so since we are altering the drow in the near future, so they aren't an evil race. What could we do to make it more palatable while still having reusing the basic ideas. (Chaos theocracy, subjugation of the male drow, class structure)
Like what are the ideals behind this? How do they think this is good? What does the ideal drow look like to them?
How do we make this a highly flawed society rather than an evil race.
Add a fifth column type underground, similar to Bregan D'aerthe. Instead of rogue mercenaries, they are a pipeline for Drow to escape the influence of Lolth and get to either the surface or to Drow cities that are not under the influence of Lolth's priestesses.
You keep the flavor of Menzonerranzan, add some allies for surface dwellers that adventure in the Underdark, and only slightly diminish the impact of Drizzt do'Urden as a "Renegade Drow".
It should also be noted that other Drow cities were not Matriarchal and had different cultures. Menzoberranzan was unique in that it was a city of Lolth worshippers. Drow cities that venerated other Drow gods were not dominated by Lolth's priestesses. Menzonerranzan just gets all the attention because of Drizzt and the novels of R.A. Salvatore.
It might be nice to have a story for the journey from the old ways to the new ways - a movement rising from a marginalized group of Drow to overcome the obstacles of tradition and elitism.
A light-switch solution to merely change things feels hollow to me. A struggle to find a place in the Underdark feels like an investment worthy of heroes.
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Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
I think the devotees of Lloth can still be the devotees of Lloth. Thanks to the popularity of Drizzt, significant numbers of good-aligned Drow, including good-aligned Drow gods, have been introduced into the game since at least D&D 3.0.
Eberron's Drow are not inherently evil, but as a civilization they do try to control the other creatures of their lands (as if humans do not) and don't want anything to do with the other elves, seeing them as kind of traitors (well, if there are going to be subraces at all, there kind of needs to be some animosity between them.)
i think way more allowance has been made for Drow to be good, despite being the only kind of elves that almost ever get to be bad guys, than has been made for other evil races simply because they are designed to be feminine and attractive. Not nearly so much effort has ever been put into reinventing the Duergar or Deep Gnomes or Goblins or Orcs.
And I don't think one needs to go so far as to reinvent them to the point that every single Drow in existence is friendly and loves humans. Rather, if it is generally perfectly understandable why they split from other elves and might have strong animosity for Dwarfs and humans-- so not evil for the sake of being evil, but if they felt wronged or betrayed or even if they did something wrong and got excessively punished and ostracized for it, so that if you run into a bunch of uniformed Drow soldiers, they are going to try to kill you or enslave you on sight. And an individual isn't going to be able to overcome that schism-- maybe with individuals they can meet under peaceful circumstances, but not with the whole race.
But if the Drow have been around for 10,000s of years and their core, dominate society is so generally brutal, then there are going to be some number of them who have split off from the main culture-- either willingly or unwillingly-- and maybe formed their own communities or they just headed for certain cities in the world where pretty much all people are relatively accepted.
But that's already definitely the case. But if one wants to make Drow look better, probably the first thing that can be done is have evil High Elves and Wood Elves, not random sole individuals who have gone bad-- but who communities of them who have just had enough of non-elves and will kill you in a horrific manner should you cross them. Because at that point it would become "Elves can be total jerks sometimes" and not "The light skinned elves are almost always good, the dark skinned ones are almost always evil-- but you can find some good dark skinned ones too."
Honestly, if I were to craft a new campaign world and implement them however I like, I think at this point I would get rid of subraces all together-- any given elf is going to be some mix of the traits of wood elf, high elf and drow, the ones you see in the more cosmopolitan areas will generally be neutral with some common positive traits and some common negative traits, but they can be both heroes and criminals but will tend to be so for very elven reasons regardless. When you have all elf communities, that's when you might have something that more lines up with the traditional subraces-- but all elf communities would generally be all-elf for a reason, if you aren't elf then they don't want you there and they might kill you just for getting too close so that their locations remain secret.
I like the idea of no subraces, unless there is something very specific. Drow being an elf who followed their goddess into the darkness underground and dominatr through powerful magic and brutal slavery Is a great idea, now that you open up the possibility of infiltration by good elves and their allies. Of course, the opposite is now possible: drow infiltrating good elvish society.
The best answer is to push Eilistraee's "good" followers to the forefront. An opportunity was lost when she was "brought back" after she'd beaten Vhaeraun and became the Masked Lady. Put the Good drow on the surface and leave the lolth worshippers where they are.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
In my campaign setting, drow weren't originally evil. But they got corrupted by the power of the Abyss because they were summoning demons left and right, and the houses that summoned more demons became more corrupt and evil. Eventually, one of the houses broke off drow society and were branded as traitors by the other drow, and word of them never reached the surface.
