Broken like nothing ever before or since. Each friendly creature within range can gain an average of 35 hp of healing...FROM A SECOND LEVEL SPELL. They would not have to choreograph anything, dance, or even think beyond "I'm going through the spirit" on their turn. For even just a party of four, it would take 16 Cure Wounds spells from a Wis18 cleric or nine 3rd level paladins exhausting all their lay on hands to accomplish the same amount of magical healing. The single casting of one 2nd level spell in one minute of time would provide on average 20 hp more healing than an average short rest of one hour featuring all four characters with 4d8 +2Con expending ALL of their available hit dice. In combat, it could heal 1d6 hp multiple times per round at an increasing distance up to 360' away as a bonus action for up to ten consecutive rounds, compared to Healing Word 1d4+prof hp up to 30' away only once, at one spell level below it. If you've played this game more than a few hours you can see that the spell is pulverized into atomic particles kind of broken. It's potential range (up to 360' !!!!), uses per round (no max !!!!), and number of creatures affected (no max !!!!) are all either unprecedented in the game or light years beyond suitable for its level.
There are several ways to fix and a DM could offer a druid their choice when they first access the spell:
1. A total number of creatures equal to your Wisdom modifier can benefit from the spirit's healing (minimum of 2 creatures). The spirit heals an additional d6 for every two levels above 2nd the spell is cast.
2. A creature must start its turn in the spirit's space to gain the healing benefit, and the spirit cannot be moved. At higher levels the spell grants an additional 1d6 healing per level above 2nd.
3. The spirit heals a number of hit points you determine for each creature affected. The spirit vanishes after it grants 16 + 1d6 hp of healing. When cast at higher levels, the maximum healing increases by 1d6 per level above 2nd.
Each friendly creature within range can gain an average of 35 hp of healing
Assuming the damage to the party was evenly spread around so that each friendly creature actually needs that much healing.
They would not have to choreograph anything, dance, or even think beyond "I'm going through the spirit" on their turn.
Except for the part where they would have to make sure to not interfere with each of the other party member's abilities to get through the totem, so they would in fact have to choreograph their movement to all make it through every round.
It's potential range (up to 360' !!!!)
You get one round of healing at that range, after 9 rounds of not healing at that range. And to be fair, if you were getting healing all along that range, that means someone (who started 60' from the caster) was probably using their entire movement (most races get 30') to keep up with it and the caster used his bonus action for 10 straight rounds to move it.
uses per round (no max !!!!)
Each creature that the caster chooses to heal can be healed only once in a turn. And each creature cannot be healed above their hit point maximum.
and number of creatures affected (no max !!!!)
My party doesn't have an infinite number of PCs in it.
True that the limits of the spell are not given by the text of the spell. But, that does not in fact mean that it is unlimited, just that the limits are from the positioning, damage, and tactics of the PCs and NPCs in and around it.
And as the creators have said, published adventures (and the rules for creating encounters that are also published in official content) assume that players come in to each encounter with all resources because the creators cannot be certain of when groups would have found the ability to take rests or make use of other resources. That means that non-combat healing is... expected, whether it is at the cost of only a 2nd level spell slot, or only gold, or only time or only hit dice or only whatever else you may have spent for that healing.
I don't disagree that it is more powerful than other healing options available to similar level PCs. But who really cares? Clerics because they're not the spotlight of healing? Are you really going to begrudge a ranger that all of the sudden becomes good at out of combat healing who before that wasn't great at anything (according to popular belief)? Other than not feeling like a super healer - which clerics (even life domain) should be more than anyway - what is the cleric missing out on? Is anyone else missing out on anything because your party got healed? Or is this spell just a disgruntled DM problem?
I think it's time to give it a rest. This spell isn't so bad.
Quick side question, the spell heals any creature that enters or starts it's turn in the space. If the party is going to try and cheese the spell during combat to heal a bunch.....what is to stop a monster or other enemy from moving into the space and staying there until removed? Like, it can be moved by the caster once a round, but that's about it.
The spell, RAW reads "Until the spell ends, whenever you or a creature you can see moves into the spirit’s space for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, you can cause the spirit to restore 1d6 hit points to that creature (no action required)." In other words, if the caster doesn't want another creature to be healed, they won't be.
Nice try, though.
Seriously, though this falls on the DM. I read somewhere that each encounter was designed to consume roughly a third of the character's resources or some such. I've also read DM accounts of their games where their players will push through half a dozen encounters in a day crawling through a dungeon. How many spell slots does the party have? Most casters that have access to Healing Spirit recover spells after a long rest which means that they should be going into at least a couple of encounters per LR with limited resources. I'm also willing to bet that parties with a character with Healing Spirit don't stack up on potions either.
I have a Druid in my party that does this all the time and the last time she tried it the party got through the HS once each and then the BBEG cast a Bonfire on it. Now every time someone wanted their 1D6 +2 Healing they had to make a Dex Save or take 2D8 fire damage! Sure, she moved it every round but Bonfire is a Cantrip so the BBEG just recast it every round and now the party has to play whack-a-Heal to get to the HS.
Grease is great for this. So is Cloud of Daggers.
Besides, if a party WANTS to take more time between encounters, what's the DM going to do, bum-rush the party EVERY DAY? Really? Try this and you'll soon find your players grumbling that their characters are going out for a day and then returning to their town/fortress base camp right away.
Just assume that your PCs are going to start each battle with full HP and get on with it.
Seriously, though this falls on the DM. I read somewhere that each encounter was designed to consume roughly a third of the character's resources or some such.
That's not a thing.
