So... what memories does the polymorphed creature have? If it is a polymorphed wizard, do they not at least retain the memory of how to cast the spells they know?
Knowledge of how to cast spells and the ability to cast spells are not the same thing. A polymorphed Wizard may well remember the fireball spell in terms of what it does, how it works, what it requires, they might know how to cast it (i.e- the words, gestures etc.), but they cannot cast it. The ability to cast spells is simply gone. They effectively have the same knowledge as anyone else who read a book about the fireball spell, but lacks the ability to cast it.
The key point is that simple knowledge (an understanding of something, but not necessarily the means to do it) is never defined in the rules, so it's not a game statistic that can be replaced by another creature's game statistics. However, the value of knowledge retained in this way is up to your DM; it allows a transformed creature to recognise things for what they are, but it doesn't grant them any explicit mechanical benefit for doing so, only what the DM decides is appropriate (if anything).
Do they lose all knowledge of languages?
Strictly speaking yes, as languages are game statistics (as with other proficiencies), though I've never encountered a group that would actually run it exactly this way. More often they'll rule that you still understand the language, but can't speak it, otherwise you get bogged down in how to communicate with the transformed player and that's just a headache you don't need.
In theory you can still communicate via simple gestures to draw attention, or taking an action you want them to replicate (e.g- hunker down to Hide) but in practice that's going to get annoying real fast so it's understandable groups don't do it.
The key thing is to remember that the transformed creature's ability to convey information to the group is limited, which is why things like speak with animals are useful.
Let's start with simpler tasks. Which player race explicitly says the race has the ability to open doors? There is no open door proficiency. Since it is not explicitly listed, does this mean no PC (or any other creature, for that matter) can open doors?
Opening doors is given as an example of the free object interaction that all creatures have access to; whether or not the DM deems a creature to be capable of doing it is another matter.
A creature retaining its knowledge would know what a door is, and how to open it, but you've still got to be able to reach the handle and operate it somehow, which is going to be a lot easier for some creatures than others.
So the same principle applies; knowing how to open a door is not the same thing as being able to do it.
Spells, at least for wizards, are learned. If they retain knowledge, they would retain that knowledge.
But the Spellcasting feature is not, because it is explicitly and unambiguously replaced by the creature's game statistics, and that's the feature that gives Wizards the ability to actually cast spells. Knowing how a spell works and being able to actually cast it are not the same thing.
If you no longer have the version of the Spellcasting feature that granted you the ability to cast the spell, then you no longer have the ability to cast the spell. Period. There is nothing ambiguous about this. A Wizard transformed by the polymorph spell cannot cast spells.
Spells for clerics and druids are from faith, which they presumably retain (arguably even more an aspect of personality than general knowledge).
This doesn't follow; the only thing described as personality by the game are Personality Traits, everything else is description. The character's height, weight, skin colour, eye colour, hair colour etc. are all changed, so why not their faith? The only explicit exception from that section is the alignment.
I doubt many DMs would force you to lose your faith, but having faith in a deity and gaining divine powers from it are clearly not the same thing, otherwise everybody would be able to cast spirit guardians. There is clearly something more required, and that something is the Spellcasting feature, which is a game statistic and the game statistics are replaced.
Does a polymorphed paladin lose the benefits of their oath?
Yes, because the oath is a class feature and therefore part of their game statistics, and their game statistics are replaced.
What about the expectations? Are they free from all oath restrictions, simply because they are in a different body?
Strictly speaking yes, because the oath is part of their game statistics and their game statistics were replaced.
However it's up to the DM how to interpret any breach of a paladin's oath while transformed, and whether it could apply retroactively when they change back; can a Paladin of the ancients be said to have upheld their oath if they took the opportunity to desecrate druidic shrines while they were an animal? The animal might not have been subject to the oath at the time, but the paladin who returns when it changes back might still have to deal with the consequences.
Although it's worth keeping in mind that upholding and breaking oaths are not defined game mechanics; there is no rule that says what happens if you break your oath, it's entirely up to your DM. It's a common misconception (sadly reinforced by Baldur's Gate 3) that you become an Oathbreaker, but that's not what the Oathbreaker sub-class is for, nor do the rules tell you to do it. Your DM decides what breaking an oath means.
Now there are other limitations in there, of course. Even if the wizard in Rothe form remembers their spells, they would lose the level of fine manipulation required for Somatic or use of most Material components and likely even verbal components would be lost, but if in, say, the form of a raven, they could well still have at least verbal and material options.
The Wizard might retain knowledge of their spells, but they no longer have their spellbook, they no longer have their prepared spells or the ability to cast them. The only spell that a deep rothé can cast is dancing lights, thus it is the only spell that a Wizard transformed into a deep rothé can cast as well.
They might remember the spells they had, but they do not possess any means by which to cast them, the components are the least of their troubles; it's more like their access to the Weave is severed except for what the deep rothé is naturally (innately) capable of.
And a paladin's oath would presumably still be in place. Why would it not be
Because it's a class feature and therefore part of their game statistics, which are replaced by the spell. The spell literally tells you to replace game statistics, so that's what you have to do. There is no clever workaround to this except to learn a much higher level spell that lets you keep some of your statistics, it's called shapechange.
From what I understand, you're claiming that a character's spellcasting ability is inherently tied to their (now lost) physical form.
You lose the Spellcasting feature because the spell says you replace your game statistics with those of the creature you are turned into, and Spellcasting is part of your game statistics, so it's replaced along with everything else.
Since when is Spellcasting considered a statistic? It is considered a class feature and your chosen race does not limit you in a choice of your class (at least in the majority of cases).
I wouldn't try to rationalise at as only lacking access to components because that only invites players to try to argue around being transformed; if a sorcerer's casting survives transformation, then why not their Metamagic? With Metamagic they could use Subtle Spell to ignore components and cast anyway… it's basically opening yourself up to problems you don't need.
First of all, such sorcerer would still need to provide material components since their pouch or focus are also most likely unusable. Also, I just found out that there is precedence in druid's beast shape ability. The lvl 18 improvement that allows spellcasting while wildshaped words it in a way that connects this new ability to being able to provide verbal and somatic components of the spells while in beast form.
Now about whether a character is capable of understanding spellcasting with their new stat block
There's a difference between understanding spellcasting, and being able to cast spells; any creature can attempt an Arcana check to understand spellcasting, and if we assume a creature retains its memory when transformed it should still remember everything it knows about how to cast spells, how they work etc., it just can't do it. Any character can potentially learn these things, a commoner could dedicate their life to learning about casting magic, but knowing the details doesn't mean they can actually do it.
Having a spellcasting feature is the actual ability to cast spells and use magic. There are a handful of creatures available to polymorph that have some kind of spellcasting ability, you mentioned the cranium rat but these don't have spellcasting by default, however there is one I can remember off-hand which is the deep rothé as it can cast dancing lights. But that's all it can cast, because your knowledge of how you used to be able to cast fireball doesn't do anything for you in deep rothé form.
