The relevant rule for opportunity attacks: You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature. The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach.
Opportunity attacks trigger when a creature is just starting to cross the boundary of the attacking creatures reach (per the bolded). Either out (normal) or in (PAM), that rule doesn't change (though PAM would change "right before the creature leaves" to "right after the creature enters", more or less (at least logically). Teleporting eliminates that step in both directions. You never cross the boundary (at least not physically), so the actual moment the attack is supposed to occur on never happens.
The relevant rule for opportunity attacks: You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature. The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach.
Opportunity attacks trigger when a creature is just starting to cross the boundary of the attacking creatures reach (per the bolded). Either out (normal) or in (PAM), that rule doesn't change (though PAM would change "right before the creature leaves" to "right after the creature enters", more or less (at least logically). Teleporting eliminates that step in both directions. You never cross the boundary (at least not physically), so the actual moment the attack is supposed to occur on never happens.
Which makes sense. It also follows the logic of the PAM feat subtext: "You can keep your enemies at bay with reach weapons." That is to say, you are attempting to keep your enemies at distance or penalize them for entering your range.
So yeah, I think you have it. No opportunity attack for teleportation. Period.
Thanks all, for allowing me muse on this publicly and explore it.
Is the polearm master not a specific rule vs the general rule on teleportation?
Teleportation is a specific rule that breaks the general rule on movement, my dude.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You don't "enter" the area of their reach though. You are just suddenly in it. You never cross the threshold to enter into it. Your spatial coordinates just change suddenly and instantly and you're now in a new location. You didn't move. You didn't leave. You didn't enter. You teleported.
You don't "enter" the area of their reach though. You are just suddenly in it. You never cross the threshold to enter into it. Your spatial coordinates just change suddenly and instantly and you're now in a new location. You didn't move. You didn't leave. You didn't enter. You teleported.
That border area is the key. And the wording of PAM makes it somewhat confusing, along with the feat itself being a specific rule which changes when opportunity attacks happen. But I agree with you.
You don't "enter" the area of their reach though. You are just suddenly in it. You never cross the threshold to enter into it. Your spatial coordinates just change suddenly and instantly and you're now in a new location. You didn't move. You didn't leave. You didn't enter. You teleported.
If you consider teleporting to bypass effects that trigger when someone "enters" the area, you would likewise consider an individual teleporting into a Whirlwind to be unharmed?
You don't "enter" the area of their reach though. You are just suddenly in it. You never cross the threshold to enter into it. Your spatial coordinates just change suddenly and instantly and you're now in a new location. You didn't move. You didn't leave. You didn't enter. You teleported.
If you consider teleporting to bypass effects that trigger when someone "enters" the area, you would likewise consider an individual teleporting into a Whirlwind to be unharmed?
They aren't the same things. whirlwind is an area of effect, a volume. You can "enter" it by teleporting, because it is not just a boundary.. Opportunity attacks are a boundary, not an area of effect, and they are a trigger against a specific event, that of crossing the boundary set by the attackers reach . Think of it like a soap bubble...the effect triggers when you pass through the soap, but if you just appear inside the bubble, you never passed through the soap, so the trigger never happens and the attack never occurs
You don't "enter" the area of their reach though. You are just suddenly in it. You never cross the threshold to enter into it. Your spatial coordinates just change suddenly and instantly and you're now in a new location. You didn't move. You didn't leave. You didn't enter. You teleported.
If you consider teleporting to bypass effects that trigger when someone "enters" the area, you would likewise consider an individual teleporting into a Whirlwind to be unharmed?
It's a valid question because Whirlwind does mention "entering" the space too, but I think it gets covered:
A creature must make a Dexterity saving throw the first time on a turn that it enters the whirlwind or that the whirlwind enters its space, including when the whirlwind first appears.
If you teleport into a whirlwind, you don't cross the threshold to enter the space when you bamf in just as with an opportunity attack, but the whirlwind definitely enters your space the moment it becomes yours.
Again, it's the difference between a bubble/empty circle and a solid sphere, as iconarising noted.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You don't "enter" the area of their reach though. You are just suddenly in it. You never cross the threshold to enter into it. Your spatial coordinates just change suddenly and instantly and you're now in a new location. You didn't move. You didn't leave. You didn't enter. You teleported.
If you consider teleporting to bypass effects that trigger when someone "enters" the area, you would likewise consider an individual teleporting into a Whirlwind to be unharmed?
