If a long distance shot is so hard under normal conditions that disadvantage is applied to it, I don't see how the long shot becomes easier just because the target can't see you.
If a long distance shot is so hard under normal conditions that disadvantage is applied to it, I don't see how the long shot becomes easier just because the target can't see you.
Because the Disadvantage incurred by long range assumes the target is aware of the attack and actively avoiding it. If it's not, then it's certainly easier to hit.
If a long distance shot is so hard under normal conditions that disadvantage is applied to it, I don't see how the long shot becomes easier just because the target can't see you.
Because the Disadvantage incurred by long range assumes the target is aware of the attack and actively avoiding it. If it's not, then it's certainly easier to hit.
DM: The bad guys cast Darkness on the party. You forget that they are there and they shoot you full of arrows with no penalty.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Are you making a (very reasonable) assumption about why long range shots are at disadvantage or is this something described in the rules? Because I would think that trying to shoot a tree trunk at long range would have disadvantage even though it's rooted in place. Or perhaps you are describing the target using the dodge action, which would also be negated if the target can't see the attacker. Heck, a frightened, poisoned, exhausted archer could be 600' away firing a longbow at a heavily obscured target lying prone on the ground within magical darkness. Very hard to hit. Disadvantage several times over. Unless the target also cannot see the attacker, in which case, the archer takes a straight attack roll so long as he picks the right square to attack.
Yeah, I'm being silly here. But this highlights a problem with a condition like blindness affecting someone else rather than just affecting the person with the condition. I'll admit it's a tough nut to crack and I don't really have a better solution to apply across the board. That's why I deal with darkness and fog and other heavily obscured situations by using the house rule that the blinded condition makes attacks against you have advantage if the attacker can see you.
I was making a deduction based on the rules, or concocting an explanation that was in tune with the rules. Simply put, Disadvantage and Advantage cancel out, regardless of how many instances of each. I understand your point, though: it's not terribly realistic that a whole slew of disadvantageous conditions (long range, being blind, your target being prone, you being exhausted AND poisoned) are canceled out by a single advantageous condition (your target can't see you). Them's the rules, tho. =) I wouldn't mind a DM houseruling that either Disadvantage or Advantage "wins" if there are 2 of one for each of the other, tho.
I've got a Tiefling, who gets Darkness as a racial ability. So, I took Devil's Sight. I'll have to be careful about using Darkness strategically, though...
You have advantage to hit opponents who can’t see you and have disadvantage to hit opponents you can’t see. Advantage and Disadvantage cancel out so you attack normally. If you are already at disadvantage or your opponent has advantage on you, you are better off in the darkness since two advantages are still cancel by one disadvantage and vice versa.
I acknowledge this is RAW, but it is extremely problematic to me. You end up with ridiculous situations where archers can fire at long range into obscured areas without disadvantage because of advantage/disadvantage cancellations. My house rule is disadvantage across the board.
I'm guessing the reason it is done this way is to not bog down combat. In real life (yes, I know :-), two people in darkness are going to flail around and take twice as long to finish a fight but at a game table that's just boring. Archers firing into the darkness are going to by lucky to hit targets, but at the game table that means lots of "roll d20, miss, roll d20, miss, roll d20, miss..."
Archers firing into the darkness are going to by lucky to hit targets, but at the game table that means lots of "roll d20, miss, roll d20, miss, roll d20, miss..."
Which would make sense! If my players gave me crap about it, I'd tell them to step outside. I'd blindfold them and see how well they do on the range.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Archers firing into the darkness are going to by lucky to hit targets, but at the game table that means lots of "roll d20, miss, roll d20, miss, roll d20, miss..."
Which would make sense! If my players gave me crap about it, I'd tell them to step outside. I'd blindfold them and see how well they do on the range.
You don’t need to blindfold them. Take them outside at night with no streetlights and walk away from them. It’s surprising how quickly you disappear into the darkness.
The Drow Warlock in one of my parties has used Darkness to create a bubble of "don't come near me" while he blaster casts his souped up Eldritch Blasts.
I've seen Warlocks use it to create mobile cover to stealth at night. It's already Dark so no-one is expecting to see well anyways.
I've used it to block LOS. Give the party some time to heal, etc... while the enemies can't really target us well. This is useful if you've got a big map and you can run in front of the archers and create a black bubble for the party to come up behind.
I'm guessing the reason it is done this way is to not bog down combat. In real life (yes, I know :-), two people in darkness are going to flail around and take twice as long to finish a fight but at a game table that's just boring. Archers firing into the darkness are going to by lucky to hit targets, but at the game table that means lots of "roll d20, miss, roll d20, miss, roll d20, miss..."
