at most the security will see a weirdo going full blown nuts in the middle of the streets, that won’t warrant gunning them down,
Um... have you met the secret service? A weirdo trespassing and planting stuff in a secure zone is 100% getting arrested, and quite possibly tackled in the process.
PS have you read Teleport? It's not accurate down to the centimeter, it's not even accurate down to the scale of feet. In many cases, it dumps you thousands of kilometers away from where you wanted to go.
It’s accurate down to the feet depending on how well searched the location has been, nothing says they can’t use Greater Invisibility and teleport there to look around for a quick second or just scry there to get details.
Its not like the dragon's location would be found out if they just keep dumping giant rocks over military sites with teleportation.
at most the security will see a weirdo going full blown nuts in the middle of the streets, that won’t warrant gunning them down,
Um... have you met the secret service? A weirdo trespassing and planting stuff in a secure zone is 100% getting arrested, and quite possibly tackled in the process.
PS have you read Teleport? It's not accurate down to the centimeter, it's not even accurate down to the scale of feet. In many cases, it dumps you thousands of kilometers away from where you wanted to go.
It’s accurate down to the feet depending on how well searched the location has been, nothing says they can’t use Greater Invisibility and teleport there to look around for a quick second or just scry there to get details.
Its not like the dragon's location would be found out if they just keep dumping giant rocks over military sites with teleportation.
I mean the secret service would probably at least be a bit spooked if they started hearing voices disconnected from any visuals, but the dragon would probably still be fairly cushy while invisble.
Why is the assassination attempt always “teleport in, attack, teleport out” anyway?
The dragon (as a human) could cast Greater Invisibility close by, then have a quick sprint with a knife. One minute should be more than enough time to at least slip to somewhere you could recast it (they’d probably hear the recasting, but invisibility makes visual tracking a bit difficult).
Sprint where, though, precisely? Into the presidential supersecured bunker? Behind dozens of armored gates, layers upon layers of security, literally hundreds of heavily armed guards? And also, does invisiblity even work against IR? And ... I'm sorry, but there are other sensors besides that. Like, at there very least there are metal detectors - but maybe it's a plastic knife.
But I think that's why it's always teleport. Because you get to bypass the physical security.
1. The dragon could still be fairly fine even if they set off alarms due to the nature of invisibility; they’d just have to slip to a spot out of sight from physically present guards every minute
2. I’d assume that magical invisibility has some way to counter IR vision and similar.
1. The dragon could still be fairly fine even if they set off alarms due to the nature of invisibility; they’d just have to slip to a spot out of sight from physically present guards every minute
2. I’d assume that magical invisibility has some way to counter IR vision and similar.
1. But how is it getting around? There are theckpoints, locked doors, surveillance (literally everywhere - this is the hypothetical leader of the free world secure command bunker, not the local pharmacy). Once a breach is detected, there will be guys physically blocking all doorways. Because, as I already said, this is the second hypothetical leader of the true world. Former vice potential leader of the free world, promoted to actual potential leader of the free world after the first dragon assassination worked. We know we're facing a supernatural threat, everyone is competent and knows what they're doing.
2. I mean even if we ignore the rest - like why would invisibility (no matter how magical) works against something the caster doesn't even know exists? But how does the dragon move forward? There are layers upon layers of security. And who says IR is the worst it has to sorry about. Pressure sensors in the floors, audio sensors. How does the invisible dragon handle something as mundane as an automatic door? Does it turn visible, to get through?
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
1. But how is it getting around? There are theckpoints, locked doors, surveillance (literally everywhere - this is the hypothetical leader of the free world secure command bunker, not the local pharmacy). Once a breach is detected, there will be guys physically blocking all doorways. Because, as I already said, this is the second hypothetical leader of the true world. Former vice potential leader of the free world, promoted to actual potential leader of the free world after the first dragon assassination worked. We know we're facing a supernatural threat, everyone is competent and knows what they're doing.
2. I mean even if we ignore the rest - like why would invisibility (no matter how magical) works against something the caster doesn't even know exists? But how does the dragon move forward? There are layers upon layers of security. And who says IR is the worst it has to sorry about. Pressure sensors in the floors, audio sensors. How does the invisible dragon handle something as mundane as an automatic door? Does it turn visible, to get through?
1. We forgot that shapechange could turn you into an ant or a dust mite, you could just do that and get around easily, no one would notice nor care about an ant crawling around. Sure they know the dragon could be anywhere, anyone and everyone, but you cannot be paranoid enough to think an actual dust mite might be a dragon. Also why not just kill everyone in the room along with the president? What’s stopping them from tearing apart the bark of the tree instead of the tip so to say? You can’t really assume ALL of Europe would be competent, there’s gotta be a moron or two with a couple screws loose at least, nothings really stopping them from murdering every official on the continent via Scrying, Teleport and Shapechange until they just run out of competent people with ideas that overlap more than kill dragons. Sure everyone agrees dragons are a threat, but how do you even what to deal with em?
Increase conscription and try to tune anything to detect a dragon, well some people aren’t going to be happy with that, false alarms can happen and incorrect reports could appear if they assume animals acting strange are dragons. Lure them to a kill zone would prove to be ineffective after the first few times. Investigate everyone and risk watching as they destroy an entire towns worth of people to take everything down with them?
People are gonna become paranoid, it’s like the Red Scare back in America, who knows, if your neighbour says genocide of an intelligent species without attempts at parley may not be a pacifist, but a cunning dragon attempting to destabilise your government!
