How about the rogue spends its bonus action for steady aim and then directs its horse to move because the rogue is mounted?
doesn’t say you can’t benefit from another creatures speed, just that your own speed turns to 0.
I would definitely allow that before allowing the 1 way full cover of the original scenario (which was my primary concern more than anything else).
As to whether I actually allow that: I'd probably allow it in the moment, and would do further checking before deciding to continue allowing that (would update players between sessions).
The idea of someone taking careful aim from horseback seems very reasonable to me.
It seems more reasonable, to me, than taking careful aim from a carriage/cart, as there is a recognisable rhythm to horse riding (as far as I know, I don't ride horses), whereas a cart/carriage/similar is going to bounce over any terrain with no predictable pattern.
However, if the horse was moving, you would have to move with it, and I find it difficult to believe you could get the same accuracy of aim as from standing still. Therefore, I kind of feel it should stop Steady Aim from working as it would involve the same level of distraction and "unsteadying" as moving yourself.
The fact is that it is not directly addressed by the rules, so we are left to infer from other rules how it is meant to apply to this situation. I think the result is that you end up with a few right-enough answers that really don't need to negate each other to be valid.
The fact is that it is not directly addressed by the rules, so we are left to infer from other rules how it is meant to apply to this situation. I think the result is that you end up with a few right-enough answers that really don't need to negate each other to be valid.
Definitely. This is all in the realms of DM discretion, and there is no right answer.
STEADY AIM 3rd-level rogue feature As a bonus action, you give yourself advantage on your next attack roll on the current turn. You can use this bonus action only if you haven't moved during this turn, and after you use the bonus action, your speed is O until the end of the current turn.
if you guys wanna stop it from working with mounts that’s fine, your tables are your tables. I was just pointing out that it doesn’t stop you from all forms of movement. It just prevents you from moving before the attack and makes your movement 0 until your turn ends. There are a few ways to “move” without a move speed. I was just pointing out the easiest way I could think of.
makes perfect sense to me though. You’re on horse back, you and your horse are perfectly still as you line up your shot and release, and then you spur the horse to move.
the caveat would be you couldn’t move before taking steady aim, even with the horses movement, to get space. it says “if you haven’t moved this turn” that means moved at all, even using forms of movement that aren’t related to your personal speed. You could steady aim where you are with advantage and disadvantage canceling out if your within 5ft of a foe. You’d still get sneak attack though since your mount is an ally.
Perhaps the mechanic some are missing is the steady aim part of steady aim. Indicates you hold position ofr....well, to effectively steady and aim, 4-6 seconds sounds about right....which is the "time" of your turn. That's why you can't actually move, because it takes all the time allotted in your turn to get steady and aim and fire. The 6 seconds has passed and the next time you get a chance to do something is your next turn. That was why I said earlier that as a DM I would allow the player to stand from a crouch (not seated and not prone, but crouched, as though behind a large crate) Even kneeling, I wouldn't allow it to be used if they had to stand to perform the action, as popping up from a crouch is easy and very quick. Any other form of rising will consume too much time to allow for the steady aim.
(again, my handling of the rule, others may differ)
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
The whole crouching thing is already built into the game, but nobody uses it.
Its called cover. If there was cover around, either 1/2 or 3/4, your characters gain those benefits mechanically of AC and Dexterity saving throw boosts. That’s why it’s simplified in the way it’s described. Cover can be another creature, a corner of a building, a low wall. The bonus represents the mechanic, how you describe it can be W/e you want as long as it’s not going prone.
the fact that they don’t hold the DMs hand in this game and tell you exactly what it is means that many DMs will never use it for a few reasons.
1. It may Slows down the game, especially because the picture in the DMG doesnt actually show you how the rule is described so it leads to arguments. (Kind to f like this thread)
2. They generalized what could count as cover so much that it left the mechanics so open people won’t even try it out in the first place. Especially when it comes to theater of the mind vs grid play. In giving all the power to the DM, they made it so that the DM has to adjudicate every single attack and dex effect. I don’t think I’ve seen a single dnd stream where a party actually uses cover correctly.