And that's why I use the house rule that two people who cannot see each other both simply have disadvantage, rather than following RAW which says if you can't see me, you have disadvantage, but if I can't see you, you have advantage.
I great darkness (magical or otherwise) and heavy obscurement as I do in real life. So having expectations of accuracy bard on real life follow and the rules have a good result for this.
Basically my players enter a cave and I say, "It's dark. You can see well enough to walk, but you strain to make out the walls of the cave, and you get the shape of a bridge ahead." Any checks relying on sight fail. I still tell them to roll perception. They may hear the goblin waiting on the bridge...
When fighting in fog, darkness, etc. I imagine it like the battle in the smoke in Gangs of New York. You can't see... Well you can see well enough to film the scene. But when the bad hides he doesnt provoke opportunity, and if Leo just stands there making a Search he'll automatically fail to see whats-his-face running by slashing at his legs.
If you give everyone disadvantage to attack, then no one gets hit, and the battle stretches and the slowdown takes away from the story and the fun.
Next time you bring a friend to carry your torch. Or take off your shield =P .
Chars int is low....
had to play to the char. He kept trying to use (no spoilers) whatever he came about that seemed like if you impaled a torch into it, you could then drag it as a sconce. But it didn't work after about 6 different attempts of missing and just bashing things in with a torch. It was very messy. the wizard finally took pity and used mage hand, felt bad for who we were against.
Yikes. My position is, if your in melee and suddenly darkness! Ooooo its scary and you and your opponent cant see each other. You could attempt to listen out for another (probably as an action as its going to pump that fight or flight response up if the combat pauses. If you both continue to swing away relying on the others noise to guide you, you would both have disadvantage, the fight is going to last longer, not the same time. There are no blindfighting knife fighting or blind ninja monk feats or abilities anymore except ones involving 'see in magic darkness' I cant think of the last time a player has said to me, I would like to practice blindfolded fighting to better my underdark fighting skills. It was definitely 2nd, not sure about third. As to ranged attacks - if you cant see someone you are blind yes, but you also are now guessing where they are and here I would remind myself that though the game works in rounds and turns and may have a battlegrid the character doesnt. So unless they can give me a reason they can guesstimate where the target is (noise either from them or an ally near them screaming their position as they hack them) they miss. If they fire into melee? randomise who they make the attack roll on out of the nearest two targets.
And do not be afraid to randomise how your darkness mechanics go round by round / situation by situation. Fighting blind is a chaotic stressful nightmare and introducing that to those experiencing it is just good atmosphere!
I also, with Melee fighters, like to "Ready a Grapple as an action, to Grapple the first thing that bumps into me/touches me/attacks me" When in complete darkness/fog/blinded. If its something I am not supposed to be attacking... then they have their voice to tell me, as I have them grappled, for easier fighting.
Thats how my party took down a White Wyrmling that was trying to TPK us in its magic fog.
Sure it does. It prevents your opponent from standing after you knock them prone. It also allows you to carry them outside of the fog/darkness. But it won't help you defeat an opponent if you stay with them in the fog/dark
We're just going to have to disagree on that one.
If a long distance shot is so hard under normal conditions that disadvantage is applied to it, I don't see how the long shot becomes easier just because the target can't see you.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Because the Disadvantage incurred by long range assumes the target is aware of the attack and actively avoiding it. If it's not, then it's certainly easier to hit.
DM: The bad guys cast Darkness on the party. You forget that they are there and they shoot you full of arrows with no penalty.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Are you making a (very reasonable) assumption about why long range shots are at disadvantage or is this something described in the rules? Because I would think that trying to shoot a tree trunk at long range would have disadvantage even though it's rooted in place. Or perhaps you are describing the target using the dodge action, which would also be negated if the target can't see the attacker. Heck, a frightened, poisoned, exhausted archer could be 600' away firing a longbow at a heavily obscured target lying prone on the ground within magical darkness. Very hard to hit. Disadvantage several times over. Unless the target also cannot see the attacker, in which case, the archer takes a straight attack roll so long as he picks the right square to attack.
Yeah, I'm being silly here. But this highlights a problem with a condition like blindness affecting someone else rather than just affecting the person with the condition. I'll admit it's a tough nut to crack and I don't really have a better solution to apply across the board. That's why I deal with darkness and fog and other heavily obscured situations by using the house rule that the blinded condition makes attacks against you have advantage if the attacker can see you.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I was making a deduction based on the rules, or concocting an explanation that was in tune with the rules. Simply put, Disadvantage and Advantage cancel out, regardless of how many instances of each. I understand your point, though: it's not terribly realistic that a whole slew of disadvantageous conditions (long range, being blind, your target being prone, you being exhausted AND poisoned) are canceled out by a single advantageous condition (your target can't see you). Them's the rules, tho. =) I wouldn't mind a DM houseruling that either Disadvantage or Advantage "wins" if there are 2 of one for each of the other, tho.
