I was recently creating a Lore Bard and noticed that conjure animals allows the caster to choose whichever empty spaces they’d like within 60ft for the critters to appear in. It doesn't specify that they have to be on the ground, so my question is can you create a line of cows vertically over someones head and have them fall onto them dealing a pile of crushing damage and if so;
How much damage would each cow do? Would it be equal to the falling damage of that cow?
Cows are large, would their falling (on) damage be greater than that of a small or medium creature?
Would the creature being crushed by the vertical stampede get some kind of saving throw?
After the cow hits does it fall into a different space? Two creatures can't occupy the same space especially if one (or eight) of them are large
If it does equal the falling damage of each cow than it could deal around four times the damage of a fire ball on a single target, or you could spread the cows out and deal 12d6 (each) against four targets without friendly fire. Does this work? Thoughts if your players tried this? Funny cow jokes?
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Learning is power, power corrupts, study hard be Evil.
I like this. It sounds like a fun way to use a spell that is commonly criticized for bogging down combat. If I were a DM might let the target max a DEX save for a chance to halve the damage (much like fireball) and at 15HP the cows would likely "die" on impact (they would reach 0 HP) so at least you don't have to worry about which space they would then occupy.
I'm not sure where you're getting the 12d6. You take 1d6 damage for every 10 feet you fall. Falling 60ft would cause 6d6 damage to the cow, and I'd reason that that would be a reasonable amount of damage to take from being hit by said falling cow. I don't think that the damage should be greater between medium and large creatures. Someone else brought up that they are fey spirits so, for simplicity's sake, I'd rule that all medium or larger animals conjured by the spell do the same 6d6 bludgeoning damage.
As for multiple cows attacking a single target...I'd say that you could not. Since they are all falling simultaneously, each space on the map either has a cow falling on it, or it doesn't. It doesn't really make sense for two cows falling on top of each other to cause appreciably more damage than one. Remember, HP is sort of an abstraction. "Damage" can be interpreted as loss of stamina due to dodging the cow, not just being hit by it.
If you plan on doing this, try talking to your DM for you can figure it out in a way that makes sense and satisfies both of you.
I was recently creating a Lore Bard and noticed that conjure animals allows the caster to choose whichever empty spaces they’d like within 60ft for the critters to appear in. It doesn't specify that they have to be on the ground, so my question is can you create a line of cows vertically over someones head and have them fall onto them
5e's rules don't really address damage from falling objects, or cow stats, and canonically (in previous editions) creatures were previously supposed to be conjured "in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it". Also, it's the DM that technically decides what creatures are summoned, and should probably decide on aerial creatures if you designate a point in the air.
That said: there is no reason that you couldn't say, re-flavor a Giant Goat as a Cow (so eight "Cows" are conjured), and re-flavor their initial charge attack as "fallin' on yer head": +5 to hit, 13 dmg, DC13 Str save or be knocked prone
"I wonder if it’ll be friends with me? Hello Ground!" - Whale, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
5e's rules don't really address damage from falling objects, or stats for cows, and canonically (in previous editions) creatures were previously supposed to be conjured "in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it". Also, it's the DM that technically decides what creatures are summoned, and should probably decide on aerial creatures if you designate a point in the air.
That said: there is no reason that you couldn't say, re-flavor a Giant Goat as a Cow (so eight "Cows" are conjured), and re-flavor their initial charge attack as "fallin' on yer head": +5 to hit, 13 dmg, DC13 Str save or be knocked prone
"I wonder if it’ll be friends with me? Hello Ground!" - Whale, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Taking everything everyone has already stated into account; I'd add that ifthe DM rules that such a situation would work and cause damage--the damage should scale in line with a spell of similar level rather than trying calculate the damage based on the Falling rules. Since it's a 3rd level spell--regardless of the technicalities of a falling cow--it should max out at dealing either 5d10 damage for one target or 6d6 damage for multiple targets and maybe have some added condition such as being knocked prone.
