I agree with Filcat. If the material component doesn't mention a gold cost, it's less than 1gp. That means you can get a lot of use of an entire vial of holy water, or you can substitute your Spellcasting Focus for the material component, as per page 203 of Player's Handbook:
"A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell."
It's strange that this case includes "which the spell consumes", which is usually only relevant when the components are expensive or tricky to acquire, but here we are.
I was thinking that how it should be, but I found the wording odd and it made me wonder... I'm tempted to think it once had a costly component and they changed it because otherwise the spell is *way* too expensive!
I wanted to sanity check it before I start throwing that spell around.
I'm tempted to think it once had a costly component and they changed it because otherwise the spell is *way* too expensive!
Brief history lesson on the spell's material component:
Back in 2nd edition, when material components were introduced as an optional rule, protection from evil said "To complete this spell, the wizard must trace a 3-foot-diameter circle on the floor (or ground) with powdered silver." No cost was actually mentioned, but there were no rules that allowed the spell components to be bypassed (other than using the standard rules instead of this option), which meant the spell was prohibitively expensive at any table that thought about how much silver it would take to draw even a thin circle of that diameter.
I genuinely don't remember if this is one of the spells that changed from 3rd to v3.5, but I don't think it is. So that brings us to the 3.5 version of the spell. It says "a little powdered silver with which you trace a 3-foot-diameter circle on the floor (or ground) around the creature to be warded." But no cost is mentioned, and that means it could be assumed that any caster with a spell component pouch has plenty with which to cast the spell.
That version carried forward to 5th edition, but also has added holy water as an option. Which really just means more opportunities for specific items to cover the spell's casting (i.e. having holy water but not having your spell component pouch or spellcasting focus).
In general, there are three "levels" of material components.
- It requires some random things without a specified value. These components are abstracted away with a spell focus or component pouch.
- It requires a specific thing with a set value (ex. 100gp pearl for Identify).
- It requires a specific thing with a set value AND states that it is consumed (ex. Resurrection).
While stating that a component is consumed without a cost is unusual, I believe it falls under the first one and is provided by your spell focus or component pouch. It is likely just some awkward language or change that slipped through the cracks.
*edit* I guess XGtE added a few exceptions, notably the demon summonings with their requirement for fresh human blood. "V, S, M (a vial of blood from a humanoid killed within the past 24 hours)".
So you do need the component (it's not focus-able), and it's up to the DM whether it requires an entire vial per casting or you're just expected to have a vial on you.
Awesome. :)
...I wonder at times if Jeremy glances around these forums. >.>
That is kind of an obnoxious ruling; Yes you need to actually have this powdered metal (or holy water, that it is up to your DM whether or not is prohibitively expensive), but no we won't say what it will cost you, nor even give an amount of powder needed to make it easier for your DM to determine what it will cost to get enough.
*edit* I guess XGtE added a few exceptions, notably the demon summonings with their requirement for fresh human blood. "V, S, M (a vial of blood from a humanoid killed within the past 24 hours)".
I read that started to wonder. Does my spell component pouch have humanoid blood less then 24 hours old?!?!
I really hate stuff like this, it's fine if you're going to have flavor and just say "humanoid blood" that can be abstracted, but less then 24 hours old?! I actually really like this spell and was hoping to use it, but it's just kinda weirdly specific. The best I can figure since there is no material cost is you can't DRAW the circle of protection without the humanoid blood, but you can summon them. Luckily after the first casting you *probably* have plenty more for later castings. Also Jeremy MAKE up your @#(% mind. Either we abstract them costs or we don't, stop with this middle ground @*#$ and saying "if your DM is lenient". Stop getting your !%!@ "narratives device" into the combat mechanic in ways that make that mechanic neigh useless.
Look at Chromatic Orb. It does 3d8 elemental damage with a To Hit roll, nothing on a miss. It's on par with any other similar spell for it's level, but it costs 50gp to cast. What level 1 adventurer can spend 50 gold to cast a lvl 1 spell? Especially when most every other spell doesn't require hoops.
As a comment to something AaronOfBarbaria said about 2nd edition. I remember playing in a 2nd edition game and Mage Armor required a strip of leather that was blessed in holy water. The thing was Mage Armor back then was BOTH an AC bonus and Temp HP, until the Temp HP were used up. It could last infinite time just until the HP were used up. We ended up doing questing to get holy water, so we could bless strips of leather, so we could cast Mage Armor on our dogs.... because Mastiffs in that edition were equal to a lvl 2 Fighter and didn't use up XP because they were "equipment".
Look at Chromatic Orb. It does 3d8 elemental damage with a To Hit roll, nothing on a miss. It's on par with any other similar spell for it's level, but it costs 50gp to cast. What level 1 adventurer can spend 50 gold to cast a lvl 1 spell? Especially when most every other spell doesn't require hoops.
