My EK has just reached level 7, and I am pondering what Feat I will be taking for him at level 8. As the topic suggests, I am torn between Shield Master and Mobile.
Regarding Shield Master, it's definitely nice to be able to Shove and get an enemy prone, especially with my +8 to Athletics. The advantage on Dex saves (on things that target just me) and the pseudo-Evasion aspect are equally useful, as A) I'm not proficient in Dex saves, B) I have a Dex modifier of 0, and C) As a Fighter I'm far more vulnerable to spells than to physical attacks. That being said, now that I have War Magic I'm less likely to be taking the Attack action (necessary to trigger the Bonus Action Shove) and more likely to be casting a cantrip (Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade), thus granting me 2 melee attacks plus the cantrip's damage.
Regarding Mobile: I'm a dwarf, so upping my movement to 35 from 25 really helps me move about the Battle Field (Misty Step will come in handy when I get around to 'learning' it, but it's always the best use of my limited spell slots in combat; I mostly use Shield and Absorb Elements). The Dash not being affected by difficult terrain is OKish. But the main perk is that I don't provoke opportunity attacks from creatures I have melee attacked, which is a nice combo with Booming Blade. I.E. I cast Booming Blade, get in my 2 melee attacks, and move out of melee, which makes it likely the creature will have to move to re-engage me, which in turn triggers the thunder damage from Booming Blade.
Spoiled for choices and completely indecisive! Anyone have some thoughts? Oh, and I'm sure someone will be quick to suggest War Caster, to which I say this: At present I have no spells that require Concentration (not to mention a +6 to Con checks already), and I conveniently work around the Somatic problem that Sword & Board casters face by dropping my weapon after attacking and summoning it back with my Bonus Action. The 3rd part of War Caster would actually be nice though, as I can cast Booming Blade as my attack of opportunity, and then when they move the thunder damage will trigger. So I suppose it's in the conversation. SMH.
Shield Master: The order hurts it. You can already shove instead of an attack, first, so this only benefits you At All if you can't attack as a bonus action. As a S&B fighter that's certainly possible, in fact likely, since you don't qualify for the feats which grant it (polearms and crossbows), by RAW equivalent feats for other weapon types don't exist, you don't have any class features which grant them, etc. However even then, you're getting them prone After you've already made your attacks. Once you're getting 3 attacks per turn, shove attack attack is arguably better than attack attack attack shove, depending on the specific to hit figures needed, so even if you have the ability, you may not use it. It's a useful feat, don't get me wrong, just keep in mind the requirement the shove occurs After the attack action makes it not as useful as it could have been.
Mobile: I love mobile, but I love it most on those who can dash as a bonus action, which you can not. As to avoiding the opportunity attack, that's nice and all, but keep in mind: You're the fighter. You're the pile of HP. There are LOTS of things a creature can use its reaction for, which stink a lot more than making an opportunity attack against you. Like, for example, making them against a squishier target, or counterspelling a fireball your wizard is casting, or using cutting words to make a Rogue's sneak attack miss, and so on. This is another case of 'even when I can, do I actually want to?' coming into play.
Indeed there are lots of great options, and the two you listed are fine options, it would not be wrong at all to take either of those. Personally for someone like your character, I love specifically the Combo of Mage Slayer and War Caster. It leaves them in a "no good options" position when next to you. They can cast the spell, sure, but then you get to attack them and you have advantage on All saves vs effects they cast at you, including dominate and charm effects, paralyze effects, and anything else particularly nasty. Alternately, they can move, but if they move, you get to do something like what you said and use Booming Blade, which does a ton of damage to them. Either way is a win for you; the fact that you never lose concentration if and when you use it, while they can't keep spells going, is a cherry on top. Just my preference, both mobile and shield master are great.
You are incorrect about the Order of Operations. On your turn your Action Order is entirely agnostic. It's the same reason you can move, attack, move. Shield Master is an amazing feat because 1) It lets you Shove as a Bonus Action instead of using one of your precious precious Attack Actions. 1-1) This Bonus Action can be used first, but you then HAVE to use your Action for an Attack. If it works you have Advantage on all future attacks. 2) It gives you an inferior version of Evasion (it uses up your ReAction) 2-1) Remember bonus to reflex is based on your shield's bonus so a magic +1 shield improves your Dex Sav vs. spells 3) It gives you better Dex Savs verses single target spells 3-1) Remember bonus to reflex is based on your shield's bonus so a magic +1 shield improves your Dex Sav vs. spells
The problem with Shield Master as an EK is that both of your hands are busy. This means you can't use any ReAction spells that require somatic or material components because you don't have a hand available. (note: Absorb Elements and Shield are both some of the best lvl 1 spells that require Verbal and Somatic ReActions) You can still use your Action to cast a spell, because you use your free Interact with Environment to sheath your weapon 1st. Note: this means you don't have it out for AoOs! This can be fixed with Warcaster, but then you are 2 feats deep to accomplish what you want! That said Warcaster and Booming Blade are a horrifically good combination because you can cast a Cantrip as an AoO, but it's a lot to sink in.