2. I don't think we need to argue about if it works against heat vision, that opens up enough cans of worms as is. Also doesn’t stealth also imply being quiet as well, I don’t see how that would not work unless the audio sensors were jacked up like mad. Pressure sensors make sense though.
1. I didn't forget anything. Yes, a sufficiently determined dragon can find a way to be in the room. Shape change is just silly. If you want to suicide-dragon-bomb the hypothetical leader of the free world, you teleport in and accept you're not getting back out. Everything else is just fun and games.
We can and should assume that ALL Europeans are competent enough. Your rank and file infantry man requires a relatively relaxed level of competence, whereas the elite guards surrounding the hypothetical leader of the free world requires rather a lot more competence - but still no more than can be found. Really, for that job you require more but still moderate competence, combined with a sort of testosterone-fuelled irrationality, tempered most likely by repetitive training (I don't educate bodyguards, I don't really know - but I do know they really need to accept the posibility of dying on the job).
Kill zones aren't the weapon of choice to kill off the dragons. They're just there to prove a point: You can't mess with our command structure, we kill you handily when you try. No, weapons are the weapon of choice to kill off the dragons. To be precise: Precision, long range, super sonic weapons. I like to talk about fighter jets, but frankly, most will propably be launched from loitering drones.
2. Really, the invisibility discussion is a side track. I don't deny dragons can find a way in - that way is almost certainly teleport - my point is that they die for it. Frankly, I think the whole contention can be boiled down to one point: A dragon doesn't last even a single round in a room full of people with assault rifles. I think this is true. Some think this is false.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
What about gaseous cloud? A dragon who knew how to cast that would have a very easy time of sneaking into any place. Also, have we not accounted for aa diversion? If a few dragons caused a big enough distraction then a few other could stone shape/gaseous cloud into the bunker and quite literally incinerate anyone in their way. Plus, white dragons and black dragons would be very useful in sealing of entryways with their breath weapons. Lastly, if their was such thing as a kamikaze dragon then nowhere would be safe.
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- Igglywiv the Wizard
I played every class, now playing every sub-class.
You would not believe how much ADHD helps with creating campaigns!
1. I didn't forget anything. Yes, a sufficiently determined dragon can find a way to be in the room. Shape change is just silly. If you want to suicide-dragon-bomb the hypothetical leader of the free world, you teleport in and accept you're not getting back out. Everything else is just fun and games.
We can and should assume that ALL Europeans are competent enough. Your rank and file infantry man requires a relatively relaxed level of competence, whereas the elite guards surrounding the hypothetical leader of the free world requires rather a lot more competence - but still no more than can be found. Really, for that job you require more but still moderate competence, combined with a sort of testosterone-fuelled irrationality, tempered most likely by repetitive training (I don't educate bodyguards, I don't really know - but I do know they really need to accept the posibility of dying on the job).
Kill zones aren't the weapon of choice to kill off the dragons. They're just there to prove a point: You can't mess with our command structure, we kill you handily when you try. No, weapons are the weapon of choice to kill off the dragons. To be precise: Precision, long range, super sonic weapons. I like to talk about fighter jets, but frankly, most will propably be launched from loitering drones.
2. Really, the invisibility discussion is a side track. I don't deny dragons can find a way in - that way is almost certainly teleport - my point is that they die for it. Frankly, I think the whole contention can be boiled down to one point: A dragon doesn't last even a single round in a room full of people with assault rifles. I think this is true. Some think this is false.
I also would like to add that Dragon scales are likely stronger than crocodile scute. If they are than assult riffles wouldn't do much to a dragon unless they target the eyes. Even so, might I remind you how dangerous even blind dragons can be. Think of Sol Regan from Dragon Prince.
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- Igglywiv the Wizard
I played every class, now playing every sub-class.
You would not believe how much ADHD helps with creating campaigns!
What about gaseous cloud? A dragon who knew how to cast that would have a very easy time of sneaking into any place. Also, have we not accounted for aa diversion? If a few dragons caused a big enough distraction then a few other could stone shape/gaseous cloud into the bunker and quite literally incinerate anyone in their way. Plus, white dragons and black dragons would be very useful in sealing of entryways with their breath weapons. Lastly, if their was such thing as a kamikaze dragon then nowhere would be safe.
I've said repeatedly: The dragon can maybe get in. It will be by teleporting. All the other ways in are way, way less sure. So just teleport.
What diversion? My whole point is that the dragon get's one shot at taking out the hypothetical leader of the free world. If it wins initiative, it succeeds, then dies. If not, it just dies.
Breath weapon sounds mega impressive until you realise it get's maybe 4 guys if you're lucky - and then, again, the dragon dies.
Nowhere is ever truly safe. But kamikaze dragons seem a contradiction in terms, no? How they get so old, then? Very patient kamikaze dragons?
I also would like to add that Dragon scales are likely stronger than crocodile scute. If they are than assult riffles wouldn't do much to a dragon unless they target the eyes. Even so, might I remind you how dangerous even blind dragons can be. Think of Sol Regan from Dragon Prince.
That's ..... that's just not true at all. Even ceramic plate doesn't really stop bullets - not at point blank range, not fired at full auto, and not from serious rifles. They don't have to be 5,56mm, they could easily be 7,62. Hell, if experience showed that 7,62 has trouble, no reason they can't all have 12mm Browning M2's. Which makes swiss cheese out of a M113 armored personel carrier.