I have a Druid in my party that does this all the time and the last time she tried it the party got through the HS once each and then the BBEG cast a Bonfire on it. Now every time someone wanted their 1D6 +2 Healing they had to make a Dex Save or take 2D8 fire damage!
This only kinda-sorta works if the monsters have magic, and the in-combat healing isn't the problem people have with the spell. It's the out-of-combat part.
Besides, if a party WANTS to take more time between encounters, what's the DM going to do, bum-rush the party EVERY DAY? Really? Try this and you'll soon find your players grumbling that their characters are going out for a day and then returning to their town/fortress base camp right away.
A lot (most?) adventures have some sense of urgency in their plot hooks. If you try to stall in Curse of Strahd don't be surprised when Strahd shows up. The longer you stay in the dungeon in Dead In Thay, the higher the alert level of the dungeon goes up; leave it for an extended period of time and you'll find the monsters have been replaced and traps reset. I doubt the dragon cultists in Hoard of the Dragon Queen, giants in Storm King's Thunder or elemental cults in Princes of the Apocalypse will wait forever either.
We are talking about max capabilities, not contingencies due to situation. No choreographing is necessary because the rules allow creatures to move through the space of friendly creatures on their turn if they have the distance remaining to arrive in a free space beyond, which, unless either the spirit is completely blocked by enemies, there is some kind of barrier erected (almost never when out of combat), or a veritable shoulder to shoulder army stands within the dash movement range of the spirit's space, the creatures will always have. The range limit is dependent on how many rounds and direction by the caster, and creature and uses limits are dependent on how many creatures are actually there and whether it is expedient for them to move so as to benefit, of course, but the point is that ALL friendlies within movement range CAN benefit from it, and every single creature within range on each of their turns each round for up to ten consecutive rounds CAN benefit, costing no action at all for the caster, which makes it WAY TOO POWERFUL for a 2nd level spell.
If you think no one cares about a game becoming this imbalanced, I don't know what to tell you. The DM is not going to be happy when a series of encounters can continue non-stop if time is supposed to be an element players must manage well, when overpowered foes must constantly be used to make encounters adequately challenging for the party, or when the party decides the healing potions the party schemed and fought well to uncover in a treasure haul should be traded in for something more useful. The druid might be happy, and characters per recovering lost hp, but not the wizard who just got killed, the barbarian who has just used up his rages prematurely, or paladin who has used all his divine smites, or the sorcerer who is out of spell slots, all before the climax of an encounter because the DM had to throw CR+ monsters into every preamble encounter to compensate for the nearly instant health recovery available to a third level party. Not to mention the said life cleric who chose that class and domain because he wanted to play the pillar character who the party relies on to bail them out of health/condition crises, thereby gaining respect for his deity among the non-believers in the game world...forget that, we'll use you as an afterthought fallback in case the ranger is unconscious. Game balance is essential to making it fun for everyone, allowing all the color of resourceful characterization and cohesive party interaction to blossom, and making all the interactive mechanics work as designed.
Seriously, though this falls on the DM. I read somewhere that each encounter was designed to consume roughly a third of the character's resources or some such.
That's not a thing.
I have a Druid in my party that does this all the time and the last time she tried it the party got through the HS once each and then the BBEG cast a Bonfire on it. Now every time someone wanted their 1D6 +2 Healing they had to make a Dex Save or take 2D8 fire damage!
This only kinda-sorta works if the monsters have magic, and the in-combat healing isn't the problem people have with the spell. It's the out-of-combat part.
Besides, if a party WANTS to take more time between encounters, what's the DM going to do, bum-rush the party EVERY DAY? Really? Try this and you'll soon find your players grumbling that their characters are going out for a day and then returning to their town/fortress base camp right away.
A lot (most?) adventures have some sense of urgency in their plot hooks. If you try to stall in Curse of Strahd don't be surprised when Strahd shows up. The longer you stay in the dungeon in Dead In Thay, the higher the alert level of the dungeon goes up; leave it for an extended period of time and you'll find the monsters have been replaced and traps reset. I doubt the dragon cultists in Hoard of the Dragon Queen, giants in Storm King's Thunder or elemental cults in Princes of the Apocalypse will wait forever either.
And every adventure you cited is a pre-printed one. If A DM uses this vehicle every adventure then I can see the players leaving the game pretty soon. As I player, I don't like being rushed and since I'm big on player agency if the DM twists my arm too hard on this then I go looking for another game.
The players will do what they want to do. If you try to drag them through an adventure at YOUR pace you might get away with it once in a while but with all the players I know it wouldn't work every time.
BTW of the adventures cited I've only played Strahd and among the people I know and have chatted with it's widely considered a terrible adventure. If that's your benchmark then I'm sorry.
The spell, RAW reads "Until the spell ends, whenever you or a creature you can see moves into the spirit’s space for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, you can cause the spirit to restore 1d6 hit points to that creature (no action required)." In other words, if the caster doesn't want another creature to be healed, they won't be.
True, but a monster sitting in the aura prevents friendlies from using it, most characters can not enter the space of a hostile creature.
Other spell effects on the aura may prevent it as well, like the ones you mentioned. My thought is a moonbeam is nearly identical mechanically. If an opposing character casts a moonbeam on your healing spirit and just uses its bonus action to move the beam every time that you chose to, then that negates the healing it provides as well.
And every adventure you cited is a pre-printed one. If A DM uses this vehicle every adventure then I can see the players leaving the game pretty soon. As I player, I don't like being rushed and since I'm big on player agency if the DM twists my arm too hard on this then I go looking for another game.
