I think the homebrew abilities could be an awesome reward to a Paladin if they are a party's only or main tank that really does a great job at protecting their allies.
It doesn't however, allow for a reasonable class comparison for player vs player or for mechanical differences.
That is a massively disproportionate buff to shields that is insanely more powerful than even the Heavy Armor Master feat. There is no reason for such a thing to exist.
That your DM has been playing for 40+ years indicates to me that they are clearly favoring the Paladin's player.
My theory was that the DM had the hubris (probably from playing for 40 years) to start tweaking 5e rules without actually understanding them first.
Yeah i wouldn’t necessarily leave the group but I would have a talk with the DM if possible to nerf the player. The shield rule is literally OP and is 3x better than the Heavy Armor master feat. It’s basically like a level 18 Champion fighter’s Regen ability but still better. I’d say there is no possible way to win this fight. Although, in a normal 1v1 monk vs paladin, Paladin would still probably win due to burst damage. There’s a chance to win a fair 1v1 at least.. that’s outright ridiculous..
Yeah don't also forget that for a Monk your Ability scores are crap...
Did you guys roll your abilities or something?... +3 Dex and +2 Wis.. heck no wonder that you hardly hit anything or that your spell dc is so low even for a lvl 6...
In a normal situation, paladin Vs Monk would still be an uphill battle, but you should play your strong points, speed, a fast Hit & run tactics, the pally doesn't have the speed you have, but Hold person, misty step etc are a huge help, but they cost spell slots.
If he uses those to keep up with you, he doesn't use them for his Divine smites, one way would be to dodge the ever living of him, and make him use his slots to either reach you, or try to stop your movements, also doesn't monks have a feat that they only need 5ft to get back from prone? or is that the Mobile feat, can't remember...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
We have actually discussed this homebrew paladin ability as a group now, and while yes it is a bit overpowered in a pvp scenario (especially against a monk that does a lot of attacks, all are low damage meaning that the reaction damage threshold will virtually always negate all the damage a monk can do), that for the regular campaign it works and should be kept. One of the biggest reasons why the DM gave this ability to the Paladin was because he felt is seemed odd the Paladin could use their reaction with their shield for someone else, but not for themselves, and that that reaction for themselves should be more substantial due to it being less awkward (easier to protect yourself with a shield than someone else). And in principle I agree with this sort of logic. While I still personally feel that the others in our party could maybe be compensated for areas where our classes may appear to be "out of line" with their theme like the shield reaction with Paladin, I won't be bringing this up anytime soon due to other reasons so I have no room to complain if I'm not willing to discuss it. I have found a way to at least possibly hold my own against the paladin should another pvp fun-time fight happen by switching the Magic Initiate feat to Hex and Eldritch Blast (DM initially said no to me switching the Magic Initiate feat to another classes spell list, but after he let another party member switch out a feat to a completely different one he allowed this small change for my monk) and then taking the Mobile feat, so as long as we are on some type of map that allows my monk to get some distance he'll stand a chance.
Well again its good to remember that DnD is absolulty not balanced for PvP.
Since its a cooperative game where some classes covers the weaknesses of other classes, thats how the gmae and classes where balanced.
So some classes will absolutly steamroll over others, its like this, and thats also the reason why Monsters doesn't have classes lvls, but Monsters statblocks.
But its good that you guys talked it out.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Remembering that these PvP sessions are for funbunnies and not the actual focus or goal of this campaign?
I would suggest, the next time the DM feels like running one, that the paladin not be allowed to use their enormously overpowered shield block reaction. Or at least that it act like every other damage reducer - 1d10+Paladin's Dex score, just like the monk's missile catch, rather than "auto-cockblock everything on a reasonably achievable roll". Your paladin buddy has triple your magic item count, a ridiculous assload of free healing you don't get, better stats than you do, adamantine armor well before the point when he should have adamantine armor, the DM lets him get away with murder and you get away with nada, and y'all are fighting in a shoebox.
Every possible edge has been leveled against your monk in this match, and you shouldn't feel bad for not being able to swing this one.
That said...Hex would be a very good contender for you. Don't bother with Eldritch Blast, your CHA score is too low to bother attacking with, but Hexing the palladalladingdong for disadvantage on his Strength ability checks means he rolls disadvantage for all his Shield Master hogwash, which should mean that with you getting to roll Acrobatics instead he suddenly has a much harder time knocking you prone. When you're on your feet, you can use Open Hand Technique to shove him around, and remember - Open Hand Technique also says you can remove the target's reaction until the END of your next turn. So if you can hit with one of your Flurry of Blows attacks, you can cut off their reaction, and thus their ability to use that bullshit shield block, until the end of your next turn. By which point you will have ideally hit him again and be able to do it a second time, allowing your damage to stick until he...
Ah, yes. Five free Cure Wounds spells, plus Lay on Hands.
yeah, no. You're not winning this fight, man. But rest assured - that is absolutely not your fault, not in the slightest.
EDIT: OKAY. Back after wandering off for a little bit because I'm legit pissed at your DM, talking to my own group some. A few additional pointers for the next time your DM invites you to bleed on the floor for his amusement and the amusement of his pet paladin.
1.) Sleight of Hand the Wand of Healing away from the paladin. if that duel-destroying item is on the board at all, it should be in your hands, not his. If the wand is in the paladin's pack or otherwise un-pickable, remind the DM that getting an item out of one's pack in the middle of a fight is NOT a free action. Either the wand is easily accessible and you can try to snatch it, or the wand is packed away and the paladin can't use it. If the wand doesn't need attunement, bam - you have the healing now, not the paladin, and that gives you a very slight chance. If it does need attunement, break it over your knee or something.