They weren't always evil in most of the lore; they were cursed for following Lolth against Corellon Larethian
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
i'm really for looking something like what the klingon's have in star trek, were they do bad things but deep down there is this weird logic to it that can be explored as something positive despite the flaw but is still a long way from something good. Like so their can be drow Worf who fulfills the flawed Klingon ideals but is still bad.
My homebrew alignment is strictly lawful, neutral, and chaotic. Good and evil are points of view that change depending on who you're talking to.
Having said that my Drow are lawful and militaristic. They pursued the Illithid into the Underdark when the elves rose up against them. When the other subraces refused to pursue the Drow basically told them to get bent and grudges have been harbored ever since. Drow very much live by the sayings of might makes right, survival of the fittest, and the ends justify the means.
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Lightning Strike - A rebranded Fire Bolt for Wizards & Sorcerers.
Spirit Bomb - A holy fireball for Clerics, Paladins, & Divine Soul Sorcerers!
Sword Dancer - A Cleric subclass specifically for the Drow goddess Eilistraee.
My homebrew alignment is strictly lawful, neutral, and chaotic. Good and evil are points of view that change depending on who you're talking to.
Having said that my Drow are lawful and militaristic. They pursued the Illithid into the Underdark when the elves rose up against them. When the other subraces refused to pursue the Drow basically told them to get bent and grudges have been harbored ever since. Drow very much live by the sayings of might makes right, survival of the fittest, and the ends justify the means.
I really like this. Good and evil generally depend on one's point of view. Very few people likely think that they are evil, even when a good many other people think them to be evil.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
The best option is to simply make them a variety of elves who have dark skin and may or may not prefer living underground. Don't tie the skin color to being cursed or having consorted with demons or whatever, they're dark skinned just because they're dark skinned and there's no particular significance about it.
Aside from that, just make sure that they're not a monoculture. Menzonerranzan isn't a place you want to visit, but neither is Luskan. Give the drow other cities that are different. And make it so that a drow walking into an average human city is something to be viewed as unusual, but most people who aren't heavily biased against elves will be more likely to react with casual curiosity over the stranger rather than locking up their children and reaching for their weapons.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I would make it so that some Drow cities are under constant assault by non-drow elves; the reason that they are harsh in these cities is because they need to to survive.
Add a fifth column type underground, similar to Bregan D'aerthe. Instead of rogue mercenaries, they are a pipeline for Drow to escape the influence of Lolth and get to either the surface or to Drow cities that are not under the influence of Lolth's priestesses.
You keep the flavor of Menzonerranzan, add some allies for surface dwellers that adventure in the Underdark, and only slightly diminish the impact of Drizzt do'Urden as a "Renegade Drow".
It should also be noted that other Drow cities were not Matriarchal and had different cultures. Menzoberranzan was unique in that it was a city of Lolth worshippers. Drow cities that venerated other Drow gods were not dominated by Lolth's priestesses. Menzonerranzan just gets all the attention because of Drizzt and the novels of R.A. Salvatore.
Interesting. I thought all mainstream drow cities worshipped Lloth, at least in the Realms.
You could emphasize Eilistraee and her followers, more like elves of starlight than elves of Darkness. Also, you could make it so the followers of Vhaeraun weren’t so much evil as an elvish version of MGTOW: not evil, but very different from the traditional gynocratic drow.
The Forgotten Realms could have another catastrophic event, like the Time of Troubles, Spellplague, Second Sundering or the like. Toril is no stranger to calamity, and there could easily be a change.
So, they can easily make up an excuse for such an event. In one of these possible catastrophes, maybe drow and orcs are freed from Lolth and Gruumsh. Maybe those deities die, are imprisoned, or just get tired of neverending wars and start loosening their grip on their races.
So, suddenly Orcs and Drow are freed from Gruumsh and Lolth respectively. Now, what plays out after this depends on the other events of the catastrophe, but it could follow something like this:
Chaos erupts as suddenly the Matron Mothers loses their power, and Bregan D'aerthe and the Lord's Alliance assault Menzoberranzen and other drow strongholds, the males revolt from oppression, and the matriarchal society is overthrown.
The males and remaining good females form a new society, probably similar to other Elven societies in Faerun. They could worship Eilistraee or Corellon or some other deity, elven or otherwise, and form their society around a new ideology.
They either move to the surface, or remain in the Underdark. They could move to the surface and live in some of the Dwarfholds of the North, or form new cities around the Silver Marches (possibly in the ruins of Ascore, Sundabar, or other ruined cities), and learn to get along with the other races. If they remain in the Underdark, they could either flee Menzoberranzan, or transform it to a new society. They could light up the city more, get rid of all the spiders, give slaves their freedom and a choice to stay with them or leave, and possibly keep their giant lizard companions.
