Technically a sling should have better range than the D&D longbow and the longbow should have 4x the range.
To hit a single, moving, actively defensive creature? I don't attribute the long range of a longbow to be as far as it can shoot. It's the maximum distance you can shoot with enough accuracy that it's worth rolling to see if you hit.
Third edition made it technically possible to fire a composite longbow against targets that were something like half a mile away. You just took a -16 range penalty, which meant that your chances of actually hitting were typically not worth the shot. I think there was a prestige class that could let you target anything so long as it was within your line of sight with no penalty for stupid shots at targets that were on the horizon provided your GM actually let you see them that far away.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
As far as fighting style combinations go, the ones up for consideration are archery, thrown weapon fighting, dueling, and two weapon fighting. They can be broken up three ways:
Combinations that do not work at all (dueling + archery, archery + two weapon fighting, dueling + two weapon fighting).
Combinations that work with darts but not with other thrown weapons (archery + thrown weapon fighting).
Combinations that work with other thrown weapons but not with darts (dueling + thrown weapon fighting, thrown weapon fighting + two weapon fighting).
Dueling + archery: This does not work because dueling requires a melee weapon and archery requires a ranged weapon.
Archery + two weapon fighting: This does not work because two weapon fighting requires melee weapons and archery requires ranged weapons.
Dueling + two weapon fighting: This does not work because two weapon fighting requires a weapon in both hands and dueling requires a weapon in one hand but not the other. This combination is not relevant to our discussion, but I included it for completeness.
Archery + thrown weapon fighting: This works with darts because archery requires a ranged weapon and thrown weapon fighting requires a weapon with the thrown property. Darts are considered ranged weapons and they have the thrown property. It does not work with other thrown weapons such as handaxes or light hammers, because they are considered melee weapons and are therefore ineligible for archery.
Thrown weapon fighting + two weapon fighting: This does not work with darts because two weapon fighting requires melee weapons. Darts are considered ranged weapons and are therefore ineligible for two weapon fighting. However, this does still work with other thrown weapons such as handaxes or light hammers, because they are considered melee weapons and they have the thrown property.
Dueling + thrown weapon fighting: This does not work with darts because dueling requires a melee weapon. Darts are considered ranged weapons and are therefore ineligible for dueling. However, this does still work with other thrown weapons such as handaxes or light hammers, because they are considered melee weapons and they have the thrown property.
So, if you are using darts (which work with sharpshooter due to being ranged weapons), you'll want archery + thrown weapon fighting, but if you are using other thrown weapons (which do not work with sharpshooter), you'll want either dueling + thrown weapon fighting or thrown weapon fighting + two weapon fighting.
Two-Weapon Fighting is not melee only (throwing is okay), but it is melee WEAPON only (daggers okay, darts or crossbows are not). Does that make sense?
If a DM would let you, the roped dart from wushu fighting would solve the returning/ammunition problem. You’re just flinging around your dart on a rope several times per round.
You start things off with a Quick Toss Net and if it connects you go to town on them with Sharpshooter boosted Darts spamming additional maneuvers if you want to burst. I basically roleplay the Dart as Yondu's Arrow from Guardians of the Galaxy :D
I would say as the dice are small for Darts that Eleven Accuracy (and crit-fishing) isn’t really necessary or that beneficial. Also how come you are adding Gunner?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
D&D, Youth Work and the Priesthood sadly do not typically interact... I do what I can!
Elven Accuracy is to offset the Sharpshooter penalty not really for crit fishing although crits are always nice and you could throw in some maneuvers on a crit for more damage. Gunner is for no disadvantage when the enemy is within 5 ft. Basically what Crossbow Expert gives but with a extra DEX point. Gunner paired with Sharpshooter means you can throw the Net without disadvantage.
Is that really worth two feats? I mean I really like the Net, but two feats is a lot to try to make that have... questionable utility. Elven Accuracy is totally overkill for Sharpshooter, better to just raise Dex by a long shot!
Elven Accuracy is to offset the Sharpshooter penalty not really for crit fishing although crits are always nice and you could throw in some maneuvers on a crit for more damage. Gunner is for no disadvantage when the enemy is within 5 ft. Basically what Crossbow Expert gives but with a extra DEX point. Gunner paired with Sharpshooter means you can throw the Net without disadvantage.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
D&D, Youth Work and the Priesthood sadly do not typically interact... I do what I can!