The 50gp diamond for Chromatic Orb isn't consumed. Similarly to Identify's 100gp pearl.
As Rhymfaxe said. Some spells require tricky components but not for every casting - just to verify you have them.
If you're beaten and locked in a dungeon with no equipment, Identifying that suspicious weapon in that same dungeon won't be so easy.
Curious or "exotic" components aren't new (this very discussion on Protection from Evil and Good is testament to that). Personally, I like the lax handling. Jeremy's comment says that it is expected to require a vial; I prefer that it is not stated directly, since I'm using it as per Identify's pearl: you need to have a vial of Holy Water on you so you can sprinkle a bit, but it's not consumed by the casting. If you want (or need) to chuck that vial to an undead, it's your choice, but you need to have another (or buy, or make) until you can cast the spell again.
The case of Summon Greater Demon and similar feels different, though. It feels like the capability to summon demons is locked behind an RP wall of an evil act (or a very clever way around it). Again, personally, I like the idea. With the vagueness of alignment in 5th, it would feel disturbing (but technically ambivalent) for the Paladin when the Wizard summoned a Barlgura. As it stands, knowing the spell hints at the horrible act required to cast it.
Of course, a goblin is a humanoid, for example. I don't think many people would blink twice if you took a vial of blood from one of the dozens killed in the last encounter. The "RP wall" mentioned above is that alone - if you see a caster in a city casting it, be suspicious. If you need it, go find a goblin or other poor, defenseless (evil) humanoid and extract a vial. Damn, if your tendencies are evil, you can keep a few around in chains (physical or mental) just in case.
Look at Chromatic Orb. It does 3d8 elemental damage with a To Hit roll, nothing on a miss. It's on par with any other similar spell for it's level, but it costs 50gp to cast. What level 1 adventurer can spend 50 gold to cast a lvl 1 spell? Especially when most every other spell doesn't require hoops.
The 50gp diamond for Chromatic Orb isn't consumed. Similarly to Identify's 100gp pearl.
I didn't say the material component was consumed. I said what lvl 1 character has 50 gold to blow on spell that doesn't do any more damage then every other spell of it's level.
If the spell did more damage then it's lvl would expect, but it had an expensive component that would be fine, it would be expect to be for higher level characters.
Identity is a great example of a dumb spell in 5e. It take 1 minute to cast or 11 minutes ritually. It tells you the magic property of any item. A short rest also does the same thing without blowing 100 gold on an item and uses up a spell slot (or slot known). Literally any character can do this, not just a caster. At best you save yourself time, but it's not a lot. 1/60 a short rest for a spell slot and 1/6th without one. Plus a short rest IDs items equal to the party.
When it my spell pouch is stolen, all I need is a wand, rod, or quarterstaff... So a knife, a stick, and carpentry and I can cast any spell with a non costly material component.
Chromatic Orb gives more options than others of its level, to exploit vulnerabilities or avoid resistances. It's a very good spell to prepare if you don't know what to expect.
Identify is one of those spells of convenience, I believe. You can quickly find out if that new sword is any good before the orcs chasing you catch up (perhaps it's an Orc Slayer!). And without such hurry, a wizard can identify about six times more items than other people in an hour, without expending anything, just by having it in his spellbook and having a gem lying around (which he can sell later if he needs to). Plus, there's the optional rule (that I use, for instance), that does away with that pesky auto-identification.
Lastly, an Arcane Focus is a "special item — an orb, a crystal, a rod, a specially constructed staff, a wand-like length of wood, or some similar item — designed to channel the power of arcane spells." (Player's Handbook, page 151, or here). A random kitchen knife or a broken piece of a chair, or even the monk's actual quarterstaff won't help much.
The case of Summon Greater Demon and similar feels different, though. It feels like the capability to summon demons is locked behind an RP wall of an evil act (or a very clever way around it). Again, personally, I like the idea. With the vagueness of alignment in 5th, it would feel disturbing (but technically ambivalent) for the Paladin when the Wizard summoned a Barlgura. As it stands, knowing the spell hints at the horrible act required to cast it.
I'm sure you can cast the spell using a focus or component pouch. Even the component of Heat Metalis abstracted away.
But you can't protect yourself without drawing a circle in blood, and even then it can still attack your allies. So in practice only someone with fresh blood and that considers their allies expendable (or has none) will use it.
I didn't say the material component was consumed. I said what lvl 1 character has 50 gold to blow on spell that doesn't do any more damage then every other spell of it's level.
Like Onyx said, the whole point of the spell is that you can pick the damage type. It's also an attack, so it works better than saving throws when enemies have Magic Resistance or Legendary Resistance, when you have advantage on attack rolls, or you have some sort of bonus to attacks (like Hex). Some damage types are rarer than others, and attack rolls are also rare with some of them. For example, the only attack spell I can think of that deals thunder damage is Booming Blade.
