I don't want to get into a whole monk vs. rogue showdown, but I'm looking at two similar-seeming class features and wondering why one is unlimited-use and the other requires spending from a very limited pool which is also used for other crucial class features.
I'm considering house-ruling the monk's feature to be less restrictive, and would like evaluation as to how this might affect the game balance, in particular when acting next to a rogue in the same party.
At level 2, rogues get Cunning Action, which allows Dash, Disengage, or Hide as a bonus action for free every round.
Also at level 2, monks get Ki options Step of the Wind and Patient Defense, which allow Dash, Dodge, or Disengage as a bonus action at the cost of a "ki point".
Ki points are quite limited — only one per monk level. They recharge after a short rest, but I think it's quite expected to have more than character-level number of rounds of combats between short rests. And, I think uniquely, there's a special restriction on what you do during your rest (there must be at least half an hour dedicated to regaining ki). So, even if this were all that ki does, it seems quite restrictive — but it's also the case that it powers many of the monk's core features, including Flurry of Blows.
What is it about the monk class design that makes it important to "charge" so much for these bonus actions, compared to the rogue class design? Would it break things or be unfair to a) drop the restriction, b) make a second ki pool which can only be used for Flurry of Blows, leaving more for this stuff and other class features, or c) to change this to "as long as you have at least one ki point remaining"?
It's very difficult to address mechanics and balance issues on something as rules-expansive as D&D, but certain design choices can be noticed without too much effort, I believe.
For example, it is very easy to make a rogue who's entire battle strategy is to attack from hiding. Given a one attack per turn (barring dual wielding or magic), if Hide wasn't granted as a bonus action, such a strategy - very thematic of a rogue - would be severely limited in efficiency: one all-or-nothing attack every two rounds, needing both a hide roll and the attack roll to succeed to pull off properly.
Similarly, rogues are often in need to disengage or maneuver within the battlefield. They need to do so often and effectively.
Compare to the monk: Hiding is relevant only to a very specific subset of monks (shadow or ninja types), so relevant bonuses are only granted to such subclasses. On the contrary, the monk is often right up there to the opponent's face - practically, thus, no need for Hide, a much lesser need for Disengage, but an occasional need for Dodge. None of them, however, are pivotal to the monk's combat strategy - they are just occasionally needed. A monk is much better suited to a flurry of attacks with the occasional Stunning Strike, a strategy that often requires the majority of his ki. The rest are options for adapting to peculiar combat situations, and balance-wise, they should take away from his offensive capacity; ergo, requiring the same limited resource for maximum efficiency.
You'll notice I didn't mention Dash. The monk has a higher baseline of mobility than the rogue - additional movement speed. As such, if he had Dash at will, he would be undeniably better on all things mobility than a class that's practically the pinnacle of escape. Besides, quite early on, the monk gets the ability to run on water or up walls.
In conclusion, I think I touched on both thematic design and mechanics, and I believe the respective abilities are well handled in this case.
That said, I don't think anything will break if you remove or ease the limitations on the monk's mobility as a house rule, as long as you remember that by doing so, you indirectly (and visibly) increase the monk's offensive efficiency. I could only see problems if your party has both a rogue and a monk, mainly due to player complaints (voiced or not).
Because Monks aren't Rogues, and the two classes have very different goals and backgrounds.
Specific subclasses like the Swashbuckler or Inquisitive aside, the typical Rogue can't function in combat without an ally or places to hide. Without Sneak Attack, they're no better at attacking than a wizard, and they don't have a shield to defend themselves with. Despite that, it's a class that engages in risky activities: theft, espionage, assassination, scouting, trafficking contraband, and dungeoneering. Without Cunning Action, a Rogue that gets caught or cornered is dead.
Monks, on the other hand, are designed to be melee combatants. Their bonus attack lets them add their ability modifier to the damage, unlike two-weapon fighting. They can increase their offense with Flurry of Blows or their defense with Patient Defense starting at 2nd level. They get another offense and defense bump at 5th level with Extra Attack, d6 Martial Arts die and Stunning Strike. Because of that, Monks don't have a strong need to Disengage, even when outnumbered. Rogues can withstand one attack in a pinch with Uncanny Dodge, but after that they're going to take a beating.
What's more, I disagree that Ki points are very limited. They recover with a short rest, and a typical adventuring day has two of those, so in general you get 3 times your max Ki pool every day. Even at 2nd level, that's already 6 uses of Flurry of Blows or Patient Defense. By 5th level, that's 15 uses.
As Onyx points out, Monks already get increased movement, so they also have less need to Dash. Step of the Wind is just a bit of extra insurance to make sure they can get within melee range of another enemy, since unlike Rogues, they can't do their job well from a distance. It's also got a weaker version of the Jump built into it.
Dont change your monk. You wont see a change cause attacks uses bonus action just like flurry of blows.
Also. Ki points are back every short rests thats really fast. If you want to help the monk give em 15 minute shortrests instead.
Difference between rogue and monks...