So? Pre-printed adventures sell, so clearly people are playing them. Even for a completely homebrew adventure you're not going to get infinite time to complete your objectives all the time. There's no tension in that. Both the wilderness and dungeons are dangerous places to rest in.
BTW of the adventures cited I've only played Strahd and among the people I know and have chatted with it's widely considered a terrible adventure. If that's your benchmark then I'm sorry.
Could just be the case gothic horror isn't your jam or the DM didn't know how to run it. Bold of you to assume your friends' tastes are universal. I've run it twice for two different groups with no complaints.
We are talking about max capabilities, not contingencies due to situation.
Lots of spells are way more powerful in theory than in practice... In theory, moonbeam's damage well outpaces any healing by this spell...
If you think no one cares about a game becoming this imbalanced, I don't know what to tell you.
Fireball has been in the game since the PHB came out, i don't know what to tell you about Wizard's thoughts on balance, other than "sometimes it is ok if there is something better than other options."
And every adventure you cited is a pre-printed one. If A DM uses this vehicle every adventure then I can see the players leaving the game pretty soon. As I player, I don't like being rushed and since I'm big on player agency if the DM twists my arm too hard on this then I go looking for another game.
So? Pre-printed adventures sell, so clearly people are playing them. Even for a completely homebrew adventure you're not going to get infinite time to complete your objectives all the time. There's no tension in that. Both the wilderness and dungeons are dangerous places to rest in.
BTW of the adventures cited I've only played Strahd and among the people I know and have chatted with it's widely considered a terrible adventure. If that's your benchmark then I'm sorry.
Could just be the case gothic horror isn't your jam or the DM didn't know how to run it. Bold of you to assume your friends' tastes are universal. I've run it twice for two different groups with no complaints.
"Even for a completely homebrew adventure you're not going to get infinite time to complete your objectives all the time."
You're absolutely right. However, the complaint with HS seems to be that players use it out of combat ALL THE TIME. Nothing in this game should be happening 'all the time.' Your players should have a sense of urgency during some adventures and be able to move at their own pace for others.
As for gothic horror not being my bag, I've read through the CoS module once and played in it twice. From what I remember the module itself was rife with errors (rooms mismarked on maps, some rooms not described at all etc). Then there was the fact that there was a misty shroud preventing the PCs from leaving if they wanted to...likely the most heavy-handed vehicle ever. 'You arrive here and you CANNOT leave until you defeat Strahd.' Really? Okay...he's a vampire. He has to drink blood to survive and I don't think animals count. So we'll kill everyone so he starves or comes after us (trying to face Strahd on our terms and having him chicken out was our main frustration). Of course, our DM was also not the best but simply reading over the module will reveal a host of issues. If you're willing to overlook them then that's fine but as a writer I'm a little fussier when I pay money for something.
Seriously, though this falls on the DM. I read somewhere that each encounter was designed to consume roughly a third of the character's resources or some such.
That's not a thing.
I have a Druid in my party that does this all the time and the last time she tried it the party got through the HS once each and then the BBEG cast a Bonfire on it. Now every time someone wanted their 1D6 +2 Healing they had to make a Dex Save or take 2D8 fire damage!
And every adventure you cited is a pre-printed one. If A DM uses this vehicle every adventure then I can see the players leaving the game pretty soon. As I player, I don't like being rushed and since I'm big on player agency if the DM twists my arm too hard on this then I go looking for another game.
The players will do what they want to do. If you try to drag them through an adventure at YOUR pace you might get away with it once in a while but with all the players I know it wouldn't work every time.
BTW of the adventures cited I've only played Strahd and among the people I know and have chatted with it's widely considered a terrible adventure. If that's your benchmark then I'm sorry.
He stated adventures that are quite popular - they sell well and people enjoy playing them. The consequence for taking your sweet time to achieve objectives makes sense. If you take too long, bad shit happens. It isn't the GM twisting your arm, it's the GM making the world realistic.
Not everybody likes gothic horror and it's possible you had a bad GM. I'm running COS with my group now and they're loving it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Some people here said that out-of-combat healing is negligible anyway. I would say the opposite. I must admit I have limited experience as I am only a player in two campaigns, but in my experience the enemies always hit harder than any in-combat-heal can fix. In-combat, the best options are either healing people after they go unconscious, or avoiding the damage by disabling/killing enemies or using utility spells. PCs are mostly healed between fights. Most of the times we did not have enough time for a short rest (1h uninterrupted "cast") after each fight. As a thunder cleric, when I prepared Prayer of Healing (10 mins uninterrupted cast), even that was risky and seemed to take too long, but since the damage usually spread it seemed worth it. If our new druid can take Healing Spirit (1 min channel) that would definitely change the game. The other campaign is based on just PHB content, no cleric and we did not have the chance to abuse the Goodberry trick yet.
I have the impression that most people in this thread who argue against Healing Spirit's usefulness have completely different campaigns where enemies are harmless and can be counter-healed in-combat, or have no time constraints making short rests abundant. Or my DMs are exceptionally murderous and pressing time.
It sounds like the main complaint here is that it's "broken" because it replaces short rests for out of combat healing (the spell sounding less solid in combat in practice, since having the complete freedom of mobility to heal everyone every turn is not always the case between area denial, opportunity attacks, or the enemies preventing access to the spirit, basically there's a lot going on here that can prevent it from being broken in combat).