If they remain in the Underdark, and their are significant populations of freed slaves in drow cities and strongholds, their previous cities of oppression could become beacons of hope and change in the Underdark. Svirfneblin and other benevolent races in the Underdark could ally with them and possibly merge their cultures. Depending on the circumstances of the calamity, they could either work together to destroy the Duergar, or accept them into their culture as well. If they moved to the surface, if the Svirfneblin are left behind, they could fill a wider niche and grow larger in the Underdark. Duergar could also get more powerful if they're evil, and conquer all of the underground, and possibly destroy Svirfneblin and conquer the surface.
Illithids become a problem. If the society remains bad after the calamity, they could start worshipping Mind Flayers or become thralls for them. If they are good and remain in the Underdark, they could work to drive out the rest of the Illithids. If they are good, and move to the surface, Mind Flayers can expand more, and become a stronger power.
This is how I would do it, and could see them doing it if they want to change Drow and Orcs in the Forgotten Realms.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
so since we are altering the drow in the near future, so they aren't an evil race. What could we do to make it more palatable while still having reusing the basic ideas. (Chaos theocracy, subjugation of the male drow, class structure)
Like what are the ideals behind this? How do they think this is good? What does the ideal drow look like to them?
How do we make this a highly flawed society rather than an evil race.
Add a fifth column type underground, similar to Bregan D'aerthe. Instead of rogue mercenaries, they are a pipeline for Drow to escape the influence of Lolth and get to either the surface or to Drow cities that are not under the influence of Lolth's priestesses.
You keep the flavor of Menzonerranzan, add some allies for surface dwellers that adventure in the Underdark, and only slightly diminish the impact of Drizzt do'Urden as a "Renegade Drow".
It should also be noted that other Drow cities were not Matriarchal and had different cultures. Menzoberranzan was unique in that it was a city of Lolth worshippers. Drow cities that venerated other Drow gods were not dominated by Lolth's priestesses. Menzonerranzan just gets all the attention because of Drizzt and the novels of R.A. Salvatore.
It might be nice to have a story for the journey from the old ways to the new ways - a movement rising from a marginalized group of Drow to overcome the obstacles of tradition and elitism.
A light-switch solution to merely change things feels hollow to me. A struggle to find a place in the Underdark feels like an investment worthy of heroes.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
I think the devotees of Lloth can still be the devotees of Lloth. Thanks to the popularity of Drizzt, significant numbers of good-aligned Drow, including good-aligned Drow gods, have been introduced into the game since at least D&D 3.0.
Eberron's Drow are not inherently evil, but as a civilization they do try to control the other creatures of their lands (as if humans do not) and don't want anything to do with the other elves, seeing them as kind of traitors (well, if there are going to be subraces at all, there kind of needs to be some animosity between them.)
i think way more allowance has been made for Drow to be good, despite being the only kind of elves that almost ever get to be bad guys, than has been made for other evil races simply because they are designed to be feminine and attractive. Not nearly so much effort has ever been put into reinventing the Duergar or Deep Gnomes or Goblins or Orcs.
And I don't think one needs to go so far as to reinvent them to the point that every single Drow in existence is friendly and loves humans. Rather, if it is generally perfectly understandable why they split from other elves and might have strong animosity for Dwarfs and humans-- so not evil for the sake of being evil, but if they felt wronged or betrayed or even if they did something wrong and got excessively punished and ostracized for it, so that if you run into a bunch of uniformed Drow soldiers, they are going to try to kill you or enslave you on sight. And an individual isn't going to be able to overcome that schism-- maybe with individuals they can meet under peaceful circumstances, but not with the whole race.
But if the Drow have been around for 10,000s of years and their core, dominate society is so generally brutal, then there are going to be some number of them who have split off from the main culture-- either willingly or unwillingly-- and maybe formed their own communities or they just headed for certain cities in the world where pretty much all people are relatively accepted.
But that's already definitely the case. But if one wants to make Drow look better, probably the first thing that can be done is have evil High Elves and Wood Elves, not random sole individuals who have gone bad-- but who communities of them who have just had enough of non-elves and will kill you in a horrific manner should you cross them. Because at that point it would become "Elves can be total jerks sometimes" and not "The light skinned elves are almost always good, the dark skinned ones are almost always evil-- but you can find some good dark skinned ones too."