2.) Disarm the paladin. Get his sword away from him, make him use his backup dagger. Then get his backup dagger away from him. He can't Smite without a weapon in hand, and nobody wins an unarmed duel with a monk. Get his sword, hold onto it even if you can't use it, make him work his ass off to get it back. If your DM is going to overload this paladin with stuff, get as much of that stuff right back off of him as you can. Your attacks are mostly useless anyways, so don't make them. Instead, strip this guy of his gear one piece at a time.
3.) Buy some oil and a firestriker, or make Prestidigitation one of your cantrips. Crit-proof 20AC doesn't do snot against being doused in oil and lit aflame. Mr. I'm-So-Awesome-Watch-Me-Paste-You palladalladingdong won't be so cocky when he's wandless, swordless, Hex'd and running around on fire trying to catch a monk.
4.) If all of the above fails, or your DM shoots it all down and refuses to let you use unorthodox tactics to beat the plate-armored Draggernaut he's bludgeoning you with? Look your DM straight in the eye, say "this is bullshit. I'm not here to die for your amusement", pick up your character sheet, and walk out the door.
If it helps? My entire group is in the Discord for our game giving this DM the Internet Stink Eye for pounding you this hard. To quote our most evil, bloodthirsty kick-'em-when-they're-down player: "even if I ran a game in my own setting where everything is awful and PvP was frickin' mandatory, I wouldn't waterboard anyone that hard."
As someone who has played both a Monk and a Paladin and knows how well both classes can duel I can safely say that this Paladin is bonkers overloaded.
Like holy hell, your DM either hates you or really needs to do their job and balance out the fight somehow. I don't mean to get too critical of people, but this fight isn't even close to fair and a lot of it is the DM's fault.
Normally Paladin's are pretty good at most things, but they seriously struggle with Mobility and Ranged combat. Monk has the Mobility part on lock and should easily be able to kite the Paladin with some ranged tricks.
That being said, you're literally never going to win because I'm not sure how anything could beat that Paladin unless it either had five hard hitting multi attacks, or some seriously powerful spells at their disposal.
I could get into the nitty gritty of why you'd always lose, but I think everyone else already has. I'll say this though, your DM is definitely failing you. It bothers me a lot that they would give the Paladin a shield ability like that (which is insanely strong, and I don't think its balanced at all), as well as the loot that they have. A wand of healing with 5x cure wounds charges? What the hell!? Where's your cool loot? That's ridiculous!
Monks are sometimes considered the weakest class in the game, but they have moments where they can really shine. Duels can be one of those moments. Except your DM is setting up the fights to be literally impossible for you. I seriously don't see a scenario that you win in unless the Paladin get's stripped of a lot of their abilities or if you receive multiple buffs.
Sorry for the salt, but DMs like that make me livid. I've always gone the extra mile to make sure every single player I DM for is having fun, and its never fun to get wailed on in impossible fights unless its for a very good reason. DnD is a game. It's supposed to be fun. It's not your fault at all, I'm just really peeved for you >_>
I'm sorry, but he does. He is playing favourites to the extreme here. It's absolutely fine to make some totes bonkers OP homebrew things - as long as every player gets them and they're relatively equal. This is not happening in your case.
First off, ask to roll your stats again or switch to Point Buy / Manual Array. Your stats are beyond sucky. If you had gone Point Buy for instance you could have put 15 into Dex and 14 into Wis for a +3 in both. At level 6 you would have a +3 proficiency bonus so that would be DC 14 to any saving throws against your class features.
But, one can argue that this is the risk you choose to take when you roll for your stats so this isn't DM's fault here. I would recommend that your 4th Level ASI was used to increase stats rather than a feat, personally.
Now the Paladin and the list of things that indicate favouritism:
The Paladin has Plate Mizzium Armor which is Rare. And on the rarer side of rare being Plate.
The Paladin has a wand of healing you say. This is a homebrew item, not official, but based on rarity on other healing items like a Staff of Healing I'd put this as Uncommon. Nothing too big.
A Rare and an Uncommon for 6th Level isn't bad at all. However, the favouritism shines here because you don't have anything. They get a Rare and Uncommon, you've got nothing. A DM should be ensuring everyone gets sustainable loot - by that I mean, magic items that stick around and not one-shot consumables. The consumables are fun, but these are 'party decision one-offs' and everybody should be getting something that lasts.
You have no homebrew rules in your favour, the Paladin has 2: an OP improvement on their Shield Master feat and the DM is changing Shove/Grapple rules in favour of the Paladin.
You said you discussed the op Shield Master feat improvement and that his reasoning was, and I quote: "because he felt is seemed odd the Paladin could use their reaction with their shield for someone else, but not for themselves, and that that reaction for themselves should be more substantial due to it being less awkward (easier to protect yourself with a shield than someone else)."
He's lying.
The Shield Master feat cannot be used for anyone but the wielder. The feat does this: let you make a Shove action as a bonus action if you used your Action to attack, you add the shield bonus (+2 in this case) to your Dexterity saving throws against effects targeting only you, and if you make a Dexterity saving throw where you would take half damage on failure you take no damage instead.
That's it. That's the Shield Master feat. None of its features can benefit anyone else beyond the one using it. It does not have reactions, does nothing for anyone else and doesn't negate attack damage.
Your DM has no reason to be improving it and the improvement he has made is ridiculously overpowered.
For a DM with "40+ years experience" they should know to understand something properly before homebrew-tweaking it and should have a fair understanding of balance even if tweaking anything.
