In the offical release of the warforged race they can don armor. It says they do this by incorporating into their body for an hour. Does this mean that it's now officially part of their body? Thus making the armor no longer susceptible to heat metal?
I've tried googling the answer but only find answers that predate the officle release and only use the UA variants.
the D&D rules are designed to be simple to read, which paradoxically can sometimes cause confusion as they don't cover edge cases and details.
The golden rule is, "If it is a rule, the rulebook will tell you so" - this means that the rules don't infer meaning, so if the designers wanted warforged armor to be immune to any spells or effects, they would have added a line to the rules that specifically says so.
This seems pretty simple though - the rules for the warforged say nothing about their armor becoming immune to any effects, therefore it isn't.
That may seem pretty harsh on a warforged character in chainmail that has been affected by the heat metal however it's pretty brutal for any character, as the rules for getting into and out of armor state that it takes 5 minutes of time to remove heavy armor and 1 minute for light/medium armor. With the duration of heat metal only being 1 minute anyway, taking off armor isn't a defense against the spell anyway!
The best defense against Heat Metal has always been "hit the caster until he stops moving", which incidentally breaks his concentration. Preferably by your companions, since you'll be having disadvantage... >.>
the D&D rules are designed to be simple to read, which paradoxically can sometimes cause confusion as they don't cover edge cases and details.
The golden rule is, "If it is a rule, the rulebook will tell you so" - this means that the rules don't infer meaning, so if the designers wanted warforged armor to be immune to any spells or effects, they would have added a line to the rules that specifically says so.
This seems pretty simple though - the rules for the warforged say nothing about their armor becoming immune to any effects, therefore it isn't.
That may seem pretty harsh on a warforged character in chainmail that has been affected by the heat metal however it's pretty brutal for any character, as the rules for getting into and out of armor state that it takes 5 minutes of time to remove heavy armor and 1 minute for light/medium armor. With the duration of heat metal only being 1 minute anyway, taking off armor isn't a defense against the spell anyway!
Warforged: "You can don only armor with which you have proficiency. To don armor, you must incorporate it into your body over the course of 1 hour, during which you remain in contact with the armor. To doff armor, you must spend 1 hour removing it. You can rest while donning or doffing armor in this way."
Heat metal: "Choose a manufactured metal object, such as a metal weapon or a suit of heavy or medium metal armor, that you can see within range."
I think your position is arguable based on RAW.
Warforged "incorporate the armor into their body". Heat metal REQUIRES that the caster SEE the suit of metal armor. If the armor is "incorporated" then there it would be a DM call as to whether the armor is visible at all. It could easily be incorporated into the structure of the warforged and not be visible.
"Incorporate - take in or contain (something) as part of a whole; include."
The definition of incorporate is to include or contain as part of a whole. As such, it is pretty easy to interpret the warforged abiltiy as one which puts the armor INTO the structure of the warforged and it is not visible. One would think that if it was visible, then the warforged would just WEAR the armor. Mechanically you get the same effect except it takes a lot less time to put on or off and someone else can remove it.
Anyway, the bottom line would be to talk to your DM since RAW can easily be read in such a way that the warforged incorporating metal armor would not be vulnerable to heat metal.
Personally, I wouldn't allow heat metal against armor that a warforged character has integrated into itself, but I have yet to figure out whether that is RAW or a house rule :)
the D&D rules are designed to be simple to read, which paradoxically can sometimes cause confusion as they don't cover edge cases and details.
The golden rule is, "If it is a rule, the rulebook will tell you so" - this means that the rules don't infer meaning, so if the designers wanted warforged armor to be immune to any spells or effects, they would have added a line to the rules that specifically says so.
This seems pretty simple though - the rules for the warforged say nothing about their armor becoming immune to any effects, therefore it isn't.
That may seem pretty harsh on a warforged character in chainmail that has been affected by the heat metal however it's pretty brutal for any character, as the rules for getting into and out of armor state that it takes 5 minutes of time to remove heavy armor and 1 minute for light/medium armor. With the duration of heat metal only being 1 minute anyway, taking off armor isn't a defense against the spell anyway!