I'd go with 4d6 and allow a save. Give people in a large-ish area a chance to be hit with 1-2 cows. This keeps it both interesting and in-line with the damage output of other 3rd lvl spells.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
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"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
If the range is 60 feet, though, you aren't dropping a 60 foot high cow on anyone but yourself. Rather than fiddling with algebra and whatnot, probably just drop elevation by 5 feet for every 5 feet out you want to cast Drop Cows. Cows cannot spawn in the same square, and monster size is a cube, so at most, if you're targeting something 10 feet away from you with a single-line stack of cows, you're only going to get to spawn 5 in the air and have 5d6+4d6+3d6+2d6+1d6. But as someone above said, allowing pure fall damage for each cow instead of abstracting it as "pile of cow" is a little much (at some point, the pile would protect you from further cows?), so just calling the spell a 8d6 damage spell makes a little more sense and is more manageable. Like I said, the further out you target the less high the cows are... so let's call it a 30 foot range spell, doing 8d6 damage affecting a 15 foot square to recognize a slightly untidy pile, dex save for half damage.
That's in line with fireball, and I don't think there's necessarily a balance problem with leaving it at 8d6 with a save for half, considering that there's more situational limitations on dropping cows from the sky then there are on throwing a fireball. Can't drop cows if you're indoors or in a forest, non-magical bludgeoning is a less useful damage type than fire is, a 60 foot range is a lot shorter than 150 feet for fireball, the affected area will be smaller, you're killing all of your cows with this casting rather than letting them hang around to clutter up the battlefield and make attacks... I think we even deserve some additional effects for burying someone under a pile of cowflesh, certainly knocking them prone on a failed save would make sense.
Entering a Square. To enter a square, you must have at least 1 square of movement left, even if the square is diagonally adjacent to the square you’re in. (The rule for diagonal movement sacrifices realism for the sake of smooth play. The Dungeon Master’s Guide provides guidance on using a more realistic approach.)
and for the range it says
Ranges. To determine the range on a grid between two things—whether creatures or objects—start counting squares from a square adjacent to one of them and stop counting in the space of the other one. Count by the shortest route.
so you can count spaces diagonally as if you were counting straight. You could count diagonally up to 60 feet away from you both on the X and Y plane to drop a cow on someone from 60 feet up, correct me if I'm wrong but this is the assumption I based the targeting off of. Thanks for your input!
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Learning is power, power corrupts, study hard be Evil.
Well, that's counting diagonal along a flat 2-dimensional plane of "squares", not necessarily diagonal upwards through cubed "spaces"... but I take your point, the simplest way is to just say 60 foot range includes 60 feet out+60 feet up. If that's how you want to do it, sure expand the spell range of Conjure Drop Cows out to 60 feet, shouldn't make it too much more powerful.
They are fey spirits as stated in the spell, not actual animals, so as a DM I would likely rule they are weightless. Conjure Animals.
They take on all of the statistics of a beast, though. Other than also counting as fey and disappearing at 0 HP, there's no difference between a conjured-spirit-turned-cow and a real cow.
Technically, you don't actually get to choose the beasts... you provide the CR, and your DM decides what appears.
This is correct. As the DM, you'd normally give them something appropriate for their environment; you wouldn't screw the player by giving them a cow underwater or a dolphin in dry land. But by that same token, I wouldn't give them a cow if they choose a space in mid-air either.
I'd probably argue that you also can't 'see' the unoccupied spaces in the sky, as there's nothing to 'see' within 60 feet to summon them to.
An unoccupied space is as easy to see in the air as it is on the ground - it's just empty space.
On moving diagonally the PHB states this ... and for the range it says ...
Keep in mind those are optional rules for playing on a grid. They only apply if you play on a grid and the DM decides to use them. The DMG also has a different rule for diagonals.
Speaking from experience, don't force your DM to answer this question. Conjure Animals is already a highly effective spell as it is.
I actually tried this exact thing while playing through Storm King's Thunder, though it was with horses. We were escaping a Fire Giant climbing an elevator shaft, and my druid decided to conjure eight animals to drop on his head. The DM ruled I had to summon them on a solid surface, so I did, and then I promptly ordered the horses to jump into the shaft. For some reason, the DM went along with this. And perhaps because he's a science nerd, he decided not to abstract the damage, and so the eight horses fell on top of the giant (who really had no room to evade) and killed him.