Just .. let me know if you further want to upgrade this armor. There is no chance in the world what to ever that the dragon lives once a fight is on. We'll just pick a weapon that works. Although if it withstands the M2, we're already stretching it way beyond the limits of believability.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
at most the security will see a weirdo going full blown nuts in the middle of the streets, that won’t warrant gunning them down,
Um... have you met the secret service? A weirdo trespassing and planting stuff in a secure zone is 100% getting arrested, and quite possibly tackled in the process.
PS have you read Teleport? It's not accurate down to the centimeter, it's not even accurate down to the scale of feet. In many cases, it dumps you thousands of kilometers away from where you wanted to go.
It’s accurate down to the feet depending on how well searched the location has been, nothing says they can’t use Greater Invisibility and teleport there to look around for a quick second or just scry there to get details.
Its not like the dragon's location would be found out if they just keep dumping giant rocks over military sites with teleportation.
I mean the secret service would probably at least be a bit spooked if they started hearing voices disconnected from any visuals, but the dragon would probably still be fairly cushy while invisble.
An adult dragon is the size of a horse, an ancient one is the size of a elephant. How are they moving around in a TV studio or press conference without bumping into people or knocking over cameras.
What about gaseous cloud? A dragon who knew how to cast that would have a very easy time of sneaking into any place. Also, have we not accounted for aa diversion? If a few dragons caused a big enough distraction then a few other could stone shape/gaseous cloud into the bunker and quite literally incinerate anyone in their way. Plus, white dragons and black dragons would be very useful in sealing of entryways with their breath weapons. Lastly, if their was such thing as a kamikaze dragon then nowhere would be safe.
I've said repeatedly: The dragon can maybe get in. It will be by teleporting. All the other ways in are way, way less sure. So just teleport.
What diversion? My whole point is that the dragon get's one shot at taking out the hypothetical leader of the free world. If it wins initiative, it succeeds, then dies. If not, it just dies.
Breath weapon sounds mega impressive until you realise it get's maybe 4 guys if you're lucky - and then, again, the dragon dies.
Nowhere is ever truly safe. But kamikaze dragons seem a contradiction in terms, no? How they get so old, then? Very patient kamikaze dragons?
I also would like to add that Dragon scales are likely stronger than crocodile scute. If they are than assult riffles wouldn't do much to a dragon unless they target the eyes. Even so, might I remind you how dangerous even blind dragons can be. Think of Sol Regan from Dragon Prince.
That's ..... that's just not true at all. Even ceramic plate doesn't really stop bullets - not at point blank range, not fired at full auto, and not from serious rifles. They don't have to be 5,56mm, they could easily be 7,62. Hell, if experience showed that 7,62 has trouble, no reason they can't all have 12mm Browning M2's. Which makes swiss cheese out of a M113 armored personel carrier.
Just .. let me know if you further want to upgrade this armor. There is no chance in the world what to ever that the dragon lives once a fight is on. We'll just pick a weapon that works. Although if it withstands the M2, we're already stretching it way beyond the limits of believability.
A dragon's scales are 20cm thick on average (Thank you mythlopedic knowledge!). Therefore, a bullet fired from anything less than a mounted gun would not be able to penetrate a 20cm, harder than steel, magically enhanced, substance. Also the dragon only turns kamikaze because it needs to. Additionally, no one ever said that the dragons only had one shot to kill the leader. Also, if a dragon could even survive one round they could easily kill said leader.
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- Igglywiv the Wizard
I played every class, now playing every sub-class.
You would not believe how much ADHD helps with creating campaigns!
Even if you dismiss this knowledge, a dragon is absolutely capable of eating powerful rounds from assault rifles.
A Demon Grinder has an AC of 19, when it’s a 10-crew gargantuan machine designed to obliterate any demon to rams into. The Demon Grinder is as heavy as a semi-truck with light cargo, which is pretty indicative that it’s the closest equivalent to a modern day tank.
The thing is, an adult red dragon makes a Demon Grinder look like an actual toy, with significantly higher health. This means that at the very least, an adult red dragon is above even the strongest hell machine in terms of durability, higher than what is only the natural progression of Mad Max. So not only would a dragon's scale be on par with actual war machines, but its health also means that it is somehow able to survive injuries that a Demon Grinder cannot, which ranges from ramming into an army of huge sized demons who’s very strikes cut through mortal metal like butter and a barrage cannon shots directly to the core of the system.
If you say that a hell machine is in no way equal to a modern tank, those with canian armour would like to disagree. With a base AC of 22 + Dexterity, that means that even their hell bikes are on pare with the armour capacity of an actual tank, which an ancient dragon could easily reach. So at the very least, the dragon could realistically survive an entire battalion firing upon it like I calculated, or it could just ignore any that aren’t designed to destroy a tank if it’s ancient.
Imagine the live action transformers scene with Blackout appearing in the military base, only the dragon would be much faster to act. That’s what’s going to happen with an ancient dragon’s vast array of spells to help to enter without anyone knowing. They won’t even have time to fire any shots before the dragon has already wipes half of their men from existence.
An ancient dragon is smarter than anyone in the military, stronger than any tank, can fly, cast spells and has thousands of years of combat prowess under its name, after its initial confusion with the modern day world, it will be more lethal and accurate than any bombardment ever could.
at most the security will see a weirdo going full blown nuts in the middle of the streets, that won’t warrant gunning them down,
Um... have you met the secret service? A weirdo trespassing and planting stuff in a secure zone is 100% getting arrested, and quite possibly tackled in the process.
PS have you read Teleport? It's not accurate down to the centimeter, it's not even accurate down to the scale of feet. In many cases, it dumps you thousands of kilometers away from where you wanted to go.