I do agree with GiantOctopodes for Mobility. I disagree with "you're a pile of HP" frankly most classes have very little HP difference these days and HP should never be wasted. That said you should have a higher AC then most classes and have enough HP to take a few more hits. He is right Mobility is better on "striker" classes like Rogue, Monk, Moon Druid, Hexblade, etc... People that fear retaliation for their attacks.
Note. You cannot use Booming Blade and Attack Action with Extra Attack in the same turn. Both require using you Action. The only possible way to do this is with 3 levels of Sorcerer with Quicken Spell to raise a Cantrip to a Bonus Action. You are either using Booming Blade to make a single strong attack (recommended if you have Adv from an Ally as it only works for 1 attack) OR you are making 2 attacks.
Eh, I think I've already made my opinion on Crawford's rulings known. Good to know he's "clarified" this as well, but I will point out that in normal english, using "if you use the attack action on your turn, you can" rather than "on a turn in which you intend to use the attack action, you can" implies a requirement to use the attack action prior to gaining the benefit. Otherwise you have not yet used the attack action on your turn, and normal english would not allow you to gain the benefit under the promise of future compliance. After all, what if another hostile had hold person readied for you shoving the enemy? You shove the enemy, the readied action triggers, you get held, and now you are unable to attack, which results in you being paralyzed and unable to take actions, which means you did not use the attack action, which means you should not have been able to shove as a bonus action. "I intended to" doesn't seem particularly weighty in that circumstance.
Do you get what I'm saying there? Certainly if you abide by that ruling, Shield Master is made stronger, but it opens it up for logical paradox and failed requirements, as well, and is basically a modification of the rules. Just saying.
Regarding the "Note" at the end of FMB's post...EK Level 7 feature of War Magic. When I cast a cantrip I can use a bonus action to make a melee attack. That's where the 2 attacks come from, not Extra Attack.
1-1) This Bonus Action can be used first, but you then HAVE to use your Action for an Attack. If it works you have Advantage on all future attacks.
Jeremy revised several Sage Advice answers in August 2017. One of the answers revised was this one:
Does the “when” in the Eldritch Knight’s War Magic feature mean the bonus attack comes after you cast the cantrip, or can it come before?
The bonus action comes after the cantrip, since using your action to cast a cantrip is what gives you the ability to make the weapon attack as a bonus action. That said, a DM would break nothing in the system by allowing an Eldritch Knight to reverse the order of the cantrip and the weapon attack.
Honestly, the original 2015 ruling that said you could do the bonus action in reverse order never made any sense to me. Intending to do an action isn't the same as taking it, and the most straightforward interpretation of "if you do X, you can do Y as a bonus action" is that X has to come before Y.
Note. You cannot use Booming Blade and Attack Action with Extra Attack in the same turn. Both require using you Action. The only possible way to do this is with 3 levels of Sorcerer with Quicken Spell to raise a Cantrip to a Bonus Action.
Eldritch Knights can make an attack as a bonus action after casting a cantrip.
I agree with GiantOctopodes regarding Booming Blade: you're a fighter, you can take the occasional opportunity attack if you want to force the enemy to move with Booming Blade. You don't need Mobility for that. That said, the "difficult terrain" part of Mobility is more handy than you think, because your allies' space is difficult terrain. However, as a Fighter, you should be able to fight reasonably well from any range, so it's not as useful to you as it would be for a Monk or Barbarian.
If you ask me, I'd take War Caster (especially if you can snag Shadow Blade later) or an ASI.
Warcaster and Sentinel are my two go-to for Eldritch Knight. Get someone to either pick on you, or they suffer AoOs.
If you're doing the Booming Blade + bonus action attack, I see absolutely no reason to invest in Shield Master. Sure, its a bit more defense against Dex-stuff, but I'd rather rely on Absorb Elements for that anyways.