Identity is a great example of a dumb spell in 5e. It take 1 minute to cast or 11 minutes ritually. It tells you the magic property of any item. A short rest also does the same thing without blowing 100 gold on an item and uses up a spell slot (or slot known). Literally any character can do this, not just a caster. At best you save yourself time, but it's not a lot. 1/60 a short rest for a spell slot and 1/6th without one. Plus a short rest IDs items equal to the party.
1. Besides being slower, if you identify an item the short rest way you need a second short rest to attune to it.
2. You left out the better use of Identify: it tells you what spells are affecting a creature. You'll appreciate that when one of your party members starts acting funny.
Lastly, an Arcane Focus is a "special item — an orb, a crystal, a rod, a specially constructed staff, a wand-like length of wood, or some similar item — designed to channel the power of arcane spells." (Player's Handbook, page 151, or here). A random kitchen knife or a broken piece of a chair, or even the monk's actual quarterstaff won't help much.
Jeremy's answer notwithstanding, having a focus in general means you don't need the components as long as a price isn't listed. Furthermore, it doesn't look like he was asked about a caster using a focus. He was asked about casting the spell with the actual components.
The way I'd interpret the demon summoning spells from Xanathar's is that you could use a focus to get around the blood requirement of casting the spell, but doing so means no warding on yourself, so your demons could just as easily come attack you once the enemies are gone.
I think it's worth noting that many spells aren't intended for PCs so much as for NPCs and the DM to play with.
Summon lesser demons gives the mechanics a DM can build a narrative from! It's a great way to hook an adventure, with a super bloody murder, and a brutalized corpse.
I think you're all being ridiculous. Holy Water is a very widely used item with a SET value. You MUST consume 25 gp worth of silver powder in order to create Holy Water (via the Ceremony spell), so the fact that it doesn't say "Holy Water worth 25 gp" in the description is meaningless. There doesn't EXIST a holy water item that costs less than 25 GP to create, so all Holy Water listed in a spell description must be this holy water item which costs 25 gp! If a component is consumed, the arcane focus CANNOT act as a stand-in. It can mimic the presence of certain items, but your arcane focus cannot mimic the consumption of an item.
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One thing I've been confused about: The spell Protection from Good and Evil states as material component:
Does this refer to the item Holy Water so that each casting costs 25 gold?!
Or because it doesn't list the gold cost it's considered to be a negligible quantity of holy water?
I believe the quantity is small for the spell. Otherwise the cost would have been specified.
I agree with Filcat. If the material component doesn't mention a gold cost, it's less than 1gp. That means you can get a lot of use of an entire vial of holy water, or you can substitute your Spellcasting Focus for the material component, as per page 203 of Player's Handbook:
"A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell."
It's strange that this case includes "which the spell consumes", which is usually only relevant when the components are expensive or tricky to acquire, but here we are.
Thanks filcat and Onyx.
I was thinking that how it should be, but I found the wording odd and it made me wonder... I'm tempted to think it once had a costly component and they changed it because otherwise the spell is *way* too expensive!
I wanted to sanity check it before I start throwing that spell around.
In general, there are three "levels" of material components.
- It requires some random things without a specified value. These components are abstracted away with a spell focus or component pouch.
- It requires a specific thing with a set value (ex. 100gp pearl for Identify).
- It requires a specific thing with a set value AND states that it is consumed (ex. Resurrection).
While stating that a component is consumed without a cost is unusual, I believe it falls under the first one and is provided by your spell focus or component pouch. It is likely just some awkward language or change that slipped through the cracks.
*edit* I guess XGtE added a few exceptions, notably the demon summonings with their requirement for fresh human blood. "V, S, M (a vial of blood from a humanoid killed within the past 24 hours)".
DnDBeyond Tooltip Syntax
Managed to get some answers from Jeremy on this one.
Can Protection From Evil and Good be cast with a component pouch or a focus?
If a spell consumes its material component, you must provide that component every time you cast it.
So the material component should be interpreted as a vial of holy water worth 25 gold OR powdered silver worth 25 gold, correct?
The cost isn't a concern for that spell, only that you have some of the material for the spell to consume. It's a narrative device: sprinkling holy water or the powder.
In practical terms, does that mean a flask of holy water could be reused for multiple castings of the spell?
If a DM was generous and allowed that. Typically, a DM will expect a flask to be used.
So you do need the component (it's not focus-able), and it's up to the DM whether it requires an entire vial per casting or you're just expected to have a vial on you.
Awesome. :)
...I wonder at times if Jeremy glances around these forums. >.>
That is kind of an obnoxious ruling; Yes you need to actually have this powdered metal (or holy water, that it is up to your DM whether or not is prohibitively expensive), but no we won't say what it will cost you, nor even give an amount of powder needed to make it easier for your DM to determine what it will cost to get enough.