It’s accurate down to the feet depending on how well searched the location has been, nothing says they can’t use Greater Invisibility and teleport there to look around for a quick second or just scry there to get details.
Its not like the dragon's location would be found out if they just keep dumping giant rocks over military sites with teleportation.
I mean the secret service would probably at least be a bit spooked if they started hearing voices disconnected from any visuals, but the dragon would probably still be fairly cushy while invisble.
An adult dragon is the size of a horse, an ancient one is the size of an elephant. How are they moving around in a TV studio or press conference without bumping into people or knocking over cameras.
the Change Shape ability present on some Adults and Ancients (i.e. Adult Bronze Dragon)
.. a dragon is absolutely capable of eating powerful rounds from assault rifles.
Nonsense. Absolutely not.
We are not doing this real-life fight according to D&D rules. No. Way. Dragons can be defeated by swords. For that reason we know, without doubt, that they are not armored on the order of a tank. They are, at best, on the order of maybe a flak vest. With inserts, I guess I should add.
So we take the kinetic energy of a sword. We compare that to the kinetic energy of a bullet fired from an assault rifle.
We take the frequency of sword strikes in 6 seconds. We compate that to the frequency of bullet impacts in 6 seconds.
It is thus revealed that an assault rifle - one ... assault rifle - will do absolutely deadly damage to a dragon in the space of a few seconds. A group of riflemen will without question kill a dragon in a single round. Any dragon. No contest.
This I'm simply not willing to discuss.You can disagree - absolutely, welcome to do so - but then, to me, we're talking counter-factually, and I'm not doing that.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
What about gaseous cloud? A dragon who knew how to cast that would have a very easy time of sneaking into any place. Also, have we not accounted for aa diversion? If a few dragons caused a big enough distraction then a few other could stone shape/gaseous cloud into the bunker and quite literally incinerate anyone in their way. Plus, white dragons and black dragons would be very useful in sealing of entryways with their breath weapons. Lastly, if their was such thing as a kamikaze dragon then nowhere would be safe.
I've said repeatedly: The dragon can maybe get in. It will be by teleporting. All the other ways in are way, way less sure. So just teleport.
What diversion? My whole point is that the dragon get's one shot at taking out the hypothetical leader of the free world. If it wins initiative, it succeeds, then dies. If not, it just dies.
Breath weapon sounds mega impressive until you realise it get's maybe 4 guys if you're lucky - and then, again, the dragon dies.
Nowhere is ever truly safe. But kamikaze dragons seem a contradiction in terms, no? How they get so old, then? Very patient kamikaze dragons?
I also would like to add that Dragon scales are likely stronger than crocodile scute. If they are than assult riffles wouldn't do much to a dragon unless they target the eyes. Even so, might I remind you how dangerous even blind dragons can be. Think of Sol Regan from Dragon Prince.
That's ..... that's just not true at all. Even ceramic plate doesn't really stop bullets - not at point blank range, not fired at full auto, and not from serious rifles. They don't have to be 5,56mm, they could easily be 7,62. Hell, if experience showed that 7,62 has trouble, no reason they can't all have 12mm Browning M2's. Which makes swiss cheese out of a M113 armored personel carrier.
Just .. let me know if you further want to upgrade this armor. There is no chance in the world what to ever that the dragon lives once a fight is on. We'll just pick a weapon that works. Although if it withstands the M2, we're already stretching it way beyond the limits of believability.
A dragon's scales are 20cm thick on average (Thank you mythlopedic knowledge!). Therefore, a bullet fired from anything less than a mounted gun would not be able to penetrate a 20cm, harder than steel, magically enhanced, substance. Also the dragon only turns kamikaze because it needs to. Additionally, no one ever said that the dragons only had one shot to kill the leader. Also, if a dragon could even survive one round they could easily kill said leader.
.. a dragon is absolutely capable of eating powerful rounds from assault rifles.
Nonsense. Absolutely not.
We are not doing this real-life fight according to D&D rules. No. Way. Dragons can be defeated by swords. For that reason we know, without doubt, that they are not armored on the order of a tank. They are, at best, on the order of maybe a flak vest. With inserts, I guess I should add.
So we take the kinetic energy of a sword. We compare that to the kinetic energy of a bullet fired from an assault rifle.
We take the frequency of sword strikes in 6 seconds. We compate that to the frequency of bullet impacts in 6 seconds.
It is thus revealed that an assault rifle - one ... assault rifle - will do absolutely deadly damage to a dragon in the space of a few seconds. A group of riflemen will without question kill a dragon in a single round. Any dragon. No contest.
This I'm simply not willing to discuss.You can disagree - absolutely, welcome to do so - but then, to me, we're talking counter-factually, and I'm not doing tha
What about gaseous cloud? A dragon who knew how to cast that would have a very easy time of sneaking into any place. Also, have we not accounted for aa diversion? If a few dragons caused a big enough distraction then a few other could stone shape/gaseous cloud into the bunker and quite literally incinerate anyone in their way. Plus, white dragons and black dragons would be very useful in sealing of entryways with their breath weapons. Lastly, if their was such thing as a kamikaze dragon then nowhere would be safe.
I've said repeatedly: The dragon can maybe get in. It will be by teleporting. All the other ways in are way, way less sure. So just teleport.
What diversion? My whole point is that the dragon get's one shot at taking out the hypothetical leader of the free world. If it wins initiative, it succeeds, then dies. If not, it just dies.
Breath weapon sounds mega impressive until you realise it get's maybe 4 guys if you're lucky - and then, again, the dragon dies.