Restrained is an unbelievably powerful condition, so yeah, I'd say that a couple of feats (which have plenty of other value) is a very small price to pay. The only real draw backs of a Net are (1) disadvantage on its attacks and (2) low DC to escape, but if you can take a feat to eliminate #1 that also provides +1 Dex and also lets you use ranged attacks in melee without disadvantage in general... that's win-win-win. #2 still sucks, but at least they have to use an entire action or one of their attacks to escape, so if you can carry around a few nets to cycle through, still very useful for you and the whole party!
Someone who's better at math than me, feel free to correct, but I think that having advantage on an attack vs a regular attack is often ~+25% accuracy. Having Elven advantage+ probably bumps that up to ~+37.5% accuracy? When you weight the +10 damage from sharpshooter against the -25% chance to hit, it's often only really adding ~5ish true DPR per use, because it's losing 2.5 of its own damage, as well as 25% of the damage of the base attack. Offsetting that with +% to hit returns amazing DPR dividends, which is the entire reason that Sharpshooter + Archer fighting style is higher DPR than Great Weapon Master + Great Weapon Fighting Style, even though it would look like GWFS should more directly increase DPR.
This has nothing to do with a dart build, but I think the rogue makes an excellent net user with feat investment.
crossbow expert to be able to use your action to throw the net at close range without disadvantage. The net being a one handed weapon used with your attack action allows for a hand crossbow attack to be made as a bonus action. You have a great chance to deal your sneak damage as well as support your team.
you can couple this with the sentinel feat. You could pull out a finesse melee weapon, and if the restrained creature attacks your net to destroy it, you get a reaction attack and possibly another use of sneak attack that round.
Is that really worth two feats? I mean I really like the Net, but two feats is a lot to try to make that have... questionable utility. Elven Accuracy is totally overkill for Sharpshooter, better to just raise Dex by a long shot!
Elven Accuracy is to offset the Sharpshooter penalty not really for crit fishing although crits are always nice and you could throw in some maneuvers on a crit for more damage. Gunner is for no disadvantage when the enemy is within 5 ft. Basically what Crossbow Expert gives but with a extra DEX point. Gunner paired with Sharpshooter means you can throw the Net without disadvantage.
Fistly 2 feats might seem like a lot but for Fighters its actually not that bad, since they get a couple more ASIs compared to most other classes. And secondly you can never have overkill when it comes to advantage :). Thirdly if I were to get something else over Elven Accuracy I would get Fighting Initiate for Archery before I get DEX.
Is that really worth two feats? I mean I really like the Net, but two feats is a lot to try to make that have... questionable utility. Elven Accuracy is totally overkill for Sharpshooter, better to just raise Dex by a long shot!
Elven Accuracy is to offset the Sharpshooter penalty not really for crit fishing although crits are always nice and you could throw in some maneuvers on a crit for more damage. Gunner is for no disadvantage when the enemy is within 5 ft. Basically what Crossbow Expert gives but with a extra DEX point. Gunner paired with Sharpshooter means you can throw the Net without disadvantage.
Fistly 2 feats might seem like a lot but for Fighters its actually not that bad, since they get a couple more ASIs compared to most other classes. And secondly you can never have overkill when it comes to advantage :). Thirdly if I were to get something else over Elven Accuracy I would get Fighting Initiate for Archery before I get DEX.
You all are forgetting, the Net has disadvantage at normal range without crossbow expert, and at long range without sharpshooter. You would really need both of those to be effective. And then Elven Accuracy too…. That’s now three feats to make nets not suck. And now you’re talking about adding Fighting Initiate too, so four feats.
The nets were brought up in the context of a dart build that is already taking Gunner and Sharpshooter. So really, all we're talking about is one more feat (Elven Accuracy, which itself provides +1 Dex) to fully exploit the advantage that Restrained will provide. But even without EA, the Net is already fully viable using the exact same feats that the Sharpshooter dart user is already using.
There is no down side to using a net with darts, other than to the extent that it stops you from wielding a Shield. -2 AC is the cost of the Net, not the feats.