There are obviously a lot more options via true polymorph, but the same rules apply; you lose your own Spellcasting feature and replace it with that of the creature (if it has one). So you can only cast what it can cast – you might know about what you used to be able to cast, but you can't do it unless the new creature can.
When I wrote "understanding spellcasting", I meant whether the character retains the ability to comprehend the arcane/divine enough to still use it, regardless of other factors limiting the use of spells.
I specifically picked cranium rats because they were the only example I have seen where there's a visible stat treshold where the creature has not enough inteligence to use its spellcasting ability despite having one. The other example You have provided clearly shows that the treshold for having comprehension required to cast certain spell, if there is a specific one, would depend on the spell's level. That does align with the basic rules mentioning that cantrips are far more simple than other spells. However, a greater amount of species would be needed to draw a final conclusion.
Since when is Spellcasting considered a statistic? It is considered a class feature and your chosen race does not limit you in a choice of your class (at least in the majority of cases).
Your game statistics are everything mechanical about your character including your ability scores, class, race, background etc. When you are polymorphed everything mechanical about your character is changed for those of the creature you are turning into. The spell is literally telling you this, otherwise what do you think the point of the polymorph spell is?
It doesn't say "you become another creature but get to pick and choose whatever features you'd like to keep". If you turn into a sheep you are now a sheep, that's just what the spell does.
First of all, such sorcerer would still need to provide material components since their pouch or focus are also most likely unusable. Also, I just found out that there is precedence in druid's beast shape ability. The lvl 18 improvement that allows spellcasting while wildshaped words it in a way that connects this new ability to being able to provide verbal and somatic components of the spells while in beast form.
The Archdruid feature is an 18th-level feature that explicitly allows you to do this, and only when wild-shaping (which already has a bunch of other exceptions, since it doesn't fully replace your character's game statistics). This thread is about the polymorph spell which does not function in the same way – Wild Shape replaces only certain parts of your game statistics, polymorph replaces everything with only a couple of exceptions.
And that's an 18th-level feature that only Druids get, it's not a feature that everyone gets to have because they want it. Casting spells while transformed is a high level feature in 5th edition, accessible only to 17th-level or higher characters via Archdruid Wild Shape or shapechange. If you want to cast spells while transformed before that point you need to either transform into something with its own (and only its own) spellcasting ability, or you need to find some other way to do it like a magic item and a lenient DM.
When I wrote "understanding spellcasting", I meant whether the character retains the ability to comprehend the arcane/divine enough to still use it, regardless of other factors limiting the use of spells.
Then no, they don't "understand spellcasting", because that's set out in the Spellcasting feature which they no longer have after being polymorphed. It really cannot be made any simpler than this.
They might still remember what spellcasting is, and how it's done etc., but they are not able to do it.
I specifically picked cranium rats because they were the only example I have seen where there's a visible stat treshold where the creature has not enough inteligence to use its spellcasting ability despite having one.
A cranium rat has neither high Intelligence nor spellcasting, though it does have an Intelligence high enough that some beast spells won't work on it, but there are other beasts that that applies to (an ape has a even higher intelligence).
Intelligence doesn't determine whether you can or can't cast spells; you could roll a Wizard with an Intelligence of 3 if you really wanted to (or you were absurdly unlucky), and they'd still be able to cast spells because they have the Spellcasting feature. They'd be absolutely terrible at it thanks to a -4 modifier, but they can still do it, even though they're stupider than many animals.
The other example You have provided clearly shows that the treshold for having comprehension required to cast certain spell, if there is a specific one, would depend on the spell's level.
No it doesn't. Deep rothé can cast dancing lights because their monster stat block (their game statistics) say so. They have the Innate Spellcasting feature, therefore they can do some innate spellcasting (and only the innate spellcasting it says they can). That's it.
If you don't like how the spell works then fine, don't use it. But it's very clear in what it does and how it operates, and you're very, very unlikely to find a DM willing to let you use it as if it were an early level version of shapechange (a 9th-level spell alongside others such as wish, arguably the most powerful spell in the entire game).
It says you use the creature's game statistics so you use the creature's game statistics; only your alignment and personality remain from your original character's game statistics. That means everything else mechanical is gone; their class, their race, their background, their feats etc. etc. There are no further exceptions.
Knowledge isn't a game statistic because it's not part of the mechanics of the game; characters and creatures can know things, but knowing something is not a game statistic. Knowing about spells does not enable you to cast them, because what enables you to cast them is a Spellcasting feature that tells you you can do it.
There is no universe in which not having something means you have that thing; you lose your spellcasting, so you can't cast spells. It is that simple.
Since when is Spellcasting considered a statistic? It is considered a class feature and your chosen race does not limit you in a choice of your class (at least in the majority of cases).
Spellcasting is a class feature which makes up part of your game statistics like AC, HP, your Class and all associated features. Your spell slot (class table) is all part of your statistics (or stat block, if you will), and gets replaced.
I think this one is kinda clear. There are a handful of game features that turn you into another creature. Each of them tells you what you get to keep. Polymorph is probably the most restrictive: you get to do what the beast can do. None of those options can cast spells.
Since when is Spellcasting considered a statistic? It is considered a class feature and your chosen race does not limit you in a choice of your class (at least in the majority of cases).
Your game statistics are everything mechanical about your character including your ability scores, class, race, background etc. When you are polymorphed everything mechanical about your character is changed for those of the creature you are turning into. The spell is literally telling you this, otherwise what do you think the point of the polymorph spell is?
It doesn't say "you become another creature but get to pick and choose whatever features you'd like to keep". If you turn into a sheep you are now a sheep, that's just what the spell does.
BUT you are a sheep with the alignment and personality of the person you were before. Which is where the argument 'memories are retained' comes from. And for a class which casts based on knowledge (wizard) or knows how to do things (skills, any class), wouldn't at least the knowledge still be there? The ability to apply it, usually not, but at least the knowledge?
Edit: If the premise that training is included in 'game statistics,' then why is a separate paragraph needed specifically to say "The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech?"
I believe that’s what Haravikk has been saying all along. Knowing is not the same as being able to do. You may know you are a spellcaster but being able to cast spells when polymorphed is not available.
Not just know you are a spellcaster. He is saying that even above and beyond losing the ability to cast by way of not being able to fill the component aspects, that you lose spellcasting entirely, despite it being a function of class, NOT race, i.e. not linked to the caster's body. Set aside even Wizards, for the moment. Why would a cleric's god give up in them simply because they were in a different body?
I don't understand what the problem is here? The polymorph spell tells you to replace your game statistics with those of the creature you are turning into, except for alignment and personality. Those are the only exceptions.
Your game statistics includes ability scores, class features, racial traits, your background, any feats you've gained etc. etc., basically everything mechanical about your character. If something is a class feature, you no longer have it as a polymorphed creature. Spellcasting is a class feature, ergo you are no longer a spellcaster while transformed (unless the creature provides its own form of spellcasting, but this is separate from the feature you had).
What your character knows is not a game statistic, your character can know all sorts of things, but what a character knows has no mechanical benefit beyond being able to say "hey, I know what that is!" To be a spellcaster and actually able to cast spells you must have the Spellcasting feature (or an equivalent feature like Innate Spellcasting or Pact Magic), simply knowing about spells isn't enough.