3. the game is 3 dimensional but the rules don’t promote this fir grid play easily. Online tabletop software is beginning to make a lot of this easier though.
I think the cover mechanic should be used extensively, as its one of the few ways to balance melee vs ranged combatants. the entire table should be crystal clear about expectations, how the mechanic works, and also the players should be policing themselves to help the DM. If your target is benefiting from cover, especially something as easy as a creature behind another creature, that player should be deducting from their own attack rolls automatically.
as for the time aspect of steady aim, that doesn’t matter at all. It doesn’t prevent you from attacking multiple times after that first attack gaining advantage. There’s no reference to time at all. It’s a level 3 rogue feature, a MC’ed rogue fighter can spend a bonus action to steady themselves and then action surge that same turn. Most of the limitations being placed on this feature seem to be arbitrarily based on the name of the feature, which has no bearing at all on the way its mechanics work.
STEADY AIM 3rd-level rogue feature As a bonus action, you give yourself advantage on your next attack roll on the current turn. You can use this bonus action only if you haven't moved during this turn, and after you use the bonus action, your speed is O until the end of the current turn.
-a mount works within rules.
-11 ranger horizon walker feature multiclass would work with the feature for 10ft teleports per attack.
-wizard/ranger/bard multiclass casting steel wind strike would work for this feature and allow movement.
-i can’t think of a useful way to take advantage of it, but the graviturgy wizard level 6 feature to move creatures they target with a spell(including themselves) would work.
-swarm keeper ranger level 3 feature would work with this feature to allow movement with 0 speed.
there’s probably more but that’s all I could think of atm.
A controlled mount has an initiative that matches its rider but it still has a separate turn, so mounted combat and steady aim work perfectly fine together. You just have to decide whether the horse is taking its turn before or after you. Mounted combat is clunky though, it doesn't allow you to move > attack > move as the rider.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
You can control a mount only if it has been trained to accept a rider. Domesticated horses, donkeys, and similar creatures are assumed to have such training. The initiative of a controlled mount changes to match yours when you mount it. It moves as you direct it, and it has only three action options: Dash, Disengage, and Dodge. A controlled mount can move and act even on the turn that you mount it.
Controlled is not immediately before or after your turn. Sounds like you’re adding limitations given to pets from subclasses.
Wow. That’s a pretty stupid ruling. Seems like something they should errata to make clear at all if that’s somehow the intent. Especially since it’s a general rule with no description of that, and word choice that is contradictory.
leads me to ask the question... what’s the point of a lance? With those mechanical limitations there’s no reason to use a mount and a lance if your movement and actions are limited in that way.
at any rate... if the mount is on a different turn even though it’s controlled, what ever “intent” people are reading into for limiting steady aim movement would no longer apply if the mount moved after you on its turn?
The intent is pretty clear that you have to be stationary to keep your aim steady. Technically the mount moving may not be your movement, but you are still moving.
You may be right for horseback. I wonder what the intent is for being in a vehicle like a cart or a ship.
It makes little sense, to me, to allow a rogue to travel vast distances on a mount yet still maintain "steady aim". It would be vastly more difficult to aim from the back of a galloping horse than if you took a few steps yourself. I would probably, therefore, house rule that your mount's turn counted as yours, and it's movement as yours, for the purposes of this feature.
That said, I'd probably house rule that a mount shares your turn anyway. This sage advice seems silly for normal mounts, to me.
The intent is pretty clear that you have to be stationary to keep your aim steady. Technically the mount moving may not be your movement, but you are still moving.
You may be right for horseback. I wonder what the intent is for being in a vehicle like a cart or a ship.
I think it probably means relative movement. On a ship - you're not moving relative to the ship so you could steady aim - but you could also be considered moving if your target is not on the ship - like flying for instance. On a cart I would call that moving - unless the target is also on the cart - again - relative movement.
But I doubt that's RAW at all - if a RAW even exists for such a scenario.
The intent is pretty clear that you have to be stationary to keep your aim steady. Technically the mount moving may not be your movement, but you are still moving.
You may be right for horseback. I wonder what the intent is for being in a vehicle like a cart or a ship.
For a cart/carriage, I'd personally say it's even worse than horseback. Those things bounce over every bump.