And the rule changes to Shove:
From the Basic Rules, with some bold emphasis added by me:
Shoving a Creature
Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you're able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.
The target must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within your reach. Instead of making an attack roll, you make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. If you succeed, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you.
The check to see if he can make you prone with the Shove action is his Strength (Athletics) versus your Dexterity (Acrobatics) and works the same as grappling.
As DM he is free to change rules but his rule changes should not be nerfing other players while improving one. There is no rhyme or reason to his rule change beyond ignorance (which could be easily rectified when you brought it up - it's his job to look up the rules when questioned about them, not yours to show him) or blatant favouritism, so my money is on the latter.
One of these things is a forgivable oversight that could be swiftly corrected. Multiple instances from somebody with years of experience is very bad. Intentionally or not they are favouring the Paladin over you.
If you're happy for that favouritism in normal play, that's fine, but in non-canon PVP there's nothing to stop him saying the Paladin get regular Plate amour and loses the homebrew and the wand. In otherwords: put you on even footing and in a large open space - not a measly 50 ft.
Everything being even, you're probably at a disadvantage in the fight - the monk is not a worse class than a Paladin but one against one the Paladin excels better at such battles a lot more than a Monk. You can still win, of course, it'll just be difficult and requires some luck. With your DM's favouritism for the Paladin, your chances are completely 0 unless the Paladin rolls really low or screws up.
You indicated you won't bring it up anymore. That's your choice. Personally, I would not accept the utter disrespect your DM has shown and demand they either get their head outta their arses and I'd leave if they don't. You'd be better off with a DM that knows how to respect their players and treat them equally.
I'm sorry, but he does. He is playing favourites to the extreme here. It's absolutely fine to make some totes bonkers OP homebrew things - as long as every player gets them and they're relatively equal. This is not happening in your case.
First off, ask to roll your stats again or switch to Point Buy / Manual Array. Your stats are beyond sucky. If you had gone Point Buy for instance you could have put 15 into Dex and 14 into Wis for a +3 in both. At level 6 you would have a +3 proficiency bonus so that would be DC 14 to any saving throws against your class features.
But, one can argue that this is the risk you choose to take when you roll for your stats so this isn't DM's fault here. I would recommend that your 4th Level ASI was used to increase stats rather than a feat, personally.
Now the Paladin and the list of things that indicate favouritism:
The Paladin has Plate Mizzium Armor which is Rare. And on the rarer side of rare being Plate.
The Paladin has a wand of healing you say. This is a homebrew item, not official, but based on rarity on other healing items like a Staff of Healing I'd put this as Uncommon. Nothing too big.
A Rare and an Uncommon for 6th Level isn't bad at all. However, the favouritism shines here because you don't have anything. They get a Rare and Uncommon, you've got nothing. A DM should be ensuring everyone gets sustainable loot - by that I mean, magic items that stick around and not one-shot consumables. The consumables are fun, but these are 'party decision one-offs' and everybody should be getting something that lasts.
You have no homebrew rules in your favour, the Paladin has 2: an OP improvement on their Shield Master feat and the DM is changing Shove/Grapple rules in favour of the Paladin.
You said you discussed the op Shield Master feat improvement and that his reasoning was, and I quote: "because he felt is seemed odd the Paladin could use their reaction with their shield for someone else, but not for themselves, and that that reaction for themselves should be more substantial due to it being less awkward (easier to protect yourself with a shield than someone else)."
He's lying.
The Shield Master feat cannot be used for anyone but the wielder. The feat does this: let you make a Shove action as a bonus action if you used your Action to attack, you add the shield bonus (+2 in this case) to your Dexterity saving throws against effects targeting only you, and if you make a Dexterity saving throw where you would take half damage on failure you take no damage instead.
That's it. That's the Shield Master feat. None of its features can benefit anyone else beyond the one using it. It does not have reactions, does nothing for anyone else and doesn't negate attack damage.
Your DM has no reason to be improving it and the improvement he has made is ridiculously overpowered.
For a DM with "40+ years experience" they should know to understand something properly before homebrew-tweaking it and should have a fair understanding of balance even if tweaking anything.
And the rule changes to Shove:
From the Basic Rules, with some bold emphasis added by me:
Shoving a Creature
Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you're able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.
The target must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within your reach. Instead of making an attack roll, you make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. If you succeed, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you.
The check to see if he can make you prone with the Shove action is his Strength (Athletics) versus your Dexterity (Acrobatics) and works the same as grappling.
As DM he is free to change rules but his rule changes should not be nerfing other players while improving one. There is no rhyme or reason to his rule change beyond ignorance (which could be easily rectified when you brought it up - it's his job to look up the rules when questioned about them, not yours to show him) or blatant favouritism, so my money is on the latter.
One of these things is a forgivable oversight that could be swiftly corrected. Multiple instances from somebody with years of experience is very bad. Intentionally or not they are favouring the Paladin over you.
If you're happy for that favouritism in normal play, that's fine, but in non-canon PVP there's nothing to stop him saying the Paladin get regular Plate amour and loses the homebrew and the wand. In otherwords: put you on even footing and in a large open space - not a measly 50 ft.
Everything being even, you're probably at a disadvantage in the fight - the monk is not a worse class than a Paladin but one against one the Paladin excels better at such battles a lot more than a Monk. You can still win, of course, it'll just be difficult and requires some luck. With your DM's favouritism for the Paladin, your chances are completely 0 unless the Paladin rolls really low or screws up.