Warforged: "You can don only armor with which you have proficiency. To don armor, you must incorporate it into your body over the course of 1 hour, during which you remain in contact with the armor. To doff armor, you must spend 1 hour removing it. You can rest while donning or doffing armor in this way."
Heat metal: "Choose a manufactured metal object, such as a metal weapon or a suit of heavy or medium metal armor, that you can see within range."
I think your position is arguable based on RAW.
Warforged "incorporate the armor into their body". Heat metal REQUIRES that the caster SEE the suit of metal armor. If the armor is "incorporated" then there it would be a DM call as to whether the armor is visible at all. It could easily be incorporated into the structure of the warforged and not be visible.
"Incorporate - take in or contain (something) as part of a whole; include."
The definition of incorporate is to include or contain as part of a whole. As such, it is pretty easy to interpret the warforged abiltiy as one which puts the armor INTO the structure of the warforged and it is not visible. One would think that if it was visible, then the warforged would just WEAR the armor. Mechanically you get the same effect except it takes a lot less time to put on or off and someone else can remove it.
Anyway, the bottom line would be to talk to your DM since RAW can easily be read in such a way that the warforged incorporating metal armor would not be vulnerable to heat metal.
not necessarily. Think of the armor as being bolted on to the warforged. It’s incorporated into his overall design now, but isn’t inside him. It is on the outside, but he isnt wearing it.
homebrew and nothing to do with Warforged, but i allow characters to cut their way out of armor to get out of it faster than the 5 minutes...they can't put it back on without a properly equipped leatherworker repairing it though. It also assumes they have access to a knife or dagger....so when cutting armor off, required time is divided by 10 (so what took 5 minutes now takes 5 rounds)...and divide by 2 again if someone else is helping cut straps.
I use that rule for both Heat Metal and if they fall into water...keeps plate wearers from drowning.
the D&D rules are designed to be simple to read, which paradoxically can sometimes cause confusion as they don't cover edge cases and details.
The golden rule is, "If it is a rule, the rulebook will tell you so" - this means that the rules don't infer meaning, so if the designers wanted warforged armor to be immune to any spells or effects, they would have added a line to the rules that specifically says so.
This seems pretty simple though - the rules for the warforged say nothing about their armor becoming immune to any effects, therefore it isn't.
That may seem pretty harsh on a warforged character in chainmail that has been affected by the heat metal however it's pretty brutal for any character, as the rules for getting into and out of armor state that it takes 5 minutes of time to remove heavy armor and 1 minute for light/medium armor. With the duration of heat metal only being 1 minute anyway, taking off armor isn't a defense against the spell anyway!
Warforged: "You can don only armor with which you have proficiency. To don armor, you must incorporate it into your body over the course of 1 hour, during which you remain in contact with the armor. To doff armor, you must spend 1 hour removing it. You can rest while donning or doffing armor in this way."
Heat metal: "Choose a manufactured metal object, such as a metal weapon or a suit of heavy or medium metal armor, that you can see within range."
I think your position is arguable based on RAW.
Warforged "incorporate the armor into their body". Heat metal REQUIRES that the caster SEE the suit of metal armor. If the armor is "incorporated" then there it would be a DM call as to whether the armor is visible at all. It could easily be incorporated into the structure of the warforged and not be visible.
"Incorporate - take in or contain (something) as part of a whole; include."
The definition of incorporate is to include or contain as part of a whole. As such, it is pretty easy to interpret the warforged abiltiy as one which puts the armor INTO the structure of the warforged and it is not visible. One would think that if it was visible, then the warforged would just WEAR the armor. Mechanically you get the same effect except it takes a lot less time to put on or off and someone else can remove it.