The DM then proceeded to punish me by describing, in horrific detail, the sound of eight horses being crushed. My druid spent the next few sessions apologizing to every horse he encountered and using Wild Shape to turn into a horse to understand "how it feels."
So an alternative answer - maybe your druid could summon eight cows and drop them to their deaths, but I don't know that any respectful druid should.
In line with what jreggres said, I'd like to point out that these are fey critters, and calling out fey critters to merely have them die immediately could engender bad will with the fey community. Which is not a good thing for most.
And summoning eight cows to take hits for you in combat against a dragon, that would engender better will? The bodies vanish at death or at the end of the spell equally, the spirits being released back to whence they came. They're being summoned to fight and 'die' for you while wearing temporary flesh, I'm not sure body slamming a giant is a worse way to go than getting stepped on.
my druid decided to conjure eight animals to drop on his head. The DM ruled I had to summon them on a solid surface, so I did, and then I promptly ordered the horses to jump into the shaft. For some reason, the DM went along with this.
Nice! That's how I'd handle it. As for damage: I'd might treat it as a reflavored Warhorses' Trampling Charge (with advantage)... or just declare the giant dead...
I would probably allow this once, but if you're going to be regularly crushing people with falling animals, I'd ask you to make a custom spell that's a bit less problematic. Maybe "Boulder Fall" that drops boulders over an area and does damage as a fireball.
And summoning eight cows to take hits for you in combat against a dragon, that would engender better will?
Fey spirits are the embodiment of extreme emotions, including that of the thrill of hunting, or honor, etc. Some of them want to be remembered for heroic deeds. As long as they can fulfill their basic drives, they'll be happy. As well, creatures you summon get to act with their own will. There's a difference between recruiting fey creatures to your battles, and using them as casual sacrifices that earn scorn and laughter. You're literally suggesting to treat the fey as jokes. That's just insulting. That tends to end very badly for most involved in stories. You can't claim that conjuring backup war potential and summoning something to effectively inflict pain and humiliation on it are equivalent. Even if we assume that the summons have the intellect of an animal, we're still talking about using pact instincts to work together, versus slaughtering said pack. Which one engenders good will in an animal? Definitely not the latter.
Fey creatures also often double as the spirits of nature that druids are supposedly on good terms with.
And its not like you will always get cows, you know? The DM decides what shows up, not the player. You might get a bunch of cats (cait siths, nekomata, etc).
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I was recently creating a Lore Bard and noticed that conjure animals allows the caster to choose whichever empty spaces they’d like within 60ft for the critters to appear in. It doesn't specify that they have to be on the ground, so my question is can you create a line of cows vertically over someones head and have them fall onto them dealing a pile of crushing damage and if so;
How much damage would each cow do? Would it be equal to the falling damage of that cow?
Cows are large, would their falling (on) damage be greater than that of a small or medium creature?
Would the creature being crushed by the vertical stampede get some kind of saving throw?
After the cow hits does it fall into a different space? Two creatures can't occupy the same space especially if one (or eight) of them are large
If it does equal the falling damage of each cow than it could deal around four times the damage of a fire ball on a single target, or you could spread the cows out and deal 12d6 (each) against four targets without friendly fire. Does this work? Thoughts if your players tried this? Funny cow jokes?
Learning is power, power corrupts, study hard be Evil.
I like the way you think.
I'm guessing the target might get an acrobatics (DEX) save to evade a falling cow if they were in a position to attempt to evade.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
They are fey spirits as stated in the spell, not actual animals, so as a DM I would likely rule they are weightless. Conjure Animals.
I like this. It sounds like a fun way to use a spell that is commonly criticized for bogging down combat. If I were a DM might let the target max a DEX save for a chance to halve the damage (much like fireball) and at 15HP the cows would likely "die" on impact (they would reach 0 HP) so at least you don't have to worry about which space they would then occupy.
I'm not sure where you're getting the 12d6. You take 1d6 damage for every 10 feet you fall. Falling 60ft would cause 6d6 damage to the cow, and I'd reason that that would be a reasonable amount of damage to take from being hit by said falling cow. I don't think that the damage should be greater between medium and large creatures. Someone else brought up that they are fey spirits so, for simplicity's sake, I'd rule that all medium or larger animals conjured by the spell do the same 6d6 bludgeoning damage.