Hmmm, Shadow Blade seems quite interesting. Taking spells out of Evocation and Abjuration isn't easy for me as an EK, but definitely doable. So in anticipation of that, would it work like this?
Round 1: I attack normally twice (not gonna use War Magic here cuz Shadow Blade needs the Bonus Action), then I use my free interact to sheathe my weapon, followed by the Bonus Action summoning of Shadow Blade.
Round 2: I cast Booming Blade, allowing me 1 bonus melee attack from War Magic, and 1 as part of the BB cantrip, and both are made with the damage output of the Shadow Blade? So if I hit both times it would be 2d8 + damage modifier each hit? And then leaving the BB trigger on the stack (if you'll pardon the MtG reference ;) ).
If that is correct, then umm yeah, that sounds fantastic, and probably better than what I was going to take for 2nd level spells.
Regarding ASI, the reason I'm taking a feat here is I am already at a 20 STR, with a 16 CON and 14 INT. I am many levels away from spells that make my Spellcasting Ability relevant so I'm in no hurry to boost INT.
Mephista: Both of those options sound cool, but with only 1 reaction per round I find myself with too many options. Absorb Elements: reaction. Shield: Reaction. War Caster AoO: reaction. Sentinel AoO: reaction.
Round 1: I attack normally twice (not gonna use War Magic here cuz Shadow Blade needs the Bonus Action), then I use my free interact to sheathe my weapon, followed by the Bonus Action summoning of Shadow Blade.
Why not sheathe your weapon, cast Shadow Blade, then attack twice?
Round 2: I cast Booming Blade, allowing me 1 bonus melee attack from War Magic, and 1 as part of the BB cantrip, and both are made with the damage output of the Shadow Blade? So if I hit both times it would be 2d8 + damage modifier each hit? And then leaving the BB trigger on the stack (if you'll pardon the MtG reference ;) ).
Yup.
Regarding ASI, the reason I'm taking a feat here is I am already at a 20 STR, with a 16 CON and 14 INT. I am many levels away from spells that make my Spellcasting Ability relevant so I'm in no hurry to boost INT.
Makes sense.
Another concentration spell you might be interested in for tanking is Warding Wind. It debuted in the Elemental Evil Player's Companion but XGtE added it to the wizard spell list. It's a nice way to interfere with ranged weapons and make it harder for enemies to run past you, but it's a double-edged sword so it definitely depends on your party.
Round 1: I attack normally twice (not gonna use War Magic here cuz Shadow Blade needs the Bonus Action), then I use my free interact to sheathe my weapon, followed by the Bonus Action summoning of Shadow Blade.
Why not sheathe your weapon, cast Shadow Blade, then attack twice?
Ummmm, because I'm an idiot? lol Okay, I'm super sold on this!
Another concentration spell you might be interested in for tanking is Warding Wind. It debuted in the Elemental Evil Player's Companion but XGtE added it to the wizard spell list. It's a nice way to interfere with ranged weapons and make it harder for enemies to run past you, but it's a double-edged sword so it definitely depends on your party.
If this also imposed disadvantage on ranged spell attacks I would find it more useful. Having high-level mages pester me with Fire Bolt from 120 feet away would be worth it. The other stuff seems fine, but also can create some havoc for my group (as you suggested) due to multiple melee fighters; hile I keep enemies occupied our Rogue slips in and out, just as 1 example.
Mephista: Both of those options sound cool, but with only 1 reaction per round I find myself with too many options. Absorb Elements: reaction. Shield: Reaction. War Caster AoO: reaction. Sentinel AoO: reaction.
I generally find that Shield and Absorb Elements tend to be stored up and used in specific scenarios, which leaves your reaction rather open ended in the majority of turns. IE - you're surrounded and being attacked. Which is where Sentinel comes into play - people will either attack you (in which case you need the Shield), or they will bite your blade. Sentinel is there to actually trigger the Reactions; far too often I find that Fighter's aren't very sticky and get ignored. In my personal experience, they work really well together, making your Fighter a very sticky option that enemies will have trouble passing..
Of course, if you have the Protection FS, then this strategy isn't that hot, but if not, that's another matter..
War Caster's main use is actually to allow the use of a shield and advantage on Concentration - being able to AoO with a cantrip still requires you to have an AoO, which is pretty rare without Sentinel or something else provoking it.
The advantage on Dex saves (on things that target just me)
All 6 of them?