A VHuman Fighter 6 could easily have Gunner (+1 Dex and ranged in melee with no disadvantage), Sharpshooter, Piercer (+1 Dex and some DPR boosting), Archery Fighting Style, and 18 Dex... throwing out 1 Net and 1 Dart per turn, or 2 Darts if already Restrained. Your DM will probably need to make a ruling about whether Nets can be tossed Sharpshooter-style to deal 10+Dex damage, but even if not, that's 1-2 dart attacks at +4 to hit (advantage) for d4+4+10.... with the option to Action Surge for two more. In future levels, the Fighter will want to get Thrown Weapon Fighting Style soon (either by being a Champion, or with the Fighting Initiate Feat at 8, or by swapping Archery out for it), because drawing enough darts/nets is probably already somewhat awkward, and will become impossible to keep up with three attacks at level 11. It does take until non-Champion-Fighter 12 before all the parts are comfortably in place with 20 Dex, though they're in place at level 10 as a Champion.
Or, an Elf Fighter 6 could easily have Gunner, Sharpshooter, Archery fighting style, and 18 Dex at 6, just losing Piercer (which they don't ever really need). Same story, they'll want Thrown Weapon fighting style soon somehow, but could pull that together with 20 Dex at level 12.
These are good builds, and do good damage. They may not be AS GOOD as simplifying things by being a true archer, but it's not a lost cause by any measure.
If you want to get a little silly (and don't we all), grab some levels of Monk and take the Way of the Kensei. At level three, name darts as one of your kensei weapons. They now count as Monk weapons. If you make an unarmed strike and are holding a dart in your hand, you get +2 to your AC with Agile Parry (That's right. You just parried a Hill Giant's huge club with a little dart). You can spend a bonus action with Kensei's Shot to add a d4 to the damage. At level six, your darts are now considered Magical and you can spend a ki point to add your Martial Arts die to the damage once per round.
Unfortunately, Kensai don’t parry with ranged weapons. But otherwise, sure, some Monk can increase dart damage die at the expense of fewer feats and fewer Attack action attacks per round vs. a fighter. Usually not going to match a Fighter dart thrower’s DPR, but Monks have many other fun features that make the short range thrown play style fun.
The nets were brought up in the context of a dart build that is already taking Gunner and Sharpshooter. So really, all we're talking about is one more feat (Elven Accuracy, which itself provides +1 Dex) to fully exploit the advantage that Restrained will provide. But even without EA, the Net is already fully viable using the exact same feats that the Sharpshooter dart user is already using.
There is no down side to using a net with darts, other than to the extent that it stops you from wielding a Shield. -2 AC is the cost of the Net, not the feats.
Alright, so if you’re already taking the two most prerequisite feats, then nets become viable. And adding elven accuracy isn’t a bad step. Which subclass? I’m assuming Champion for the double fighting styles (Thrown & Archery) and the Crit fishing. In for a cp, in for 5gp as it were. (I hope someone gets that.) Or is it an Eldritch Knight for Weapon Bond? Or is this another hexblade dip situation?
You're right. I read "you can use it to defend yourself if it is a melee weapon" as "you can use it to defend yourself as if it is a melee weapon". Oops. Which means the build would work with a Throwing Axe build, but not a Dart build. Thank you for correcting me.
Alright, so if you’re already taking the two most prerequisite feats, then nets become viable. And adding elven accuracy isn’t a bad step. Which subclass? I’m assuming Champion for the double fighting styles (Thrown & Archery) and the Crit fishing. In for a cp, in for 5gp as it were. (I hope someone gets that.) Or is it an Eldritch Knight for Weapon Bond? Or is this another hexblade dip situation?
I suppose that all depends on whether a creature remains Restrained after you call a net back to hand that was used to Restrained it ...
But no, I'm so over Hexblades and EKs, I think that Thrown combat's urge to have two (or even more) fighting styles is finally the window for Champion to shine. It's been such a crappy subclass since Day 1, it's nice to see a niche where there's finally a little bit of reason to pick it that ISN'T just 3 levels for an improved crit range.