Anyway, the bottom line would be to talk to your DM since RAW can easily be read in such a way that the warforged incorporating metal armor would not be vulnerable to heat metal.
not necessarily. Think of the armor as being bolted on to the warforged. It’s incorporated into his overall design now, but isn’t inside him. It is on the outside, but he isnt wearing it.
Sure. However, that is exactly why this is a DM decision and not something that is clearly spelled out in the rules. "Incorporated" could mean internally installed which is how I interpret it while you prefer to think of it as bolted on the outside. Personally, I don't see why a creature with two arms and legs who could presumably WEAR properly adjusted armor (if the rules didn't explicitly state otherwise) would instead choose to bolt it on the outside rather than incorporate it directly into its structure using the armor for reinforcement at critical locations for example.
I agree with the idea that it requires some interpretation. I disagree that internally incorporating the armor so that it is no longer on the outside would be the easiest way to provide useful protection. After all, it says you're using actual armor to do this, not bits of metal and wood to reinforce weak areas. That may not matter.
But, another nuance to consider is once the parts of the armor are incorporated whether those pieces become part of the warforged creature or are still discrete objects. Heat metal only targets objects, but warforged are creatures.
"Incorporated" is not a game term that is defined anywhere as having a game effect that is distinct from "worn", let alone one that would make an object now count as a creature. Armor is an object. Heat Metal targets metal objects. A DM is free to houserule the spell otherwise, but RAW, Heat Metal may target armor no matter the race of its owner.
“Incorporated” is also not a game term that is made distinct from “mixed” as in when eggs are incorporated into a cake batter, either. That is exactly why I said that it was a nuance that needs consideration. You may reasonably interpret it either way, and the rules provide no guidance. I’m not really sure what the correct answer is, but your argumentative tone makes me lean toward the opposite interpretation.
Is a metal replacement hip an incorporated part of a human creature or a distinct object? Both? Is a finger an object or part of a creature? If my finger counts as part of me as a creature, why shouldn’t integrated parts of a warforged count as parts of that creature?
“Incorporated” is also not a game term that is made distinct from “mixed” as in when eggs are incorporated into a cake batter, either. That is exactly why I said that it was a nuance that needs consideration. You may reasonably interpret it either way, and the rules provide no guidance. I’m not really sure what the correct answer is, but your argumentative tone makes me lean toward the opposite interpretation.
Is a metal replacement hip an incorporated part of a human creature or a distinct object? Both? Is a finger an object or part of a creature? If my finger counts as part of me as a creature, why shouldn’t integrated parts of a warforged count as parts of that creature?
With the “internal” version of integration, are you saying the war forged is physically expanding itself to surround the armor? Armor is typically bigger than the creature wearing it, so you are saying that the physical body of the war forged is expanding past the dimension of the armor...I don’t buy that
I believe that is what David42 implied in his reasoning. Whether an integral incorporated part of a creature is a distinct object or just part of the creature is the question I am asking. It is immaterial whether that part is internal (hence the finger example).
Wolf, I'm not saying that either take is more reasonable, just that nothing in the rules indicate that there was any new rule that warforged armor stop counting as an object. The only game effect described (to my knowledge, don't have the new book yet) is an increased amount of time to remove the armor. DMs can house rule additional effects, but it is not that Heat Metal has been left with an ambiguous application to Warforged armor, but rather that Heat Metal very clearly effects Warforged armor unless DMs care to create additional rules.
Unless a manufactured metal object ceases to be a manufactured metal object (presumably because it then becomes a part of the creature?), then it will continue to be a viable target for heat metal. And the fact that the warforged can de-integrate the armor later on and it goes back to being what it was before REALLY makes me feel like it never stops being its own object.
I think I am on the side that a warforged creature’s integrated armor is a legitimate target for heat metal as well. I also just think that it takes some interpretation and isn’t nearly obvious. As Stormknight said in the first reply, nothing about the integration process says it changes the properties or behavior of the armor.