That is (from the PHB): Acid Splash (as long as the caster doesn't choose to target 2 creatures), Chain Lightning (if there are no other targets within 30 feet of you), Disintegrate, Hellish Rebuke, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere,, and Sacred Flame.
As a contrary opinion, have you considerd Strength +2. That gives you a bonus to attacks, damage, and athletics as well as more carrying capacity.
As an epilogue to this, we reached the end of the module before hitting level 8. (Possible spoiler coming...) One member of our party was "foolish" enough to get too close to the Pool of Radiance and was taken over by Tyranthraxus. After a series of unfortunate events he led us into the dragon's lair (Maimed Virulence) and more or less instigated a fight between us and the dragon. Long story short, the entire party died lol and fairly quickly.
However, as a post-mortem to the end of the campaign, our DM had us roll level 16's, using the same classes. We were out character's descendants come to take revenge on the dragon. We were all allowed 1 magical item of our choice (excluding Legendary). I ended up taking the Dwarven Thrower, along with Sharpshooter, Mobile, Resilient (Dex) and Shield Master; War Caster didn't seem like it was going to factor into the situation. In addition to the dragon there was also a Death Tyrant and a cleric. The fight lasted only 3 rounds, though it took almost 2 hours with all the Lair actions, legendary actions and the constant saving throws from the Death Tyrant's tentacles. Was fun to see what combat is like at those levels, though in hindsight it felt almost too easy. One awesome highlight was towards the end; out Cleric was being grappled by the dragon, who had him about 25 feet up. He upcast Inflict Wounds at 8th level and hit him for 10d10 (ended up doing about 78 damage). The dragon died and fell, while still holding the cleric, who had to make a dex save to avoid being crushed by the weight of the dragon falling on him lol
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
My EK has just reached level 7, and I am pondering what Feat I will be taking for him at level 8. As the topic suggests, I am torn between Shield Master and Mobile.
Regarding Shield Master, it's definitely nice to be able to Shove and get an enemy prone, especially with my +8 to Athletics. The advantage on Dex saves (on things that target just me) and the pseudo-Evasion aspect are equally useful, as A) I'm not proficient in Dex saves, B) I have a Dex modifier of 0, and C) As a Fighter I'm far more vulnerable to spells than to physical attacks. That being said, now that I have War Magic I'm less likely to be taking the Attack action (necessary to trigger the Bonus Action Shove) and more likely to be casting a cantrip (Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade), thus granting me 2 melee attacks plus the cantrip's damage.
Regarding Mobile: I'm a dwarf, so upping my movement to 35 from 25 really helps me move about the Battle Field (Misty Step will come in handy when I get around to 'learning' it, but it's always the best use of my limited spell slots in combat; I mostly use Shield and Absorb Elements). The Dash not being affected by difficult terrain is OKish. But the main perk is that I don't provoke opportunity attacks from creatures I have melee attacked, which is a nice combo with Booming Blade. I.E. I cast Booming Blade, get in my 2 melee attacks, and move out of melee, which makes it likely the creature will have to move to re-engage me, which in turn triggers the thunder damage from Booming Blade.
Spoiled for choices and completely indecisive! Anyone have some thoughts? Oh, and I'm sure someone will be quick to suggest War Caster, to which I say this: At present I have no spells that require Concentration (not to mention a +6 to Con checks already), and I conveniently work around the Somatic problem that Sword & Board casters face by dropping my weapon after attacking and summoning it back with my Bonus Action. The 3rd part of War Caster would actually be nice though, as I can cast Booming Blade as my attack of opportunity, and then when they move the thunder damage will trigger. So I suppose it's in the conversation. SMH.
Shield Master: The order hurts it. You can already shove instead of an attack, first, so this only benefits you At All if you can't attack as a bonus action. As a S&B fighter that's certainly possible, in fact likely, since you don't qualify for the feats which grant it (polearms and crossbows), by RAW equivalent feats for other weapon types don't exist, you don't have any class features which grant them, etc. However even then, you're getting them prone After you've already made your attacks. Once you're getting 3 attacks per turn, shove attack attack is arguably better than attack attack attack shove, depending on the specific to hit figures needed, so even if you have the ability, you may not use it. It's a useful feat, don't get me wrong, just keep in mind the requirement the shove occurs After the attack action makes it not as useful as it could have been.
