I was wondering if clerics automatically know that creatures are undead. If not, I could see cleric players wasting a combat action by trying to turn something that cannot be turned. At the same time, I hate to think that higher powered undead such as vampires could not hide their undead nature.
If clerics had that ability it'd be listed in their class features. That's what spells like Detect Evil and Good and the Grave Domain's Eyes of the Grave feature are for.
Going by RAW rules knowledge checks are very expensive in terms of action economy, requiring a full action. Speak with your DM about it. A lot of DMs will allow very basic information if you have proficiency in the relevant skill. Someone who could use Turn Undead would likely know the general forms of undead that it might be used on.
Now if something is actively hiding its nature like a vampire might, yeah that's going to require a very high check of some kind or magic/abilities. But a reasonable DM would tell you that a skeleton is undead. Obviously there's some gray areas in between that would be up to your DM.
Awesome, thanks to both replies. I'm the DM in this case, and I agree: skeletons, zombies, etc. would likely be obvious to any cleric. Some rarer creatures, however, might not. And in the game I am currently running, some things are fiends and fey that have undead-like appearances but are not actually undead.
Going by RAW rules knowledge checks are very expensive in terms of action economy, requiring a full action. Speak with your DM about it. A lot of DMs will allow very basic information if you have proficiency in the relevant skill. Someone who could use Turn Undead would likely know the general forms of undead that it might be used on.
Now if something is actively hiding its nature like a vampire might, yeah that's going to require a very high check of some kind or magic/abilities. But a reasonable DM would tell you that a skeleton is undead. Obviously there's some gray areas in between that would be up to your DM.
Pretty much that right there. If you can Turn undead, you should know generally speaking, what it will work on. I wouldn't require any kind of check for many types of undead. If you do then you're going to end up with the cleric not knowing a zombie is undead when they roll a 1.
Vampires can pass as not undead and would require a power, spell, ability to detect if the vampire wanted to remain incognito.
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Going by RAW rules knowledge checks are very expensive in terms of action economy, requiring a full action. Speak with your DM about it. A lot of DMs will allow very basic information if you have proficiency in the relevant skill. Someone who could use Turn Undead would likely know the general forms of undead that it might be used on.
Now if something is actively hiding its nature like a vampire might, yeah that's going to require a very high check of some kind or magic/abilities. But a reasonable DM would tell you that a skeleton is undead. Obviously there's some gray areas in between that would be up to your DM.
Pretty much that right there. If you can Turn undead, you should know generally speaking, what it will work on. I wouldn't require any kind of check for many types of undead. If you do then you're going to end up with the cleric not knowing a zombie is undead when they roll a 1.
Vampires can pass as not undead and would require a power, spell, ability to detect if the vampire wanted to remain incognito.
OP did reply a few hours before you that the scenario was some fey and fiends that looked undead, but that aren't thus can't be turned. Obviously, the character would think that a creature that looks like a moving corpse is undead without a check, but that is actually the problem here.
So @ Jsteppern, the cleric doesn't necessarily know more about the creature's nature than its appearance implies. You might consider using passive investigation as an indicator of whether the cleric can tell something is off or needs to make a knowledge check. For undead and fiends, either arcana or religion checks would be appropriate for identifying them, fey would be arcana or nature (DC up to you, but I recommend 8+proficiency, possibly double prof mod if creature is especially rare for its CR). If they do use turn undead, just tell them it failed, it does not give an indicator of whether the creatures are valid targets.
Take a look at page 178 of PHB - under "Other Wisdom checks" you literally have the suggestion that DM might require a Wis ability check to determine whether a living or dead creature is undead, so the process is not automatic.
Medicine is WIS. You could use Medical knowledge to inform your check, though there's an argument for the DC on that being higher than Religion or Arcana--or for the roll being at Disadvantage if it's from afar.
Take a look at page 178 of PHB - under "Other Wisdom checks" you literally have the suggestion that DM might require a Wis ability check to determine whether a living or dead creature is undead, so the process is not automatic.
Actually, the fact that a DM might require a check means that the process is not necessarily automatic, not that it's never automatic.
Ability checks are used when there is a chance of both success and failure. So if there's any question, or a disguise, or anything like that, then a check could very well be appropriate. If, on the other hand, the corpse of the goblin you just killed jumps up and begins punching you, there really isn't much question. So while it's not always automatic, it's not never automatic, either.
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While it may be a knowledge check, my description of monsters usually make it obvious to the party when they encounter undeads, either by their state of putrefaction or insubstantiality.
This sounds like a great place for a Wisdom (Religion) ability check. Or if the DM wants to avoid a roll to keep things subtle, compare it against the cleric's passive Religion score. It seems like an excess of recalculation to figure passive religion using Wisdom instead of Intelligence just to see if the character notices a creature is undead, but if it served the story, then it might be worth doing.
Actually, the fact that a DM might require a check means that the process is not necessarily automatic, not that it's never automatic.
Ability checks are used when there is a chance of both success and failure. So if there's any question, or a disguise, or anything like that, then a check could very well be appropriate. If, on the other hand, the corpse of the goblin you just killed jumps up and begins punching you, there really isn't much question. So while it's not always automatic, it's not never automatic, either.
Barring special rules to the contrary, it's never automatic to realize the type of any creature you encounter, undead or not. That goblin corpse could be a plant or construct, for example. To Ashera's point, ability checks (which might be easy enough to pass automatically) could certainly give you salient details, like whether or not the corpse appears to be breathing, or assessing the body for visible injuries, or what have you, but actually determining type should never, ever be simply handed out for "free".