So, focusing on the out of combat benefits, yes, it can replace short rests early on in the game when health totals don't yet exceed 10d6. That said, you are still spending resources to recover those hit points. Of the only two classes that have access to healing spirit, one of them (Rangers) have a pretty limited pool of spell slots to begin with, especially early on in the game where HS is most useful. A 2nd level spell slot represents a significant portion of their spellcasting ability, and they probably don't want to blow that between every combat just to save an hour. It could even be that they already used that slot 7 times out of 10, so outright replacing short rests is just not in the cards. In cases where a ranger does decide that a quick heal is worth one of their few remaining level 2's, I'd say the cost is relatively equivalent to the benefit. Because, even with the spell instead of the rest, all you're recovering are hit points. Your monk isn't recovering kind points, your warlock is still out of spells, and you're down a 2nd level slot. All you save is time, so it's really only useful when everyone's significantly wounded and time is of the essence. I'll grant you that does happen, but a spell optimized for a specific situation at the cost of resources DOESN'T sound broken to me.
As for our good friend the druid, the whole scarcity of spell slots thing doesn't necessarily apply since they're main casters, but I'll also say the druid is a pretty lackluster healer on its own, honestly it needed something that could help druids compete with other healers, and it could be more broken than "good out of combat healing." Even for them, it's an ok healing spell in combat that they can use while wild shaped, but generally druids also have something better to concentrate on in combat unless someone's dying.
All in all, I think on paper it seems broken, but in practice you'd only rarely be able to use it to that extent.
It sounds like the main complaint here is that it's "broken" because it replaces short rests for out of combat healing (the spell sounding less solid in combat in practice, since having the complete freedom of mobility to heal everyone every turn is not always the case between area denial, opportunity attacks, or the enemies preventing access to the spirit, basically there's a lot going on here that can prevent it from being broken in combat).
Incorrect. If you are able to heal more than 1 target before losing concentration (which is going to be basically always), you are instantly outperforming every other healer's capabilities while using less resources. Bottom line: it's a broken spell.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
It sounds like the main complaint here is that it's "broken" because it replaces short rests for out of combat healing (the spell sounding less solid in combat in practice, since having the complete freedom of mobility to heal everyone every turn is not always the case between area denial, opportunity attacks, or the enemies preventing access to the spirit, basically there's a lot going on here that can prevent it from being broken in combat).
Incorrect. If you are able to heal more than 1 target before losing concentration (which is going to be basically always), you are instantly outperforming every other healer's capabilities while using less resources. Bottom line: it's a broken spell.
Is it going to be always though? Bearing in mind you can only move it 30ft per turn, and that's *if* you aren't using your bonus action (which Rangers usually always are), with people spread all over the battlefield? There's a very real chance that not everyone is going to drop what they're doing and or provoke opportunity attacks for a measly d6 of healing once a turn. The physical restrictions of the spell are fairly limiting, since positioning in combat can be vital. I mean, no amount of single d6's is going to save you if your party gets hit by a fireball cause they're all clustered around a 5 foot square.
Plus, healing in combat is really only useful in two situations; the first is when you get knocked unconscious and get healed before you have a chance to fail any death saves. Getting someone back on their feet, even at low HP, is life-saving.it allows someone to make it through the rest of the fight and the proper healing can be done once. The second type is just like, massive amounts of high level healing, like a paladin dumping all their lay on hands into someone or a 6th level cure wounds. That basically gives a character a new lease on life, but at a great cost.
Any healing that doesn't fall into either of those categories is of debatable usefulness. That said, Healing Spirit is NOT a great spell for either of those cases. At 2nd level and concentration, the cost is a little too steep for just dragging someone off the ground when a level 1 cure wounds could do, and nobody has 10 turns to stand completely still and heal back up to full while hoping the enemies just don't notice.
Finally, I find the "1 target before losing concentration" requirement arbitrary. Spells like Moonbeam or Flaming Sphere can conditionally deal damage to multiple targets on concentration, it seems only natural that a spell should exist that does that with healing. Also, since it's such a negligible amount of healing, I don't see how it's automatically broken because if it's ability to somewhat heal multiple targets. And yes, in some instances it us really good, but as I say in my original post, those situations are not going to come around so often as you think. The only reason other healing spells can't heal multiple targets on one concentration is that they are meant for in-combat healing, whereas I think circumstances show healing spirit to be much more of an out of combat healing spell.
Dude, if you can't see how a Ranger being capable of being a better healer than full casters devoted to healing is a huge !%#@ing problem, I don't know what to say other than "stay in your lane". 🤦♂️🤷♂️
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
It sounds like the main complaint here is that it's "broken" because it replaces short rests for out of combat healing (the spell sounding less solid in combat in practice, since having the complete freedom of mobility to heal everyone every turn is not always the case between area denial, opportunity attacks, or the enemies preventing access to the spirit, basically there's a lot going on here that can prevent it from being broken in combat).
Incorrect. If you are able to heal more than 1 target before losing concentration (which is going to be basically always), you are instantly outperforming every other healer's capabilities while using less resources. Bottom line: it's a broken spell.
Incorrect. A level 2 cure wounds is >3 rounds of healing from this spell. Aid is worth ~4 heals of this spell. Lesser restoration is infinitely more valuable to a paralyzed or poisoned PC.
And in combat, keeping an enemy in the area or another spell effect tracking with it can negate all of its healing (except maybe on the initial cast). As I pointed out, a moonbeam will put out nearly 3 times the damage that this spell heals.
Bottom line. It isn’t the only “broken” spell in the game, and in spite of that, the game still works. Full stop.