For a ship, I'd probably allow it. People get used to the movement of a ship, especially in reasonably calm waters, plus the target will often be aboard ship anyway. If they were in rough seas, I may impose disadvantage on all but experienced sailors, though, which would cancel it out.
I would definitely allow that before allowing the 1 way full cover of the original scenario (which was my primary concern more than anything else).
As to whether I actually allow that: I'd probably allow it in the moment, and would do further checking before deciding to continue allowing that (would update players between sessions).
The idea of someone taking careful aim from horseback seems very reasonable to me.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
It seems more reasonable, to me, than taking careful aim from a carriage/cart, as there is a recognisable rhythm to horse riding (as far as I know, I don't ride horses), whereas a cart/carriage/similar is going to bounce over any terrain with no predictable pattern.
However, if the horse was moving, you would have to move with it, and I find it difficult to believe you could get the same accuracy of aim as from standing still. Therefore, I kind of feel it should stop Steady Aim from working as it would involve the same level of distraction and "unsteadying" as moving yourself.
The fact is that it is not directly addressed by the rules, so we are left to infer from other rules how it is meant to apply to this situation. I think the result is that you end up with a few right-enough answers that really don't need to negate each other to be valid.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Definitely. This is all in the realms of DM discretion, and there is no right answer.
STEADY AIM
3rd-level rogue feature
As a bonus action, you give yourself advantage on your next attack roll on the current turn. You can use this bonus action only if you haven't moved during this turn, and after you use the bonus action, your speed is O until the end of the current turn.
if you guys wanna stop it from working with mounts that’s fine, your tables are your tables. I was just pointing out that it doesn’t stop you from all forms of movement. It just prevents you from moving before the attack and makes your movement 0 until your turn ends. There are a few ways to “move” without a move speed. I was just pointing out the easiest way I could think of.
makes perfect sense to me though. You’re on horse back, you and your horse are perfectly still as you line up your shot and release, and then you spur the horse to move.
the caveat would be you couldn’t move before taking steady aim, even with the horses movement, to get space. it says “if you haven’t moved this turn” that means moved at all, even using forms of movement that aren’t related to your personal speed. You could steady aim where you are with advantage and disadvantage canceling out if your within 5ft of a foe. You’d still get sneak attack though since your mount is an ally.
Perhaps the mechanic some are missing is the steady aim part of steady aim. Indicates you hold position ofr....well, to effectively steady and aim, 4-6 seconds sounds about right....which is the "time" of your turn. That's why you can't actually move, because it takes all the time allotted in your turn to get steady and aim and fire. The 6 seconds has passed and the next time you get a chance to do something is your next turn. That was why I said earlier that as a DM I would allow the player to stand from a crouch (not seated and not prone, but crouched, as though behind a large crate) Even kneeling, I wouldn't allow it to be used if they had to stand to perform the action, as popping up from a crouch is easy and very quick. Any other form of rising will consume too much time to allow for the steady aim.
(again, my handling of the rule, others may differ)
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
The whole crouching thing is already built into the game, but nobody uses it.
Its called cover. If there was cover around, either 1/2 or 3/4, your characters gain those benefits mechanically of AC and Dexterity saving throw boosts. That’s why it’s simplified in the way it’s described. Cover can be another creature, a corner of a building, a low wall. The bonus represents the mechanic, how you describe it can be W/e you want as long as it’s not going prone.
the fact that they don’t hold the DMs hand in this game and tell you exactly what it is means that many DMs will never use it for a few reasons.
1. It may Slows down the game, especially because the picture in the DMG doesnt actually show you how the rule is described so it leads to arguments. (Kind to f like this thread)
2. They generalized what could count as cover so much that it left the mechanics so open people won’t even try it out in the first place. Especially when it comes to theater of the mind vs grid play. In giving all the power to the DM, they made it so that the DM has to adjudicate every single attack and dex effect. I don’t think I’ve seen a single dnd stream where a party actually uses cover correctly.
3. the game is 3 dimensional but the rules don’t promote this fir grid play easily. Online tabletop software is beginning to make a lot of this easier though.
