In this case we would be treating the caster as hostile and the shifter/changling as PC (as most post put it as the PC cast on PC), I ask this as according to the dnd wiki they are shapechangers yet it seems like there is debate online about this. Personally as one are descendants of lycanthropy (unofficial) which are immune and the other can outright change i believe they are immune. Would love to hear someone points both for and against this for both (mainly the shifter as there is less discussion there)
PC changelings and shifters are both humanoids and not shapechangers. Shifters are not descendants of lycanthropes, and I don't think they've ever been shapechangers. Changelings probably should be classified as shapechangers (NPC changelings are), but currently by RAW they are not. There may eventually be an erratum about that (I remember Keith Baker suggesting that there should be), but that's the situation as it stands right now.
I would definitely say that Changelings should be immune if they choose to be to things like Polymorph, and even if they choose to be affected their Intelligence, behaviors, and other relevant knowledge and abilities should be unaffected by the spell.
Not so much with Shifters. I'd think they should get a saving throw to maintain their Intelligence and etc, but they should not be immune to the spell otherwise. Simply put, they are not actually shapeshifters. Each individual has some kind of poorly explained connection to... spirits? Of a particular type, and they develop a number of physical traits that correspond to that type of animal spirit, which they can for short durations exaggerate.
Mechanically, I think there is no answer to your question beyond "it was a design decision" that facilitates that most spells work mostly the same on most PCs (though there are a few exceptions).
So what's the difference between an NPC Changing and a PC changeling? Why is one considered whilst the other not when they are the same race?
The difference is that one is an NPC and the other is a PC. NPCs aren't built according to normal character creation rules. "Monsters" have a variety of possible creature types, PCs are always humanoids unless something specifically says otherwise (like the centaur's fey nature).
Again, I think it's fair to suspect that the intent is that changelings are shapechangers, and I would certainly rule that they are in my own game. If RAI is that they be shapechangers, my guess as to why they don't have a race feature making that clear the way centaurs do is design oversight.
It what little I know about changlings and shifters, I think they are shapechangers. I’d have to really dig into what a shapechanger is, because I’d include Druids, and maybe even beast barbs or lycanthrope hunters. At the same time, how much digging is too much? Do all these things not walk and quack like ducks?
I don’t remember if my posts here are from before or after Rising from the Last War was published, but if they were from after, I was just wrong. Changelings have a feature that is literally named “Shapechanger,” so they are unambiguously shapechangers.
[...]Shifters are not descendants of lycanthropes [...]
Shifters have always been canon descended from lycans until they were added to 5e. And now it's been downgraded to only being implied that they are. The race page for them now says it's rumored they are, and flavor text on that page describes a character drawing on the power of his lycan ancestors. It's enough that I give them advantage on saves for things that cant affect shapechanger. Those effects are so rare it doesn't affect balance, it's much weaker than fey ancestry or gnome cunning and its thematic.
Of course if you as a DM decide your shifters aren't descended from lycans or that they're too diluted to gain that resistance that's fine too. But I do think this is an option worth considering.
I seem to remember Changeling not having the "shapechanger" trait in the printings available when this thread was relevant. I seem to remember thinking 'without the shapechanger trait or type, they're not shapechangers,' just like Saga says above. I think that the changeling was updated some time ago (with the release of E:RftLW? Was there some other Eberron update?), and with new information should come new analysis.
But there's no need to imply bad intent on anyone. Shapechanger is not a race and no one, i think even then, claimed so. What I thought is that it is a type tag or a trait that at the time neither of these races had. Under the current printing, Changeling does and Shifter does not.
You are pointing to other people's posts that are 2 years old and written concerning likely different rules than are currently available. That is not helpful without that context. You ascribe thoughts to people who couldn't have possibly crossed their mind because they were working with different information. Not knowing that the rule changed could explain your mistake, but your doubling down on it seems just a completely callous or non-understanding way to engage people who haven't though about this topic since the rule has changed.