Dude, if you can't see how a Ranger being capable of being a better healer than full casters devoted to healing is a huge !%#@ing problem, I don't know what to say other than "stay in your lane". 🤦♂️🤷♂️
I just don't see this one spell making any class "better" than another whole class with abilities and multiple spell options. As I've stated before above, the spell is totally NOT optimized for combat, and the majority of the time any other healing spell is what you want in a fight.
It allows rangers to heal over time, and just a little bit, over a LOT of time. That's not going to do you a lick of good in a fight, seven times out of 10.
Bear in mind that most fights last an average of 3 to 4 turns. Rolling an average of 4 points per turn, and by some miracle everyone has had access to the area of the spell EVERY TURN, you'll only heal an average of 16HP per character.
Excuse me if I don't write clerics out of the game over 16hp.
I play a grave domain cleric in a high level campaign. I started at level 8 and am now level 10. Given the grave domain's ability to spare the dying at range as a Bonus Action cantrip and the fact that my healing spells are maxed out when healing an unconscious ally, I went into that character with the intent to only heal downed allies. The rest of the time, I intended to provide support, ie: Hold Person, Lesser Restoration, Remove Curse, Bestow Curse, Silence, Dispel Magic, Holy Weapon, etc...
I have YET to cast a healing spell during combat and we are very successful as a group. A cleric is by far more useful managing conditions on allies or inflicting conditions on enemies than would ever be trying to heal during combat. The damage enemies put out far surpasses healing capabilities.
The whole trope that a cleric should be a better healer than a ranger or a druid is the problem, not the Healing Spirit spell. If another ally starts healing, that frees up my conscious even more to do things that are WAY more effective.
As for being a DM, I run an offline Out of the Abyss campaign that includes a ranger. I just found out said ranger took Healing Spirit and he used it last battle to sit in it at range after he took a series of devastating hits. (Reason I'm reading this thread, btw.) I already know what I'm going to do if the ranger starts abusing the spell to heal up allies out of combat scenarios:
I will increase the quantity of combat scenarios in a given day. XP budget stays the same, but more easier encounters to chip away at HP. If the Ranger wants to burn his level 2 spell slots to abuse Healing Spirit, that works for me.
I play a grave domain cleric in a high level campaign. I started at level 8 and am now level 10. Given the grave domain's ability to spare the dying at range as a Bonus Action cantrip and the fact that my healing spells are maxed out when healing an unconscious ally, I went into that character with the intent to only heal downed allies. The rest of the time, I intended to provide support, ie: Hold Person, Lesser Restoration, Remove Curse, Bestow Curse, Silence, Dispel Magic, Holy Weapon, etc...
I have YET to cast a healing spell during combat and we are very successful as a group. A cleric is by far more useful managing conditions on allies or inflicting conditions on enemies than would ever be trying to heal during combat. The damage enemies put out far surpasses healing capabilities.
The whole trope that a cleric should be a better healer than a ranger or a druid is the problem, not the Healing Spirit spell. If another ally starts healing, that frees up my conscious even more to do things that are WAY more effective.
As for being a DM, I run an offline Out of the Abyss campaign that includes a ranger. I just found out said ranger took Healing Spirit and he used it last battle to sit in it at range after he took a series of devastating hits. (Reason I'm reading this thread, btw.) I already know what I'm going to do if the ranger starts abusing the spell to heal up allies out of combat scenarios:
I will increase the quantity of combat scenarios in a given day. XP budget stays the same, but more easier encounters to chip away at HP. If the Ranger wants to burn his level 2 spell slots to abuse Healing Spirit, that works for me.
I agree with everything you say here aside from classifying OOC uses of healing spirit as abusing it. I think using a 2nd level slot for healing without the benefits of a short rest is cost enough. If they're doing it when they could have just rested and aren't pressed for time, I'd say they're wasting a spell slot. If they are using it because they're pressed for time, I'd say that's good resource management and problem solving, no need to punish.
But then again, you're the DM. As long as the XP values stay the same, it's still fair, do whatever you think is a good challenge.
Broken like nothing ever before or since. Each friendly creature within range can gain an average of 35 hp of healing...FROM A SECOND LEVEL SPELL. They would not have to choreograph anything, dance, or even think beyond "I'm going through the spirit" on their turn. For even just a party of four, it would take 16 Cure Wounds spells from a Wis18 cleric or nine 3rd level paladins exhausting all their lay on hands to accomplish the same amount of magical healing. The single casting of one 2nd level spell in one minute of time would provide on average 20 hp more healing than an average short rest of one hour featuring all four characters with 4d8 +2Con expending ALL of their available hit dice. In combat, it could heal 1d6 hp multiple times per round at an increasing distance up to 360' away as a bonus action for up to ten consecutive rounds, compared to Healing Word 1d4+prof hp up to 30' away only once, at one spell level below it. If you've played this game more than a few hours you can see that the spell is pulverized into atomic particles kind of broken. It's potential range (up to 360' !!!!), uses per round (no max !!!!), and number of creatures affected (no max !!!!) are all either unprecedented in the game or light years beyond suitable for its level.
There are several ways to fix and a DM could offer a druid their choice when they first access the spell:
1. A total number of creatures equal to your Wisdom modifier can benefit from the spirit's healing (minimum of 2 creatures). The spirit heals an additional d6 for every two levels above 2nd the spell is cast.
2. A creature must start its turn in the spirit's space to gain the healing benefit, and the spirit cannot be moved. At higher levels the spell grants an additional 1d6 healing per level above 2nd.
3. The spirit heals a number of hit points you determine for each creature affected. The spirit vanishes after it grants 16 + 1d6 hp of healing. When cast at higher levels, the maximum healing increases by 1d6 per level above 2nd.