They aren't the same things. whirlwind is an area of effect, a volume. You can "enter" it by teleporting, because it is not just a boundary.. Opportunity attacks are a boundary, not an area of effect, and they are a trigger against a specific event, that of crossing the boundary set by the attackers reach . Think of it like a soap bubble...the effect triggers when you pass through the soap, but if you just appear inside the bubble, you never passed through the soap, so the trigger never happens and the attack never occurs
One's reach is not just a boundary. It's an area. If you have 10 foot reach, you can attack someone within 10 foot, not only at 10 foot range.
Just to make it clear, I was not commenting on OA specifically, but rather @ravnodaus' definition of what it means to "enter" a space and its implications.
@AntonSirius I am not quite sure how you reach the conclusion that the Whirlwind enters the PCs space when he teleports into it and not vice versa? Again, I am applying @ravnodaus' definition of "entering" a space to the spell interpretation ("You didn't move. You didn't enter."), but even if I wasn't I still wouldn't see how you got from a to b.
Again, it's the difference between a bubble/empty circle and a solid sphere
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You don't "enter" the area of their reach though. You are just suddenly in it. You never cross the threshold to enter into it. Your spatial coordinates just change suddenly and instantly and you're now in a new location. You didn't move. You didn't leave. You didn't enter. You teleported.
If you consider teleporting to bypass effects that trigger when someone "enters" the area, you would likewise consider an individual teleporting into a Whirlwind to be unharmed?
You'd treat them exactly like someone who was already in the area.
Interesting spell, it doesn't seem to do damage unless something moves into it, or it moves into something (plus when it first appears). But just being inside it doesn't seem to trigger damage at all.
Honestly that's good spell design/balance because that would be a lot of damage to have it deal continually to the area inside it, that's probably why it was designed this way. Having it only deal damage as it enters areas and then tying moving it to an action gives the caster a solid repeatable damage dealing action. But without making it an area effect of doom if you're stuck inside it.
So, yeah, teleporting to an area inside it wouldn't trigger damage.
You don't "enter" the area of their reach though. You are just suddenly in it. You never cross the threshold to enter into it. Your spatial coordinates just change suddenly and instantly and you're now in a new location. You didn't move. You didn't leave. You didn't enter. You teleported.
If you consider teleporting to bypass effects that trigger when someone "enters" the area, you would likewise consider an individual teleporting into a Whirlwind to be unharmed?
They aren't the same things. whirlwind is an area of effect, a volume. You can "enter" it by teleporting, because it is not just a boundary.. Opportunity attacks are a boundary, not an area of effect, and they are a trigger against a specific event, that of crossing the boundary set by the attackers reach . Think of it like a soap bubble...the effect triggers when you pass through the soap, but if you just appear inside the bubble, you never passed through the soap, so the trigger never happens and the attack never occurs
Actually this is a good analogy for the whirlwind spell too though. A creature inside it doesn't take damage, only entering it, or it running you down, triggers the damage. Being inside it round after round causes no damage. So, the whirlwind is like a soap bubble too, just a threshold... at least, for the damage portion, anyway.
Actually this is a good analogy for the whirlwind spell too though. A creature inside it doesn't take damage, only entering it, or it running you down, triggers the damage. Being inside it round after round causes no damage. So, the whirlwind is like a soap bubble too, just a threshold... at least, for the damage portion, anyway.
It isn't though, because the whirlwind is a 10-foot radius area effect that does damage to everyone in that area when it first contacts them. It's a solid cylinder, not an empty circle.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Actually this is a good analogy for the whirlwind spell too though. A creature inside it doesn't take damage, only entering it, or it running you down, triggers the damage. Being inside it round after round causes no damage. So, the whirlwind is like a soap bubble too, just a threshold... at least, for the damage portion, anyway.
It isn't though, because the whirlwind is a 10-foot radius area effect that does damage to everyone in that area when it first contacts them. It's a solid cylinder, not an empty circle.
And you only enter areas when you move? Not when you're carried, thrown, dragged, teleported, etc. etc. That's your position?
The three boldened are types of movement. Teleport is not.
Source?
The SAC (if you care about such things) doesn't seem to agree with you on that. Nor does the PHB Chapter 9, which talks about teleportation as a way to move while prone. The fact that PHB Chapter 9 brings up teleportation at all in the context of Opportunity Attacks when a creature "moves out of reach" is another good indication that 5E recognizes you're moving while teleporting (though admittedly, not moving using your available movement defined by speed, usually).
Feels a little thin to say that walking from A to B is movement, being thrown/pushed/dragged/carried from A to B is movement, but teleportation from A to B isn't movement.
Actually this is a good analogy for the whirlwind spell too though. A creature inside it doesn't take damage, only entering it, or it running you down, triggers the damage. Being inside it round after round causes no damage. So, the whirlwind is like a soap bubble too, just a threshold... at least, for the damage portion, anyway.