I've got a Tiefling, who gets Darkness as a racial ability. So, I took Devil's Sight. I'll have to be careful about using Darkness strategically, though...
I'm guessing the reason it is done this way is to not bog down combat. In real life (yes, I know :-), two people in darkness are going to flail around and take twice as long to finish a fight but at a game table that's just boring. Archers firing into the darkness are going to by lucky to hit targets, but at the game table that means lots of "roll d20, miss, roll d20, miss, roll d20, miss..."
Which would make sense! If my players gave me crap about it, I'd tell them to step outside. I'd blindfold them and see how well they do on the range.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
You don’t need to blindfold them. Take them outside at night with no streetlights and walk away from them. It’s surprising how quickly you disappear into the darkness.
Professional computer geek
The Drow Warlock in one of my parties has used Darkness to create a bubble of "don't come near me" while he blaster casts his souped up Eldritch Blasts.
I've seen Warlocks use it to create mobile cover to stealth at night. It's already Dark so no-one is expecting to see well anyways.
I've used it to block LOS. Give the party some time to heal, etc... while the enemies can't really target us well. This is useful if you've got a big map and you can run in front of the archers and create a black bubble for the party to come up behind.
And that's why I use the house rule that two people who cannot see each other both simply have disadvantage, rather than following RAW which says if you can't see me, you have disadvantage, but if I can't see you, you have advantage.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I great darkness (magical or otherwise) and heavy obscurement as I do in real life. So having expectations of accuracy bard on real life follow and the rules have a good result for this.
Basically my players enter a cave and I say, "It's dark. You can see well enough to walk, but you strain to make out the walls of the cave, and you get the shape of a bridge ahead." Any checks relying on sight fail. I still tell them to roll perception. They may hear the goblin waiting on the bridge...
When fighting in fog, darkness, etc. I imagine it like the battle in the smoke in Gangs of New York. You can't see... Well you can see well enough to film the scene. But when the bad hides he doesnt provoke opportunity, and if Leo just stands there making a Search he'll automatically fail to see whats-his-face running by slashing at his legs.
If you give everyone disadvantage to attack, then no one gets hit, and the battle stretches and the slowdown takes away from the story and the fun.
Extended Signature
Or, ideally, people do other things more advantageous to them than swinging at each other over and over with disadvantage.
But that's up to the players.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I've had to have my Conquest paladin, go through 75% of Cragmaw keep, with a Torch as his weapon, due to the light situation.
Blank
Next time you bring a friend to carry your torch. Or take off your shield =P .
Extended Signature
Chars int is low....
had to play to the char.
He kept trying to use (no spoilers) whatever he came about that seemed like if you impaled a torch into it, you could then drag it as a sconce. But it didn't work after about 6 different attempts of missing and just bashing things in with a torch. It was very messy. the wizard finally took pity and used mage hand, felt bad for who we were against.
Blank
Yikes. My position is, if your in melee and suddenly darkness! Ooooo its scary and you and your opponent cant see each other. You could attempt to listen out for another (probably as an action as its going to pump that fight or flight response up if the combat pauses. If you both continue to swing away relying on the others noise to guide you, you would both have disadvantage, the fight is going to last longer, not the same time. There are no blindfighting knife fighting or blind ninja monk feats or abilities anymore except ones involving 'see in magic darkness' I cant think of the last time a player has said to me, I would like to practice blindfolded fighting to better my underdark fighting skills. It was definitely 2nd, not sure about third. As to ranged attacks - if you cant see someone you are blind yes, but you also are now guessing where they are and here I would remind myself that though the game works in rounds and turns and may have a battlegrid the character doesnt. So unless they can give me a reason they can guesstimate where the target is (noise either from them or an ally near them screaming their position as they hack them) they miss. If they fire into melee? randomise who they make the attack roll on out of the nearest two targets.
And do not be afraid to randomise how your darkness mechanics go round by round / situation by situation. Fighting blind is a chaotic stressful nightmare and introducing that to those experiencing it is just good atmosphere!
I also, with Melee fighters, like to "Ready a Grapple as an action, to Grapple the first thing that bumps into me/touches me/attacks me" When in complete darkness/fog/blinded. If its something I am not supposed to be attacking... then they have their voice to tell me, as I have them grappled, for easier fighting.
Thats how my party took down a White Wyrmling that was trying to TPK us in its magic fog.
Blank
Counterintuitively, the grappled condition doesn't have any effect whatsoever on combat.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Sure it does. It prevents your opponent from standing after you knock them prone. It also allows you to carry them outside of the fog/darkness. But it won't help you defeat an opponent if you stay with them in the fog/dark
Extended Signature