Honestly, the way I see the Warforged "Integrated Armor" thing is essentially how the Beast Wars Transformers looked in Season 2 after they came across the Transmetal where they appear as Robots/Machines in their respective Animal Forms as opposed to their appearance in Season 1 where they looked more Animal when in their Animal Forms. Essentially, the Armor would be integrated into their form, but it's still recognizable as Armor, so if (example) the Warforged integrated Chainmail into their form, then I would imagine that as opposed to it being a chain shirt that would normally worn over their padded clothing, that the Warforged Chainmail would be in "sections" with part of their body overlapping the ends of the Chainmail rings to help hold the Chainmail in place. I would include a picture of some Chainmail Arm Bracers to further illustrate what I mean, but I don't know if it would be allowed or not.
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In the offical release of the warforged race they can don armor. It says they do this by incorporating into their body for an hour. Does this mean that it's now officially part of their body? Thus making the armor no longer susceptible to heat metal?
I've tried googling the answer but only find answers that predate the officle release and only use the UA variants.
Hi there,
the D&D rules are designed to be simple to read, which paradoxically can sometimes cause confusion as they don't cover edge cases and details.
The golden rule is, "If it is a rule, the rulebook will tell you so" - this means that the rules don't infer meaning, so if the designers wanted warforged armor to be immune to any spells or effects, they would have added a line to the rules that specifically says so.
This seems pretty simple though - the rules for the warforged say nothing about their armor becoming immune to any effects, therefore it isn't.
That may seem pretty harsh on a warforged character in chainmail that has been affected by the heat metal however it's pretty brutal for any character, as the rules for getting into and out of armor state that it takes 5 minutes of time to remove heavy armor and 1 minute for light/medium armor. With the duration of heat metal only being 1 minute anyway, taking off armor isn't a defense against the spell anyway!
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There is an armor that can be doffed in an action in xanathars
That would be Cast-Off Armor!
I expect it would be up to a DM whether that functioned for Warforged in their game world.
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Sounds like ablative armor for Warforged to me! :D
The best defense against Heat Metal has always been "hit the caster until he stops moving", which incidentally breaks his concentration. Preferably by your companions, since you'll be having disadvantage... >.>
Warforged: "You can don only armor with which you have proficiency. To don armor, you must incorporate it into your body over the course of 1 hour, during which you remain in contact with the armor. To doff armor, you must spend 1 hour removing it. You can rest while donning or doffing armor in this way."
Heat metal: "Choose a manufactured metal object, such as a metal weapon or a suit of heavy or medium metal armor, that you can see within range."
I think your position is arguable based on RAW.
Warforged "incorporate the armor into their body". Heat metal REQUIRES that the caster SEE the suit of metal armor. If the armor is "incorporated" then there it would be a DM call as to whether the armor is visible at all. It could easily be incorporated into the structure of the warforged and not be visible.
"Incorporate - take in or contain (something) as part of a whole; include."
The definition of incorporate is to include or contain as part of a whole. As such, it is pretty easy to interpret the warforged abiltiy as one which puts the armor INTO the structure of the warforged and it is not visible. One would think that if it was visible, then the warforged would just WEAR the armor. Mechanically you get the same effect except it takes a lot less time to put on or off and someone else can remove it.
Anyway, the bottom line would be to talk to your DM since RAW can easily be read in such a way that the warforged incorporating metal armor would not be vulnerable to heat metal.
Personally, I wouldn't allow heat metal against armor that a warforged character has integrated into itself, but I have yet to figure out whether that is RAW or a house rule :)
"Not all those who wander are lost"
not necessarily. Think of the armor as being bolted on to the warforged. It’s incorporated into his overall design now, but isn’t inside him. It is on the outside, but he isnt wearing it.
Warforge rules override this. They install the armor, they don’t wear it.
homebrew and nothing to do with Warforged, but i allow characters to cut their way out of armor to get out of it faster than the 5 minutes...they can't put it back on without a properly equipped leatherworker repairing it though. It also assumes they have access to a knife or dagger....so when cutting armor off, required time is divided by 10 (so what took 5 minutes now takes 5 rounds)...and divide by 2 again if someone else is helping cut straps.