Assuming the damage to the party was evenly spread around so that each friendly creature actually needs that much healing.
Except for the part where they would have to make sure to not interfere with each of the other party member's abilities to get through the totem, so they would in fact have to choreograph their movement to all make it through every round.
You get one round of healing at that range, after 9 rounds of not healing at that range. And to be fair, if you were getting healing all along that range, that means someone (who started 60' from the caster) was probably using their entire movement (most races get 30') to keep up with it and the caster used his bonus action for 10 straight rounds to move it.
Each creature that the caster chooses to heal can be healed only once in a turn. And each creature cannot be healed above their hit point maximum.
My party doesn't have an infinite number of PCs in it.
True that the limits of the spell are not given by the text of the spell. But, that does not in fact mean that it is unlimited, just that the limits are from the positioning, damage, and tactics of the PCs and NPCs in and around it.
And as the creators have said, published adventures (and the rules for creating encounters that are also published in official content) assume that players come in to each encounter with all resources because the creators cannot be certain of when groups would have found the ability to take rests or make use of other resources. That means that non-combat healing is... expected, whether it is at the cost of only a 2nd level spell slot, or only gold, or only time or only hit dice or only whatever else you may have spent for that healing.
I don't disagree that it is more powerful than other healing options available to similar level PCs. But who really cares? Clerics because they're not the spotlight of healing? Are you really going to begrudge a ranger that all of the sudden becomes good at out of combat healing who before that wasn't great at anything (according to popular belief)? Other than not feeling like a super healer - which clerics (even life domain) should be more than anyway - what is the cleric missing out on? Is anyone else missing out on anything because your party got healed? Or is this spell just a disgruntled DM problem?
I think it's time to give it a rest. This spell isn't so bad.
The spell, RAW reads "Until the spell ends, whenever you or a creature you can see moves into the spirit’s space for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, you can cause the spirit to restore 1d6 hit points to that creature (no action required)." In other words, if the caster doesn't want another creature to be healed, they won't be.
Nice try, though.
Seriously, though this falls on the DM. I read somewhere that each encounter was designed to consume roughly a third of the character's resources or some such. I've also read DM accounts of their games where their players will push through half a dozen encounters in a day crawling through a dungeon. How many spell slots does the party have? Most casters that have access to Healing Spirit recover spells after a long rest which means that they should be going into at least a couple of encounters per LR with limited resources. I'm also willing to bet that parties with a character with Healing Spirit don't stack up on potions either.
I have a Druid in my party that does this all the time and the last time she tried it the party got through the HS once each and then the BBEG cast a Bonfire on it. Now every time someone wanted their 1D6 +2 Healing they had to make a Dex Save or take 2D8 fire damage! Sure, she moved it every round but Bonfire is a Cantrip so the BBEG just recast it every round and now the party has to play whack-a-Heal to get to the HS.
Grease is great for this. So is Cloud of Daggers.
Besides, if a party WANTS to take more time between encounters, what's the DM going to do, bum-rush the party EVERY DAY? Really? Try this and you'll soon find your players grumbling that their characters are going out for a day and then returning to their town/fortress base camp right away.
Just assume that your PCs are going to start each battle with full HP and get on with it.
That's not a thing.
This only kinda-sorta works if the monsters have magic, and the in-combat healing isn't the problem people have with the spell. It's the out-of-combat part.
A lot (most?) adventures have some sense of urgency in their plot hooks. If you try to stall in Curse of Strahd don't be surprised when Strahd shows up. The longer you stay in the dungeon in Dead In Thay, the higher the alert level of the dungeon goes up; leave it for an extended period of time and you'll find the monsters have been replaced and traps reset. I doubt the dragon cultists in Hoard of the Dragon Queen, giants in Storm King's Thunder or elemental cults in Princes of the Apocalypse will wait forever either.
We are talking about max capabilities, not contingencies due to situation. No choreographing is necessary because the rules allow creatures to move through the space of friendly creatures on their turn if they have the distance remaining to arrive in a free space beyond, which, unless either the spirit is completely blocked by enemies, there is some kind of barrier erected (almost never when out of combat), or a veritable shoulder to shoulder army stands within the dash movement range of the spirit's space, the creatures will always have. The range limit is dependent on how many rounds and direction by the caster, and creature and uses limits are dependent on how many creatures are actually there and whether it is expedient for them to move so as to benefit, of course, but the point is that ALL friendlies within movement range CAN benefit from it, and every single creature within range on each of their turns each round for up to ten consecutive rounds CAN benefit, costing no action at all for the caster, which makes it WAY TOO POWERFUL for a 2nd level spell.
If you think no one cares about a game becoming this imbalanced, I don't know what to tell you. The DM is not going to be happy when a series of encounters can continue non-stop if time is supposed to be an element players must manage well, when overpowered foes must constantly be used to make encounters adequately challenging for the party, or when the party decides the healing potions the party schemed and fought well to uncover in a treasure haul should be traded in for something more useful. The druid might be happy, and characters per recovering lost hp, but not the wizard who just got killed, the barbarian who has just used up his rages prematurely, or paladin who has used all his divine smites, or the sorcerer who is out of spell slots, all before the climax of an encounter because the DM had to throw CR+ monsters into every preamble encounter to compensate for the nearly instant health recovery available to a third level party. Not to mention the said life cleric who chose that class and domain because he wanted to play the pillar character who the party relies on to bail them out of health/condition crises, thereby gaining respect for his deity among the non-believers in the game world...forget that, we'll use you as an afterthought fallback in case the ranger is unconscious. Game balance is essential to making it fun for everyone, allowing all the color of resourceful characterization and cohesive party interaction to blossom, and making all the interactive mechanics work as designed.