Nowhere is ever truly safe. But kamikaze dragons seem a contradiction in terms, no? How they get so old, then? Very patient kamikaze dragons?
I also would like to add that Dragon scales are likely stronger than crocodile scute. If they are than assult riffles wouldn't do much to a dragon unless they target the eyes. Even so, might I remind you how dangerous even blind dragons can be. Think of Sol Regan from Dragon Prince.
That's ..... that's just not true at all. Even ceramic plate doesn't really stop bullets - not at point blank range, not fired at full auto, and not from serious rifles. They don't have to be 5,56mm, they could easily be 7,62. Hell, if experience showed that 7,62 has trouble, no reason they can't all have 12mm Browning M2's. Which makes swiss cheese out of a M113 armored personel carrier.
Just .. let me know if you further want to upgrade this armor. There is no chance in the world what to ever that the dragon lives once a fight is on. We'll just pick a weapon that works. Although if it withstands the M2, we're already stretching it way beyond the limits of believability.
A dragon's scales are 20cm thick on average (Thank you mythlopedic knowledge!). Therefore, a bullet fired from anything less than a mounted gun would not be able to penetrate a 20cm, harder than steel, magically enhanced, substance. Also the dragon only turns kamikaze because it needs to. Additionally, no one ever said that the dragons only had one shot to kill the leader. Also, if a dragon could even survive one round they could easily kill said leader.
What about gaseous cloud? A dragon who knew how to cast that would have a very easy time of sneaking into any place. Also, have we not accounted for aa diversion? If a few dragons caused a big enough distraction then a few other could stone shape/gaseous cloud into the bunker and quite literally incinerate anyone in their way. Plus, white dragons and black dragons would be very useful in sealing of entryways with their breath weapons. Lastly, if their was such thing as a kamikaze dragon then nowhere would be safe.
I've said repeatedly: The dragon can maybe get in. It will be by teleporting. All the other ways in are way, way less sure. So just teleport.
What diversion? My whole point is that the dragon get's one shot at taking out the hypothetical leader of the free world. If it wins initiative, it succeeds, then dies. If not, it just dies.
Breath weapon sounds mega impressive until you realise it get's maybe 4 guys if you're lucky - and then, again, the dragon dies.
Nowhere is ever truly safe. But kamikaze dragons seem a contradiction in terms, no? How they get so old, then? Very patient kamikaze dragons?
I also would like to add that Dragon scales are likely stronger than crocodile scute. If they are than assult riffles wouldn't do much to a dragon unless they target the eyes. Even so, might I remind you how dangerous even blind dragons can be. Think of Sol Regan from Dragon Prince.
That's ..... that's just not true at all. Even ceramic plate doesn't really stop bullets - not at point blank range, not fired at full auto, and not from serious rifles. They don't have to be 5,56mm, they could easily be 7,62. Hell, if experience showed that 7,62 has trouble, no reason they can't all have 12mm Browning M2's. Which makes swiss cheese out of a M113 armored personel carrier.
Just .. let me know if you further want to upgrade this armor. There is no chance in the world what to ever that the dragon lives once a fight is on. We'll just pick a weapon that works. Although if it withstands the M2, we're already stretching it way beyond the limits of believability.
A dragon's scales are 20cm thick on average (Thank you mythlopedic knowledge!). Therefore, a bullet fired from anything less than a mounted gun would not be able to penetrate a 20cm, harder than steel, magically enhanced, substance. Also the dragon only turns kamikaze because it needs to. Additionally, no one ever said that the dragons only had one shot to kill the leader. Also, if a dragon could even survive one round they could easily kill said leader.
But why, if humanity is aware that these dragons just so happen to be resistant to bullets, would they not be bringing out other weapons? In this hypothetical leader of the world scenario, I’m assuming people would be intelligent enough to not stream their plans to the world because dragons could intercept it. And even if a dragon is immune to anything lower than a machine gun - which still seems peculiar as in D&D bows and swords are somehow able to pierce through its scales - a missile probably would.
But why, if humanity is aware that these dragons just so happen to be resistant to bullets, would they not be bringing out other weapons? In this hypothetical leader of the world scenario, I’m assuming people would be intelligent enough to not stream their plans to the world because dragons could intercept it. And even if a dragon is immune to anything lower than a machine gun - which still seems peculiar as in D&D bows and swords are somehow able to pierce through its scales - a missile probably would.
A pebble could completely obliterate a fighter jet in the right scenario, yet I don’t see people talk about how weak they are, also said bows and swords are also wielded by people who are fighting archangels, being submerged in lava and having apartment sized meteors thrown at them, it’s less of the weapon being able to kill the dragon in a few blows but the people behind the weapon being literally Herculean in strength.
A level 20 rogue could instantly kill a knight in full plate with a toothpick, guaranteed, no chance of failure at all. Not to mention whatever the hell wizards do for an afternoon adventure. But missiles would be a credible threat, you got that down right. The only problem is that Europe isn’t exactly well versed in ballistic missile creation, meaning that cruise missiles are likely their preferred weapon against dragons. It takes around 1 minute for a missile launch to be activated and shot out of their silo, but it can take anywhere from minutes to nearly an hour for it to reach its destination. Which leaves a large amount of time for a dragon to leave the site before the missile hits, depending on where the dragon attacks, sending missiles towards populated areas or military sites can be extremely risky as they are potentially bombing their own troops.