Third edition made it technically possible to fire a composite longbow against targets that were something like half a mile away. You just took a -16 range penalty, which meant that your chances of actually hitting were typically not worth the shot. I think there was a prestige class that could let you target anything so long as it was within your line of sight with no penalty for stupid shots at targets that were on the horizon provided your GM actually let you see them that far away.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
where does it say two weapon fighting style is melee only? thats person could combine crossbow expert and thrown in melee.
Two-Weapon Fighting is not melee only (throwing is okay), but it is melee WEAPON only (daggers okay, darts or crossbows are not). Does that make sense?
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
What doesn't make sense an expert knife thrower that can only throw with one hand or one that can throw with either or both hands?
If a DM would let you, the roped dart from wushu fighting would solve the returning/ammunition problem. You’re just flinging around your dart on a rope several times per round.
This is what I would build for a Dart thrower:
Elf (Shadar-Kai)
Ability Scores
Strength 8
Dexterity 17 (15+2 from racial modifier)
Constitution 16 (15+1 from racial modifier)
Intelligence 13
Wisdom 12
Charisma 8
18 Levels Fighter (Battle Master)
Fighting Style: Thrown Weapon Fighting
Maneuvers: Quick Throw, Precision Attack, whatever else tickles your fancy
2 Levels Artificer (Probably after Fighter 5 or 6)
Infusion: Returning Weapon, whatever you want (maybe Homunculous Servant)
ASIs in order: Gunner (Dexterity), Sharpshooter, Elven Accuracy (Intelligence), Fighting Initiate (Archery), Dexterity x2, Free Pick
You start things off with a Quick Toss Net and if it connects you go to town on them with Sharpshooter boosted Darts spamming additional maneuvers if you want to burst. I basically roleplay the Dart as Yondu's Arrow from Guardians of the Galaxy :D
I would say as the dice are small for Darts that Eleven Accuracy (and crit-fishing) isn’t really necessary or that beneficial. Also how come you are adding Gunner?
Elven Accuracy is to offset the Sharpshooter penalty not really for crit fishing although crits are always nice and you could throw in some maneuvers on a crit for more damage. Gunner is for no disadvantage when the enemy is within 5 ft. Basically what Crossbow Expert gives but with a extra DEX point. Gunner paired with Sharpshooter means you can throw the Net without disadvantage.
Is that really worth two feats? I mean I really like the Net, but two feats is a lot to try to make that have... questionable utility. Elven Accuracy is totally overkill for Sharpshooter, better to just raise Dex by a long shot!
Restrained is an unbelievably powerful condition, so yeah, I'd say that a couple of feats (which have plenty of other value) is a very small price to pay. The only real draw backs of a Net are (1) disadvantage on its attacks and (2) low DC to escape, but if you can take a feat to eliminate #1 that also provides +1 Dex and also lets you use ranged attacks in melee without disadvantage in general... that's win-win-win. #2 still sucks, but at least they have to use an entire action or one of their attacks to escape, so if you can carry around a few nets to cycle through, still very useful for you and the whole party!
Someone who's better at math than me, feel free to correct, but I think that having advantage on an attack vs a regular attack is often ~+25% accuracy. Having Elven advantage+ probably bumps that up to ~+37.5% accuracy? When you weight the +10 damage from sharpshooter against the -25% chance to hit, it's often only really adding ~5ish true DPR per use, because it's losing 2.5 of its own damage, as well as 25% of the damage of the base attack. Offsetting that with +% to hit returns amazing DPR dividends, which is the entire reason that Sharpshooter + Archer fighting style is higher DPR than Great Weapon Master + Great Weapon Fighting Style, even though it would look like GWFS should more directly increase DPR.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
This has nothing to do with a dart build, but I think the rogue makes an excellent net user with feat investment.
crossbow expert to be able to use your action to throw the net at close range without disadvantage. The net being a one handed weapon used with your attack action allows for a hand crossbow attack to be made as a bonus action. You have a great chance to deal your sneak damage as well as support your team.
you can couple this with the sentinel feat. You could pull out a finesse melee weapon, and if the restrained creature attacks your net to destroy it, you get a reaction attack and possibly another use of sneak attack that round.