As for multiple cows attacking a single target...I'd say that you could not. Since they are all falling simultaneously, each space on the map either has a cow falling on it, or it doesn't. It doesn't really make sense for two cows falling on top of each other to cause appreciably more damage than one. Remember, HP is sort of an abstraction. "Damage" can be interpreted as loss of stamina due to dodging the cow, not just being hit by it.
If you plan on doing this, try talking to your DM for you can figure it out in a way that makes sense and satisfies both of you.
Technically, you don't actually get to choose the beasts... you provide the CR, and your DM decides what appears.
I'd probably argue that you also can't 'see' the unoccupied spaces in the sky, as there's nothing to 'see' within 60 feet to summon them to.
But technically, your DM can rule whatever they like, so...
5e's rules don't really address damage from falling objects, or cow stats, and canonically (in previous editions) creatures were previously supposed to be conjured "in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it". Also, it's the DM that technically decides what creatures are summoned, and should probably decide on aerial creatures if you designate a point in the air.
That said: there is no reason that you couldn't say, re-flavor a Giant Goat as a Cow (so eight "Cows" are conjured), and re-flavor their initial charge attack as "fallin' on yer head": +5 to hit, 13 dmg, DC13 Str save or be knocked prone
"I wonder if it’ll be friends with me? Hello Ground!" - Whale, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Actually, Volo's introduced stats for the Cow.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
12d6 was for two cows each falling from 65 and 60 feet crashing down on four targets. Each target taking 2(6d6) bludgeoning damage
Learning is power, power corrupts, study hard be Evil.
Taking everything everyone has already stated into account; I'd add that if the DM rules that such a situation would work and cause damage--the damage should scale in line with a spell of similar level rather than trying calculate the damage based on the Falling rules. Since it's a 3rd level spell--regardless of the technicalities of a falling cow--it should max out at dealing either 5d10 damage for one target or 6d6 damage for multiple targets and maybe have some added condition such as being knocked prone.
I'd go with 4d6 and allow a save. Give people in a large-ish area a chance to be hit with 1-2 cows. This keeps it both interesting and in-line with the damage output of other 3rd lvl spells.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
If the range is 60 feet, though, you aren't dropping a 60 foot high cow on anyone but yourself. Rather than fiddling with algebra and whatnot, probably just drop elevation by 5 feet for every 5 feet out you want to cast Drop Cows. Cows cannot spawn in the same square, and monster size is a cube, so at most, if you're targeting something 10 feet away from you with a single-line stack of cows, you're only going to get to spawn 5 in the air and have 5d6+4d6+3d6+2d6+1d6. But as someone above said, allowing pure fall damage for each cow instead of abstracting it as "pile of cow" is a little much (at some point, the pile would protect you from further cows?), so just calling the spell a 8d6 damage spell makes a little more sense and is more manageable. Like I said, the further out you target the less high the cows are... so let's call it a 30 foot range spell, doing 8d6 damage affecting a 15 foot square to recognize a slightly untidy pile, dex save for half damage.
That's in line with fireball, and I don't think there's necessarily a balance problem with leaving it at 8d6 with a save for half, considering that there's more situational limitations on dropping cows from the sky then there are on throwing a fireball. Can't drop cows if you're indoors or in a forest, non-magical bludgeoning is a less useful damage type than fire is, a 60 foot range is a lot shorter than 150 feet for fireball, the affected area will be smaller, you're killing all of your cows with this casting rather than letting them hang around to clutter up the battlefield and make attacks... I think we even deserve some additional effects for burying someone under a pile of cowflesh, certainly knocking them prone on a failed save would make sense.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
On moving diagonally the PHB states this
Entering a Square. To enter a square, you must have at least 1 square of movement left, even if the square is diagonally adjacent to the square you’re in. (The rule for diagonal movement sacrifices realism for the sake of smooth play. The Dungeon Master’s Guide provides guidance on using a more realistic approach.)
and for the range it says
Ranges. To determine the range on a grid between two things—whether creatures or objects—start counting squares from a square adjacent to one of them and stop counting in the space of the other one. Count by the shortest route.
so you can count spaces diagonally as if you were counting straight. You could count diagonally up to 60 feet away from you both on the X and Y plane to drop a cow on someone from 60 feet up, correct me if I'm wrong but this is the assumption I based the targeting off of. Thanks for your input!