Any commoner or Barbarian can read a book about magic and learn how spells work, what components and gestures are required etc., but that does not make them a spellcaster. Only being an appropriate class or taking an appropriate feat or magic item gives you the ability to actually cast spells, and while polymorphed you do not have access to these.
Why would a paladin's oath suddenly have zero weight, even though an oath is about as much an aspect of personality as it gets?
The oath class feature is a class feature, it's replaced because the spell says it's replaced. You can't just decide that all of your class features are part of your personality so you can gain all of the benefits of transforming with none of the drawbacks.
"Personality" is never really defined in the game, nor the spell; strictly speaking the only thing "personality" related in your game statistics are your personality traits (under description), though I expect the intention is more broadly meaning "how you would behave" or "who you are as a person". If you were law-abiding and kind heareted prior to being transformed, you would be a law-abiding and kind hearted spider or whatever, but this is really just telling you your character should keep behaving as they would. You get to be a weasel, but don't have to act only as an actual weasel would.
As for the narrative reason why the oath feature no longer applies, that's entirely up to you; the important part is that spells, channel divinity, special features etc. granted by your oath are no longer available to you. If you want to continue respecting nature, or being vengeful or whatever your oath demands as an animal, you are free to do that – minus the special powers the oath gave you to help you do that.
Put another way; while the oath feature is not available to you while transformed, the reasons you swore the oath in the first place, your reasons for adhering to its tenets etc. all remain, because these are not class features or game statistics, they are part of who your character is, not what they are (because what you are is no longer a human Paladin, but is now a sheep, frog, quipper or whatever).
Or yet another way; an oath isn't your personality, an oath is something you swear because of your personality. You might swear the Oath of the Ancients because you love nature, or your home forest. You might swear the Oath of Vengeance because you are driven by revenge etc. In these cases your personality is "loves nature" or "wants revenge", the oath is just a class feature you took to reflect that, and which a transformed creature receives no benefits from. You should still adhere to it to some degree because if your personality is retained then you still love nature, or want revenge, but that's just informing your actions, you gain no mechanic benefit from it until you turn back.
Since when is Spellcasting considered a statistic? It is considered a class feature and your chosen race does not limit you in a choice of your class (at least in the majority of cases).
Your game statistics are everything mechanical about your character including your ability scores, class, race, background etc. When you are polymorphed everything mechanical about your character is changed for those of the creature you are turning into. The spell is literally telling you this, otherwise what do you think the point of the polymorph spell is?
It doesn't say "you become another creature but get to pick and choose whatever features you'd like to keep". If you turn into a sheep you are now a sheep, that's just what the spell does.
BUT you are a sheep with the alignment and personality of the person you were before. Which is where the argument 'memories are retained' comes from. And for a class which casts based on knowledge (wizard) or knows how to do things (skills, any class), wouldn't at least the knowledge still be there? The ability to apply it, usually not, but at least the knowledge?
Edit: If the premise that training is included in 'game statistics,' then why is a separate paragraph needed specifically to say "The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech?"
I believe that’s what Haravikk has been saying all along. Knowing is not the same as being able to do. You may know you are a spellcaster but being able to cast spells when polymorphed is not available.
Not just know you are a spellcaster. He is saying that even above and beyond losing the ability to cast by way of not being able to fill the component aspects, that you lose spellcasting entirely, despite it being a function of class, NOT race, i.e. not linked to the caster's body. Set aside even Wizards, for the moment. Why would a cleric's god give up in them simply because they were in a different body? Why would a paladin's oath suddenly have zero weight, even though an oath is about as much an aspect of personality as it gets?
Or why would Divine Soul Sorcerer suddenly lose access to their soul?
For now I conclude that polymorph limits the target's spellcasting in the following ways:
1. They lack the mental capabilities required to cast anything more complex than a cantrip.
2. They cannot bring out enough finesse to provide somatic nor verbal components.
3. They have a hard time providing material components and then a hard time holding onto them.
Not just know you are a spellcaster. He is saying that even above and beyond losing the ability to cast by way of not being able to fill the component aspects, that you lose spellcasting entirely, despite it being a function of class, NOT race, i.e. not linked to the caster's body. Set aside even Wizards, for the moment. Why would a cleric's god give up in them simply because they were in a different body?
Your game statistics includes ability scores, class features, racial traits, your background, any feats you've gained etc. etc., basically everything mechanical about your character. If something is a class feature, you no longer have it as a polymorphed creature. Spellcasting is a class feature, ergo you are no longer a spellcaster while transformed (unless the creature provides its own form of spellcasting, but this is separate from the feature you had).
Why would a paladin's oath suddenly have zero weight, even though an oath is about as much an aspect of personality as it gets?
Put another way; while the oath feature is not available to you while transformed, the reasons you swore the oath in the first place, your reasons for adhering to its tenets etc. all remain, because these are not class features or game statistics, they are part of who your character is, not what they are (because what you are is no longer a human Paladin, but is now a sheep, frog, quipper or whatever).
So is the character's background a game statistic or is it not? Unless you're going to tell me that palladin's background is somehow separate from the reasons behind swearing their oath.
Also, that cleric question from Kotath gave me an idea. Is a polymorphed cleric capable of calling divine intervention while polymorphed? Well, this does not require hands but requires the cleric to describe the problem. Oh wait, they're talking to a god. Gods speak all languages.
So... what memories does the polymorphed creature have? If it is a polymorphed wizard, do they not at least retain the memory of how to cast the spells they know?
Do they lose all knowledge of languages?
Let's start with simpler tasks. Which player race explicitly says the race has the ability to open doors? There is no open door proficiency. Since it is not explicitly listed, does this mean no PC (or any other creature, for that matter) can open doors?
Spells, at least for wizards, are learned. If they retain knowledge, they would retain that knowledge. Spells for clerics and druids are from faith, which they presumably retain (arguably even more an aspect of personality than general knowledge). Does a polymorphed paladin lose the benefits of their oath? What about the expectations? Are they free from all oath restrictions, simply because they are in a different body?
Now there are other limitations in there, of course. Even if the wizard in Rothe form remembers their spells, they would lose the level of fine manipulation required for Somatic or use of most Material components and likely even verbal components would be lost, but if in, say, the form of a raven, they could well still have at least verbal and material options.
And a paladin's oath would presumably still be in place. Why would it not be, other than 'Because spell wording says no one can open doors, since no one explicitly has that as a listed ability, polymorphed or not?'
What memories are retained is a DM call on how they want to run polymorph.
RAW, a polymorphed character retains: "The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality."
It only retains alignment and personality. Some folks argue that personality must include memories but, in my opinion, whether a person is mean or nice doesn't necessarily require remembering why they became that way.
The definition of "personality" is:
- the combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual's distinctive character.
- qualities that make someone interesting or popular.
- a characteristic way of thinking, feeling, and behaving.
None of these definitions necessarily imply the retention of knowledge and information when personality is retained. Someone who has amnesia could retain the same personality even if they can't remember anything.
