The reason we have size categories and a base size is so you can instantly and easily determine what volume the creature is able to occupy to answer "does it fit?"
Forcecage: 20 ft cube, Dragon: 15 ft cube. It fits comfortably with room to spare. And done. No more thought necessary.
This baseline already takes into account things like: moving around in the space, wings, limbs, long necks, floating appendages, everything. It's the entire point of why things are given size categories.
“A creature's space is the area it effectively controls in combat, not an expression of its physical size. A typical medium creature isn't 5 feet wide..”
It seems open to interpretation (and discussion 🙂 )
Yeah, but the size given is "the space it occupies". If can fit in a 15 ft cube then it can fit in a 20 ft cube - that's basic maths. Wings can fold. So can limbs. Legs can bend. Creatures are typically animate, not unmoving static things. They're alive, they move.
The reason you get given size categories and not the individual specific measurements: because specific measurements are utterly irrelevant and will bog things down.
"This dragon can do everything in its statblock fine in a 15 cube, so it will continue to be fine in a 20 ft cube. Forcecage is not a problem."
"This creature is designed to do everything in a 25 ft cube, but Forcecage is a size smaller, 20 ft cube, so it's going be squeezing and have some minor penalties."
There, nice, easy, simple. No need for looking up wingspaces, beak lengths, tail lengths, and other boring minutiae that will make players despise your existence as they wait, bored to tears, while you get out rulers to measure how this nonexistant fantasy thing specifically fits into this nonexistant fantasy space and what it can precisely do or not do based on its measurements and the angles of its anatomy. The game instead saves all that by giving you a size category. Glance, quick check, all good, continue. Simple.
I appreciate your response - though not necessarily the tone or the delivery. I think I’ll move away from asking questions on these forums if the responses are quite the way you phrase them. Foolish of me to think I’d get an open minded discussion on an online forum. 🤷🏻♂️
I'm more than happy to have an open minded discussion (and was actually having one). But that doesn't mean I must agree with you. But I will also mention what I have said is a highlight of the rules-as-written and the game design intention. This is the forum for discussing the application of the RAW/ game design intent. Evidently, this doesn't appear to be what you want. If you are looking for a discussion about how to change rules to better suit your style of play, or to get the opinions of other DMs on how they do or don't apply these rules - there is a DM forum ("Dungeon Masters Only") specifically for that.
I think this is less about my tone (or, more specifically, your personal interpretation of it) and more about you perhaps not understanding this forum?
The OP's original question was about the Forcecage 10' x 10' box, not the 20' x 20' cage with half inch diameter bars
Same rule applies. If You can see your destination, you can teleport to it with misty step. Just like you can misty step past a wall of force. The wording of forcecage means you can’t cast a spell through the barrier so people on one side can’t cast at people on the other side. You can still cast freely on the inside, you just can’t target anyone on the outside. Teleport spells, however, don’t target the other side of the cage, they target self, so you are not casting it through the barrier. And the essence of teleportation is moving from one spot to another without occupying anyplace in between.
Also in the description of disintegrate, it specifically says you can use it on something constructed of magical force, like wall of force. Forcecage is just a few walls of force stuck together.
No....Just no. There is a clear difference between the 10' x 10' box and the 20' x 20' cage. There is even a small paragraph which I highlighted in the OP that clearly distinguishes itself differently than the 20' x 20' cage. And if you're going to compare Forcecage to a Wall of Force, then just based on the text alone (or lack thereof), The Disintegrate spell doesn't work on Forcecage, since it's clearly stated in the Wall of Force description, "Nothing can physically pass through the wall. It is immune to all damage and can't be dispelled by dispel magic. A disintegrate spell destroys the wall instantly, however. The wall also extends into the Ethereal Plane, blocking ethereal travel through the wall." The text in Forcecage says nothing of Disintegrate, just Dispel Magic and extending into the Ethereal Plane. You need to read both spells top to bottom, stop with the selective reading, and understand how grammar and putting paragraphs together actually work
Ironically (given your last sentence), if you read the text for the forcecage spell, in the first paragraph it says, "An immobile, invisible, cube-shaped prison composed of MAGICAL FORCE springs into existence around an area you choose within range." (emphasis mine)
The first paragraph of Disintegrate says, "The target can be a creature, an object, or a creation of MAGICAL FORCE, such as the wall created by wall of force." (emphasis mine)
Stating Wall of Force as an example, after the words "such as" does not exclude other spells that also explicitly state "made of magical force".
