I want to get some input from the Beyond Mind regarding the new Rogue Feature Class Option Steady Aim.
Steady Aim
3rd-level rogue feature
As a bonus action, you give yourself advantage on your next attack roll on the current turn. You can use this bonus action only if you haven’t moved during this turn, and after you use the bonus action, your speed is 0 until the end of the current turn.
Question. If a rogue is hidden behind something that she needs to crouch down, not hidden, (creating Total Cover but not Prone) in order to be hidden does standing up count as movement and therefore cannot use Steady Aim? Or does movement mean steps? And if it doesn't can she stand fire and squat back down? And is it a sneak attack?
My take away from the rule is that any type of movement or call it repositioning of the body would invalidate Steady Aim. I'd say Prone would also invalidate it since you are using a form of your movement speed. As for Sneak Attack, I'd guess with the RAW "Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll." it would be allowed.
Conceivably, the standing from a crouch might be your free action for the turn, crouching again would require a hide. Of course, 87 people are likely to tell you why I’m wrong.
Conceivably, the standing from a crouch might be your free action for the turn, crouching again would require a hide. Of course, 87 people are likely to tell you why I’m wrong.
LOL, I'm guessing I've missed something over the past week since I've been absent from the forums.
From your point of view is crouching, hiding, or popping-up classified as movement, or is the movement just your speed economy?
This feels like a DM's call. The mechanical intent of the feature text feels to be "if you spend movement, you can't use Steady Aim." Crouching or standing from a crouch usually wouldn't require spending any movement.
That said, the narrative intent of the feature, in my mind anyway, would preclude benefiting from it if you have to rise from a crouch. It just feels like too much shifting around to benefit from a feature that has the word "steady" in its name.
The actual wording of the text does allow for a reading that says "rising from a crouch is moving." Even if we take this reading, the wording does allow a standing character to fire off a shot with advantage and then duck behind cover, which feels very in keeping with the spirit of the feature.
Conceivably, the standing from a crouch might be your free action for the turn, crouching again would require a hide. Of course, 87 people are likely to tell you why I’m wrong.
LOL, I'm guessing I've missed something over the past week since I've been absent from the forums.
From your point of view is crouching, hiding, or popping-up classified as movement, or is the movement just your speed economy?
I would count standing from a crouch or crouching again as a free action in this case. Normally I would just include it with movement, but in this circumstance.... So basically, my ruling is that you can rise, or crouch in the same turn you use Steady Aim, but not both.
The way I see it is this. If you can see the target, by being behind anything less than full cover, and can aim from a crouched position as part of your Bonus Action, then as part of your Attack Action stand and then standing up is NOT going to be classed as movement. Movement by definition of RAW is moving squares, you are doing neither since you are still in your square of 5ft. What can be defined as movement would be if you fail a save on someone using an action/spell, such as Gust spell. However, that is not possible without them using a Reaction to create such an affect, and I dont know of many effects out there that would force such to happen.
You will note I said less than full cover. If you are behind total/full cover you can NOT be aiming at an enemy, you have to see them in order to be able to aim. Standing up and firing from total/full cover means you are firing blindly, or taking that split second to take aim and attack. The Bonus Action that you are using for the Aim would mean you have to come from that total/full cover position in order to take aim, which then depends on what you are using to hide behind that provides such cover. However, if you have used Hide your previous turn, you are in full cover of whatever shadow you are hiding, and if you beat their passive perception, they are not going to know your there unless they Actively look for you and they arent going to be doing that if there are other enemies on the field and you havent yet proven to be a danger.
For game balance purposes, I make cover you crouch behind count as going prone (or house rule a "half prone" that only requires 1/4 movement to stand). So you wouldn't be able to steady aim and stand in the same turn.
For game balance purposes, I make cover you crouch behind count as going prone (or house rule a "half prone" that only requires 1/4 movement to stand). So you wouldn't be able to steady aim and stand in the same turn.
The "your speed is 0 until the end of the current turn." part means you are unmoving anyway, and since you have to use your BA before your Attack Action to get the Aim in means your not going to be moving anyway. It also means you cant take a Reaction to move away from an opponent should you have an ability that allows such to happen.
The definition of Move in this instance is moving more than your current 'square'. Basically if you are using a ranged attack you are stuck to that position, even if you have cover you cant duck back down since that requires a Cunning Action, which is what gives Rogues the ability to Hide as a Bonus Action. You cant move after your Attack Action, even to attack a creature that is 10 feet away with your 5 foot reach weapon if you have a second attack available to use, because again the Steady Aim has locked you in place.