Mobile: I love mobile, but I love it most on those who can dash as a bonus action, which you can not. As to avoiding the opportunity attack, that's nice and all, but keep in mind: You're the fighter. You're the pile of HP. There are LOTS of things a creature can use its reaction for, which stink a lot more than making an opportunity attack against you. Like, for example, making them against a squishier target, or counterspelling a fireball your wizard is casting, or using cutting words to make a Rogue's sneak attack miss, and so on. This is another case of 'even when I can, do I actually want to?' coming into play.
Indeed there are lots of great options, and the two you listed are fine options, it would not be wrong at all to take either of those. Personally for someone like your character, I love specifically the Combo of Mage Slayer and War Caster. It leaves them in a "no good options" position when next to you. They can cast the spell, sure, but then you get to attack them and you have advantage on All saves vs effects they cast at you, including dominate and charm effects, paralyze effects, and anything else particularly nasty. Alternately, they can move, but if they move, you get to do something like what you said and use Booming Blade, which does a ton of damage to them. Either way is a win for you; the fact that you never lose concentration if and when you use it, while they can't keep spells going, is a cherry on top. Just my preference, both mobile and shield master are great.
GiantOctopodes,
You are incorrect about the Order of Operations.
On your turn your Action Order is entirely agnostic. It's the same reason you can move, attack, move.
Shield Master is an amazing feat because
1) It lets you Shove as a Bonus Action instead of using one of your precious precious Attack Actions.
1-1) This Bonus Action can be used first, but you then HAVE to use your Action for an Attack. If it works you have Advantage on all future attacks.
2) It gives you an inferior version of Evasion (it uses up your ReAction)
2-1) Remember bonus to reflex is based on your shield's bonus so a magic +1 shield improves your Dex Sav vs. spells
3) It gives you better Dex Savs verses single target spells
3-1) Remember bonus to reflex is based on your shield's bonus so a magic +1 shield improves your Dex Sav vs. spells
The problem with Shield Master as an EK is that both of your hands are busy. This means you can't use any ReAction spells that require somatic or material components because you don't have a hand available. (note: Absorb Elements and Shield are both some of the best lvl 1 spells that require Verbal and Somatic ReActions)
You can still use your Action to cast a spell, because you use your free Interact with Environment to sheath your weapon 1st. Note: this means you don't have it out for AoOs!
This can be fixed with Warcaster, but then you are 2 feats deep to accomplish what you want!
That said Warcaster and Booming Blade are a horrifically good combination because you can cast a Cantrip as an AoO, but it's a lot to sink in.
I do agree with GiantOctopodes for Mobility. I disagree with "you're a pile of HP" frankly most classes have very little HP difference these days and HP should never be wasted. That said you should have a higher AC then most classes and have enough HP to take a few more hits. He is right Mobility is better on "striker" classes like Rogue, Monk, Moon Druid, Hexblade, etc... People that fear retaliation for their attacks.
Note. You cannot use Booming Blade and Attack Action with Extra Attack in the same turn. Both require using you Action. The only possible way to do this is with 3 levels of Sorcerer with Quicken Spell to raise a Cantrip to a Bonus Action.
You are either using Booming Blade to make a single strong attack (recommended if you have Adv from an Ally as it only works for 1 attack) OR you are making 2 attacks.
Eh, I think I've already made my opinion on Crawford's rulings known. Good to know he's "clarified" this as well, but I will point out that in normal english, using "if you use the attack action on your turn, you can" rather than "on a turn in which you intend to use the attack action, you can" implies a requirement to use the attack action prior to gaining the benefit. Otherwise you have not yet used the attack action on your turn, and normal english would not allow you to gain the benefit under the promise of future compliance. After all, what if another hostile had hold person readied for you shoving the enemy? You shove the enemy, the readied action triggers, you get held, and now you are unable to attack, which results in you being paralyzed and unable to take actions, which means you did not use the attack action, which means you should not have been able to shove as a bonus action. "I intended to" doesn't seem particularly weighty in that circumstance.
Do you get what I'm saying there? Certainly if you abide by that ruling, Shield Master is made stronger, but it opens it up for logical paradox and failed requirements, as well, and is basically a modification of the rules. Just saying.
Regarding the "Note" at the end of FMB's post...EK Level 7 feature of War Magic. When I cast a cantrip I can use a bonus action to make a melee attack. That's where the 2 attacks come from, not Extra Attack.
Jeremy revised several Sage Advice answers in August 2017. One of the answers revised was this one:
The same logic applies to Shield Master.