Worse of all, it’s not granted that a missile could instantly kill a dragon, maim it badly, for sure, but killing it is rather dependent on the exact scenario, the best way for a military site to prevent a dragon from attacking it is to have constant surveillance of drones that are armed with explosives and sentries mounted with anti tank rounds that are spread out in order to prevent them from being destroyed in a single shot. This means that Europe as a whole would have to go on the defensive in order to protect their most important sites.
It's really not in your best interest to bring levels into this. Because if so, there's no reason all these soldiers can't have levels too.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
It's really not in your best interest to bring levels into this. Because if so, there's no reason all these soldiers can't have levels too.
Most people would agree that levels or CR are a rough measure for a monster or being’s capabilities when not considering outside factors like weapons, I would assume most soldiers would use the guard statblock or even that of a scout if they were considered the best of the best with a rifle. CR 5 being the upper limit before you go beyond a regular human, with the ceiling possibly being even lower for modern day humans considering we use explosives, drones and tanks. Even in times where we use the weapon ourselves, it is often with a crew where the goal isn’t to beat the enemy to death, but to detect them and shred them before they can do the same to you, which allows very little room between death and survival compared to what a sword or arrow wound would give.
I am not talking about how dragons can become level 20 rogues, that’s not what I’m saying nor does the 2024 system use it anymore, with non players purely using NPC abilities instead. I’m saying that dragons are often killed by supernatural beings on par or above them as a team, where it just so happens that a sword or arrow is used as an implement.
It's really not in your best interest to bring levels into this. Because if so, there's no reason all these soldiers can't have levels too.
Most people would agree that levels or CR are a rough measure for a monster or being’s capabilities when not considering outside factors like weapons, I would assume most soldiers would use the guard statblock or even that of a scout if they were considered the best of the best with a rifle. CR 5 being the upper limit before you go beyond a regular human, with the ceiling possibly being even lower for modern day humans considering we use explosives, drones and tanks. Even in times where we use the weapon ourselves, it is often with a crew where the goal isn’t to beat the enemy to death, but to detect them and eliminate them before they can do the same to you.
I am not talking about how dragons can become level 20 rogues, that’s not what I’m saying nor does the 2024 system use it anymore, with non players purely using NPC abilities instead. I’m saying that dragons are often killed by supernatural beings on par or above them as a team, where it just so happens that a sword or arrow is used as an implement.
All those assumptions are just that: Assumptions. They don't mean anything.
If Faerun has 100 million people, there are some broad statistical projections we can make: How many of those reach high levels, what level of strife produces those individuals, and so on.
Then, we can extrapolate: How many people in Europe? Far, far more. How much strife, comparably? Far more. So how many high level fighters will these dragons now have to contend with? Way too many. Who could kill dragons with swords, so there's quite simply no accounting for what they can do with modern weaponry.
I think this is not an avenue that should look attractive to you. I think ignoring levels and hitdice and so on makes more sense, and skews the picture very much less in favor of the humans. If, on top of slightly less than 3 million armed and trained military, paramilitary and police force, there are also hundreds of thousands of high level super heroes - we no longer need fighter jets or anti-tank missiles. We can fight them in melee and win.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
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It’s accurate down to the feet depending on how well searched the location has been, nothing says they can’t use Greater Invisibility and teleport there to look around for a quick second or just scry there to get details.
Its not like the dragon's location would be found out if they just keep dumping giant rocks over military sites with teleportation.
I mean the secret service would probably at least be a bit spooked if they started hearing voices disconnected from any visuals, but the dragon would probably still be fairly cushy while invisble.
1. The dragon could still be fairly fine even if they set off alarms due to the nature of invisibility; they’d just have to slip to a spot out of sight from physically present guards every minute
2. I’d assume that magical invisibility has some way to counter IR vision and similar.
1. But how is it getting around? There are theckpoints, locked doors, surveillance (literally everywhere - this is the hypothetical leader of the free world secure command bunker, not the local pharmacy). Once a breach is detected, there will be guys physically blocking all doorways. Because, as I already said, this is the second hypothetical leader of the true world. Former vice potential leader of the free world, promoted to actual potential leader of the free world after the first dragon assassination worked. We know we're facing a supernatural threat, everyone is competent and knows what they're doing.
2. I mean even if we ignore the rest - like why would invisibility (no matter how magical) works against something the caster doesn't even know exists? But how does the dragon move forward? There are layers upon layers of security. And who says IR is the worst it has to sorry about. Pressure sensors in the floors, audio sensors. How does the invisible dragon handle something as mundane as an automatic door? Does it turn visible, to get through?
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
1. We forgot that shapechange could turn you into an ant or a dust mite, you could just do that and get around easily, no one would notice nor care about an ant crawling around. Sure they know the dragon could be anywhere, anyone and everyone, but you cannot be paranoid enough to think an actual dust mite might be a dragon. Also why not just kill everyone in the room along with the president? What’s stopping them from tearing apart the bark of the tree instead of the tip so to say? You can’t really assume ALL of Europe would be competent, there’s gotta be a moron or two with a couple screws loose at least, nothings really stopping them from murdering every official on the continent via Scrying, Teleport and Shapechange until they just run out of competent people with ideas that overlap more than kill dragons. Sure everyone agrees dragons are a threat, but how do you even what to deal with em?
Increase conscription and try to tune anything to detect a dragon, well some people aren’t going to be happy with that, false alarms can happen and incorrect reports could appear if they assume animals acting strange are dragons. Lure them to a kill zone would prove to be ineffective after the first few times. Investigate everyone and risk watching as they destroy an entire towns worth of people to take everything down with them?