Standing up also falls under 'Other Activity on Your Turn' which is where 'drawing a weapon' or 'opening a door as one moves forward' falls in. Standing up from a crouch position is no more difficult than drawing a weapon to attack. And is very much different to being prone which is you being flat on your ass on the ground or eating dirt.
Although I'm usually a stickler for the rules, I would invoke RAI for this one. You are carefully aiming your weapon. You can't be ducking and dodging around in your space while you do that. If you want to have advantage and be behind cover, that's what Hide is for. Using Steady Aim and ducking behind cover just feels too much to me like having your cake and eating it too.
Although I'm usually a stickler for the rules, I would invoke RAI for this one. You are carefully aiming your weapon. You can't be ducking and dodging around in your space while you do that. If you want to have advantage and be behind cover, that's what Hide is for. Using Steady Aim and ducking behind cover just feels too much to me like having your cake and eating it too.
Yep, must like a sniper. Sure you still could have 3/4's cover, which an arrow slit falls under, but you can still get shot by another archer, or by that pesky Warlock/initiate using Eldritch Blast, even with +5AC from the cover you are still going to get hit back, and lookout if they decide to use Scorching Ray, 3 times more the fun.
Maybe I'm missing something - but if you're hidden behind cover - you already have advantage for being an unseen attacker. Why would you aim because it wouldn't give you anything you don't already have?
Maybe I'm missing something - but if you're hidden behind cover - you already have advantage for being an unseen attacker. Why would you aim because it wouldn't give you anything you don't already have?
You only get advantage on the first turn of combat and only if you have surprise. After that there is no surprise. As a Rogue however having an Advantage on an attack helps to add Sneak Attack die into the mix. As a Rogue you need Advantage if you end up on your own with an enemy to get that Sneak Attack die added since the only other way of adding Sneak Attack die on an enemy within melee range is by a party member being within 5ft of the enemy.
Maybe I'm missing something - but if you're hidden behind cover - you already have advantage for being an unseen attacker. Why would you aim because it wouldn't give you anything you don't already have?
You only get advantage on the first turn of combat and only if you have surprise.
No. If you are hidden you get advantage for being an unseen attacker. Which was the point of my question.
Maybe I'm missing something - but if you're hidden behind cover - you already have advantage for being an unseen attacker. Why would you aim because it wouldn't give you anything you don't already have?
You only get advantage on the first turn of combat and only if you have surprise.
No. If you are hidden you get advantage for being an unseen attacker. Which was the point of my question.
Yes, you get that FIRST round of combat, after that you still have to use the Hide action to stay hidden for any subsequent rounds, the moment you perform any action your no longer considered hidden unless said action states you remain hidden. While Rogues can use the Hide action as a Bonus Action as well, they cant do it if they choose to use Steady Aim, which gives them immediate Advantage so they can use Sneak Attack die dmg on the attack should it hit.
So, once you are spotted by any enemy you loose the advantages you had, since they then know the general area you are in you have to Hide again to regain any advantage, and once the enemy knows there is a Rogue, you can bet they will start actively looking for you and will even start firing their own ranged attack into that area, sure its at disadvantage but still a chance they hit. So, you have to fall back to abilities like Steady Aim to regain that Advantage back, or have the help of a party member.
Why are you focussing on the first round? You said so yourself - Rogues can Cunning Action Hide. That means they can hide whenever they like as long as they have something to hide behind. They can hide at the end of one turn - and as long as they're not spotted before their next turn - their first attack on that next turn has advantage (which is exactly what Steady Aim would give them). Hence my question on why someone would Steady Aim if they are hidden.
Essentially - did the OP mean hidden when they said hidden - or instead just meant crouching behind cover. The difference is important.
I want to get some input from the Beyond Mind regarding the new Rogue Feature Class Option Steady Aim.
Steady Aim
3rd-level rogue feature
As a bonus action, you give yourself advantage on your next attack roll on the current turn. You can use this bonus action only if you haven’t moved during this turn, and after you use the bonus action, your speed is 0 until the end of the current turn.
Question. If a rogue is hidden behind something that she needs to squat down (Total Cover but not Prone) in order to be hidden does standing up count as movement and therefore cannot use Steady Aim? Or does movement mean steps? And if it doesn't can she stand fire and squat back down? And is it a sneak attack?
My take away from the rule is that any type of movement or call it repositioning of the body would invalidate Steady Aim. I'd say Prone would also invalidate it since you are using a form of your movement speed. As for Sneak Attack, I'd guess with the RAW "Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll." it would be allowed.