You indicated you won't bring it up anymore. That's your choice. Personally, I would not accept the utter disrespect your DM has shown and demand they either get their head outta their arses and I'd leave if they don't. You'd be better off with a DM that knows how to respect their players and treat them equally.
If, you bring it up with your DM and he doesn't give you a good homebrew rule or nerf the pally, I'd just quit. This is just pure favoritism on your DM's part. You might also want to show him this thread, if he hasn't seen it already.
Cyber, I think it's worth clarifying that it sounds like the reaction to protect party members is probably from the Protection fighting style, not the shield master feat.
However, addressing OP's DM's reasoning that "he can use his reaction to protect others, why not himself?" It sounds like he doesn't fully understand the 5e rules.
The paladin does get to protect himself with his shield, and he can do it for free with no cost of a reaction, because that's what the +2 to his AC represents. He doesn't need an extra ability to get any benefit from his shield, he has a benefit from it just by having it equipped.
Cyber, I think it's worth clarifying that it sounds like the reaction to protect party members is probably from the Protection fighting style, not the shield master feat.
However, addressing OP's DM's reasoning that "he can use his reaction to protect others, why not himself?" It sounds like he doesn't fully understand the 5e rules.
The paladin does get to protect himself with his shield, and he can do it for free with no cost of a reaction, because that's what the +2 to his AC represents. He doesn't need an extra ability to get any benefit from his shield, he has a benefit from it just by having it equipped.
This is correct in that I was referring to the modification to the Protection fighting style feature, not the Shield Master feat. I agree that the above reason is why the +2 to AC exists, and that the reaction isn't necessarily needed unless the others in the party see some sort of equivalent benefit. It seems most in this thread would agree with that, and when I discussed this with the other party members one on one (before we spoke as a group) it seems like everyone is hoping that we see some sort of equivalent as the story progresses and would rather give our DM the chance to let that unfold rather than demand it. The group talk seemed to silently reinforce this idea as well.
Also, it should be noted that I didn't roll for stats, I built my character here on D&D Beyond using the Point Buy system, which is what the paladin did as well (although the other three party members rolled for stats, but luckily they ended up with very comparable stats to us, so it all worked out despite using different systems).
As i stated previously I think if I were to point out that in the rules it says I can use Acrobatics against a Shove that he would probably allow it (but it hasn't come up again for me to point it out) as I imagine he was only saying "strength vs strength" because that can seem logical and he was making a ruling in the moment to keep the action flowing. Our DM has always been seemed quite good at adjusting his judgement of the storytelling of what we are trying to do when we point out that the rules support it.
Taking the paladin's items away in a pvp combat is a grand idea, unfortunately the DM has said this is pretty nearly impossible for the paladin's shield (being strapped to the arm, me not being able to wield it or store it quickly resulting in the only real combat choice of having to only drop it on the ground, which the paladin would be able pick up again quickly) and has stated that he doesn't allow Disarming because then "enemies can do it to you too". And to be fair, per the DMG, this is an optional rule for DMs and he has been consistent with this. In fact in our current fight I've just stunned a magic user holding a wand and I stated that I wanted to take the wand, the DM has initially said no I couldn't do that, but after the session I pointed out that a stunned creature automatically fails DEX and STR checks and he admitted that he hadn't thought of that. As the fight isn't over I will try this same tactic again if I survive to my next round.
I should also point out that while the paladin never did use the cure wounds healing wand in our fight, the distribution of magic items has been almost entirely at the discretion of the party members, not the DM. If fact other than the ranger starting out with a Horn of Silent Alarm and Boots of Winter Lands (he joined the campaign late, so that is why he started with these), and the paladin's adamantine armor, all other items have been left up to us (although some have clearly been meant for specific people, such as my Monk's Insignia of Claws, the Rogue's Boots of Elven Stealth, and the Paladin's Sensor of Favor attuned to their god; the barbarian hasn't had any items "clearly" meant for him yet but the group hasn't ignored him in the distribution).
Thanks to everyone for their comments and ideas, I really like the one of getting oil and setting the opponent on fire, it's a handy out of the box idea that would go along with my monk's line of thinking. It's also nice to know that I haven't blindly been missing some key element of the monk class or that my feelings on this issue aren't wildly off base. Our DM is a good guy, seems to be doing a pretty decent job (granted I'm new and have only ever watched some online streams like Critical Role), but perhaps has a bit of a love affair with knights and the like.
Remembering that these PvP sessions are for funbunnies and not the actual focus or goal of this campaign?
I would suggest, the next time the DM feels like running one, that the paladin not be allowed to use their enormously overpowered shield block reaction. Or at least that it act like every other damage reducer - 1d10+Paladin's Dex score, just like the monk's missile catch, rather than "auto-cockblock everything on a reasonably achievable roll". Your paladin buddy has triple your magic item count, a ridiculous assload of free healing you don't get, better stats than you do, adamantine armor well before the point when he should have adamantine armor, the DM lets him get away with murder and you get away with nada, and y'all are fighting in a shoebox.
Every possible edge has been leveled against your monk in this match, and you shouldn't feel bad for not being able to swing this one.
That said...Hex would be a very good contender for you. Don't bother with Eldritch Blast, your CHA score is too low to bother attacking with, but Hexing the palladalladingdong for disadvantage on his Strength ability checks means he rolls disadvantage for all his Shield Master hogwash, which should mean that with you getting to roll Acrobatics instead he suddenly has a much harder time knocking you prone. When you're on your feet, you can use Open Hand Technique to shove him around, and remember - Open Hand Technique also says you can remove the target's reaction until the END of your next turn. So if you can hit with one of your Flurry of Blows attacks, you can cut off their reaction, and thus their ability to use that bullshit shield block, until the end of your next turn. By which point you will have ideally hit him again and be able to do it a second time, allowing your damage to stick until he...