Honestly, the original 2015 ruling that said you could do the bonus action in reverse order never made any sense to me. Intending to do an action isn't the same as taking it, and the most straightforward interpretation of "if you do X, you can do Y as a bonus action" is that X has to come before Y.
Eldritch Knights can make an attack as a bonus action after casting a cantrip.
I agree with GiantOctopodes regarding Booming Blade: you're a fighter, you can take the occasional opportunity attack if you want to force the enemy to move with Booming Blade. You don't need Mobility for that. That said, the "difficult terrain" part of Mobility is more handy than you think, because your allies' space is difficult terrain. However, as a Fighter, you should be able to fight reasonably well from any range, so it's not as useful to you as it would be for a Monk or Barbarian.
If you ask me, I'd take War Caster (especially if you can snag Shadow Blade later) or an ASI.
Warcaster and Sentinel are my two go-to for Eldritch Knight. Get someone to either pick on you, or they suffer AoOs.
If you're doing the Booming Blade + bonus action attack, I see absolutely no reason to invest in Shield Master. Sure, its a bit more defense against Dex-stuff, but I'd rather rely on Absorb Elements for that anyways.
Hmmm, Shadow Blade seems quite interesting. Taking spells out of Evocation and Abjuration isn't easy for me as an EK, but definitely doable. So in anticipation of that, would it work like this?
Round 1: I attack normally twice (not gonna use War Magic here cuz Shadow Blade needs the Bonus Action), then I use my free interact to sheathe my weapon, followed by the Bonus Action summoning of Shadow Blade.
Round 2: I cast Booming Blade, allowing me 1 bonus melee attack from War Magic, and 1 as part of the BB cantrip, and both are made with the damage output of the Shadow Blade? So if I hit both times it would be 2d8 + damage modifier each hit? And then leaving the BB trigger on the stack (if you'll pardon the MtG reference ;) ).
If that is correct, then umm yeah, that sounds fantastic, and probably better than what I was going to take for 2nd level spells.
Regarding ASI, the reason I'm taking a feat here is I am already at a 20 STR, with a 16 CON and 14 INT. I am many levels away from spells that make my Spellcasting Ability relevant so I'm in no hurry to boost INT.
Mephista: Both of those options sound cool, but with only 1 reaction per round I find myself with too many options. Absorb Elements: reaction. Shield: Reaction. War Caster AoO: reaction. Sentinel AoO: reaction.
Why not sheathe your weapon, cast Shadow Blade, then attack twice?
Yup.
All 6 of them?
That is (from the PHB): Acid Splash (as long as the caster doesn't choose to target 2 creatures), Chain Lightning (if there are no other targets within 30 feet of you), Disintegrate, Hellish Rebuke, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere,, and Sacred Flame.
As a contrary opinion, have you considerd Strength +2. That gives you a bonus to attacks, damage, and athletics as well as more carrying capacity.
There's also the Rust Monster's Antennae, Purple Worm's Bite, and Beholder's slow/petrification/disintegration/death rays.
I agree that's the least useful part of the feat by far though.
As an epilogue to this, we reached the end of the module before hitting level 8. (Possible spoiler coming...) One member of our party was "foolish" enough to get too close to the Pool of Radiance and was taken over by Tyranthraxus. After a series of unfortunate events he led us into the dragon's lair (Maimed Virulence) and more or less instigated a fight between us and the dragon. Long story short, the entire party died lol and fairly quickly.
However, as a post-mortem to the end of the campaign, our DM had us roll level 16's, using the same classes. We were out character's descendants come to take revenge on the dragon. We were all allowed 1 magical item of our choice (excluding Legendary). I ended up taking the Dwarven Thrower, along with Sharpshooter, Mobile, Resilient (Dex) and Shield Master; War Caster didn't seem like it was going to factor into the situation. In addition to the dragon there was also a Death Tyrant and a cleric. The fight lasted only 3 rounds, though it took almost 2 hours with all the Lair actions, legendary actions and the constant saving throws from the Death Tyrant's tentacles. Was fun to see what combat is like at those levels, though in hindsight it felt almost too easy. One awesome highlight was towards the end; out Cleric was being grappled by the dragon, who had him about 25 feet up. He upcast Inflict Wounds at 8th level and hit him for 10d10 (ended up doing about 78 damage). The dragon died and fell, while still holding the cleric, who had to make a dex save to avoid being crushed by the weight of the dragon falling on him lol