In my opinion, no. Getting up from the prone position costs you movement, but is not movement. It the real world, sure we would say you are "moving," but we would also say you are moving if you draw your sword. In-game, when they say "movement" they mean relocating your current position.
For game balance purposes, I make cover you crouch behind count as going prone (or house rule a "half prone" that only requires 1/4 movement to stand). So you wouldn't be able to steady aim and stand in the same turn.
The "your speed is 0 until the end of the current turn." part means you are unmoving anyway, and since you have to use your BA before your Attack Action to get the Aim in means your not going to be moving anyway. It also means you cant take a Reaction to move away from an opponent should you have an ability that allows such to happen.
Right. Not my point. My point was to make getting additional cover harder (by counting as prone). It is really only relevant to this scenario if you got total cover as that would require standing to make an attack (which costs movement, and you can't do it if movement is 0).
Otherwise, every encounter will turn into trench warfare (because naturally enemies will do it too) of "crouching" behind total cover, standing to attack, and crouching back down. Arguably, this can also be done even if it requires going prone, but that at least makes you less mobile and have downsides if flanked.
In my opinion, no. Getting up from the prone position costs you movement, but is not movement. It the real world, sure we would say you are "moving," but we would also say you are moving if you draw your sword. In-game, when they say "movement" they mean relocating your current position.
I'm not sure which side of the argument you are on, but I will remind you that you can't stand from prone if your movement speed is 0.
Why are you focussing on the first round? You said so yourself - Rogues can Cunning Action Hide. That means they can hide whenever they like as long as they have something to hide behind. They can hide at the end of one turn - and as long as they're not spotted before their next turn - their first attack on that next turn has advantage (which is exactly what Steady Aim would give them). Hence my question on why someone would Steady Aim if they are hidden.
Essentially - did the OP mean hidden when they said hidden - or instead just meant crouching behind cover. The difference is important.
Crouching behind cover, not hidden, enough to give her total cover but no going prone at least that was how it was explained to me.
I could see her starting off as hidden and then once the enemy is aware of her location she starts her crouching 'movement'. Now I could easily enforce she goes prone to do crouching an action which based on the thread's discussion would eliminate Steady Aim.
For game balance purposes, I make cover you crouch behind count as going prone (or house rule a "half prone" that only requires 1/4 movement to stand). So you wouldn't be able to steady aim and stand in the same turn.
The "your speed is 0 until the end of the current turn." part means you are unmoving anyway, and since you have to use your BA before your Attack Action to get the Aim in means your not going to be moving anyway. It also means you cant take a Reaction to move away from an opponent should you have an ability that allows such to happen.
Right. Not my point. My point was to make getting additional cover harder (by counting as prone). It is really only relevant to this scenario if you got total cover as that would require standing to make an attack (which costs movement, and you can't do it if movement is 0).
Otherwise, every encounter will turn into trench warfare (because naturally enemies will do it too) of "crouching" behind total cover, standing to attack, and crouching back down. Arguably, this can also be done even if it requires going prone, but that at least makes you less mobile and have downsides if flanked.
In my opinion, no. Getting up from the prone position costs you movement, but is not movement. It the real world, sure we would say you are "moving," but we would also say you are moving if you draw your sword. In-game, when they say "movement" they mean relocating your current position.
I'm not sure which side of the argument you are on, but I will remind you that you can't stand from prone if your movement speed is 0.
That's a good point. I can see it going either way, I'll be interested in seeing Sage Advice on this one.
Why are you focussing on the first round? You said so yourself - Rogues can Cunning Action Hide. That means they can hide whenever they like as long as they have something to hide behind. They can hide at the end of one turn - and as long as they're not spotted before their next turn - their first attack on that next turn has advantage (which is exactly what Steady Aim would give them). Hence my question on why someone would Steady Aim if they are hidden.
Essentially - did the OP mean hidden when they said hidden - or instead just meant crouching behind cover. The difference is important.
Crouching behind cover, not hidden, enough to give her total cover but no going prone at least that was how it was explained to me.
I could see her starting off as hidden and then once the enemy is aware of her location she starts her crouching 'movement'. Now I could easily enforce she goes prone to do crouching an action which based on the thread's discussion would eliminate Steady Aim.