People are gonna become paranoid, it’s like the Red Scare back in America, who knows, if your neighbour says genocide of an intelligent species without attempts at parley may not be a pacifist, but a cunning dragon attempting to destabilise your government!
2. I don't think we need to argue about if it works against heat vision, that opens up enough cans of worms as is. Also doesn’t stealth also imply being quiet as well, I don’t see how that would not work unless the audio sensors were jacked up like mad. Pressure sensors make sense though.
1. I didn't forget anything. Yes, a sufficiently determined dragon can find a way to be in the room. Shape change is just silly. If you want to suicide-dragon-bomb the hypothetical leader of the free world, you teleport in and accept you're not getting back out. Everything else is just fun and games.
We can and should assume that ALL Europeans are competent enough. Your rank and file infantry man requires a relatively relaxed level of competence, whereas the elite guards surrounding the hypothetical leader of the free world requires rather a lot more competence - but still no more than can be found. Really, for that job you require more but still moderate competence, combined with a sort of testosterone-fuelled irrationality, tempered most likely by repetitive training (I don't educate bodyguards, I don't really know - but I do know they really need to accept the posibility of dying on the job).
Kill zones aren't the weapon of choice to kill off the dragons. They're just there to prove a point: You can't mess with our command structure, we kill you handily when you try. No, weapons are the weapon of choice to kill off the dragons. To be precise: Precision, long range, super sonic weapons. I like to talk about fighter jets, but frankly, most will propably be launched from loitering drones.
2. Really, the invisibility discussion is a side track. I don't deny dragons can find a way in - that way is almost certainly teleport - my point is that they die for it. Frankly, I think the whole contention can be boiled down to one point: A dragon doesn't last even a single round in a room full of people with assault rifles. I think this is true. Some think this is false.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
What about gaseous cloud? A dragon who knew how to cast that would have a very easy time of sneaking into any place. Also, have we not accounted for aa diversion? If a few dragons caused a big enough distraction then a few other could stone shape/gaseous cloud into the bunker and quite literally incinerate anyone in their way. Plus, white dragons and black dragons would be very useful in sealing of entryways with their breath weapons. Lastly, if their was such thing as a kamikaze dragon then nowhere would be safe.
- Igglywiv the Wizard
I played every class, now playing every sub-class.
You would not believe how much ADHD helps with creating campaigns!
Happy Pride Month!
I also would like to add that Dragon scales are likely stronger than crocodile scute. If they are than assult riffles wouldn't do much to a dragon unless they target the eyes. Even so, might I remind you how dangerous even blind dragons can be. Think of Sol Regan from Dragon Prince.
- Igglywiv the Wizard
I played every class, now playing every sub-class.
You would not believe how much ADHD helps with creating campaigns!
Happy Pride Month!
I've said repeatedly: The dragon can maybe get in. It will be by teleporting. All the other ways in are way, way less sure. So just teleport.
What diversion? My whole point is that the dragon get's one shot at taking out the hypothetical leader of the free world. If it wins initiative, it succeeds, then dies. If not, it just dies.
Breath weapon sounds mega impressive until you realise it get's maybe 4 guys if you're lucky - and then, again, the dragon dies.
Nowhere is ever truly safe. But kamikaze dragons seem a contradiction in terms, no? How they get so old, then? Very patient kamikaze dragons?
That's ..... that's just not true at all. Even ceramic plate doesn't really stop bullets - not at point blank range, not fired at full auto, and not from serious rifles. They don't have to be 5,56mm, they could easily be 7,62. Hell, if experience showed that 7,62 has trouble, no reason they can't all have 12mm Browning M2's. Which makes swiss cheese out of a M113 armored personel carrier.
Just .. let me know if you further want to upgrade this armor. There is no chance in the world what to ever that the dragon lives once a fight is on. We'll just pick a weapon that works. Although if it withstands the M2, we're already stretching it way beyond the limits of believability.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
An adult dragon is the size of a horse, an ancient one is the size of a elephant. How are they moving around in a TV studio or press conference without bumping into people or knocking over cameras.
A dragon's scales are 20cm thick on average (Thank you mythlopedic knowledge!). Therefore, a bullet fired from anything less than a mounted gun would not be able to penetrate a 20cm, harder than steel, magically enhanced, substance. Also the dragon only turns kamikaze because it needs to. Additionally, no one ever said that the dragons only had one shot to kill the leader. Also, if a dragon could even survive one round they could easily kill said leader.
- Igglywiv the Wizard
I played every class, now playing every sub-class.
You would not believe how much ADHD helps with creating campaigns!
Happy Pride Month!
Even if you dismiss this knowledge, a dragon is absolutely capable of eating powerful rounds from assault rifles.
A Demon Grinder has an AC of 19, when it’s a 10-crew gargantuan machine designed to obliterate any demon to rams into. The Demon Grinder is as heavy as a semi-truck with light cargo, which is pretty indicative that it’s the closest equivalent to a modern day tank.
The thing is, an adult red dragon makes a Demon Grinder look like an actual toy, with significantly higher health. This means that at the very least, an adult red dragon is above even the strongest hell machine in terms of durability, higher than what is only the natural progression of Mad Max. So not only would a dragon's scale be on par with actual war machines, but its health also means that it is somehow able to survive injuries that a Demon Grinder cannot, which ranges from ramming into an army of huge sized demons who’s very strikes cut through mortal metal like butter and a barrage cannon shots directly to the core of the system.