I agree, I really wish they would've explicitly written "holy water or powered silver worth 25 gold".
I really hate stuff like this, it's fine if you're going to have flavor and just say "humanoid blood" that can be abstracted, but less then 24 hours old?! I actually really like this spell and was hoping to use it, but it's just kinda weirdly specific. The best I can figure since there is no material cost is you can't DRAW the circle of protection without the humanoid blood, but you can summon them. Luckily after the first casting you *probably* have plenty more for later castings.
Also Jeremy MAKE up your @#(% mind. Either we abstract them costs or we don't, stop with this middle ground @*#$ and saying "if your DM is lenient". Stop getting your !%!@ "narratives device" into the combat mechanic in ways that make that mechanic neigh useless.
DnDBeyond Tooltip Syntax
As Rhymfaxe said. Some spells require tricky components but not for every casting - just to verify you have them.
If you're beaten and locked in a dungeon with no equipment, Identifying that suspicious weapon in that same dungeon won't be so easy.
Curious or "exotic" components aren't new (this very discussion on Protection from Evil and Good is testament to that). Personally, I like the lax handling. Jeremy's comment says that it is expected to require a vial; I prefer that it is not stated directly, since I'm using it as per Identify's pearl: you need to have a vial of Holy Water on you so you can sprinkle a bit, but it's not consumed by the casting. If you want (or need) to chuck that vial to an undead, it's your choice, but you need to have another (or buy, or make) until you can cast the spell again.
The case of Summon Greater Demon and similar feels different, though. It feels like the capability to summon demons is locked behind an RP wall of an evil act (or a very clever way around it). Again, personally, I like the idea. With the vagueness of alignment in 5th, it would feel disturbing (but technically ambivalent) for the Paladin when the Wizard summoned a Barlgura. As it stands, knowing the spell hints at the horrible act required to cast it.
Of course, a goblin is a humanoid, for example. I don't think many people would blink twice if you took a vial of blood from one of the dozens killed in the last encounter. The "RP wall" mentioned above is that alone - if you see a caster in a city casting it, be suspicious. If you need it, go find a goblin or other poor, defenseless (evil) humanoid and extract a vial. Damn, if your tendencies are evil, you can keep a few around in chains (physical or mental) just in case.
Chromatic Orb gives more options than others of its level, to exploit vulnerabilities or avoid resistances. It's a very good spell to prepare if you don't know what to expect.
Identify is one of those spells of convenience, I believe. You can quickly find out if that new sword is any good before the orcs chasing you catch up (perhaps it's an Orc Slayer!). And without such hurry, a wizard can identify about six times more items than other people in an hour, without expending anything, just by having it in his spellbook and having a gem lying around (which he can sell later if he needs to). Plus, there's the optional rule (that I use, for instance), that does away with that pesky auto-identification.
Lastly, an Arcane Focus is a "special item — an orb, a crystal, a rod, a specially constructed staff, a wand-like length of wood, or some similar item — designed to channel the power of arcane spells." (Player's Handbook, page 151, or here). A random kitchen knife or a broken piece of a chair, or even the monk's actual quarterstaff won't help much.
I'm sure you can cast the spell using a focus or component pouch. Even the component of Heat Metal is abstracted away.
But you can't protect yourself without drawing a circle in blood, and even then it can still attack your allies. So in practice only someone with fresh blood and that considers their allies expendable (or has none) will use it.
This "specially constructed" arcane focus costs 5 gold.
That means any PC with 2 gold and 5 silver and 8 hours can craft one.
really don't see your point.
Jeremy's answer notwithstanding, having a focus in general means you don't need the components as long as a price isn't listed. Furthermore, it doesn't look like he was asked about a caster using a focus. He was asked about casting the spell with the actual components.
The way I'd interpret the demon summoning spells from Xanathar's is that you could use a focus to get around the blood requirement of casting the spell, but doing so means no warding on yourself, so your demons could just as easily come attack you once the enemies are gone.
I think it's worth noting that many spells aren't intended for PCs so much as for NPCs and the DM to play with.
Summon lesser demons gives the mechanics a DM can build a narrative from! It's a great way to hook an adventure, with a super bloody murder, and a brutalized corpse.
Formatting Tooltips, because I always forget
I think you're all being ridiculous. Holy Water is a very widely used item with a SET value. You MUST consume 25 gp worth of silver powder in order to create Holy Water (via the Ceremony spell), so the fact that it doesn't say "Holy Water worth 25 gp" in the description is meaningless. There doesn't EXIST a holy water item that costs less than 25 GP to create, so all Holy Water listed in a spell description must be this holy water item which costs 25 gp! If a component is consumed, the arcane focus CANNOT act as a stand-in. It can mimic the presence of certain items, but your arcane focus cannot mimic the consumption of an item.