Does it say in the stat block that they are immune? You know like it says in the stat block that elves are immune to sleep spells? No? There you go then, you have your answer. If you are the game DM and want to homebrew it at your game then go ahead, you are totally allowed to do that. Completely up to you. If you aren’t then it’s not up to you.
Does it say in the stat block that they are immune? You know like it says in the stat block that elves are immune to sleep spells? No? There you go then, you have your answer. If you are the game DM and want to homebrew it at your game then go ahead, you are totally allowed to do that. Completely up to you. If you aren’t then it’s not up to you.
Umm, the Changeling PC race from MotM has the racial trait "Shapechanger"
The text of the polymorph spell says explicitly "The spell has no effect on a shapechanger or a creature with 0 hit points."
So, Changelings (either PC or NPC) are immune to polymorph now. (The now is important since when the thread was first started the rules may well have been different).
Does it say in the stat block that they are immune? You know like it says in the stat block that elves are immune to sleep spells? No? There you go then, you have your answer. If you are the game DM and want to homebrew it at your game then go ahead, you are totally allowed to do that. Completely up to you. If you aren’t then it’s not up to you.
It says in the spell description that shapechangers are immune. Changelings have the trait 'shapechanger.' This is not difficult math.
I can't believe I'm saying this but: Kotath is right. Due to the trait Shapechanger, changelings still possess the "shapechanger" keyword, thus are immune to polymorph.
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
No, that’s not their creature type, thats just a racial trait. Their creature type is…
Creature Type
You are a Fey.
Thats like saying an Elf is a trance creature because they have the trance racial trait. Or an Aasimar is a celestial because they have the celestial resistance racial trait.
A creature type and a racial trait are not remotely the same thing.
But that's the thing isn't it? Traits, races, types, and tags are all different things, some of which PCs get and some of which are treated differently for monsters. And a couple of people here are conflating them a bit.
I can see that you’re not too concerned about whether a thing is a trait or a tag. Or even whether a thing is a ‘shapechanger’ or a ‘shapeshifter.’ And that’s really what I’m pointing out. PCs don’t have tags so it is important to understand that tags aren’t the only way something can be given a property.
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In this case we would be treating the caster as hostile and the shifter/changling as PC (as most post put it as the PC cast on PC), I ask this as according to the dnd wiki they are shapechangers yet it seems like there is debate online about this. Personally as one are descendants of lycanthropy (unofficial) which are immune and the other can outright change i believe they are immune. Would love to hear someone points both for and against this for both (mainly the shifter as there is less discussion there)
Edit 1:
Forgot to post reference mentioned in post: https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Category:5e_Shapechangers
PC changelings and shifters are both humanoids and not shapechangers. Shifters are not descendants of lycanthropes, and I don't think they've ever been shapechangers. Changelings probably should be classified as shapechangers (NPC changelings are), but currently by RAW they are not. There may eventually be an erratum about that (I remember Keith Baker suggesting that there should be), but that's the situation as it stands right now.
I would definitely say that Changelings should be immune if they choose to be to things like Polymorph, and even if they choose to be affected their Intelligence, behaviors, and other relevant knowledge and abilities should be unaffected by the spell.
Not so much with Shifters. I'd think they should get a saving throw to maintain their Intelligence and etc, but they should not be immune to the spell otherwise. Simply put, they are not actually shapeshifters. Each individual has some kind of poorly explained connection to... spirits? Of a particular type, and they develop a number of physical traits that correspond to that type of animal spirit, which they can for short durations exaggerate.
So what's the difference between an NPC Changing and a PC changeling? Why is one considered whilst the other not when they are the same race?
Mechanically, I think there is no answer to your question beyond "it was a design decision" that facilitates that most spells work mostly the same on most PCs (though there are a few exceptions).
The difference is that one is an NPC and the other is a PC. NPCs aren't built according to normal character creation rules. "Monsters" have a variety of possible creature types, PCs are always humanoids unless something specifically says otherwise (like the centaur's fey nature).