If you say that a hell machine is in no way equal to a modern tank, those with canian armour would like to disagree. With a base AC of 22 + Dexterity, that means that even their hell bikes are on pare with the armour capacity of an actual tank, which an ancient dragon could easily reach. So at the very least, the dragon could realistically survive an entire battalion firing upon it like I calculated, or it could just ignore any that aren’t designed to destroy a tank if it’s ancient.
Imagine the live action transformers scene with Blackout appearing in the military base, only the dragon would be much faster to act. That’s what’s going to happen with an ancient dragon’s vast array of spells to help to enter without anyone knowing. They won’t even have time to fire any shots before the dragon has already wipes half of their men from existence.
An ancient dragon is smarter than anyone in the military, stronger than any tank, can fly, cast spells and has thousands of years of combat prowess under its name, after its initial confusion with the modern day world, it will be more lethal and accurate than any bombardment ever could.
Thank you!🤦♀️Nobody else gets it.
- Igglywiv the Wizard
I played every class, now playing every sub-class.
You would not believe how much ADHD helps with creating campaigns!
Happy Pride Month!
the Change Shape ability present on some Adults and Ancients (i.e. Adult Bronze Dragon)
Nonsense. Absolutely not.
We are not doing this real-life fight according to D&D rules. No. Way. Dragons can be defeated by swords. For that reason we know, without doubt, that they are not armored on the order of a tank. They are, at best, on the order of maybe a flak vest. With inserts, I guess I should add.
So we take the kinetic energy of a sword. We compare that to the kinetic energy of a bullet fired from an assault rifle.
We take the frequency of sword strikes in 6 seconds. We compate that to the frequency of bullet impacts in 6 seconds.
It is thus revealed that an assault rifle - one ... assault rifle - will do absolutely deadly damage to a dragon in the space of a few seconds. A group of riflemen will without question kill a dragon in a single round. Any dragon. No contest.
This I'm simply not willing to discuss.You can disagree - absolutely, welcome to do so - but then, to me, we're talking counter-factually, and I'm not doing that.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
But why, if humanity is aware that these dragons just so happen to be resistant to bullets, would they not be bringing out other weapons? In this hypothetical leader of the world scenario, I’m assuming people would be intelligent enough to not stream their plans to the world because dragons could intercept it. And even if a dragon is immune to anything lower than a machine gun - which still seems peculiar as in D&D bows and swords are somehow able to pierce through its scales - a missile probably would.
A pebble could completely obliterate a fighter jet in the right scenario, yet I don’t see people talk about how weak they are, also said bows and swords are also wielded by people who are fighting archangels, being submerged in lava and having apartment sized meteors thrown at them, it’s less of the weapon being able to kill the dragon in a few blows but the people behind the weapon being literally Herculean in strength.
A level 20 rogue could instantly kill a knight in full plate with a toothpick, guaranteed, no chance of failure at all. Not to mention whatever the hell wizards do for an afternoon adventure. But missiles would be a credible threat, you got that down right. The only problem is that Europe isn’t exactly well versed in ballistic missile creation, meaning that cruise missiles are likely their preferred weapon against dragons. It takes around 1 minute for a missile launch to be activated and shot out of their silo, but it can take anywhere from minutes to nearly an hour for it to reach its destination. Which leaves a large amount of time for a dragon to leave the site before the missile hits, depending on where the dragon attacks, sending missiles towards populated areas or military sites can be extremely risky as they are potentially bombing their own troops.
Worse of all, it’s not granted that a missile could instantly kill a dragon, maim it badly, for sure, but killing it is rather dependent on the exact scenario, the best way for a military site to prevent a dragon from attacking it is to have constant surveillance of drones that are armed with explosives and sentries mounted with anti tank rounds that are spread out in order to prevent them from being destroyed in a single shot. This means that Europe as a whole would have to go on the defensive in order to protect their most important sites.
It's really not in your best interest to bring levels into this. Because if so, there's no reason all these soldiers can't have levels too.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Most people would agree that levels or CR are a rough measure for a monster or being’s capabilities when not considering outside factors like weapons, I would assume most soldiers would use the guard statblock or even that of a scout if they were considered the best of the best with a rifle. CR 5 being the upper limit before you go beyond a regular human, with the ceiling possibly being even lower for modern day humans considering we use explosives, drones and tanks. Even in times where we use the weapon ourselves, it is often with a crew where the goal isn’t to beat the enemy to death, but to detect them and shred them before they can do the same to you, which allows very little room between death and survival compared to what a sword or arrow wound would give.
I am not talking about how dragons can become level 20 rogues, that’s not what I’m saying nor does the 2024 system use it anymore, with non players purely using NPC abilities instead. I’m saying that dragons are often killed by supernatural beings on par or above them as a team, where it just so happens that a sword or arrow is used as an implement.
All those assumptions are just that: Assumptions. They don't mean anything.
If Faerun has 100 million people, there are some broad statistical projections we can make: How many of those reach high levels, what level of strife produces those individuals, and so on.
Then, we can extrapolate: How many people in Europe? Far, far more. How much strife, comparably? Far more. So how many high level fighters will these dragons now have to contend with? Way too many. Who could kill dragons with swords, so there's quite simply no accounting for what they can do with modern weaponry.
I think this is not an avenue that should look attractive to you. I think ignoring levels and hitdice and so on makes more sense, and skews the picture very much less in favor of the humans. If, on top of slightly less than 3 million armed and trained military, paramilitary and police force, there are also hundreds of thousands of high level super heroes - we no longer need fighter jets or anti-tank missiles. We can fight them in melee and win.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.