Anyway, this is why the amount of information retained by a polymorphed creature is a DM call depending on how they want to run it.
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In addition, the intelligence stat in D&D represents "Intelligence measures mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason." ... mental acuity, recall and the ability to reason. Most beasts have an intelligence of 3 or lower. This gives them very limited abilities to think, recall and reason. Would a creature be capable of even understanding what a spell is with an intelligence of 3? Even if a DM allows the creature to retain some of its memories as part of its personality ... with an intelligence of 3, the creature would likely be incapable of properly recalling or processing those memories that were formulated with a much higher level of intelligence.
Either way, this is all very firmly in the category of ask your DM as to what a polymorphed creature is capable of.
Some DMs might allow a polymorphed creature to make an arcana check, the creature would not have proficiency unless the beast stat block contained the proficiency and the creature would use the intelligence modifier of the beast in the check. Personally, I would rule that the beast is incapable of understanding the nature of magic and wouldn't be able to succeed at the arcana check.
Finally, in terms of casting spells ... the rules explicitly state that a polymorphed creature is not capable of it ...
"The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech."
Unfortunately, this sentence can be parsed in multiple ways ...
1) Actions are limited by the nature of its new form.
AND
It can't speak, cast spells or take any other action that requires hands or speech.
or
2) It can't speak, cast spells or take any other action that requires hands or speech BECAUSE its actions are limited by the nature of its new form. Thus, if the form is capable of speech or has hands, then the creature may be capable of such tasks.
Personally, I think (1) is the intended interpretation. Even if a creature is polymorphed into a giant ape, it still can't talk or wield weapons even though it may have a vocal chords and hands. However, it could do things like climb which other beast forms might be unable to do. However, again that is a DM call as to how they want to run polymorph.
So is the character's background a game statistic or is it not? Unless you're going to tell me that palladin's background is somehow separate from the reasons behind swearing their oath.
Game statistics are anything that describes the mechanics of your character; so background features are game statistics, the actual narrative you attach to that background is not.
I really don't know how to make this any clearer; everything mechanical about your character (ability scores and the rules that tell you how your character specific features work) is replaced with those of the creature you are transformed into. There is no loophole to cheat your way out of that.
If you are a lawful good Oath of the Ancients Paladin Tiefling Sailor who gets turned into a sheep, then you are now a lawful good sheep and nothing more. You might remember being all of those other things, recognise your friends, your paladin order, remember the tenets of your oath etc., but that is all – you know them, but you do not gain any mechanical benefit from remember something.
Also, that cleric question from Kotath gave me an idea. Is a polymorphed cleric capable of calling divine intervention while polymorphed?
No, because Divine Intervention is a class feature which is part of your game statistics which are replaced.
Seriously, I do not know how to say this any more clearly; nothing special that your character can do survives being polymorphed. It doesn't matter whether narratively it's tied to your "soul" or your "personality" or whatever you want it to be; if it's a mechanical feature (game statistic) it is gone. It is that simple.
You might still be who you are, but you are no longer what you were. And no, you can't just decide that "who" you are is a Paladin with all of their powers intact, because those are what you were, not who. Who is your morals, your allegiances, your principles etc., ideas and ideals that confer no mechanical benefit. Anything that's a class feature is gone, and there is no loophole to circumvent that for this particular spell.
I'm really running out of patience here; if a player kept fishing this hard to cheat their way around a spell while I was DMing, I would ask them to leave the table and kill off their character, because I've wasted over an hour at least on trying to explain this, not to mention the time wasted for others. Being polymorphed comes with trade-offs; if you don't like that, then don't use polymorph.
I want to give the benefit of the doubt here, but that has limits, and I've reached mine, which is why I'm unsubscribing from the thread. Please read what has been said, but most importantly accept the fact that there is no loophole to be found here – the spell does what it says it does.
If a polymorph into a hydra and get me party members to constantly cut of my heads, would I be able to cast another spell for each new head I gained?
But .. hydras in general lack the basic requirements for spellcasting: Hands to weave around, vocal cords for mumbling arcane syllables. If you were to play a bard, and you polymorphed into an Ettin - maybe you'd be able to use Bardic Inspiration twice in a round. Except, of course, you still have only one bonus action.
But at least there would be some kinda sense to it - each head could make an encouraging little rhyme, independently.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
So is the character's background a game statistic or is it not? Unless you're going to tell me that palladin's background is somehow separate from the reasons behind swearing their oath.
Game statistics are anything that describes the mechanics of your character; so background features are game statistics, the actual narrative you attach to that background is not.
I really don't know how to make this any clearer; everything mechanical about your character (ability scores and the rules that tell you how your character specific features work) is replaced with those of the creature you are transformed into. There is no loophole to cheat your way out of that.
If you are a lawful good Oath of the Ancients Paladin Tiefling Sailor who gets turned into a sheep, then you are now a lawful good sheep and nothing more. You might remember being all of those other things, recognise your friends, your paladin order, remember the tenets of your oath etc., but that is all – you know them, but you do not gain any mechanical benefit from remember something.
Also, that cleric question from Kotath gave me an idea. Is a polymorphed cleric capable of calling divine intervention while polymorphed?
No, because Divine Intervention is a class feature which is part of your game statistics which are replaced.
Seriously, I do not know how to say this any more clearly; nothing special that your character can do survives being polymorphed. It doesn't matter whether narratively it's tied to your "soul" or your "personality" or whatever you want it to be; if it's a mechanical feature (game statistic) it is gone. It is that simple.
You might still be who you are, but you are no longer what you were. And no, you can't just decide that "who" you are is a Paladin with all of their powers intact, because those are what you were, not who. Who is your morals, your allegiances, your principles etc., ideas and ideals that confer no mechanical benefit. Anything that's a class feature is gone, and there is no loophole to circumvent that for this particular spell.
I'm really running out of patience here; if a player kept fishing this hard to cheat their way around a spell while I was DMing, I would ask them to leave the table and kill off their character, because I've wasted over an hour at least on trying to explain this, not to mention the time wasted for others. Being polymorphed comes with trade-offs; if you don't like that, then don't use polymorph.
I want to give the benefit of the doubt here, but that has limits, and I've reached mine, which is why I'm unsubscribing from the thread. Please read what has been said, but most importantly accept the fact that there is no loophole to be found here – the spell does what it says it does.
Divine intervention is actually invoked. Was thinking more on less conscious aspects. But the ability to open d
So... what memories does the polymorphed creature have? If it is a polymorphed wizard, do they not at least retain the memory of how to cast the spells they know?
Do they lose all knowledge of languages?
Let's start with simpler tasks. Which player race explicitly says the race has the ability to open doors? There is no open door proficiency. Since it is not explicitly listed, does this mean no PC (or any other creature, for that matter) can open doors?
Spells, at least for wizards, are learned. If they retain knowledge, they would retain that knowledge. Spells for clerics and druids are from faith, which they presumably retain (arguably even more an aspect of personality than general knowledge). Does a polymorphed paladin lose the benefits of their oath? What about the expectations? Are they free from all oath restrictions, simply because they are in a different body?