Exactly the point I am making. Firstly to the person going on about me being focused on first round, once spotted you loose your Advantage and while you can use your BA for Hide, that isnt always going to work and you as the player has to realize that. Some creatures completely negate a character's Hide ability with senses such as Tremorsense, Truesight and Blindsight. So therefore doing you must switch tactics to be able to get that Advantage on an enemy. If you are ON your own the only way you can get that extra damage from Sneak Attack to a creature is by using Steady Aim, or praying a party member steps up to attack so you can get that.
As I stated in my post at post #8, you are not moving when standing from a crouched position and there are zero RAW to that effect, see sage link below. Also since OP has bolded the part they are talking about, if you are behind total cover you cant use the ability without breaking cover, which comes back to how movement is defined within the system. You are not prone by definition of the game by being crouched, so standing up doesnt count as movement.
I want to get some input from the Beyond Mind regarding the new Rogue Feature Class Option Steady Aim.
Question. If a rogue is hidden behind something that she needs to crouch down, not hidden, (creating Total Cover but not Prone) in order to be hidden does standing up count as movement and therefore cannot use Steady Aim? Or does movement mean steps? And if it doesn't can she stand fire and squat back down? And is it a sneak attack?
My take away from the rule is that any type of movement or call it repositioning of the body would invalidate Steady Aim. I'd say Prone would also invalidate it since you are using a form of your movement speed. As for Sneak Attack, I'd guess with the RAW "Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll." it would be allowed.
Conceivably, the standing from a crouch might be your free action for the turn, crouching again would require a hide. Of course, 87 people are likely to tell you why I’m wrong.
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LOL, I'm guessing I've missed something over the past week since I've been absent from the forums.
From your point of view is crouching, hiding, or popping-up classified as movement, or is the movement just your speed economy?
This feels like a DM's call. The mechanical intent of the feature text feels to be "if you spend movement, you can't use Steady Aim." Crouching or standing from a crouch usually wouldn't require spending any movement.
That said, the narrative intent of the feature, in my mind anyway, would preclude benefiting from it if you have to rise from a crouch. It just feels like too much shifting around to benefit from a feature that has the word "steady" in its name.
The actual wording of the text does allow for a reading that says "rising from a crouch is moving." Even if we take this reading, the wording does allow a standing character to fire off a shot with advantage and then duck behind cover, which feels very in keeping with the spirit of the feature.
I would count standing from a crouch or crouching again as a free action in this case. Normally I would just include it with movement, but in this circumstance.... So basically, my ruling is that you can rise, or crouch in the same turn you use Steady Aim, but not both.
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The way I see it is this. If you can see the target, by being behind anything less than full cover, and can aim from a crouched position as part of your Bonus Action, then as part of your Attack Action stand and then standing up is NOT going to be classed as movement. Movement by definition of RAW is moving squares, you are doing neither since you are still in your square of 5ft. What can be defined as movement would be if you fail a save on someone using an action/spell, such as Gust spell. However, that is not possible without them using a Reaction to create such an affect, and I dont know of many effects out there that would force such to happen.
You will note I said less than full cover. If you are behind total/full cover you can NOT be aiming at an enemy, you have to see them in order to be able to aim. Standing up and firing from total/full cover means you are firing blindly, or taking that split second to take aim and attack. The Bonus Action that you are using for the Aim would mean you have to come from that total/full cover position in order to take aim, which then depends on what you are using to hide behind that provides such cover. However, if you have used Hide your previous turn, you are in full cover of whatever shadow you are hiding, and if you beat their passive perception, they are not going to know your there unless they Actively look for you and they arent going to be doing that if there are other enemies on the field and you havent yet proven to be a danger.
For game balance purposes, I make cover you crouch behind count as going prone (or house rule a "half prone" that only requires 1/4 movement to stand). So you wouldn't be able to steady aim and stand in the same turn.
The "your speed is 0 until the end of the current turn." part means you are unmoving anyway, and since you have to use your BA before your Attack Action to get the Aim in means your not going to be moving anyway. It also means you cant take a Reaction to move away from an opponent should you have an ability that allows such to happen.
The definition of Move in this instance is moving more than your current 'square'. Basically if you are using a ranged attack you are stuck to that position, even if you have cover you cant duck back down since that requires a Cunning Action, which is what gives Rogues the ability to Hide as a Bonus Action. You cant move after your Attack Action, even to attack a creature that is 10 feet away with your 5 foot reach weapon if you have a second attack available to use, because again the Steady Aim has locked you in place.
Standing up also falls under 'Other Activity on Your Turn' which is where 'drawing a weapon' or 'opening a door as one moves forward' falls in. Standing up from a crouch position is no more difficult than drawing a weapon to attack. And is very much different to being prone which is you being flat on your ass on the ground or eating dirt.