And every adventure you cited is a pre-printed one. If A DM uses this vehicle every adventure then I can see the players leaving the game pretty soon. As I player, I don't like being rushed and since I'm big on player agency if the DM twists my arm too hard on this then I go looking for another game.
The players will do what they want to do. If you try to drag them through an adventure at YOUR pace you might get away with it once in a while but with all the players I know it wouldn't work every time.
BTW of the adventures cited I've only played Strahd and among the people I know and have chatted with it's widely considered a terrible adventure. If that's your benchmark then I'm sorry.
True, but a monster sitting in the aura prevents friendlies from using it, most characters can not enter the space of a hostile creature.
Other spell effects on the aura may prevent it as well, like the ones you mentioned. My thought is a moonbeam is nearly identical mechanically. If an opposing character casts a moonbeam on your healing spirit and just uses its bonus action to move the beam every time that you chose to, then that negates the healing it provides as well.
So? Pre-printed adventures sell, so clearly people are playing them. Even for a completely homebrew adventure you're not going to get infinite time to complete your objectives all the time. There's no tension in that. Both the wilderness and dungeons are dangerous places to rest in.
Could just be the case gothic horror isn't your jam or the DM didn't know how to run it. Bold of you to assume your friends' tastes are universal. I've run it twice for two different groups with no complaints.
Lots of spells are way more powerful in theory than in practice... In theory, moonbeam's damage well outpaces any healing by this spell...
Fireball has been in the game since the PHB came out, i don't know what to tell you about Wizard's thoughts on balance, other than "sometimes it is ok if there is something better than other options."
"Even for a completely homebrew adventure you're not going to get infinite time to complete your objectives all the time."
You're absolutely right. However, the complaint with HS seems to be that players use it out of combat ALL THE TIME. Nothing in this game should be happening 'all the time.' Your players should have a sense of urgency during some adventures and be able to move at their own pace for others.
As for gothic horror not being my bag, I've read through the CoS module once and played in it twice. From what I remember the module itself was rife with errors (rooms mismarked on maps, some rooms not described at all etc). Then there was the fact that there was a misty shroud preventing the PCs from leaving if they wanted to...likely the most heavy-handed vehicle ever. 'You arrive here and you CANNOT leave until you defeat Strahd.' Really? Okay...he's a vampire. He has to drink blood to survive and I don't think animals count. So we'll kill everyone so he starves or comes after us (trying to face Strahd on our terms and having him chicken out was our main frustration). Of course, our DM was also not the best but simply reading over the module will reveal a host of issues. If you're willing to overlook them then that's fine but as a writer I'm a little fussier when I pay money for something.
He stated adventures that are quite popular - they sell well and people enjoy playing them. The consequence for taking your sweet time to achieve objectives makes sense. If you take too long, bad shit happens. It isn't the GM twisting your arm, it's the GM making the world realistic.
Not everybody likes gothic horror and it's possible you had a bad GM. I'm running COS with my group now and they're loving it.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Some people here said that out-of-combat healing is negligible anyway. I would say the opposite. I must admit I have limited experience as I am only a player in two campaigns, but in my experience the enemies always hit harder than any in-combat-heal can fix. In-combat, the best options are either healing people after they go unconscious, or avoiding the damage by disabling/killing enemies or using utility spells. PCs are mostly healed between fights. Most of the times we did not have enough time for a short rest (1h uninterrupted "cast") after each fight. As a thunder cleric, when I prepared Prayer of Healing (10 mins uninterrupted cast), even that was risky and seemed to take too long, but since the damage usually spread it seemed worth it. If our new druid can take Healing Spirit (1 min channel) that would definitely change the game. The other campaign is based on just PHB content, no cleric and we did not have the chance to abuse the Goodberry trick yet.
I have the impression that most people in this thread who argue against Healing Spirit's usefulness have completely different campaigns where enemies are harmless and can be counter-healed in-combat, or have no time constraints making short rests abundant. Or my DMs are exceptionally murderous and pressing time.
It sounds like the main complaint here is that it's "broken" because it replaces short rests for out of combat healing (the spell sounding less solid in combat in practice, since having the complete freedom of mobility to heal everyone every turn is not always the case between area denial, opportunity attacks, or the enemies preventing access to the spirit, basically there's a lot going on here that can prevent it from being broken in combat).
So, focusing on the out of combat benefits, yes, it can replace short rests early on in the game when health totals don't yet exceed 10d6. That said, you are still spending resources to recover those hit points. Of the only two classes that have access to healing spirit, one of them (Rangers) have a pretty limited pool of spell slots to begin with, especially early on in the game where HS is most useful. A 2nd level spell slot represents a significant portion of their spellcasting ability, and they probably don't want to blow that between every combat just to save an hour. It could even be that they already used that slot 7 times out of 10, so outright replacing short rests is just not in the cards. In cases where a ranger does decide that a quick heal is worth one of their few remaining level 2's, I'd say the cost is relatively equivalent to the benefit. Because, even with the spell instead of the rest, all you're recovering are hit points. Your monk isn't recovering kind points, your warlock is still out of spells, and you're down a 2nd level slot. All you save is time, so it's really only useful when everyone's significantly wounded and time is of the essence. I'll grant you that does happen, but a spell optimized for a specific situation at the cost of resources DOESN'T sound broken to me.