I use that rule for both Heat Metal and if they fall into water...keeps plate wearers from drowning.
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Sure. However, that is exactly why this is a DM decision and not something that is clearly spelled out in the rules. "Incorporated" could mean internally installed which is how I interpret it while you prefer to think of it as bolted on the outside. Personally, I don't see why a creature with two arms and legs who could presumably WEAR properly adjusted armor (if the rules didn't explicitly state otherwise) would instead choose to bolt it on the outside rather than incorporate it directly into its structure using the armor for reinforcement at critical locations for example.
I agree with the idea that it requires some interpretation. I disagree that internally incorporating the armor so that it is no longer on the outside would be the easiest way to provide useful protection. After all, it says you're using actual armor to do this, not bits of metal and wood to reinforce weak areas. That may not matter.
But, another nuance to consider is once the parts of the armor are incorporated whether those pieces become part of the warforged creature or are still discrete objects. Heat metal only targets objects, but warforged are creatures.
"Incorporated" is not a game term that is defined anywhere as having a game effect that is distinct from "worn", let alone one that would make an object now count as a creature. Armor is an object. Heat Metal targets metal objects. A DM is free to houserule the spell otherwise, but RAW, Heat Metal may target armor no matter the race of its owner.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
“Incorporated” is also not a game term that is made distinct from “mixed” as in when eggs are incorporated into a cake batter, either. That is exactly why I said that it was a nuance that needs consideration. You may reasonably interpret it either way, and the rules provide no guidance. I’m not really sure what the correct answer is, but your argumentative tone makes me lean toward the opposite interpretation.
Is a metal replacement hip an incorporated part of a human creature or a distinct object? Both? Is a finger an object or part of a creature? If my finger counts as part of me as a creature, why shouldn’t integrated parts of a warforged count as parts of that creature?
With the “internal” version of integration, are you saying the war forged is physically expanding itself to surround the armor? Armor is typically bigger than the creature wearing it, so you are saying that the physical body of the war forged is expanding past the dimension of the armor...I don’t buy that
I believe that is what David42 implied in his reasoning. Whether an integral incorporated part of a creature is a distinct object or just part of the creature is the question I am asking. It is immaterial whether that part is internal (hence the finger example).
Wolf, I'm not saying that either take is more reasonable, just that nothing in the rules indicate that there was any new rule that warforged armor stop counting as an object. The only game effect described (to my knowledge, don't have the new book yet) is an increased amount of time to remove the armor. DMs can house rule additional effects, but it is not that Heat Metal has been left with an ambiguous application to Warforged armor, but rather that Heat Metal very clearly effects Warforged armor unless DMs care to create additional rules.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Unless a manufactured metal object ceases to be a manufactured metal object (presumably because it then becomes a part of the creature?), then it will continue to be a viable target for heat metal. And the fact that the warforged can de-integrate the armor later on and it goes back to being what it was before REALLY makes me feel like it never stops being its own object.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I think I am on the side that a warforged creature’s integrated armor is a legitimate target for heat metal as well. I also just think that it takes some interpretation and isn’t nearly obvious. As Stormknight said in the first reply, nothing about the integration process says it changes the properties or behavior of the armor.
Honestly, the way I see the Warforged "Integrated Armor" thing is essentially how the Beast Wars Transformers looked in Season 2 after they came across the Transmetal where they appear as Robots/Machines in their respective Animal Forms as opposed to their appearance in Season 1 where they looked more Animal when in their Animal Forms. Essentially, the Armor would be integrated into their form, but it's still recognizable as Armor, so if (example) the Warforged integrated Chainmail into their form, then I would imagine that as opposed to it being a chain shirt that would normally worn over their padded clothing, that the Warforged Chainmail would be in "sections" with part of their body overlapping the ends of the Chainmail rings to help hold the Chainmail in place. I would include a picture of some Chainmail Arm Bracers to further illustrate what I mean, but I don't know if it would be allowed or not.