Now there are other limitations in there, of course. Even if the wizard in Rothe form remembers their spells, they would lose the level of fine manipulation required for Somatic or use of most Material components and likely even verbal components would be lost, but if in, say, the form of a raven, they could well still have at least verbal and material options.
And a paladin's oath would presumably still be in place. Why would it not be, other than 'Because spell wording says no one can open doors, since no one explicitly has that as a listed ability, polymorphed or not?'
What memories are retained is a DM call on how they want to run polymorph.
RAW, a polymorphed character retains: "The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality."
It only retains alignment and personality. Some folks argue that personality must include memories but, in my opinion, whether a person is mean or nice doesn't necessarily require remembering why they became that way.
The definition of "personality" is:
- the combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual's distinctive character.
- qualities that make someone interesting or popular.
- a characteristic way of thinking, feeling, and behaving.
None of these definitions necessarily imply the retention of knowledge and information when personality is retained. Someone who has amnesia could retain the same personality even if they can't remember anything.
Anyway, this is why the amount of information retained by a polymorphed creature is a DM call depending on how they want to run it.
----
In addition, the intelligence stat in D&D represents "Intelligence measures mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason." ... mental acuity, recall and the ability to reason. Most beasts have an intelligence of 3 or lower. This gives them very limited abilities to think, recall and reason. Would a creature be capable of even understanding what a spell is with an intelligence of 3? Even if a DM allows the creature to retain some of its memories as part of its personality ... with an intelligence of 3, the creature would likely be incapable of properly recalling or processing those memories that were formulated with a much higher level of intelligence.
Either way, this is all very firmly in the category of ask your DM as to what a polymorphed creature is capable of.
Some DMs might allow a polymorphed creature to make an arcana check, the creature would not have proficiency unless the beast stat block contained the proficiency and the creature would use the intelligence modifier of the beast in the check. Personally, I would rule that the beast is incapable of understanding the nature of magic and wouldn't be able to succeed at the arcana check.
Finally, in terms of casting spells ... the rules explicitly state that a polymorphed creature is not capable of it ...
"The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech."
Unfortunately, this sentence can be parsed in multiple ways ...
1) Actions are limited by the nature of its new form.
AND
It can't speak, cast spells or take any other action that requires hands or speech.
or
2) It can't speak, cast spells or take any other action that requires hands or speech BECAUSE its actions are limited by the nature of its new form. Thus, if the form is capable of speech or has hands, then the creature may be capable of such tasks.
Personally, I think (1) is the intended interpretation. Even if a creature is polymorphed into a giant ape, it still can't talk or wield weapons even though it may have a vocal chords and hands. However, it could do things like climb which other beast forms might be unable to do. However, again that is a DM call as to how they want to run polymorph.
Evidence that memory is retained and not considered part of 'statistics:'
Nowhere is the ability to remember things cited as a racial or even class ability. Even animals can remember things and nothing in the rules says otherwise. Social species are social and being social species means being able to remember who is part of your pack and even relatively non-social species usually are social at least with respect to mating and child rearing. You have to go way down the chain to find exceptions.
It is specifically cited as an aspect of the Intelligence stat which I quoted:
"Intelligence measures mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason."
Intelligence directly affects accuracy of recall. A 3 intelligence beast doesn't have the memory abilities of a 10 intelligence humanoid. The intelligence scale isn't linear. However, this is why the functioning of polymorph is a DM call. The polymorphed creature may have little ability to recall their past life, it may be foggy, vague or irrelevant. All we know from the rules is that intelligence represents accuracy of recall or memory and that a beast typically has a much lower intelligence.
The ability to speak or do anything that requires hands is specifically enumerated, which would not be needed if language and knowledge of things you might want to manipulate are lost. I would argue though that, conversely, you do not necessarily pick up the languages of whatever species you become. If you are now a sheep, you would not automatically know what any given bleat means. Again, languages are cultural, not racial.
If a language is in the beast's stat block, you know it if you are polymorphed into that creature. The rules explicitly state that all of the stat block features replace the character features. The only thing retained is "alignment and personality". I'd suggest that the replacement of character knowledge and skills by the knowledge and skills of the beast they polymorph into could represent the suppresion or removal of the character memories but that is completely open to interpretation. The rules only state that the character's abilities are replaced by the stat block including skills and knowledge like languages.
Building on my last point, the spell implies that, regardless of new species, you literally cannot speak at all. So if now a dog, you cannot even bark, if a sheep, you cannot even bleat, etc. Not sure that was intended and seems very heavy handed, regardless.
Lol. Speech implies communication not making noise. I don't know where you'd get the idea that beasts would lose the ability to make noise unless you equate every sound a creature can make with speech.
You argue that memories are not part of personality, but what of faith? Is living by a code or an oath not part of personality? If memories are not retained, how do you remember the tenets you live by? Again, even most animals learn and learning requires memory.
This is getting metaphysical. However, faith doesn't necessarily rely on knowing exactly what your tenets are and choosing each action you take to be in line with a set of intellectual beliefs. I prefer to think of faith as more fundamental, an implicit knowledge of right and wrong, what to do and what not to do. A creature doesn't need to think, "I shouldn't kill that person walking down the street because it is wrong" they just don't kill them because it never enters their mind because it is just wrong.
However, we are talking about D&D magic and the polymorph spell ... it is quite possible for a magic spell to completely replace the character with another. The spell could have said that the character retains their memory ... however, then there would be the issue that the character doesn't retain their skills and knowledge. A polymorphed character can't understand the languages they knew since they are not on the beast stat block. They don't have the skills or knowledge they once had, eg. insight, investigation, perception, athletics, knowledge of tools, stealth - unless something happens to be on the beast stat block. I think the fact that the polymorphed creature LOSES access to all knowledge of language and skills that they normally have is actually a good indicator that memory is not functionally retained.
Spell power. Is this, at 4th, intended to be more powerful than Feeblemind, at 8th? Note that with Feeblemind, the victim still remembers friends and (already known) foes.
Lol what? Feeblemind allows a saving once every throw every 30 days. Feeblemind doesn't need concentration. Feeblemind sets intelligence and charisma to 1.
Polymorph lasts at most an hour and requires concentration. I'd also argue that Polymorph is actually more powerful if the affected creature retains the ability to reason, recall, formulate plans and act ... you can then replace your front line fighter with a brand new T-rex without any concerns, they act tactically, attack the correct targets, run over to protect the spellcaster if they are in trouble, communicate by making sounds or scratching lines on the ground. In my opinion, a polymorphed creature is not capable of any of those actions that require memory or reasoning as long as their intelligence is limited. You also run into the situation where a polymorphed enemy target will immediately try to commit suicide in order to end the polymorph spell since if they retain memory and reasoning ability to do so and know they would take little damage as a result.
And the lower limit to intelligence to become a Wizard is still 3. There is no intelligence requirement specified in the Spellcasting ability at all.
5e doesn't have any specific limits if using rolled stats - it is up to the DM and the game and WotC doesn't want to tell folks how to play.