Learning is power, power corrupts, study hard be Evil.
Well, that's counting diagonal along a flat 2-dimensional plane of "squares", not necessarily diagonal upwards through cubed "spaces"... but I take your point, the simplest way is to just say 60 foot range includes 60 feet out+60 feet up. If that's how you want to do it, sure expand the spell range of Conjure Drop Cows out to 60 feet, shouldn't make it too much more powerful.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
They take on all of the statistics of a beast, though. Other than also counting as fey and disappearing at 0 HP, there's no difference between a conjured-spirit-turned-cow and a real cow.
This is correct. As the DM, you'd normally give them something appropriate for their environment; you wouldn't screw the player by giving them a cow underwater or a dolphin in dry land. But by that same token, I wouldn't give them a cow if they choose a space in mid-air either.
An unoccupied space is as easy to see in the air as it is on the ground - it's just empty space.
Keep in mind those are optional rules for playing on a grid. They only apply if you play on a grid and the DM decides to use them. The DMG also has a different rule for diagonals.
Speaking from experience, don't force your DM to answer this question. Conjure Animals is already a highly effective spell as it is.
I actually tried this exact thing while playing through Storm King's Thunder, though it was with horses. We were escaping a Fire Giant climbing an elevator shaft, and my druid decided to conjure eight animals to drop on his head. The DM ruled I had to summon them on a solid surface, so I did, and then I promptly ordered the horses to jump into the shaft. For some reason, the DM went along with this. And perhaps because he's a science nerd, he decided not to abstract the damage, and so the eight horses fell on top of the giant (who really had no room to evade) and killed him.
The DM then proceeded to punish me by describing, in horrific detail, the sound of eight horses being crushed. My druid spent the next few sessions apologizing to every horse he encountered and using Wild Shape to turn into a horse to understand "how it feels."
So an alternative answer - maybe your druid could summon eight cows and drop them to their deaths, but I don't know that any respectful druid should.
In line with what jreggres said, I'd like to point out that these are fey critters, and calling out fey critters to merely have them die immediately could engender bad will with the fey community. Which is not a good thing for most.
And summoning eight cows to take hits for you in combat against a dragon, that would engender better will? The bodies vanish at death or at the end of the spell equally, the spirits being released back to whence they came. They're being summoned to fight and 'die' for you while wearing temporary flesh, I'm not sure body slamming a giant is a worse way to go than getting stepped on.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Nice! That's how I'd handle it. As for damage: I'd might treat it as a reflavored Warhorses' Trampling Charge (with advantage)... or just declare the giant dead...
I would probably allow this once, but if you're going to be regularly crushing people with falling animals, I'd ask you to make a custom spell that's a bit less problematic. Maybe "Boulder Fall" that drops boulders over an area and does damage as a fireball.
Fey spirits are the embodiment of extreme emotions, including that of the thrill of hunting, or honor, etc. Some of them want to be remembered for heroic deeds. As long as they can fulfill their basic drives, they'll be happy. As well, creatures you summon get to act with their own will. There's a difference between recruiting fey creatures to your battles, and using them as casual sacrifices that earn scorn and laughter. You're literally suggesting to treat the fey as jokes. That's just insulting. That tends to end very badly for most involved in stories. You can't claim that conjuring backup war potential and summoning something to effectively inflict pain and humiliation on it are equivalent. Even if we assume that the summons have the intellect of an animal, we're still talking about using pact instincts to work together, versus slaughtering said pack. Which one engenders good will in an animal? Definitely not the latter.
Fey creatures also often double as the spirits of nature that druids are supposedly on good terms with.
And its not like you will always get cows, you know? The DM decides what shows up, not the player. You might get a bunch of cats (cait siths, nekomata, etc).