Again, I think it's fair to suspect that the intent is that changelings are shapechangers, and I would certainly rule that they are in my own game. If RAI is that they be shapechangers, my guess as to why they don't have a race feature making that clear the way centaurs do is design oversight.
It what little I know about changlings and shifters, I think they are shapechangers. I’d have to really dig into what a shapechanger is, because I’d include Druids, and maybe even beast barbs or lycanthrope hunters. At the same time, how much digging is too much? Do all these things not walk and quack like ducks?
I don’t remember if my posts here are from before or after Rising from the Last War was published, but if they were from after, I was just wrong. Changelings have a feature that is literally named “Shapechanger,” so they are unambiguously shapechangers.
Shifters have always been canon descended from lycans until they were added to 5e. And now it's been downgraded to only being implied that they are. The race page for them now says it's rumored they are, and flavor text on that page describes a character drawing on the power of his lycan ancestors. It's enough that I give them advantage on saves for things that cant affect shapechanger. Those effects are so rare it doesn't affect balance, it's much weaker than fey ancestry or gnome cunning and its thematic.
Of course if you as a DM decide your shifters aren't descended from lycans or that they're too diluted to gain that resistance that's fine too. But I do think this is an option worth considering.
Life is the game.
Changlings do have the Shapechanger thing by RAW! PC and NPC
Monsters of the multiverse may change something up because tey are now Fey creatures and can change the size too.
Because they are considerd Shapechangers they CAN´T be Polymorphed
What Moonstrucker said.
You can't go by Unearthed Arcana, at least not once things get published. Published over-rides Arcana.
I seem to remember Changeling not having the "shapechanger" trait in the printings available when this thread was relevant. I seem to remember thinking 'without the shapechanger trait or type, they're not shapechangers,' just like Saga says above. I think that the changeling was updated some time ago (with the release of E:RftLW? Was there some other Eberron update?), and with new information should come new analysis.
But there's no need to imply bad intent on anyone. Shapechanger is not a race and no one, i think even then, claimed so. What I thought is that it is a type tag or a trait that at the time neither of these races had. Under the current printing, Changeling does and Shifter does not.
You are pointing to other people's posts that are 2 years old and written concerning likely different rules than are currently available. That is not helpful without that context. You ascribe thoughts to people who couldn't have possibly crossed their mind because they were working with different information. Not knowing that the rule changed could explain your mistake, but your doubling down on it seems just a completely callous or non-understanding way to engage people who haven't though about this topic since the rule has changed.
Does it say in the stat block that they are immune? You know like it says in the stat block that elves are immune to sleep spells? No? There you go then, you have your answer. If you are the game DM and want to homebrew it at your game then go ahead, you are totally allowed to do that. Completely up to you. If you aren’t then it’s not up to you.
Umm, the Changeling PC race from MotM has the racial trait "Shapechanger"
The text of the polymorph spell says explicitly "The spell has no effect on a shapechanger or a creature with 0 hit points."
So, Changelings (either PC or NPC) are immune to polymorph now. (The now is important since when the thread was first started the rules may well have been different).
I can't believe I'm saying this but: Kotath is right. Due to the trait Shapechanger, changelings still possess the "shapechanger" keyword, thus are immune to polymorph.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
No, that’s not their creature type, thats just a racial trait. Their creature type is…
Creature Type
You are a Fey.
Thats like saying an Elf is a trance creature because they have the trance racial trait. Or an Aasimar is a celestial because they have the celestial resistance racial trait.
A creature type and a racial trait are not remotely the same thing.
There is the Shifter -
Shifter Traits
As a shifter, you have the following racial traits.
Creature Type
You are a Humanoid.
And then there are actual shapeshifter creature types
But that's the thing isn't it? Traits, races, types, and tags are all different things, some of which PCs get and some of which are treated differently for monsters. And a couple of people here are conflating them a bit.
I can see that you’re not too concerned about whether a thing is a trait or a tag. Or even whether a thing is a ‘shapechanger’ or a ‘shapeshifter.’ And that’s really what I’m pointing out. PCs don’t have tags so it is important to understand that tags aren’t the only way something can be given a property.