Thanks, Cybermind. That helps (a bit)!
could you elaborate on your response to # 2?
The reason we have size categories and a base size is so you can instantly and easily determine what volume the creature is able to occupy to answer "does it fit?"
Forcecage: 20 ft cube, Dragon: 15 ft cube. It fits comfortably with room to spare. And done. No more thought necessary.
This baseline already takes into account things like: moving around in the space, wings, limbs, long necks, floating appendages, everything. It's the entire point of why things are given size categories.
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True, though in the Player’s Handbook, page 191:
“A creature's space is the area it effectively controls in combat, not an expression of its physical size. A typical medium creature isn't 5 feet wide..”
It seems open to interpretation (and discussion 🙂 )
Yeah, but the size given is "the space it occupies". If can fit in a 15 ft cube then it can fit in a 20 ft cube - that's basic maths. Wings can fold. So can limbs. Legs can bend. Creatures are typically animate, not unmoving static things. They're alive, they move.
The reason you get given size categories and not the individual specific measurements: because specific measurements are utterly irrelevant and will bog things down.
"This dragon can do everything in its statblock fine in a 15 cube, so it will continue to be fine in a 20 ft cube. Forcecage is not a problem."
"This creature is designed to do everything in a 25 ft cube, but Forcecage is a size smaller, 20 ft cube, so it's going be squeezing and have some minor penalties."
There, nice, easy, simple. No need for looking up wingspaces, beak lengths, tail lengths, and other boring minutiae that will make players despise your existence as they wait, bored to tears, while you get out rulers to measure how this nonexistant fantasy thing specifically fits into this nonexistant fantasy space and what it can precisely do or not do based on its measurements and the angles of its anatomy. The game instead saves all that by giving you a size category. Glance, quick check, all good, continue. Simple.
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I appreciate your response - though not necessarily the tone or the delivery. I think I’ll move away from asking questions on these forums if the responses are quite the way you phrase them. Foolish of me to think I’d get an open minded discussion on an online forum. 🤷🏻♂️
I'm more than happy to have an open minded discussion (and was actually having one). But that doesn't mean I must agree with you. But I will also mention what I have said is a highlight of the rules-as-written and the game design intention. This is the forum for discussing the application of the RAW/ game design intent. Evidently, this doesn't appear to be what you want. If you are looking for a discussion about how to change rules to better suit your style of play, or to get the opinions of other DMs on how they do or don't apply these rules - there is a DM forum ("Dungeon Masters Only") specifically for that.
I think this is less about my tone (or, more specifically, your personal interpretation of it) and more about you perhaps not understanding this forum?
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Spells | Magic Items | Feats
Need help with Homebrew? Check out this FAQ/Guide thread by IamSposta
See My Youtube Videos for Tips & Tricks using D&D Beyond
With regards to the question about Disintegrate and Forcecage, Jeremy Crawford ruled on it here:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/does-disintegrate-destroy-forcecage/
Ironically (given your last sentence), if you read the text for the forcecage spell, in the first paragraph it says, "An immobile, invisible, cube-shaped prison composed of MAGICAL FORCE springs into existence around an area you choose within range." (emphasis mine)
The first paragraph of Disintegrate says, "The target can be a creature, an object, or a creation of MAGICAL FORCE, such as the wall created by wall of force." (emphasis mine)
Stating Wall of Force as an example, after the words "such as" does not exclude other spells that also explicitly state "made of magical force".
If a creature inside force cage expands will it die