Fistly 2 feats might seem like a lot but for Fighters its actually not that bad, since they get a couple more ASIs compared to most other classes. And secondly you can never have overkill when it comes to advantage :). Thirdly if I were to get something else over Elven Accuracy I would get Fighting Initiate for Archery before I get DEX.
You all are forgetting, the Net has disadvantage at normal range without crossbow expert, and at long range without sharpshooter. You would really need both of those to be effective. And then Elven Accuracy too…. That’s now three feats to make nets not suck. And now you’re talking about adding Fighting Initiate too, so four feats.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
The nets were brought up in the context of a dart build that is already taking Gunner and Sharpshooter. So really, all we're talking about is one more feat (Elven Accuracy, which itself provides +1 Dex) to fully exploit the advantage that Restrained will provide. But even without EA, the Net is already fully viable using the exact same feats that the Sharpshooter dart user is already using.
There is no down side to using a net with darts, other than to the extent that it stops you from wielding a Shield. -2 AC is the cost of the Net, not the feats.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
A VHuman Fighter 6 could easily have Gunner (+1 Dex and ranged in melee with no disadvantage), Sharpshooter, Piercer (+1 Dex and some DPR boosting), Archery Fighting Style, and 18 Dex... throwing out 1 Net and 1 Dart per turn, or 2 Darts if already Restrained. Your DM will probably need to make a ruling about whether Nets can be tossed Sharpshooter-style to deal 10+Dex damage, but even if not, that's 1-2 dart attacks at +4 to hit (advantage) for d4+4+10.... with the option to Action Surge for two more. In future levels, the Fighter will want to get Thrown Weapon Fighting Style soon (either by being a Champion, or with the Fighting Initiate Feat at 8, or by swapping Archery out for it), because drawing enough darts/nets is probably already somewhat awkward, and will become impossible to keep up with three attacks at level 11. It does take until non-Champion-Fighter 12 before all the parts are comfortably in place with 20 Dex, though they're in place at level 10 as a Champion.
Or, an Elf Fighter 6 could easily have Gunner, Sharpshooter, Archery fighting style, and 18 Dex at 6, just losing Piercer (which they don't ever really need). Same story, they'll want Thrown Weapon fighting style soon somehow, but could pull that together with 20 Dex at level 12.
These are good builds, and do good damage. They may not be AS GOOD as simplifying things by being a true archer, but it's not a lost cause by any measure.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
If you want to get a little silly (and don't we all), grab some levels of Monk and take the Way of the Kensei. At level three, name darts as one of your kensei weapons. They now count as Monk weapons. If you make an unarmed strike and are holding a dart in your hand, you get +2 to your AC with Agile Parry (That's right. You just parried a Hill Giant's huge club with a little dart). You can spend a bonus action with Kensei's Shot to add a d4 to the damage. At level six, your darts are now considered Magical and you can spend a ki point to add your Martial Arts die to the damage once per round.
Unfortunately, Kensai don’t parry with ranged weapons. But otherwise, sure, some Monk can increase dart damage die at the expense of fewer feats and fewer Attack action attacks per round vs. a fighter. Usually not going to match a Fighter dart thrower’s DPR, but Monks have many other fun features that make the short range thrown play style fun.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Alright, so if you’re already taking the two most prerequisite feats, then nets become viable. And adding elven accuracy isn’t a bad step. Which subclass? I’m assuming Champion for the double fighting styles (Thrown & Archery) and the Crit fishing. In for a cp, in for 5gp as it were. (I hope someone gets that.) Or is it an Eldritch Knight for Weapon Bond? Or is this another hexblade dip situation?
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
You're right. I read "you can use it to defend yourself if it is a melee weapon" as "you can use it to defend yourself as if it is a melee weapon". Oops. Which means the build would work with a Throwing Axe build, but not a Dart build. Thank you for correcting me.
I suppose that all depends on whether a creature remains Restrained after you call a net back to hand that was used to Restrained it ...
But no, I'm so over Hexblades and EKs, I think that Thrown combat's urge to have two (or even more) fighting styles is finally the window for Champion to shine. It's been such a crappy subclass since Day 1, it's nice to see a niche where there's finally a little bit of reason to pick it that ISN'T just 3 levels for an improved crit range.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.