Ah, yes. Five free Cure Wounds spells, plus Lay on Hands.
yeah, no. You're not winning this fight, man. But rest assured - that is absolutely not your fault, not in the slightest.
EDIT: OKAY. Back after wandering off for a little bit because I'm legit pissed at your DM, talking to my own group some. A few additional pointers for the next time your DM invites you to bleed on the floor for his amusement and the amusement of his pet paladin.
1.) Sleight of Hand the Wand of Healing away from the paladin. if that duel-destroying item is on the board at all, it should be in your hands, not his. If the wand is in the paladin's pack or otherwise un-pickable, remind the DM that getting an item out of one's pack in the middle of a fight is NOT a free action. Either the wand is easily accessible and you can try to snatch it, or the wand is packed away and the paladin can't use it. If the wand doesn't need attunement, bam - you have the healing now, not the paladin, and that gives you a very slight chance. If it does need attunement, break it over your knee or something.
2.) Disarm the paladin. Get his sword away from him, make him use his backup dagger. Then get his backup dagger away from him. He can't Smite without a weapon in hand, and nobody wins an unarmed duel with a monk. Get his sword, hold onto it even if you can't use it, make him work his ass off to get it back. If your DM is going to overload this paladin with stuff, get as much of that stuff right back off of him as you can. Your attacks are mostly useless anyways, so don't make them. Instead, strip this guy of his gear one piece at a time.
3.) Buy some oil and a firestriker, or make Prestidigitation one of your cantrips. Crit-proof 20AC doesn't do snot against being doused in oil and lit aflame. Mr. I'm-So-Awesome-Watch-Me-Paste-You palladalladingdong won't be so cocky when he's wandless, swordless, Hex'd and running around on fire trying to catch a monk.
4.) If all of the above fails, or your DM shoots it all down and refuses to let you use unorthodox tactics to beat the plate-armored Draggernaut he's bludgeoning you with? Look your DM straight in the eye, say "this is bullshit. I'm not here to die for your amusement", pick up your character sheet, and walk out the door.
If it helps? My entire group is in the Discord for our game giving this DM the Internet Stink Eye for pounding you this hard. To quote our most evil, bloodthirsty kick-'em-when-they're-down player: "even if I ran a game in my own setting where everything is awful and PvP was frickin' mandatory, I wouldn't waterboard anyone that hard."
As a Paladin main player I will out right say this is ridiculous. This homebrew rule is ******** beyond scale it makes essentially a lame duck Paladin OP.
Yes I'm saying it this Paladins stats are absolute garbage if he knew what he was doing he should have far better stats using point buy. Hell my current AL paladin has a 15str 8 dex 16con 8 int 8 wis and 17 chr as an Assimar. A ring of protection would negate all the negatives to saving throws. The things pushing him over the edge are these hombrew items and the wand of healing. I could say more on this knowing the full item list. I'm assuming plate and shield to get to 20 AC?
This all said monks do not perform well against high AC enemies. It's their down side. Furthermore you're also going against the most mobile paladin oath in the game. Even without the hombrew it be a super hard fight for you.
We have actually discussed this homebrew paladin ability as a group now, and while yes it is a bit overpowered in a pvp scenario (especially against a monk that does a lot of attacks, all are low damage meaning that the reaction damage threshold will virtually always negate all the damage a monk can do), that for the regular campaign it works and should be kept. One of the biggest reasons why the DM gave this ability to the Paladin was because he felt is seemed odd the Paladin could use their reaction with their shield for someone else, but not for themselves, and that that reaction for themselves should be more substantial due to it being less awkward (easier to protect yourself with a shield than someone else). And in principle I agree with this sort of logic. While I still personally feel that the others in our party could maybe be compensated for areas where our classes may appear to be "out of line" with their theme like the shield reaction with Paladin, I won't be bringing this up anytime soon due to other reasons so I have no room to complain if I'm not willing to discuss it. I have found a way to at least possibly hold my own against the paladin should another pvp fun-time fight happen by switching the Magic Initiate feat to Hex and Eldritch Blast (DM initially said no to me switching the Magic Initiate feat to another classes spell list, but after he let another party member switch out a feat to a completely different one he allowed this small change for my monk) and then taking the Mobile feat, so as long as we are on some type of map that allows my monk to get some distance he'll stand a chance.
That’s why they get a +2 to AC 24/7. This logic is insanely mis-interpreted.
Even if it was a fair paladin/monk fight the monk would still struggle because they are short rest oriented rather than long rest oriented like the paladin. I'ts like warlock vs wizard. In the MM a level 18 wizard is cr 12, in VGTM a level 17 warlock is cr 7.
I think the homebrew abilities could be an awesome reward to a Paladin if they are a party's only or main tank that really does a great job at protecting their allies.
It doesn't however, allow for a reasonable class comparison for player vs player or for mechanical differences.
My theory was that the DM had the hubris (probably from playing for 40 years) to start tweaking 5e rules without actually understanding them first.
Yeah i wouldn’t necessarily leave the group but I would have a talk with the DM if possible to nerf the player. The shield rule is literally OP and is 3x better than the Heavy Armor master feat. It’s basically like a level 18 Champion fighter’s Regen ability but still better. I’d say there is no possible way to win this fight. Although, in a normal 1v1 monk vs paladin, Paladin would still probably win due to burst damage. There’s a chance to win a fair 1v1 at least.. that’s outright ridiculous..