The rules DO suggest a minimum of 8 however. Under the customizing ability scores rule in the PHB it states "You can’t have a score lower than 8." That only applies to point buy or standard array but the rules make it pretty clear that the suggestion is that a stat should have a minimum value of 8 for a PC. This edition of D&D isn't as stat restrictive as previous versions. So again, play how you like, but it would take a pretty exceptional backstory in one of my games for a wizard (or any character for that matter) with an intelligence of 3 to make sense. A character with an intelligence of 3 would have significant difficulty adventuring or interacting with other characters. They might not even be able to open a door for example. Lighting a fire or preparing food would likely be beyond them. Maintaining weapons and armor wouldn't work either. However, perhaps we have a different view on what intelligence represents in D&D.
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Knowledge of how to cast spells and the ability to cast spells are not the same thing. A polymorphed Wizard may well remember the fireball spell in terms of what it does, how it works, what it requires, they might know how to cast it (i.e- the words, gestures etc.), but they cannot cast it. The ability to cast spells is simply gone. They effectively have the same knowledge as anyone else who read a book about the fireball spell, but lacks the ability to cast it.
The key point is that simple knowledge (an understanding of something, but not necessarily the means to do it) is never defined in the rules, so it's not a game statistic that can be replaced by another creature's game statistics. However, the value of knowledge retained in this way is up to your DM; it allows a transformed creature to recognise things for what they are, but it doesn't grant them any explicit mechanical benefit for doing so, only what the DM decides is appropriate (if anything).
Strictly speaking yes, as languages are game statistics (as with other proficiencies), though I've never encountered a group that would actually run it exactly this way. More often they'll rule that you still understand the language, but can't speak it, otherwise you get bogged down in how to communicate with the transformed player and that's just a headache you don't need.
In theory you can still communicate via simple gestures to draw attention, or taking an action you want them to replicate (e.g- hunker down to Hide) but in practice that's going to get annoying real fast so it's understandable groups don't do it.
The key thing is to remember that the transformed creature's ability to convey information to the group is limited, which is why things like speak with animals are useful.
Opening doors is given as an example of the free object interaction that all creatures have access to; whether or not the DM deems a creature to be capable of doing it is another matter.
A creature retaining its knowledge would know what a door is, and how to open it, but you've still got to be able to reach the handle and operate it somehow, which is going to be a lot easier for some creatures than others.
So the same principle applies; knowing how to open a door is not the same thing as being able to do it.
But the Spellcasting feature is not, because it is explicitly and unambiguously replaced by the creature's game statistics, and that's the feature that gives Wizards the ability to actually cast spells. Knowing how a spell works and being able to actually cast it are not the same thing.
If you no longer have the version of the Spellcasting feature that granted you the ability to cast the spell, then you no longer have the ability to cast the spell. Period. There is nothing ambiguous about this. A Wizard transformed by the polymorph spell cannot cast spells.
This doesn't follow; the only thing described as personality by the game are Personality Traits, everything else is description. The character's height, weight, skin colour, eye colour, hair colour etc. are all changed, so why not their faith? The only explicit exception from that section is the alignment.
I doubt many DMs would force you to lose your faith, but having faith in a deity and gaining divine powers from it are clearly not the same thing, otherwise everybody would be able to cast spirit guardians. There is clearly something more required, and that something is the Spellcasting feature, which is a game statistic and the game statistics are replaced.
Yes, because the oath is a class feature and therefore part of their game statistics, and their game statistics are replaced.
Strictly speaking yes, because the oath is part of their game statistics and their game statistics were replaced.
However it's up to the DM how to interpret any breach of a paladin's oath while transformed, and whether it could apply retroactively when they change back; can a Paladin of the ancients be said to have upheld their oath if they took the opportunity to desecrate druidic shrines while they were an animal? The animal might not have been subject to the oath at the time, but the paladin who returns when it changes back might still have to deal with the consequences.
Although it's worth keeping in mind that upholding and breaking oaths are not defined game mechanics; there is no rule that says what happens if you break your oath, it's entirely up to your DM. It's a common misconception (sadly reinforced by Baldur's Gate 3) that you become an Oathbreaker, but that's not what the Oathbreaker sub-class is for, nor do the rules tell you to do it. Your DM decides what breaking an oath means.
The Wizard might retain knowledge of their spells, but they no longer have their spellbook, they no longer have their prepared spells or the ability to cast them. The only spell that a deep rothé can cast is dancing lights, thus it is the only spell that a Wizard transformed into a deep rothé can cast as well.
They might remember the spells they had, but they do not possess any means by which to cast them, the components are the least of their troubles; it's more like their access to the Weave is severed except for what the deep rothé is naturally (innately) capable of.
Because it's a class feature and therefore part of their game statistics, which are replaced by the spell. The spell literally tells you to replace game statistics, so that's what you have to do. There is no clever workaround to this except to learn a much higher level spell that lets you keep some of your statistics, it's called shapechange.
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Since when is Spellcasting considered a statistic? It is considered a class feature and your chosen race does not limit you in a choice of your class (at least in the majority of cases).
First of all, such sorcerer would still need to provide material components since their pouch or focus are also most likely unusable. Also, I just found out that there is precedence in druid's beast shape ability. The lvl 18 improvement that allows spellcasting while wildshaped words it in a way that connects this new ability to being able to provide verbal and somatic components of the spells while in beast form.
When I wrote "understanding spellcasting", I meant whether the character retains the ability to comprehend the arcane/divine enough to still use it, regardless of other factors limiting the use of spells.
I specifically picked cranium rats because they were the only example I have seen where there's a visible stat treshold where the creature has not enough inteligence to use its spellcasting ability despite having one. The other example You have provided clearly shows that the treshold for having comprehension required to cast certain spell, if there is a specific one, would depend on the spell's level. That does align with the basic rules mentioning that cantrips are far more simple than other spells. However, a greater amount of species would be needed to draw a final conclusion.
Your game statistics are everything mechanical about your character including your ability scores, class, race, background etc. When you are polymorphed everything mechanical about your character is changed for those of the creature you are turning into. The spell is literally telling you this, otherwise what do you think the point of the polymorph spell is?
It doesn't say "you become another creature but get to pick and choose whatever features you'd like to keep". If you turn into a sheep you are now a sheep, that's just what the spell does.
The Archdruid feature is an 18th-level feature that explicitly allows you to do this, and only when wild-shaping (which already has a bunch of other exceptions, since it doesn't fully replace your character's game statistics). This thread is about the polymorph spell which does not function in the same way – Wild Shape replaces only certain parts of your game statistics, polymorph replaces everything with only a couple of exceptions.
And that's an 18th-level feature that only Druids get, it's not a feature that everyone gets to have because they want it. Casting spells while transformed is a high level feature in 5th edition, accessible only to 17th-level or higher characters via Archdruid Wild Shape or shapechange. If you want to cast spells while transformed before that point you need to either transform into something with its own (and only its own) spellcasting ability, or you need to find some other way to do it like a magic item and a lenient DM.
