If that Wolf is a Beast of the Land Primal Companion it most certainly has a CR, it’s CR = the Ranger’s PB. That means it’s minimum CR is 2, and eventually it will increase all the way up to CR 6 when the Ranger hits 17th level. For PCs there is instruction to use Character level as CR.
A Beast of the Land Primal Companion can't be a wolf, and a wolf can't be a Beast of the Land Primal Companion. Your companion can have the form of a wolf, but it hasn't got the wolf's statblock, and it's a DM call how non-statblock features apply (such as being adapted to high altitudes).
Primal Companions are Challenge -. It says so right in their statblock, in Tasha's, very, very explicitly. None of them are CR 2 or CR PB.
Not so. A wolf cannot be a Primal Companion, where does it say that a Primal Companion can’t be a “wolf?” Hold to that and you’re just making stuff up.
“You magically summon a primal beast, which draws strength from your bond with nature. The beast is friendly to you and your companions and obeys your commands. Choose its stat block—Beast of the Land, Beast of the Sea, or Beast of the Sky—which uses your proficiency bonus (PB) in several places. You also determine the kind of animal the beast is, choosing a kind appropriate for the stat block. Whatever kind you choose, the beast bears primal markings, indicating its mystical origin.”
“Challenge — Proficiency Bonus (PB) equals your bonus
RAI may be that it has no CR, but that’s not RAW. What I read RAW is that it’s “Challenge” equals its Proficiency bonus, and that it’s proficiency bonus equals yours. WotC uses a hyphen (aka “dash”) to take indicate the thing after the hyphen directly relates to the thing before the hyphen in other instances as well, such as M components. Just go back to the example I cited above - Summon Undead. Under components it lists “V, S, M*” and at the bottom it includes “* - (a gilded skull worth at least 300 gp)” as an indication that what follows the hyphen relates to what preceded the hyphen, in this case a reference to the spell’s M component. Is it possible that they used a hyphen to mean two different things in two different places on the same spell? Sure. (Clarity is obviously not their strong suite.)
But it could have all been made absolutely clear by using “N/A” to indicate there is no CR. Or they could have listed challenge and PB on two different lines. Or they could have entirely omitted any reference to “challenge” from the relevant statblocks. Or they could have used punctuation such as a period, comma, or semicolon to indicate a separation between the two things. Or they could have omitted the use of hyphens entirely when it comes to M components. Or….
And specifically in regards to Summon Undead, if it’s CR is “—,” then how does that interact with Turn/Destroy/Controll Undead? Obviously “—” ≠ “0” or else it would just be CR 0. So does that mean if my BBE and co. spam the bejeepers outta Summon Undead that the party’s Cleric is SOL?!? I would think that ridiculous at best. At least with my interpretation the Destroy Undead table is relevant to a point.
If that Wolf is a Beast of the Land Primal Companion it most certainly has a CR, it’s CR = the Ranger’s PB. That means it’s minimum CR is 2, and eventually it will increase all the way up to CR 6 when the Ranger hits 17th level. For PCs there is instruction to use Character level as CR.
A Beast of the Land Primal Companion can't be a wolf, and a wolf can't be a Beast of the Land Primal Companion. Your companion can have the form of a wolf, but it hasn't got the wolf's statblock, and it's a DM call how non-statblock features apply (such as being adapted to high altitudes).
Primal Companions are Challenge -. It says so right in their statblock, in Tasha's, very, very explicitly. None of them are CR 2 or CR PB.
Not so. A wolf cannot be a Primal Companion, where does it say that a Primal Companion can’t be a “wolf?” Hold to that and you’re just making stuff up.
Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, page 61. Its kind can be "wolf". It chooses from a list of statblocks presented in Tasha's.
RAI may be that it has no CR, but that’s not RAW.
Yes, it's RAW. I don't know what you're quoting at me, but if it were the RAW, which it isn't, I'd get into the weeds of explaining em dashes to you. It isn't the RAW. I don't know if I can show you the RAW, but I'm going to try, and I apologize to the mods if this is against the rules.