Yeah don't also forget that for a Monk your Ability scores are crap...
Did you guys roll your abilities or something?... +3 Dex and +2 Wis.. heck no wonder that you hardly hit anything or that your spell dc is so low even for a lvl 6...
In a normal situation, paladin Vs Monk would still be an uphill battle, but you should play your strong points, speed, a fast Hit & run tactics, the pally doesn't have the speed you have, but Hold person, misty step etc are a huge help, but they cost spell slots.
If he uses those to keep up with you, he doesn't use them for his Divine smites, one way would be to dodge the ever living of him, and make him use his slots to either reach you, or try to stop your movements, also doesn't monks have a feat that they only need 5ft to get back from prone? or is that the Mobile feat, can't remember...
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)
You are thinking of the athlete feat.
Ah yes.
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)
We have actually discussed this homebrew paladin ability as a group now, and while yes it is a bit overpowered in a pvp scenario (especially against a monk that does a lot of attacks, all are low damage meaning that the reaction damage threshold will virtually always negate all the damage a monk can do), that for the regular campaign it works and should be kept. One of the biggest reasons why the DM gave this ability to the Paladin was because he felt is seemed odd the Paladin could use their reaction with their shield for someone else, but not for themselves, and that that reaction for themselves should be more substantial due to it being less awkward (easier to protect yourself with a shield than someone else). And in principle I agree with this sort of logic. While I still personally feel that the others in our party could maybe be compensated for areas where our classes may appear to be "out of line" with their theme like the shield reaction with Paladin, I won't be bringing this up anytime soon due to other reasons so I have no room to complain if I'm not willing to discuss it. I have found a way to at least possibly hold my own against the paladin should another pvp fun-time fight happen by switching the Magic Initiate feat to Hex and Eldritch Blast (DM initially said no to me switching the Magic Initiate feat to another classes spell list, but after he let another party member switch out a feat to a completely different one he allowed this small change for my monk) and then taking the Mobile feat, so as long as we are on some type of map that allows my monk to get some distance he'll stand a chance.
As long as you and your group are happy with the arrangement that is all that matters, but it is OP in my opinion. Good luck in your games :)
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
Well again its good to remember that DnD is absolulty not balanced for PvP.
Since its a cooperative game where some classes covers the weaknesses of other classes, thats how the gmae and classes where balanced.
So some classes will absolutly steamroll over others, its like this, and thats also the reason why Monsters doesn't have classes lvls, but Monsters statblocks.
But its good that you guys talked it out.
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)
Remembering that these PvP sessions are for funbunnies and not the actual focus or goal of this campaign?
I would suggest, the next time the DM feels like running one, that the paladin not be allowed to use their enormously overpowered shield block reaction. Or at least that it act like every other damage reducer - 1d10+Paladin's Dex score, just like the monk's missile catch, rather than "auto-cockblock everything on a reasonably achievable roll". Your paladin buddy has triple your magic item count, a ridiculous assload of free healing you don't get, better stats than you do, adamantine armor well before the point when he should have adamantine armor, the DM lets him get away with murder and you get away with nada, and y'all are fighting in a shoebox.
Every possible edge has been leveled against your monk in this match, and you shouldn't feel bad for not being able to swing this one.
That said...Hex would be a very good contender for you. Don't bother with Eldritch Blast, your CHA score is too low to bother attacking with, but Hexing the palladalladingdong for disadvantage on his Strength ability checks means he rolls disadvantage for all his Shield Master hogwash, which should mean that with you getting to roll Acrobatics instead he suddenly has a much harder time knocking you prone. When you're on your feet, you can use Open Hand Technique to shove him around, and remember - Open Hand Technique also says you can remove the target's reaction until the END of your next turn. So if you can hit with one of your Flurry of Blows attacks, you can cut off their reaction, and thus their ability to use that bullshit shield block, until the end of your next turn. By which point you will have ideally hit him again and be able to do it a second time, allowing your damage to stick until he...
Ah, yes. Five free Cure Wounds spells, plus Lay on Hands.
yeah, no. You're not winning this fight, man. But rest assured - that is absolutely not your fault, not in the slightest.
EDIT: OKAY. Back after wandering off for a little bit because I'm legit pissed at your DM, talking to my own group some. A few additional pointers for the next time your DM invites you to bleed on the floor for his amusement and the amusement of his pet paladin.
1.) Sleight of Hand the Wand of Healing away from the paladin. if that duel-destroying item is on the board at all, it should be in your hands, not his. If the wand is in the paladin's pack or otherwise un-pickable, remind the DM that getting an item out of one's pack in the middle of a fight is NOT a free action. Either the wand is easily accessible and you can try to snatch it, or the wand is packed away and the paladin can't use it. If the wand doesn't need attunement, bam - you have the healing now, not the paladin, and that gives you a very slight chance. If it does need attunement, break it over your knee or something.
2.) Disarm the paladin. Get his sword away from him, make him use his backup dagger. Then get his backup dagger away from him. He can't Smite without a weapon in hand, and nobody wins an unarmed duel with a monk. Get his sword, hold onto it even if you can't use it, make him work his ass off to get it back. If your DM is going to overload this paladin with stuff, get as much of that stuff right back off of him as you can. Your attacks are mostly useless anyways, so don't make them. Instead, strip this guy of his gear one piece at a time.
3.) Buy some oil and a firestriker, or make Prestidigitation one of your cantrips. Crit-proof 20AC doesn't do snot against being doused in oil and lit aflame. Mr. I'm-So-Awesome-Watch-Me-Paste-You palladalladingdong won't be so cocky when he's wandless, swordless, Hex'd and running around on fire trying to catch a monk.