Although I'm usually a stickler for the rules, I would invoke RAI for this one. You are carefully aiming your weapon. You can't be ducking and dodging around in your space while you do that. If you want to have advantage and be behind cover, that's what Hide is for. Using Steady Aim and ducking behind cover just feels too much to me like having your cake and eating it too.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Yep, must like a sniper. Sure you still could have 3/4's cover, which an arrow slit falls under, but you can still get shot by another archer, or by that pesky Warlock/initiate using Eldritch Blast, even with +5AC from the cover you are still going to get hit back, and lookout if they decide to use Scorching Ray, 3 times more the fun.
Maybe I'm missing something - but if you're hidden behind cover - you already have advantage for being an unseen attacker. Why would you aim because it wouldn't give you anything you don't already have?
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
You only get advantage on the first turn of combat and only if you have surprise. After that there is no surprise. As a Rogue however having an Advantage on an attack helps to add Sneak Attack die into the mix. As a Rogue you need Advantage if you end up on your own with an enemy to get that Sneak Attack die added since the only other way of adding Sneak Attack die on an enemy within melee range is by a party member being within 5ft of the enemy.
No. If you are hidden you get advantage for being an unseen attacker. Which was the point of my question.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Yes, you get that FIRST round of combat, after that you still have to use the Hide action to stay hidden for any subsequent rounds, the moment you perform any action your no longer considered hidden unless said action states you remain hidden. While Rogues can use the Hide action as a Bonus Action as well, they cant do it if they choose to use Steady Aim, which gives them immediate Advantage so they can use Sneak Attack die dmg on the attack should it hit.
So, once you are spotted by any enemy you loose the advantages you had, since they then know the general area you are in you have to Hide again to regain any advantage, and once the enemy knows there is a Rogue, you can bet they will start actively looking for you and will even start firing their own ranged attack into that area, sure its at disadvantage but still a chance they hit. So, you have to fall back to abilities like Steady Aim to regain that Advantage back, or have the help of a party member.
Why are you focussing on the first round? You said so yourself - Rogues can Cunning Action Hide. That means they can hide whenever they like as long as they have something to hide behind. They can hide at the end of one turn - and as long as they're not spotted before their next turn - their first attack on that next turn has advantage (which is exactly what Steady Aim would give them). Hence my question on why someone would Steady Aim if they are hidden.
Essentially - did the OP mean hidden when they said hidden - or instead just meant crouching behind cover. The difference is important.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
In my opinion, no. Getting up from the prone position costs you movement, but is not movement. It the real world, sure we would say you are "moving," but we would also say you are moving if you draw your sword. In-game, when they say "movement" they mean relocating your current position.
Right. Not my point. My point was to make getting additional cover harder (by counting as prone). It is really only relevant to this scenario if you got total cover as that would require standing to make an attack (which costs movement, and you can't do it if movement is 0).
Otherwise, every encounter will turn into trench warfare (because naturally enemies will do it too) of "crouching" behind total cover, standing to attack, and crouching back down. Arguably, this can also be done even if it requires going prone, but that at least makes you less mobile and have downsides if flanked.
I'm not sure which side of the argument you are on, but I will remind you that you can't stand from prone if your movement speed is 0.
Crouching behind cover, not hidden, enough to give her total cover but no going prone at least that was how it was explained to me.
I could see her starting off as hidden and then once the enemy is aware of her location she starts her crouching 'movement'. Now I could easily enforce she goes prone to do crouching an action which based on the thread's discussion would eliminate Steady Aim.
That's a good point. I can see it going either way, I'll be interested in seeing Sage Advice on this one.
Exactly the point I am making. Firstly to the person going on about me being focused on first round, once spotted you loose your Advantage and while you can use your BA for Hide, that isnt always going to work and you as the player has to realize that. Some creatures completely negate a character's Hide ability with senses such as Tremorsense, Truesight and Blindsight. So therefore doing you must switch tactics to be able to get that Advantage on an enemy. If you are ON your own the only way you can get that extra damage from Sneak Attack to a creature is by using Steady Aim, or praying a party member steps up to attack so you can get that.
As I stated in my post at post #8, you are not moving when standing from a crouched position and there are zero RAW to that effect, see sage link below. Also since OP has bolded the part they are talking about, if you are behind total cover you cant use the ability without breaking cover, which comes back to how movement is defined within the system. You are not prone by definition of the game by being crouched, so standing up doesnt count as movement.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/12/15/does-crouching-count-as-being-prone/