Its in the attack. At level 5 mainly.
Rogue 2 attacks just damage boost only if ally nearby.
Monk 4 attacks. Attack 1 ki stun. Advantage and crits on all next moves that touches. All that with only 2 ki points if stunning worked. If it did not just add more ki points until stuns works. Because it can be done on all attacks.
Conclusion. Rogues are versatiles. Monks are damage dealers. Hence why it cost them ki points.
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DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
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Our 2c, getting to dodge as a bonus action would be broken if there was not a limit on it.
Imposing disadvantage on all attacks as a monk makes you a very effective tank.
The step of the wind thing is a bit muddier yes you have to pay for something rogues get for free but also you get to double your jump distance, this in the monk playstyle is useful more often than one might think. At the end of the day you're probably going to use step of the wind to go really fast and jump really far and that's probably situational, we don't disagree with it. Especially with the fact that Monk multiclass with Rogue is such an attractive option.
There are much fundamentals changes between rogue and monks... i don't see why you think they get the same as rogues. monks have multi attacks but are limited to their damage barely increasing over time and take sa lot of time. while rogues have many many ways to make their sneak attack worth it. and sneak attack levels up every 2 levels, which is much faster then the monks dice change. but monks with flurry of blows tends to do more attacks and hits more steadily.
rogues are more skill versatile then monks and they are versed in many other things like disarming traps and the liks. while monks are more move oriented with their wall running and their step of the wind. monks are more combat focused while rogues aren't.
of course if you only look at their cobat skills you will think that rogues are advantageous because they get it for free... but do they have 3 attacks at low level ? nope, they get maxium of 2 with dual wielding. so monks do more steady damage thanks to them have to throw more dice. same for crits, they have more chances because of more dice. if anything, the free bonus action of rogues is actually free to give them a bone they really need compared to other classes.
conclusion, stop looking only at damage and combat and look at the the rest of the game. you'll see that rogues shines much more out of combat then they do in combat. Monks are made to be in the face, while rogues are more survival oriented. those two are very fundamentals that literally makes both classes very different.
if you intend to see them as class types much like in video games... i'd say they can both tank in their own ways as they can both soak damages. but i'd also say they are like in DCUO where controllers are split into two very distinct categories of crowd controls. the controllers and the batteries. both are the same category, but both are very essentials and cannot be done as a mix. as they both do their own stuff that is essential to a raid. yet they are in the same category. the same is true here, they are both in the same category, but they are doing very different things in themselves and are both essentials in their ways.
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DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
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I don't want to get into a whole monk vs. rogue showdown, but I'm looking at two similar-seeming class features and wondering why one is unlimited-use and the other requires spending from a very limited pool which is also used for other crucial class features.
I'm considering house-ruling the monk's feature to be less restrictive, and would like evaluation as to how this might affect the game balance, in particular when acting next to a rogue in the same party.
At level 2, rogues get Cunning Action, which allows Dash, Disengage, or Hide as a bonus action for free every round.
Also at level 2, monks get Ki options Step of the Wind and Patient Defense, which allow Dash, Dodge, or Disengage as a bonus action at the cost of a "ki point".
Ki points are quite limited — only one per monk level. They recharge after a short rest, but I think it's quite expected to have more than character-level number of rounds of combats between short rests. And, I think uniquely, there's a special restriction on what you do during your rest (there must be at least half an hour dedicated to regaining ki). So, even if this were all that ki does, it seems quite restrictive — but it's also the case that it powers many of the monk's core features, including Flurry of Blows.
What is it about the monk class design that makes it important to "charge" so much for these bonus actions, compared to the rogue class design? Would it break things or be unfair to a) drop the restriction, b) make a second ki pool which can only be used for Flurry of Blows, leaving more for this stuff and other class features, or c) to change this to "as long as you have at least one ki point remaining"?
It's very difficult to address mechanics and balance issues on something as rules-expansive as D&D, but certain design choices can be noticed without too much effort, I believe.
For example, it is very easy to make a rogue who's entire battle strategy is to attack from hiding. Given a one attack per turn (barring dual wielding or magic), if Hide wasn't granted as a bonus action, such a strategy - very thematic of a rogue - would be severely limited in efficiency: one all-or-nothing attack every two rounds, needing both a hide roll and the attack roll to succeed to pull off properly.
Similarly, rogues are often in need to disengage or maneuver within the battlefield. They need to do so often and effectively.
Compare to the monk: Hiding is relevant only to a very specific subset of monks (shadow or ninja types), so relevant bonuses are only granted to such subclasses. On the contrary, the monk is often right up there to the opponent's face - practically, thus, no need for Hide, a much lesser need for Disengage, but an occasional need for Dodge. None of them, however, are pivotal to the monk's combat strategy - they are just occasionally needed. A monk is much better suited to a flurry of attacks with the occasional Stunning Strike, a strategy that often requires the majority of his ki. The rest are options for adapting to peculiar combat situations, and balance-wise, they should take away from his offensive capacity; ergo, requiring the same limited resource for maximum efficiency.