4.) If all of the above fails, or your DM shoots it all down and refuses to let you use unorthodox tactics to beat the plate-armored Draggernaut he's bludgeoning you with? Look your DM straight in the eye, say "this is bullshit. I'm not here to die for your amusement", pick up your character sheet, and walk out the door.
If it helps? My entire group is in the Discord for our game giving this DM the Internet Stink Eye for pounding you this hard. To quote our most evil, bloodthirsty kick-'em-when-they're-down player: "even if I ran a game in my own setting where everything is awful and PvP was frickin' mandatory, I wouldn't waterboard anyone that hard."
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As someone who has played both a Monk and a Paladin and knows how well both classes can duel I can safely say that this Paladin is bonkers overloaded.
Like holy hell, your DM either hates you or really needs to do their job and balance out the fight somehow. I don't mean to get too critical of people, but this fight isn't even close to fair and a lot of it is the DM's fault.
Normally Paladin's are pretty good at most things, but they seriously struggle with Mobility and Ranged combat. Monk has the Mobility part on lock and should easily be able to kite the Paladin with some ranged tricks.
That being said, you're literally never going to win because I'm not sure how anything could beat that Paladin unless it either had five hard hitting multi attacks, or some seriously powerful spells at their disposal.
I could get into the nitty gritty of why you'd always lose, but I think everyone else already has. I'll say this though, your DM is definitely failing you. It bothers me a lot that they would give the Paladin a shield ability like that (which is insanely strong, and I don't think its balanced at all), as well as the loot that they have. A wand of healing with 5x cure wounds charges? What the hell!? Where's your cool loot? That's ridiculous!
Monks are sometimes considered the weakest class in the game, but they have moments where they can really shine. Duels can be one of those moments. Except your DM is setting up the fights to be literally impossible for you. I seriously don't see a scenario that you win in unless the Paladin get's stripped of a lot of their abilities or if you receive multiple buffs.
Sorry for the salt, but DMs like that make me livid. I've always gone the extra mile to make sure every single player I DM for is having fun, and its never fun to get wailed on in impossible fights unless its for a very good reason. DnD is a game. It's supposed to be fun. It's not your fault at all, I'm just really peeved for you >_>
arpinduellyer86
Your DM sucks.
I'm sorry, but he does. He is playing favourites to the extreme here. It's absolutely fine to make some totes bonkers OP homebrew things - as long as every player gets them and they're relatively equal. This is not happening in your case.
First off, ask to roll your stats again or switch to Point Buy / Manual Array. Your stats are beyond sucky. If you had gone Point Buy for instance you could have put 15 into Dex and 14 into Wis for a +3 in both. At level 6 you would have a +3 proficiency bonus so that would be DC 14 to any saving throws against your class features.
But, one can argue that this is the risk you choose to take when you roll for your stats so this isn't DM's fault here. I would recommend that your 4th Level ASI was used to increase stats rather than a feat, personally.
Now the Paladin and the list of things that indicate favouritism:
The Paladin has Plate Mizzium Armor which is Rare. And on the rarer side of rare being Plate.
The Paladin has a wand of healing you say. This is a homebrew item, not official, but based on rarity on other healing items like a Staff of Healing I'd put this as Uncommon. Nothing too big.
A Rare and an Uncommon for 6th Level isn't bad at all. However, the favouritism shines here because you don't have anything. They get a Rare and Uncommon, you've got nothing. A DM should be ensuring everyone gets sustainable loot - by that I mean, magic items that stick around and not one-shot consumables. The consumables are fun, but these are 'party decision one-offs' and everybody should be getting something that lasts.
You have no homebrew rules in your favour, the Paladin has 2: an OP improvement on their Shield Master feat and the DM is changing Shove/Grapple rules in favour of the Paladin.
You said you discussed the op Shield Master feat improvement and that his reasoning was, and I quote: "because he felt is seemed odd the Paladin could use their reaction with their shield for someone else, but not for themselves, and that that reaction for themselves should be more substantial due to it being less awkward (easier to protect yourself with a shield than someone else)."
He's lying.
The Shield Master feat cannot be used for anyone but the wielder. The feat does this: let you make a Shove action as a bonus action if you used your Action to attack, you add the shield bonus (+2 in this case) to your Dexterity saving throws against effects targeting only you, and if you make a Dexterity saving throw where you would take half damage on failure you take no damage instead.
That's it. That's the Shield Master feat. None of its features can benefit anyone else beyond the one using it. It does not have reactions, does nothing for anyone else and doesn't negate attack damage.
Your DM has no reason to be improving it and the improvement he has made is ridiculously overpowered.
For a DM with "40+ years experience" they should know to understand something properly before homebrew-tweaking it and should have a fair understanding of balance even if tweaking anything.
And the rule changes to Shove:
From the Basic Rules, with some bold emphasis added by me:
The check to see if he can make you prone with the Shove action is his Strength (Athletics) versus your Dexterity (Acrobatics) and works the same as grappling.
As DM he is free to change rules but his rule changes should not be nerfing other players while improving one. There is no rhyme or reason to his rule change beyond ignorance (which could be easily rectified when you brought it up - it's his job to look up the rules when questioned about them, not yours to show him) or blatant favouritism, so my money is on the latter.
One of these things is a forgivable oversight that could be swiftly corrected. Multiple instances from somebody with years of experience is very bad. Intentionally or not they are favouring the Paladin over you.