Then no, they don't "understand spellcasting", because that's set out in the Spellcasting feature which they no longer have after being polymorphed. It really cannot be made any simpler than this.
They might still remember what spellcasting is, and how it's done etc., but they are not able to do it.
A cranium rat has neither high Intelligence nor spellcasting, though it does have an Intelligence high enough that some beast spells won't work on it, but there are other beasts that that applies to (an ape has a even higher intelligence).
Intelligence doesn't determine whether you can or can't cast spells; you could roll a Wizard with an Intelligence of 3 if you really wanted to (or you were absurdly unlucky), and they'd still be able to cast spells because they have the Spellcasting feature. They'd be absolutely terrible at it thanks to a -4 modifier, but they can still do it, even though they're stupider than many animals.
No it doesn't. Deep rothé can cast dancing lights because their monster stat block (their game statistics) say so. They have the Innate Spellcasting feature, therefore they can do some innate spellcasting (and only the innate spellcasting it says they can). That's it.
If you don't like how the spell works then fine, don't use it. But it's very clear in what it does and how it operates, and you're very, very unlikely to find a DM willing to let you use it as if it were an early level version of shapechange (a 9th-level spell alongside others such as wish, arguably the most powerful spell in the entire game).
It says you use the creature's game statistics so you use the creature's game statistics; only your alignment and personality remain from your original character's game statistics. That means everything else mechanical is gone; their class, their race, their background, their feats etc. etc. There are no further exceptions.
Knowledge isn't a game statistic because it's not part of the mechanics of the game; characters and creatures can know things, but knowing something is not a game statistic. Knowing about spells does not enable you to cast them, because what enables you to cast them is a Spellcasting feature that tells you you can do it.
There is no universe in which not having something means you have that thing; you lose your spellcasting, so you can't cast spells. It is that simple.
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Spellcasting is a class feature which makes up part of your game statistics like AC, HP, your Class and all associated features. Your spell slot (class table) is all part of your statistics (or stat block, if you will), and gets replaced.
I think this one is kinda clear. There are a handful of game features that turn you into another creature. Each of them tells you what you get to keep. Polymorph is probably the most restrictive: you get to do what the beast can do. None of those options can cast spells.
I believe that’s what Haravikk has been saying all along. Knowing is not the same as being able to do. You may know you are a spellcaster but being able to cast spells when polymorphed is not available.
I don't understand what the problem is here? The polymorph spell tells you to replace your game statistics with those of the creature you are turning into, except for alignment and personality. Those are the only exceptions.
Your game statistics includes ability scores, class features, racial traits, your background, any feats you've gained etc. etc., basically everything mechanical about your character. If something is a class feature, you no longer have it as a polymorphed creature. Spellcasting is a class feature, ergo you are no longer a spellcaster while transformed (unless the creature provides its own form of spellcasting, but this is separate from the feature you had).
What your character knows is not a game statistic, your character can know all sorts of things, but what a character knows has no mechanical benefit beyond being able to say "hey, I know what that is!" To be a spellcaster and actually able to cast spells you must have the Spellcasting feature (or an equivalent feature like Innate Spellcasting or Pact Magic), simply knowing about spells isn't enough.
Any commoner or Barbarian can read a book about magic and learn how spells work, what components and gestures are required etc., but that does not make them a spellcaster. Only being an appropriate class or taking an appropriate feat or magic item gives you the ability to actually cast spells, and while polymorphed you do not have access to these.
The oath class feature is a class feature, it's replaced because the spell says it's replaced. You can't just decide that all of your class features are part of your personality so you can gain all of the benefits of transforming with none of the drawbacks.
"Personality" is never really defined in the game, nor the spell; strictly speaking the only thing "personality" related in your game statistics are your personality traits (under description), though I expect the intention is more broadly meaning "how you would behave" or "who you are as a person". If you were law-abiding and kind heareted prior to being transformed, you would be a law-abiding and kind hearted spider or whatever, but this is really just telling you your character should keep behaving as they would. You get to be a weasel, but don't have to act only as an actual weasel would.
As for the narrative reason why the oath feature no longer applies, that's entirely up to you; the important part is that spells, channel divinity, special features etc. granted by your oath are no longer available to you. If you want to continue respecting nature, or being vengeful or whatever your oath demands as an animal, you are free to do that – minus the special powers the oath gave you to help you do that.
Put another way; while the oath feature is not available to you while transformed, the reasons you swore the oath in the first place, your reasons for adhering to its tenets etc. all remain, because these are not class features or game statistics, they are part of who your character is, not what they are (because what you are is no longer a human Paladin, but is now a sheep, frog, quipper or whatever).
Or yet another way; an oath isn't your personality, an oath is something you swear because of your personality. You might swear the Oath of the Ancients because you love nature, or your home forest. You might swear the Oath of Vengeance because you are driven by revenge etc. In these cases your personality is "loves nature" or "wants revenge", the oath is just a class feature you took to reflect that, and which a transformed creature receives no benefits from. You should still adhere to it to some degree because if your personality is retained then you still love nature, or want revenge, but that's just informing your actions, you gain no mechanic benefit from it until you turn back.
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Or why would Divine Soul Sorcerer suddenly lose access to their soul?
For now I conclude that polymorph limits the target's spellcasting in the following ways:
1. They lack the mental capabilities required to cast anything more complex than a cantrip.
2. They cannot bring out enough finesse to provide somatic nor verbal components.
3. They have a hard time providing material components and then a hard time holding onto them.
So is the character's background a game statistic or is it not? Unless you're going to tell me that palladin's background is somehow separate from the reasons behind swearing their oath.
Also, that cleric question from Kotath gave me an idea. Is a polymorphed cleric capable of calling divine intervention while polymorphed? Well, this does not require hands but requires the cleric to describe the problem. Oh wait, they're talking to a god. Gods speak all languages.
What memories are retained is a DM call on how they want to run polymorph.
RAW, a polymorphed character retains: "The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality."
It only retains alignment and personality. Some folks argue that personality must include memories but, in my opinion, whether a person is mean or nice doesn't necessarily require remembering why they became that way.
The definition of "personality" is:
- the combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual's distinctive character.
- qualities that make someone interesting or popular.
- a characteristic way of thinking, feeling, and behaving.
- the type of person you are, shown by the way you behave, feel, and think:
None of these definitions necessarily imply the retention of knowledge and information when personality is retained. Someone who has amnesia could retain the same personality even if they can't remember anything.
Anyway, this is why the amount of information retained by a polymorphed creature is a DM call depending on how they want to run it.
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In addition, the intelligence stat in D&D represents "Intelligence measures mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason." ... mental acuity, recall and the ability to reason. Most beasts have an intelligence of 3 or lower. This gives them very limited abilities to think, recall and reason. Would a creature be capable of even understanding what a spell is with an intelligence of 3? Even if a DM allows the creature to retain some of its memories as part of its personality ... with an intelligence of 3, the creature would likely be incapable of properly recalling or processing those memories that were formulated with a much higher level of intelligence.
Either way, this is all very firmly in the category of ask your DM as to what a polymorphed creature is capable of.