As for our good friend the druid, the whole scarcity of spell slots thing doesn't necessarily apply since they're main casters, but I'll also say the druid is a pretty lackluster healer on its own, honestly it needed something that could help druids compete with other healers, and it could be more broken than "good out of combat healing." Even for them, it's an ok healing spell in combat that they can use while wild shaped, but generally druids also have something better to concentrate on in combat unless someone's dying.
All in all, I think on paper it seems broken, but in practice you'd only rarely be able to use it to that extent.
Incorrect. If you are able to heal more than 1 target before losing concentration (which is going to be basically always), you are instantly outperforming every other healer's capabilities while using less resources. Bottom line: it's a broken spell.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Is it going to be always though? Bearing in mind you can only move it 30ft per turn, and that's *if* you aren't using your bonus action (which Rangers usually always are), with people spread all over the battlefield? There's a very real chance that not everyone is going to drop what they're doing and or provoke opportunity attacks for a measly d6 of healing once a turn. The physical restrictions of the spell are fairly limiting, since positioning in combat can be vital. I mean, no amount of single d6's is going to save you if your party gets hit by a fireball cause they're all clustered around a 5 foot square.
Plus, healing in combat is really only useful in two situations; the first is when you get knocked unconscious and get healed before you have a chance to fail any death saves. Getting someone back on their feet, even at low HP, is life-saving.it allows someone to make it through the rest of the fight and the proper healing can be done once. The second type is just like, massive amounts of high level healing, like a paladin dumping all their lay on hands into someone or a 6th level cure wounds. That basically gives a character a new lease on life, but at a great cost.
Any healing that doesn't fall into either of those categories is of debatable usefulness. That said, Healing Spirit is NOT a great spell for either of those cases. At 2nd level and concentration, the cost is a little too steep for just dragging someone off the ground when a level 1 cure wounds could do, and nobody has 10 turns to stand completely still and heal back up to full while hoping the enemies just don't notice.
Finally, I find the "1 target before losing concentration" requirement arbitrary. Spells like Moonbeam or Flaming Sphere can conditionally deal damage to multiple targets on concentration, it seems only natural that a spell should exist that does that with healing. Also, since it's such a negligible amount of healing, I don't see how it's automatically broken because if it's ability to somewhat heal multiple targets. And yes, in some instances it us really good, but as I say in my original post, those situations are not going to come around so often as you think. The only reason other healing spells can't heal multiple targets on one concentration is that they are meant for in-combat healing, whereas I think circumstances show healing spirit to be much more of an out of combat healing spell.
Dude, if you can't see how a Ranger being capable of being a better healer than full casters devoted to healing is a huge !%#@ing problem, I don't know what to say other than "stay in your lane". 🤦♂️🤷♂️
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Incorrect. A level 2 cure wounds is >3 rounds of healing from this spell. Aid is worth ~4 heals of this spell. Lesser restoration is infinitely more valuable to a paralyzed or poisoned PC.
And in combat, keeping an enemy in the area or another spell effect tracking with it can negate all of its healing (except maybe on the initial cast). As I pointed out, a moonbeam will put out nearly 3 times the damage that this spell heals.
Bottom line. It isn’t the only “broken” spell in the game, and in spite of that, the game still works. Full stop.
I just don't see this one spell making any class "better" than another whole class with abilities and multiple spell options. As I've stated before above, the spell is totally NOT optimized for combat, and the majority of the time any other healing spell is what you want in a fight.
It allows rangers to heal over time, and just a little bit, over a LOT of time. That's not going to do you a lick of good in a fight, seven times out of 10.
Bear in mind that most fights last an average of 3 to 4 turns. Rolling an average of 4 points per turn, and by some miracle everyone has had access to the area of the spell EVERY TURN, you'll only heal an average of 16HP per character.
Excuse me if I don't write clerics out of the game over 16hp.
I play a grave domain cleric in a high level campaign. I started at level 8 and am now level 10. Given the grave domain's ability to spare the dying at range as a Bonus Action cantrip and the fact that my healing spells are maxed out when healing an unconscious ally, I went into that character with the intent to only heal downed allies. The rest of the time, I intended to provide support, ie: Hold Person, Lesser Restoration, Remove Curse, Bestow Curse, Silence, Dispel Magic, Holy Weapon, etc...
I have YET to cast a healing spell during combat and we are very successful as a group. A cleric is by far more useful managing conditions on allies or inflicting conditions on enemies than would ever be trying to heal during combat. The damage enemies put out far surpasses healing capabilities.
The whole trope that a cleric should be a better healer than a ranger or a druid is the problem, not the Healing Spirit spell. If another ally starts healing, that frees up my conscious even more to do things that are WAY more effective.
As for being a DM, I run an offline Out of the Abyss campaign that includes a ranger. I just found out said ranger took Healing Spirit and he used it last battle to sit in it at range after he took a series of devastating hits. (Reason I'm reading this thread, btw.) I already know what I'm going to do if the ranger starts abusing the spell to heal up allies out of combat scenarios:
I will increase the quantity of combat scenarios in a given day. XP budget stays the same, but more easier encounters to chip away at HP. If the Ranger wants to burn his level 2 spell slots to abuse Healing Spirit, that works for me.
I agree with everything you say here aside from classifying OOC uses of healing spirit as abusing it. I think using a 2nd level slot for healing without the benefits of a short rest is cost enough. If they're doing it when they could have just rested and aren't pressed for time, I'd say they're wasting a spell slot. If they are using it because they're pressed for time, I'd say that's good resource management and problem solving, no need to punish.
But then again, you're the DM. As long as the XP values stay the same, it's still fair, do whatever you think is a good challenge.