What you can hopefully see is that even if an em dash were an equality symbol -which it is not - the RAW simply does not, at any point, state that CR = Proficiency Bonus. The image I provide here is not even a sentence, it's two distinct entries in a stat block - the entry for Proficiency Bonus is "equals your bonus" and the entry for Challenge is "—".
😉 I can do that too, only without the eeeextra long gap in the middle. See:
That's not Tasha's, I have Tasha's open in front of me. The red line below the Challenge rating is thicker on the left and thinner on the right. I don't know what you have open, but it's not Tasha's.
😉 I can do that too, only without the eeeextra long gap in the middle. See:
That's not Tasha's, I have Tasha's open in front of me. The red line below the Challenge rating is thicker on the left and thinner on the right. I don't know what you have open, but it's not Tasha's.
😉 I can do that too, only without the eeeextra long gap in the middle. See:
That's not Tasha's, I have Tasha's open in front of me. The red line below the Challenge rating is thicker on the left and thinner on the right. I don't know what you have open, but it's not Tasha's.
I'm posting images from a literal book from Wizards of the Coast. You're linking to a third party claiming to be presenting the information, and it's clearly been subjected to that third party's formatting. Since you're using the formatting to incorrectly interpret what a dash means, it seems relevant that the formatting you're quoting is not RAW.
First off, this isn’t just any old “third party,” it’s one of three officially licensed digital partners working with WotC. Second, the only one specifically siting formatting is you.
You still have not answered my very simple question. Assuming that you are correct and that all of these statblocks from Tasha’s Toilet bowel of Floaters that Refused to Flush and now We’re Stuck With Them indicate a CR of “—,” then how does one rectify summon undead with a Cleric’s Destroy Undead feature? Riddle me that if you can.
It appears No CR of the defender, which by extension, means no cr for the Beast Master and the like.
Exactly. Steel Defenders have the exact same Challenge rating, of "-". So do Homunculi in Tasha's. All 5 of the three Primal Companion statblocks, the Steel Defender statblock, and the Homunculus infusion statblock have the Challenge - [whitespace gap] Proficiency Bonus equals your bonus line. So do all of the Summon X spell statblocks, as well as Dancing Items and Wildfire Spirits.
Dndbeyond's formatting choices when re-presenting information are not rules text, as folks are so fond of arguing to me when we talk about Net damage. The RAW, actual printing of Tasha's shows "Proficiency -" and then far enough away to clearly be a different section, "Proficiency Bonus (PB) equals your bonus". The RAW phrasing tells us those aren't connected, the RAW spacing tells us they aren't connected, the RAW punctuation used tells us they aren't connected, and the RAW bolding tells us they aren't connected. On top of that, we have the SAC telling us that it isn't intended they're connected (I personally don't care, but you might). And on top of that, we have conventional rules about how CR and Proficiency Bonus interact telling us it would be VERY WEIRD if they were connected. And also, player characters and their features don't usually have CR's at all.
There's like....7 reasons to see that they aren't connected, 4 of which are explicitly RAW. Versus... you arguing that it's somehow obvious that all of that is wrong, and that CR = PB = Character PB.
Sposta, it's okay to admit that you didn't know what the printed RAW in Tasha's looked like, I think most of us don't have a physical copy to reference, and it's never fun to find out that dndbeyond laid a trap for you like that.
Hey I was incorrect, and I am def cool with that. Better now than at the table and it happening XD. As for the turn undead it probably would just kill it since it would effectively be 0.
In the stat block, each distinct stat is denoted by Bolded Text.
In every single Stat Block, the CR of the creature is listed side-by-side with its Proficiency Bonus, even though the other stats in the block are each given their own distinct line. This is most likely because CR and PB are always just a short series of numbers, as opposed to all the other stats which could list several other features, such as multiple weaknesses or immunities, so it saves physical space in printed books to set the two side-by-side, and that format has extended to digital versions as well.
So, if the CR of creatures like Primal Companions and Steel defenders are meant to be read as "CR --- Proficiency Bonus equals your bonus", then it is the only stat block that displays CR in that manner, and also apparently does not list a Proficiency Bonus. However, if it's meant to be read as "CR ---" and with PB listed as a separate stat of "Proficiency Bonus equals your bonus", then it is more in line with the stats of every other creature in the bestiary.