Honestly, if I were to craft a new campaign world and implement them however I like, I think at this point I would get rid of subraces all together-- any given elf is going to be some mix of the traits of wood elf, high elf and drow, the ones you see in the more cosmopolitan areas will generally be neutral with some common positive traits and some common negative traits, but they can be both heroes and criminals but will tend to be so for very elven reasons regardless. When you have all elf communities, that's when you might have something that more lines up with the traditional subraces-- but all elf communities would generally be all-elf for a reason, if you aren't elf then they don't want you there and they might kill you just for getting too close so that their locations remain secret.
I like the idea of no subraces, unless there is something very specific. Drow being an elf who followed their goddess into the darkness underground and dominatr through powerful magic and brutal slavery Is a great idea, now that you open up the possibility of infiltration by good elves and their allies. Of course, the opposite is now possible: drow infiltrating good elvish society.
I like the possibilities.
The best answer is to push Eilistraee's "good" followers to the forefront. An opportunity was lost when she was "brought back" after she'd beaten Vhaeraun and became the Masked Lady. Put the Good drow on the surface and leave the lolth worshippers where they are.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Nothing...stupid not so fun fact Netflix just removed the episode of Community where Ken Jeong cosplays a Drow.
2020 sucks...
In my campaign setting, drow weren't originally evil. But they got corrupted by the power of the Abyss because they were summoning demons left and right, and the houses that summoned more demons became more corrupt and evil. Eventually, one of the houses broke off drow society and were branded as traitors by the other drow, and word of them never reached the surface.
There is no dawn after eternal night.
Homebrew: Magic items, Subclasses
They weren't always evil in most of the lore; they were cursed for following Lolth against Corellon Larethian
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
We don't have any indicated that existing Drow are changing, only that they're going to stop sticking to always evil.
They don't talk about changing in the future they talk about Eberron and Exandria where Drow aren't evil.
i'm really for looking something like what the klingon's have in star trek, were they do bad things but deep down there is this weird logic to it that can be explored as something positive despite the flaw but is still a long way from something good. Like so their can be drow Worf who fulfills the flawed Klingon ideals but is still bad.
My homebrew alignment is strictly lawful, neutral, and chaotic. Good and evil are points of view that change depending on who you're talking to.
Having said that my Drow are lawful and militaristic. They pursued the Illithid into the Underdark when the elves rose up against them. When the other subraces refused to pursue the Drow basically told them to get bent and grudges have been harbored ever since. Drow very much live by the sayings of might makes right, survival of the fittest, and the ends justify the means.
Lightning Strike - A rebranded Fire Bolt for Wizards & Sorcerers.
Spirit Bomb - A holy fireball for Clerics, Paladins, & Divine Soul Sorcerers!
Sword Dancer - A Cleric subclass specifically for the Drow goddess Eilistraee.
Quicksilver & The Scarlet Witch - A pair of magical firearms for your Gunslinger or Artificer.
I really like this. Good and evil generally depend on one's point of view. Very few people likely think that they are evil, even when a good many other people think them to be evil.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
The best option is to simply make them a variety of elves who have dark skin and may or may not prefer living underground. Don't tie the skin color to being cursed or having consorted with demons or whatever, they're dark skinned just because they're dark skinned and there's no particular significance about it.
Aside from that, just make sure that they're not a monoculture. Menzonerranzan isn't a place you want to visit, but neither is Luskan. Give the drow other cities that are different. And make it so that a drow walking into an average human city is something to be viewed as unusual, but most people who aren't heavily biased against elves will be more likely to react with casual curiosity over the stranger rather than locking up their children and reaching for their weapons.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I would make it so that some Drow cities are under constant assault by non-drow elves; the reason that they are harsh in these cities is because they need to to survive.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Interesting. I thought all mainstream drow cities worshipped Lloth, at least in the Realms.
You could emphasize Eilistraee and her followers, more like elves of starlight than elves of Darkness. Also, you could make it so the followers of Vhaeraun weren’t so much evil as an elvish version of MGTOW: not evil, but very different from the traditional gynocratic drow.
The Forgotten Realms could have another catastrophic event, like the Time of Troubles, Spellplague, Second Sundering or the like. Toril is no stranger to calamity, and there could easily be a change.
So, they can easily make up an excuse for such an event. In one of these possible catastrophes, maybe drow and orcs are freed from Lolth and Gruumsh. Maybe those deities die, are imprisoned, or just get tired of neverending wars and start loosening their grip on their races.
So, suddenly Orcs and Drow are freed from Gruumsh and Lolth respectively. Now, what plays out after this depends on the other events of the catastrophe, but it could follow something like this:
This is how I would do it, and could see them doing it if they want to change Drow and Orcs in the Forgotten Realms.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
@LeviRocks these are all really good ideas. I might use them if I ever run another drow PC or a campaign set in the Realms that involves the drow.