If you're happy for that favouritism in normal play, that's fine, but in non-canon PVP there's nothing to stop him saying the Paladin get regular Plate amour and loses the homebrew and the wand. In otherwords: put you on even footing and in a large open space - not a measly 50 ft.
Everything being even, you're probably at a disadvantage in the fight - the monk is not a worse class than a Paladin but one against one the Paladin excels better at such battles a lot more than a Monk. You can still win, of course, it'll just be difficult and requires some luck. With your DM's favouritism for the Paladin, your chances are completely 0 unless the Paladin rolls really low or screws up.
You indicated you won't bring it up anymore. That's your choice. Personally, I would not accept the utter disrespect your DM has shown and demand they either get their head outta their arses and I'd leave if they don't. You'd be better off with a DM that knows how to respect their players and treat them equally.
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Completely agree
If, you bring it up with your DM and he doesn't give you a good homebrew rule or nerf the pally, I'd just quit. This is just pure favoritism on your DM's part. You might also want to show him this thread, if he hasn't seen it already.
Cyber, I think it's worth clarifying that it sounds like the reaction to protect party members is probably from the Protection fighting style, not the shield master feat.
However, addressing OP's DM's reasoning that "he can use his reaction to protect others, why not himself?" It sounds like he doesn't fully understand the 5e rules.
The paladin does get to protect himself with his shield, and he can do it for free with no cost of a reaction, because that's what the +2 to his AC represents. He doesn't need an extra ability to get any benefit from his shield, he has a benefit from it just by having it equipped.
This is correct in that I was referring to the modification to the Protection fighting style feature, not the Shield Master feat. I agree that the above reason is why the +2 to AC exists, and that the reaction isn't necessarily needed unless the others in the party see some sort of equivalent benefit. It seems most in this thread would agree with that, and when I discussed this with the other party members one on one (before we spoke as a group) it seems like everyone is hoping that we see some sort of equivalent as the story progresses and would rather give our DM the chance to let that unfold rather than demand it. The group talk seemed to silently reinforce this idea as well.
Also, it should be noted that I didn't roll for stats, I built my character here on D&D Beyond using the Point Buy system, which is what the paladin did as well (although the other three party members rolled for stats, but luckily they ended up with very comparable stats to us, so it all worked out despite using different systems).
As i stated previously I think if I were to point out that in the rules it says I can use Acrobatics against a Shove that he would probably allow it (but it hasn't come up again for me to point it out) as I imagine he was only saying "strength vs strength" because that can seem logical and he was making a ruling in the moment to keep the action flowing. Our DM has always been seemed quite good at adjusting his judgement of the storytelling of what we are trying to do when we point out that the rules support it.
Taking the paladin's items away in a pvp combat is a grand idea, unfortunately the DM has said this is pretty nearly impossible for the paladin's shield (being strapped to the arm, me not being able to wield it or store it quickly resulting in the only real combat choice of having to only drop it on the ground, which the paladin would be able pick up again quickly) and has stated that he doesn't allow Disarming because then "enemies can do it to you too". And to be fair, per the DMG, this is an optional rule for DMs and he has been consistent with this. In fact in our current fight I've just stunned a magic user holding a wand and I stated that I wanted to take the wand, the DM has initially said no I couldn't do that, but after the session I pointed out that a stunned creature automatically fails DEX and STR checks and he admitted that he hadn't thought of that. As the fight isn't over I will try this same tactic again if I survive to my next round.
I should also point out that while the paladin never did use the cure wounds healing wand in our fight, the distribution of magic items has been almost entirely at the discretion of the party members, not the DM. If fact other than the ranger starting out with a Horn of Silent Alarm and Boots of Winter Lands (he joined the campaign late, so that is why he started with these), and the paladin's adamantine armor, all other items have been left up to us (although some have clearly been meant for specific people, such as my Monk's Insignia of Claws, the Rogue's Boots of Elven Stealth, and the Paladin's Sensor of Favor attuned to their god; the barbarian hasn't had any items "clearly" meant for him yet but the group hasn't ignored him in the distribution).
Thanks to everyone for their comments and ideas, I really like the one of getting oil and setting the opponent on fire, it's a handy out of the box idea that would go along with my monk's line of thinking. It's also nice to know that I haven't blindly been missing some key element of the monk class or that my feelings on this issue aren't wildly off base. Our DM is a good guy, seems to be doing a pretty decent job (granted I'm new and have only ever watched some online streams like Critical Role), but perhaps has a bit of a love affair with knights and the like.
Glorious
As a Paladin main player I will out right say this is ridiculous. This homebrew rule is ******** beyond scale it makes essentially a lame duck Paladin OP.
Yes I'm saying it this Paladins stats are absolute garbage if he knew what he was doing he should have far better stats using point buy. Hell my current AL paladin has a 15str 8 dex 16con 8 int 8 wis and 17 chr as an Assimar. A ring of protection would negate all the negatives to saving throws. The things pushing him over the edge are these hombrew items and the wand of healing. I could say more on this knowing the full item list. I'm assuming plate and shield to get to 20 AC?
This all said monks do not perform well against high AC enemies. It's their down side. Furthermore you're also going against the most mobile paladin oath in the game. Even without the hombrew it be a super hard fight for you.
That’s why they get a +2 to AC 24/7. This logic is insanely mis-interpreted.
Even if it was a fair paladin/monk fight the monk would still struggle because they are short rest oriented rather than long rest oriented like the paladin. I'ts like warlock vs wizard. In the MM a level 18 wizard is cr 12, in VGTM a level 17 warlock is cr 7.