You'll notice I didn't mention Dash. The monk has a higher baseline of mobility than the rogue - additional movement speed. As such, if he had Dash at will, he would be undeniably better on all things mobility than a class that's practically the pinnacle of escape. Besides, quite early on, the monk gets the ability to run on water or up walls.
In conclusion, I think I touched on both thematic design and mechanics, and I believe the respective abilities are well handled in this case.
That said, I don't think anything will break if you remove or ease the limitations on the monk's mobility as a house rule, as long as you remember that by doing so, you indirectly (and visibly) increase the monk's offensive efficiency. I could only see problems if your party has both a rogue and a monk, mainly due to player complaints (voiced or not).
Because Monks aren't Rogues, and the two classes have very different goals and backgrounds.
Specific subclasses like the Swashbuckler or Inquisitive aside, the typical Rogue can't function in combat without an ally or places to hide. Without Sneak Attack, they're no better at attacking than a wizard, and they don't have a shield to defend themselves with. Despite that, it's a class that engages in risky activities: theft, espionage, assassination, scouting, trafficking contraband, and dungeoneering. Without Cunning Action, a Rogue that gets caught or cornered is dead.
Monks, on the other hand, are designed to be melee combatants. Their bonus attack lets them add their ability modifier to the damage, unlike two-weapon fighting. They can increase their offense with Flurry of Blows or their defense with Patient Defense starting at 2nd level. They get another offense and defense bump at 5th level with Extra Attack, d6 Martial Arts die and Stunning Strike. Because of that, Monks don't have a strong need to Disengage, even when outnumbered. Rogues can withstand one attack in a pinch with Uncanny Dodge, but after that they're going to take a beating.
What's more, I disagree that Ki points are very limited. They recover with a short rest, and a typical adventuring day has two of those, so in general you get 3 times your max Ki pool every day. Even at 2nd level, that's already 6 uses of Flurry of Blows or Patient Defense. By 5th level, that's 15 uses.
As Onyx points out, Monks already get increased movement, so they also have less need to Dash. Step of the Wind is just a bit of extra insurance to make sure they can get within melee range of another enemy, since unlike Rogues, they can't do their job well from a distance. It's also got a weaker version of the Jump built into it.
Dont change your monk. You wont see a change cause attacks uses bonus action just like flurry of blows.
Also. Ki points are back every short rests thats really fast. If you want to help the monk give em 15 minute shortrests instead.
Difference between rogue and monks...
Its in the attack. At level 5 mainly.
Rogue 2 attacks just damage boost only if ally nearby.
Monk 4 attacks. Attack 1 ki stun. Advantage and crits on all next moves that touches. All that with only 2 ki points if stunning worked. If it did not just add more ki points until stuns works. Because it can be done on all attacks.
Conclusion. Rogues are versatiles. Monks are damage dealers. Hence why it cost them ki points.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Our 2c, getting to dodge as a bonus action would be broken if there was not a limit on it.
Imposing disadvantage on all attacks as a monk makes you a very effective tank.
The step of the wind thing is a bit muddier yes you have to pay for something rogues get for free but also you get to double your jump distance, this in the monk playstyle is useful more often than one might think. At the end of the day you're probably going to use step of the wind to go really fast and jump really far and that's probably situational, we don't disagree with it. Especially with the fact that Monk multiclass with Rogue is such an attractive option.
There are much fundamentals changes between rogue and monks...
i don't see why you think they get the same as rogues.
monks have multi attacks but are limited to their damage barely increasing over time and take sa lot of time. while rogues have many many ways to make their sneak attack worth it. and sneak attack levels up every 2 levels, which is much faster then the monks dice change. but monks with flurry of blows tends to do more attacks and hits more steadily.
rogues are more skill versatile then monks and they are versed in many other things like disarming traps and the liks. while monks are more move oriented with their wall running and their step of the wind. monks are more combat focused while rogues aren't.
of course if you only look at their cobat skills you will think that rogues are advantageous because they get it for free... but do they have 3 attacks at low level ? nope, they get maxium of 2 with dual wielding. so monks do more steady damage thanks to them have to throw more dice. same for crits, they have more chances because of more dice. if anything, the free bonus action of rogues is actually free to give them a bone they really need compared to other classes.
conclusion, stop looking only at damage and combat and look at the the rest of the game. you'll see that rogues shines much more out of combat then they do in combat.
Monks are made to be in the face, while rogues are more survival oriented. those two are very fundamentals that literally makes both classes very different.
if you intend to see them as class types much like in video games... i'd say they can both tank in their own ways as they can both soak damages. but i'd also say they are like in DCUO where controllers are split into two very distinct categories of crowd controls. the controllers and the batteries. both are the same category, but both are very essentials and cannot be done as a mix. as they both do their own stuff that is essential to a raid. yet they are in the same category. the same is true here, they are both in the same category, but they are doing very different things in themselves and are both essentials in their ways.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)