I do agree that it would create less confusion if the CR for them was listed as "N/A" or something else that didn't have the potential to be easily misread, but at the end of the day that's not what happened and we just have to make do with what we've been given.
Again, what I don’t understand is why they didn’t just skip listing “Challenge” at all. Why did they even include it? Why not simply omit the damned thing?!? Why the frag can’t these dips learn from their own mistakes and make things unambiguous in the first place?!? And why the hell does anyone ever anywhere think Crawford’s Twitter is in any way official?!? Why does Crawford?!? AAARG!!! I already think Crawford should be fired for that flustercluck that got printed in Tasha’s, but now even more so.
That didn't either, but I hope this goes to show that dndbeyond links aren't necessarily RAW. As I said, the servant's PB is explicitly listed in the book as +7, not +2.
Not so. A wolf cannot be a Primal Companion, where does it say that a Primal Companion can’t be a “wolf?” Hold to that and you’re just making stuff up.
RAI may be that it has no CR, but that’s not RAW. What I read RAW is that it’s “Challenge” equals its Proficiency bonus, and that it’s proficiency bonus equals yours. WotC uses a hyphen (aka “dash”) to take indicate the thing after the hyphen directly relates to the thing before the hyphen in other instances as well, such as M components. Just go back to the example I cited above - Summon Undead. Under components it lists “V, S, M*” and at the bottom it includes “* - (a gilded skull worth at least 300 gp)” as an indication that what follows the hyphen relates to what preceded the hyphen, in this case a reference to the spell’s M component. Is it possible that they used a hyphen to mean two different things in two different places on the same spell? Sure. (Clarity is obviously not their strong suite.)
But it could have all been made absolutely clear by using “N/A” to indicate there is no CR. Or they could have listed challenge and PB on two different lines. Or they could have entirely omitted any reference to “challenge” from the relevant statblocks. Or they could have used punctuation such as a period, comma, or semicolon to indicate a separation between the two things. Or they could have omitted the use of hyphens entirely when it comes to M components. Or….
And specifically in regards to Summon Undead, if it’s CR is “—,” then how does that interact with Turn/Destroy/Controll Undead? Obviously “—” ≠ “0” or else it would just be CR 0. So does that mean if my BBE and co. spam the bejeepers outta Summon Undead that the party’s Cleric is SOL?!? I would think that ridiculous at best. At least with my interpretation the Destroy Undead table is relevant to a point.
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Man, I have to say I thought I was the only one unsure of how they meant this. I am so glad to see I'm not alone on this.
Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, page 61. Its kind can be "wolf". It chooses from a list of statblocks presented in Tasha's.
Yes, it's RAW. I don't know what you're quoting at me, but if it were the RAW, which it isn't, I'd get into the weeds of explaining em dashes to you. It isn't the RAW. I don't know if I can show you the RAW, but I'm going to try, and I apologize to the mods if this is against the rules.
What you can hopefully see is that even if an em dash were an equality symbol - which it is not - the RAW simply does not, at any point, state that CR = Proficiency Bonus. The image I provide here is not even a sentence, it's two distinct entries in a stat block - the entry for Proficiency Bonus is "equals your bonus" and the entry for Challenge is "—".
😉 I can do that too, only without the eeeextra long gap in the middle. See:
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That's not Tasha's, I have Tasha's open in front of me. The red line below the Challenge rating is thicker on the left and thinner on the right. I don't know what you have open, but it's not Tasha's.
Here:
See, kinda like how they used the hyphen here to indicate that “this” has to do with “that”
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The **** it isn’t. https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/tcoe/ranger#BeastMasterCompanions
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Does it look different in print than on Beyond?
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I'm posting images from a literal book from Wizards of the Coast. You're linking to a third party claiming to be presenting the information, and it's clearly been subjected to that third party's formatting. Since you're using the formatting to incorrectly interpret what a dash means, it seems relevant that the formatting you're quoting is not RAW.
Yes.
The PHB has no dashes at all in the description of the Alarm spell.
OK! So! I found the official answer (just had to ask the right question).
https://www.sageadvice.eu/how-does-polymorph-interact-with-the-steel-defender-since-it-doesnt-have-a-cr-rating/
It appears No CR of the defender, which by extension, means no cr for the Beast Master and the like.
