretation of “different from any weapon used in any attack prior to the bony action.” There’s only one attack it needs to be different from. Other attacks are irrelevant, because the rule doesn’t discuss them at all.
Action- Attack1- Shadow Blade- Attack2 Shadow Blade- Bonus Action TWF Shortsword- standard and easy to comprehend.
Action- Attack1- Shadow Blade- Attack2 Shortsword- Bonus Action TWF Shortsword
Action- Attack1- Shadow Blade- Attack2 Shortsword- Bonus Action TWF Shadowblade
Action- Attack1- Shadow Blade- Attack2 BB Shortsword- Bonus Action TWF Shortsword
Action- Attack1- Shadow Blade- Attack2 BB Shortsword- Bonus Action TWF Shadowblade
In each of the scenarios after the first, you've triggered two weapon fighting by attacking with a weapon as part of the Attack Action and can make a bonus action attack with either weapon since either weapon could be in a different hand than a triggering attack. Basically, by attacking with each hand during the Attack Action, you've triggered a bonus action attack with both weapons. Since you only have one bonus action, you can only take one of those bonus actions. It wouldn't be any different than a Ranger that is two weapon fighting and also has a bonus action attack or a PAM monk that can bonus action attack with an unarmed martial arts strike or the butt end of the spear or quarterstaff.
Edit. Apparently I changed the wrong shortsword from the pasting.
Edit 2. Also, the extra attack doesn't say that the cantrip has to come second, just that the cantrip replaces one of the attacks. Attacking with the cantrip first should satisfy the DMs stating that the bonus action has to be with a weapon that is different from the first attack.
Yeah, I was waiting to see if he would reply to my comment that pre-refuted his argument.
Err. No, you can't do this one.
Lol I edited too many shortswords on that.
Nope, I wasn't planning to revisit this even though you "pre-refuted" my argument. Nothing you're saying really checks out to me, so I see little point. You're not able to explain it in terms I can understand it seems, so there's no point in going around in circles trying to get me to understand.
I don't know if you aren't understanding what I am saying or I'm not explaining it properly. TWF specifically says that you must use a DIFFERENT weapon for the BA attack. Since you used the shortsword for the cantrip and the shadowblade for the first swing in the attack action, how are either of them DIFFERENT weapons when you use either of them for the BA attack. Since we can't seem to communicate on this, I just saw no point to go farther.
At this point short of Crawford chiming in on the thread, I don't think I am going to see your point of view. I do appreciate the attempts though.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
It occurs to me that while BB/GFB lets you make an attack as part of the cast a spell action, the Bladesinger feature lets you cast a spell as part of the attack action. When you put them together, you can take the attack action, which allows you to cast a spell (BB/GFB), which allows you to make an attack. We have come full circle.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Again, nothing says the bonus action weapon need be different from all the weapons used in all other attacks. You’re literally just conjuring that out of thin air. It’s really unfair to expect other people to be able to communicate a counterpoint when your own point is founded on language that does not exist.
If you just attacked with the Shadowblade, then you would trigger a BA with the shortsword. If you just attacked with the shortsword, you would trigger a BA with the Shadowblade. When you attack with both, you trigger a BA with whatever you attack with first and the trigger doesn't disappear because you attack with the second weapon. However, attacking with the second weapon does trigger a BA for the first weapon, because it is different from that weapon. You now have two different triggers for a BA and can only choose one of them to make your BA attack. This is the same as if a monk wielding a spear or a quarterstaff with PAM attacked with the weapon. It would trigger a martial arts unarmed strike and it would trigger a PAM 1d4 attack with the other end of the weapon. Again, you can only choose one of those attacks to use.
Hi, everybody! There is any official source about this? Like a book or something?
Which part?
The quote box is taken from Chapter 9 of the Players handbook (combat) under Making an attack --> Melee attacks
In the same chapter under actions in combat ---> attack it says "With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack." so generally the attack action involves a single attack though for some classes this is superseeded by the extra attack feature so for example if you look in the PHB under the fighter class you will see "Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn."
The rules only say what you have not what you don't have, so while the DMG and monster manual include several creature that have the feature multiattack this does not occur for anty class features, race features or feats.
If there is anything else specific that you can not find in the rules let us know.
Okay. I will quote the query that I'm interested from the original post. That is because I have a barbarian/fighter with pirate's background with originally a longsword (well, now a katana) and a pistol. I have the necesary class level for extra attack. Can I attack with one attack with one weapon and the next with the other (even if without any of the two weapons have the light propety) in the same turn? But, importantly, can I have one weapon in each hand?
I apologize for my bad English. If I find an official source on my side, I will comment here.
Under the Barbarian extra attack feature it says "Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn." It does not say the attacks have to be with the same weapon so yes you can use one attack with your katana and one with your pistol.
This answer in the sage advice compendium says that the two weapon fighting bonus doesn't apply if you use two or more weapons as part of extra attack reinforcing the fact that you can use two or more weapons when using extra attack.