I think the cover mechanic should be used extensively, as its one of the few ways to balance melee vs ranged combatants. the entire table should be crystal clear about expectations, how the mechanic works, and also the players should be policing themselves to help the DM. If your target is benefiting from cover, especially something as easy as a creature behind another creature, that player should be deducting from their own attack rolls automatically.
as for the time aspect of steady aim, that doesn’t matter at all. It doesn’t prevent you from attacking multiple times after that first attack gaining advantage. There’s no reference to time at all. It’s a level 3 rogue feature, a MC’ed rogue fighter can spend a bonus action to steady themselves and then action surge that same turn. Most of the limitations being placed on this feature seem to be arbitrarily based on the name of the feature, which has no bearing at all on the way its mechanics work.
STEADY AIM
3rd-level rogue feature
As a bonus action, you give yourself advantage on your next attack roll on the current turn. You can use this bonus action only if you haven't moved during this turn, and after you use the bonus action, your speed is O until the end of the current turn.
-a mount works within rules.
-11 ranger horizon walker feature multiclass would work with the feature for 10ft teleports per attack.
-wizard/ranger/bard multiclass casting steel wind strike would work for this feature and allow movement.
-i can’t think of a useful way to take advantage of it, but the graviturgy wizard level 6 feature to move creatures they target with a spell(including themselves) would work.
-swarm keeper ranger level 3 feature would work with this feature to allow movement with 0 speed.
there’s probably more but that’s all I could think of atm.
A controlled mount has an initiative that matches its rider but it still has a separate turn, so mounted combat and steady aim work perfectly fine together. You just have to decide whether the horse is taking its turn before or after you. Mounted combat is clunky though, it doesn't allow you to move > attack > move as the rider.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
What do you mean?
You can control a mount only if it has been trained to accept a rider. Domesticated horses, donkeys, and similar creatures are assumed to have such training. The initiative of a controlled mount changes to match yours when you mount it. It moves as you direct it, and it has only three action options: Dash, Disengage, and Dodge. A controlled mount can move and act even on the turn that you mount it.
Controlled is not immediately before or after your turn. Sounds like you’re adding limitations given to pets from subclasses.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/03/14/rider-on-controlled-mount-wants-to-attack-mid-move-do-rider-and-mount-share-one-turn/
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Wow. That’s a pretty stupid ruling. Seems like something they should errata to make clear at all if that’s somehow the intent. Especially since it’s a general rule with no description of that, and word choice that is contradictory.
leads me to ask the question... what’s the point of a lance? With those mechanical limitations there’s no reason to use a mount and a lance if your movement and actions are limited in that way.
at any rate... if the mount is on a different turn even though it’s controlled, what ever “intent” people are reading into for limiting steady aim movement would no longer apply if the mount moved after you on its turn?
I suppose that's a problem with a rule system where every combatant acts sequentially even if we say it happens more or less at the same time.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I think that is really up to dm
You may be right for horseback. I wonder what the intent is for being in a vehicle like a cart or a ship.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
It makes little sense, to me, to allow a rogue to travel vast distances on a mount yet still maintain "steady aim". It would be vastly more difficult to aim from the back of a galloping horse than if you took a few steps yourself. I would probably, therefore, house rule that your mount's turn counted as yours, and it's movement as yours, for the purposes of this feature.
That said, I'd probably house rule that a mount shares your turn anyway. This sage advice seems silly for normal mounts, to me.
I think it probably means relative movement. On a ship - you're not moving relative to the ship so you could steady aim - but you could also be considered moving if your target is not on the ship - like flying for instance. On a cart I would call that moving - unless the target is also on the cart - again - relative movement.
But I doubt that's RAW at all - if a RAW even exists for such a scenario.
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Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
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For a cart/carriage, I'd personally say it's even worse than horseback. Those things bounce over every bump.
For a ship, I'd probably allow it. People get used to the movement of a ship, especially in reasonably calm waters, plus the target will often be aboard ship anyway. If they were in rough seas, I may impose disadvantage on all but experienced sailors, though, which would cancel it out.
Maybe call for an animal handling check to see if you can keep the mount steady enough to pull off the aim?
"Not all those who wander are lost"