First off, this isn’t just any old “third party,” it’s one of three officially licensed digital partners working with WotC. Second, the only one specifically siting formatting is you.
You still have not answered my very simple question. Assuming that you are correct and that all of these statblocks from Tasha’s Toilet bowel of Floaters that Refused to Flush and now We’re Stuck With Them indicate a CR of “—,” then how does one rectify summon undead with a Cleric’s Destroy Undead feature? Riddle me that if you can.
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Exactly. Steel Defenders have the exact same Challenge rating, of "-". So do Homunculi in Tasha's. All 5 of the three Primal Companion statblocks, the Steel Defender statblock, and the Homunculus infusion statblock have the Challenge - [whitespace gap] Proficiency Bonus equals your bonus line. So do all of the Summon X spell statblocks, as well as Dancing Items and Wildfire Spirits.
This just means an entirely different set of paradoxes that need to be addressed. Yet more evidence that Crawford needs to be replaced.
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Dndbeyond's formatting choices when re-presenting information are not rules text, as folks are so fond of arguing to me when we talk about Net damage. The RAW, actual printing of Tasha's shows "Proficiency -" and then far enough away to clearly be a different section, "Proficiency Bonus (PB) equals your bonus". The RAW phrasing tells us those aren't connected, the RAW spacing tells us they aren't connected, the RAW punctuation used tells us they aren't connected, and the RAW bolding tells us they aren't connected. On top of that, we have the SAC telling us that it isn't intended they're connected (I personally don't care, but you might). And on top of that, we have conventional rules about how CR and Proficiency Bonus interact telling us it would be VERY WEIRD if they were connected. And also, player characters and their features don't usually have CR's at all.
There's like....7 reasons to see that they aren't connected, 4 of which are explicitly RAW. Versus... you arguing that it's somehow obvious that all of that is wrong, and that CR = PB = Character PB.
Sposta, it's okay to admit that you didn't know what the printed RAW in Tasha's looked like, I think most of us don't have a physical copy to reference, and it's never fun to find out that dndbeyond laid a trap for you like that.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Hey I was incorrect, and I am def cool with that. Better now than at the table and it happening XD. As for the turn undead it probably would just kill it since it would effectively be 0.
So, here's the thing on statblocks...
In the stat block, each distinct stat is denoted by Bolded Text.
In every single Stat Block, the CR of the creature is listed side-by-side with its Proficiency Bonus, even though the other stats in the block are each given their own distinct line. This is most likely because CR and PB are always just a short series of numbers, as opposed to all the other stats which could list several other features, such as multiple weaknesses or immunities, so it saves physical space in printed books to set the two side-by-side, and that format has extended to digital versions as well.
So, if the CR of creatures like Primal Companions and Steel defenders are meant to be read as "CR --- Proficiency Bonus equals your bonus", then it is the only stat block that displays CR in that manner, and also apparently does not list a Proficiency Bonus. However, if it's meant to be read as "CR ---" and with PB listed as a separate stat of "Proficiency Bonus equals your bonus", then it is more in line with the stats of every other creature in the bestiary.
I do agree that it would create less confusion if the CR for them was listed as "N/A" or something else that didn't have the potential to be easily misread, but at the end of the day that's not what happened and we just have to make do with what we've been given.
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Again, what I don’t understand is why they didn’t just skip listing “Challenge” at all. Why did they even include it? Why not simply omit the damned thing?!? Why the frag can’t these dips learn from their own mistakes and make things unambiguous in the first place?!? And why the hell does anyone ever anywhere think Crawford’s Twitter is in any way official?!? Why does Crawford?!? AAARG!!! I already think Crawford should be fired for that flustercluck that got printed in Tasha’s, but now even more so.
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If this works, Tasha's has a monster in it with Challenge dash PB +7. I hope this link works, and helps.
Mighty Servant of Leuk-o
Ok, that didn't. The real monster is explicitly PB+7, not PB+2. Let me try the magic item.
Mighty Servant of Leuk-o
That didn't either, but I hope this goes to show that dndbeyond links aren't necessarily RAW. As I said, the servant's PB is explicitly listed in the book as +7, not +2.