Actually, the fact that a DM might require a check means that the process is not necessarily automatic, not that it's never automatic.
Ability checks are used when there is a chance of both success and failure. So if there's any question, or a disguise, or anything like that, then a check could very well be appropriate. If, on the other hand, the corpse of the goblin you just killed jumps up and begins punching you, there really isn't much question. So while it's not always automatic, it's not never automatic, either.
Barring special rules to the contrary, it's never automatic to realize the type of any creature you encounter, undead or not. That goblin corpse could be a plant or construct, for example. To Ashera's point, ability checks (which might be easy enough to pass automatically) could certainly give you salient details, like whether or not the corpse appears to be breathing, or assessing the body for visible injuries, or what have you, but actually determining type should never, ever be simply handed out for "free".
No, I agree, I was just saying that there are cases in which it's going to be obvious. Like if you cast hold person on someone and they're paralyzed, then you can pretty safely say they're a Humanoid. My point was more that it's not necessarily a question with an absolute answer.
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Hi all,
I was wondering if clerics automatically know that creatures are undead. If not, I could see cleric players wasting a combat action by trying to turn something that cannot be turned. At the same time, I hate to think that higher powered undead such as vampires could not hide their undead nature.
Much thanks,
Johnathan
If clerics had that ability it'd be listed in their class features. That's what spells like Detect Evil and Good and the Grave Domain's Eyes of the Grave feature are for.
Going by RAW rules knowledge checks are very expensive in terms of action economy, requiring a full action. Speak with your DM about it. A lot of DMs will allow very basic information if you have proficiency in the relevant skill. Someone who could use Turn Undead would likely know the general forms of undead that it might be used on.
Now if something is actively hiding its nature like a vampire might, yeah that's going to require a very high check of some kind or magic/abilities. But a reasonable DM would tell you that a skeleton is undead. Obviously there's some gray areas in between that would be up to your DM.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Awesome, thanks to both replies. I'm the DM in this case, and I agree: skeletons, zombies, etc. would likely be obvious to any cleric. Some rarer creatures, however, might not. And in the game I am currently running, some things are fiends and fey that have undead-like appearances but are not actually undead.
Pretty much that right there. If you can Turn undead, you should know generally speaking, what it will work on. I wouldn't require any kind of check for many types of undead. If you do then you're going to end up with the cleric not knowing a zombie is undead when they roll a 1.
Vampires can pass as not undead and would require a power, spell, ability to detect if the vampire wanted to remain incognito.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
OP did reply a few hours before you that the scenario was some fey and fiends that looked undead, but that aren't thus can't be turned. Obviously, the character would think that a creature that looks like a moving corpse is undead without a check, but that is actually the problem here.
So @ Jsteppern, the cleric doesn't necessarily know more about the creature's nature than its appearance implies. You might consider using passive investigation as an indicator of whether the cleric can tell something is off or needs to make a knowledge check. For undead and fiends, either arcana or religion checks would be appropriate for identifying them, fey would be arcana or nature (DC up to you, but I recommend 8+proficiency, possibly double prof mod if creature is especially rare for its CR). If they do use turn undead, just tell them it failed, it does not give an indicator of whether the creatures are valid targets.
Thanks for the insight- this is great advice. I think I will try implementing your sessions at the next game
Take a look at page 178 of PHB - under "Other Wisdom checks" you literally have the suggestion that DM might require a Wis ability check to determine whether a living or dead creature is undead, so the process is not automatic.
How about a Medical check? seems logical to figure out if something is living or dead
Sure, if you're going to spend a minute or so to check out the body - probably not a viable option when the thing is shambling/running towards you.
Medicine is WIS. You could use Medical knowledge to inform your check, though there's an argument for the DC on that being higher than Religion or Arcana--or for the roll being at Disadvantage if it's from afar.
Actually, the fact that a DM might require a check means that the process is not necessarily automatic, not that it's never automatic.
Ability checks are used when there is a chance of both success and failure. So if there's any question, or a disguise, or anything like that, then a check could very well be appropriate. If, on the other hand, the corpse of the goblin you just killed jumps up and begins punching you, there really isn't much question. So while it's not always automatic, it's not never automatic, either.
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While it may be a knowledge check, my description of monsters usually make it obvious to the party when they encounter undeads, either by their state of putrefaction or insubstantiality.
This sounds like a great place for a Wisdom (Religion) ability check. Or if the DM wants to avoid a roll to keep things subtle, compare it against the cleric's passive Religion score. It seems like an excess of recalculation to figure passive religion using Wisdom instead of Intelligence just to see if the character notices a creature is undead, but if it served the story, then it might be worth doing.
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Barring special rules to the contrary, it's never automatic to realize the type of any creature you encounter, undead or not. That goblin corpse could be a plant or construct, for example. To Ashera's point, ability checks (which might be easy enough to pass automatically) could certainly give you salient details, like whether or not the corpse appears to be breathing, or assessing the body for visible injuries, or what have you, but actually determining type should never, ever be simply handed out for "free".
No, I agree, I was just saying that there are cases in which it's going to be obvious. Like if you cast hold person on someone and they're paralyzed, then you can pretty safely say they're a Humanoid. My point was more that it's not necessarily a question with an absolute answer.
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