It isn't though, because the whirlwind is a 10-foot radius area effect that does damage to everyone in that area when it first contacts them. It's a solid cylinder, not an empty circle.
It does no damage to people inside it whatsoever.
It absolutely does.
A creature must make a Dexterity saving throw the first time on a turn that it enters the whirlwind or that the whirlwind enters its space, including when the whirlwind first appears. A creature takes 10d6 bludgeoning damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
The relevant rule for opportunity attacks: You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature. The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach.
Opportunity attacks trigger when a creature is just starting to cross the boundary of the attacking creatures reach (per the bolded). Either out (normal) or in (PAM), that rule doesn't change (though PAM would change "right before the creature leaves" to "right after the creature enters", more or less (at least logically). Teleporting eliminates that step in both directions. You never cross the boundary (at least not physically), so the actual moment the attack is supposed to occur on never happens.
Which makes sense. It also follows the logic of the PAM feat subtext: "You can keep your enemies at bay with reach weapons." That is to say, you are attempting to keep your enemies at distance or penalize them for entering your range.
So yeah, I think you have it. No opportunity attack for teleportation. Period.
Thanks all, for allowing me muse on this publicly and explore it.
Teleportation is a specific rule that breaks the general rule on movement, my dude.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You don't "enter" the area of their reach though. You are just suddenly in it. You never cross the threshold to enter into it. Your spatial coordinates just change suddenly and instantly and you're now in a new location. You didn't move. You didn't leave. You didn't enter. You teleported.
I'm probably laughing.
That border area is the key. And the wording of PAM makes it somewhat confusing, along with the feat itself being a specific rule which changes when opportunity attacks happen. But I agree with you.
If you consider teleporting to bypass effects that trigger when someone "enters" the area, you would likewise consider an individual teleporting into a Whirlwind to be unharmed?
They aren't the same things. whirlwind is an area of effect, a volume. You can "enter" it by teleporting, because it is not just a boundary.. Opportunity attacks are a boundary, not an area of effect, and they are a trigger against a specific event, that of crossing the boundary set by the attackers reach . Think of it like a soap bubble...the effect triggers when you pass through the soap, but if you just appear inside the bubble, you never passed through the soap, so the trigger never happens and the attack never occurs
It's a valid question because Whirlwind does mention "entering" the space too, but I think it gets covered:
If you teleport into a whirlwind, you don't cross the threshold to enter the space when you bamf in just as with an opportunity attack, but the whirlwind definitely enters your space the moment it becomes yours.
Again, it's the difference between a bubble/empty circle and a solid sphere, as iconarising noted.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
One's reach is not just a boundary. It's an area. If you have 10 foot reach, you can attack someone within 10 foot, not only at 10 foot range.
Just to make it clear, I was not commenting on OA specifically, but rather @ravnodaus' definition of what it means to "enter" a space and its implications.
@AntonSirius I am not quite sure how you reach the conclusion that the Whirlwind enters the PCs space when he teleports into it and not vice versa? Again, I am applying @ravnodaus' definition of "entering" a space to the spell interpretation ("You didn't move. You didn't enter."), but even if I wasn't I still wouldn't see how you got from a to b.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You'd treat them exactly like someone who was already in the area.
Interesting spell, it doesn't seem to do damage unless something moves into it, or it moves into something (plus when it first appears). But just being inside it doesn't seem to trigger damage at all.
Honestly that's good spell design/balance because that would be a lot of damage to have it deal continually to the area inside it, that's probably why it was designed this way. Having it only deal damage as it enters areas and then tying moving it to an action gives the caster a solid repeatable damage dealing action. But without making it an area effect of doom if you're stuck inside it.
So, yeah, teleporting to an area inside it wouldn't trigger damage.
I'm probably laughing.
Actually this is a good analogy for the whirlwind spell too though. A creature inside it doesn't take damage, only entering it, or it running you down, triggers the damage. Being inside it round after round causes no damage. So, the whirlwind is like a soap bubble too, just a threshold... at least, for the damage portion, anyway.
I'm probably laughing.
Entering the area by teleporting doesn't count as entering either??? Wow, what a time to be alive.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Teleporting to the area isn't entering. Correct. Teleporting isn't movement.
I'm probably laughing.
And you only enter areas when you move? Not when you're carried, thrown, dragged, teleported, etc. etc. That's your position?
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
The three boldened are types of movement. Teleport is not.
I'm probably laughing.
It isn't though, because the whirlwind is a 10-foot radius area effect that does damage to everyone in that area when it first contacts them. It's a solid cylinder, not an empty circle.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
It does no damage to people inside it whatsoever.
I'm probably laughing.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
It absolutely does.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)