Some DMs might allow a polymorphed creature to make an arcana check, the creature would not have proficiency unless the beast stat block contained the proficiency and the creature would use the intelligence modifier of the beast in the check. Personally, I would rule that the beast is incapable of understanding the nature of magic and wouldn't be able to succeed at the arcana check.
Finally, in terms of casting spells ... the rules explicitly state that a polymorphed creature is not capable of it ...
"The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech."
Unfortunately, this sentence can be parsed in multiple ways ...
1) Actions are limited by the nature of its new form.
AND
It can't speak, cast spells or take any other action that requires hands or speech.
or
2) It can't speak, cast spells or take any other action that requires hands or speech BECAUSE its actions are limited by the nature of its new form. Thus, if the form is capable of speech or has hands, then the creature may be capable of such tasks.
Personally, I think (1) is the intended interpretation. Even if a creature is polymorphed into a giant ape, it still can't talk or wield weapons even though it may have a vocal chords and hands. However, it could do things like climb which other beast forms might be unable to do. However, again that is a DM call as to how they want to run polymorph.
Game statistics are anything that describes the mechanics of your character; so background features are game statistics, the actual narrative you attach to that background is not.
I really don't know how to make this any clearer; everything mechanical about your character (ability scores and the rules that tell you how your character specific features work) is replaced with those of the creature you are transformed into. There is no loophole to cheat your way out of that.
If you are a lawful good Oath of the Ancients Paladin Tiefling Sailor who gets turned into a sheep, then you are now a lawful good sheep and nothing more. You might remember being all of those other things, recognise your friends, your paladin order, remember the tenets of your oath etc., but that is all – you know them, but you do not gain any mechanical benefit from remember something.
No, because Divine Intervention is a class feature which is part of your game statistics which are replaced.
Seriously, I do not know how to say this any more clearly; nothing special that your character can do survives being polymorphed. It doesn't matter whether narratively it's tied to your "soul" or your "personality" or whatever you want it to be; if it's a mechanical feature (game statistic) it is gone. It is that simple.
You might still be who you are, but you are no longer what you were. And no, you can't just decide that "who" you are is a Paladin with all of their powers intact, because those are what you were, not who. Who is your morals, your allegiances, your principles etc., ideas and ideals that confer no mechanical benefit. Anything that's a class feature is gone, and there is no loophole to circumvent that for this particular spell.
I'm really running out of patience here; if a player kept fishing this hard to cheat their way around a spell while I was DMing, I would ask them to leave the table and kill off their character, because I've wasted over an hour at least on trying to explain this, not to mention the time wasted for others. Being polymorphed comes with trade-offs; if you don't like that, then don't use polymorph.
I want to give the benefit of the doubt here, but that has limits, and I've reached mine, which is why I'm unsubscribing from the thread. Please read what has been said, but most importantly accept the fact that there is no loophole to be found here – the spell does what it says it does.
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My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
If a polymorph into a hydra and get me party members to constantly cut of my heads, would I be able to cast another spell for each new head I gained?
But .. hydras in general lack the basic requirements for spellcasting: Hands to weave around, vocal cords for mumbling arcane syllables. If you were to play a bard, and you polymorphed into an Ettin - maybe you'd be able to use Bardic Inspiration twice in a round. Except, of course, you still have only one bonus action.
But at least there would be some kinda sense to it - each head could make an encouraging little rhyme, independently.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
It is specifically cited as an aspect of the Intelligence stat which I quoted:
"Intelligence measures mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason."
Intelligence directly affects accuracy of recall. A 3 intelligence beast doesn't have the memory abilities of a 10 intelligence humanoid. The intelligence scale isn't linear. However, this is why the functioning of polymorph is a DM call. The polymorphed creature may have little ability to recall their past life, it may be foggy, vague or irrelevant. All we know from the rules is that intelligence represents accuracy of recall or memory and that a beast typically has a much lower intelligence.
If a language is in the beast's stat block, you know it if you are polymorphed into that creature. The rules explicitly state that all of the stat block features replace the character features. The only thing retained is "alignment and personality". I'd suggest that the replacement of character knowledge and skills by the knowledge and skills of the beast they polymorph into could represent the suppresion or removal of the character memories but that is completely open to interpretation. The rules only state that the character's abilities are replaced by the stat block including skills and knowledge like languages.
Lol. Speech implies communication not making noise. I don't know where you'd get the idea that beasts would lose the ability to make noise unless you equate every sound a creature can make with speech.
This is getting metaphysical. However, faith doesn't necessarily rely on knowing exactly what your tenets are and choosing each action you take to be in line with a set of intellectual beliefs. I prefer to think of faith as more fundamental, an implicit knowledge of right and wrong, what to do and what not to do. A creature doesn't need to think, "I shouldn't kill that person walking down the street because it is wrong" they just don't kill them because it never enters their mind because it is just wrong.
However, we are talking about D&D magic and the polymorph spell ... it is quite possible for a magic spell to completely replace the character with another. The spell could have said that the character retains their memory ... however, then there would be the issue that the character doesn't retain their skills and knowledge. A polymorphed character can't understand the languages they knew since they are not on the beast stat block. They don't have the skills or knowledge they once had, eg. insight, investigation, perception, athletics, knowledge of tools, stealth - unless something happens to be on the beast stat block. I think the fact that the polymorphed creature LOSES access to all knowledge of language and skills that they normally have is actually a good indicator that memory is not functionally retained.
Lol what? Feeblemind allows a saving once every throw every 30 days. Feeblemind doesn't need concentration. Feeblemind sets intelligence and charisma to 1.
Polymorph lasts at most an hour and requires concentration. I'd also argue that Polymorph is actually more powerful if the affected creature retains the ability to reason, recall, formulate plans and act ... you can then replace your front line fighter with a brand new T-rex without any concerns, they act tactically, attack the correct targets, run over to protect the spellcaster if they are in trouble, communicate by making sounds or scratching lines on the ground. In my opinion, a polymorphed creature is not capable of any of those actions that require memory or reasoning as long as their intelligence is limited. You also run into the situation where a polymorphed enemy target will immediately try to commit suicide in order to end the polymorph spell since if they retain memory and reasoning ability to do so and know they would take little damage as a result.
5e doesn't have any specific limits if using rolled stats - it is up to the DM and the game and WotC doesn't want to tell folks how to play.
The rules DO suggest a minimum of 8 however. Under the customizing ability scores rule in the PHB it states "You can’t have a score lower than 8." That only applies to point buy or standard array but the rules make it pretty clear that the suggestion is that a stat should have a minimum value of 8 for a PC. This edition of D&D isn't as stat restrictive as previous versions. So again, play how you like, but it would take a pretty exceptional backstory in one of my games for a wizard (or any character for that matter) with an intelligence of 3 to make sense. A character with an intelligence of 3 would have significant difficulty adventuring or interacting with other characters. They might not even be able to open a door for example. Lighting a fire or preparing food would likely be beyond them. Maintaining weapons and armor wouldn't work either. However, perhaps we have a different view on what intelligence represents in D&D.