problem 2, Take pact of the tome and a feat or two, problem mostly solved..
4th good, there should be less. Multi classing is a pox on the system.
Leaving aside your anecdotally evidenced opinions -
I have to take an invocation tax and waste one or two of my ASIs just to be competent at utility? Really? Warlock might be SAD, but that’s a heavy penalty when a good, flavourful option for good utility was already there in some of the 2014 invocations. All they needed was to be less niche - such as with what Wolfshay suggested - and warlock would have solid spell utility like every other caster.
Secondly, just because you don’t like multiclassing doesn’t mean your opinion is the be-all and end-all. You know what would fix a lot of your ‘problems’ with those terrible, horrible, no-good awful minmaxers who use the multiclassing system to create characters that fit their power fantasy? Int-based warlock, as has been suggested MANY times. Warlock’s short-rest recovery is very good with other charisma-based classes - infamously, paladin and sorcerer. Make warlock int-based and pallylock and sorlock are no longer a ‘problem’ - though they never were, really. Being vehemently against optimisation of any kind just undermines your opinions, because WotC has to cater to a wide variety to maintain its profit margins. Funnily enough, some people enjoy a combat simulator. Just like you presumably prefer the RP side - which is just as easily minmaxable.
Off the top of my head, using point buy, you could get persuasion to +12 by level 6, with a minimum flat d20 roll of 10. With a one-level warlock dip you’d still be OK at combat. By level nine that’s up to +14 with ASIs. You could easily get to a minimum of 32 at high levels. Or is a triple multiclass too much of a ‘pox’ for you? Minmaxing isn’t restricted to evil gremlins who love killing things. Nor is it only in combat power that characters can be outshone. Warlock’s lack of low-level slots mean under any kind of time pressure they are automatically inferior to other casters in utility, when the whole point (flavourwise) is that they cheated to becoming equivalent in power to a full caster. If it always takes them ten minutes to cast detect magic, without wasting a huge spell slot, or they can only do it quickly once per short rest, how does that look?
I feel like a looot of the Warlock's lack of low-level utility availability would be resolved by adopting spell points. They get a smaller pool, but it is refilled on short rest instead of long.
But then, I'm terribly biased towards the variant spell point system, so maybe not listen to me on this one :)
problem 2, Take pact of the tome and a feat or two, problem mostly solved..
4th good, there should be less. Multi classing is a pox on the system.
Leaving aside your anecdotally evidenced opinions -
I have to take an invocation tax and waste one or two of my ASIs just to be competent at utility? Really? Warlock might be SAD, but that’s a heavy penalty when a good, flavourful option for good utility was already there in some of the 2014 invocations. All they needed was to be less niche - such as with what Wolfshay suggested - and warlock would have solid spell utility like every other caster.
Secondly, just because you don’t like multiclassing doesn’t mean your opinion is the be-all and end-all. You know what would fix a lot of your ‘problems’ with those terrible, horrible, no-good awful minmaxers who use the multiclassing system to create characters that fit their power fantasy? Int-based warlock, as has been suggested MANY times. Warlock’s short-rest recovery is very good with other charisma-based classes - infamously, paladin and sorcerer. Make warlock int-based and pallylock and sorlock are no longer a ‘problem’ - though they never were, really. Being vehemently against optimisation of any kind just undermines your opinions, because WotC has to cater to a wide variety to maintain its profit margins. Funnily enough, some people enjoy a combat simulator. Just like you presumably prefer the RP side - which is just as easily minmaxable.
Off the top of my head, using point buy, you could get persuasion to +12 by level 6, with a minimum flat d20 roll of 10. With a one-level warlock dip you’d still be OK at combat. By level nine that’s up to +14 with ASIs. You could easily get to a minimum of 32 at high levels. Or is a triple multiclass too much of a ‘pox’ for you? Minmaxing isn’t restricted to evil gremlins who love killing things. Nor is it only in combat power that characters can be outshone. Warlock’s lack of low-level slots mean under any kind of time pressure they are automatically inferior to other casters in utility, when the whole point (flavourwise) is that they cheated to becoming equivalent in power to a full caster. If it always takes them ten minutes to cast detect magic, without wasting a huge spell slot, or they can only do it quickly once per short rest, how does that look?
you are competent at utility without using your ASIs, that was for dealing with the complaint that your spell slots are all the same level and it feels bad to use a 5th level slot on a shield or something. Ritual caster, and a couple invocations gets that covered. but using your invocations is using your class abilities its like saying what I have to use my expertise to be better at skills as a rogue. your invocations will let you choose a more focused or balanced approach on the various tiers of play. And spamming low level spells is not the only way you can contribute to utility for your party. I'm kind of baffled at that idea honestly as most low level spells especially warlock/arcane ones can easily be handled with skills so i am not sure why other casters waste their slots on handling most those issues with spells outside a huge rush on time. And I don't mean can't get a short rest rush I mean the boulder is about to crush us we need out of the trap on this action style time rushes. Which in those cases use your 5th level pact slot.
If you want a warlock good at utility focus some skills, spells and invocations on utility, if you want to focus on combat do the same for combat, social pick some social skills and a couple spells/invocations for that, want it all balance it out a bit. Your complaint is literally what makes warlocks awesome they have a base model that can get by in all tiers of play and a insane amount of customization to round that out as you want.
And multi classing in theory isn't a problem. 5es rules on multi classing are just so damn bad the game would be better off without it.
Problem 3, you not knowing how to play the class is not the same as having no options. they have far more options than any martial and somehow martials survive.
While I take your point, I'll just point out this tone seems unnecessarily antagonistic to me.
That was not the intent, its just pointing out that they seem to be ignoring they can have an invisible familiar for scouting, they have a high charisma and access to social skills,. potentially some level of rituals beyond the normal caster, useful spells at will, a cantrip that is like a fighters long bow in power but hat can add battlefield control effects, leveled spells for combat. Whether its social, exploration or combat the warlock has things to do. There isn't a single area they cant contribute a solid amount in. Not many classes can say that.
At the end of the day, the reality is that almost all single class warlocks seen in game can be classified into two types:
- Hexblade with armor of agathys and shadow of moil (plus eldritch invocations that buff his pact weapon).
- Warlock with Hex, some area spell like Sickening Radiance or Hunger of Hadar and Darkness (plus Eldrtich invocations that buff Eldritch Blast + Devil Sight).
And there's a good reason for that: Those combos are more powerful than anything else you can do with a warlock.
I am a little baffled by some of this conversation. The half caster worked for me I just acknowledged I was going to spend as many invocations as I could to get power spell bombs because my high level casts were limited but I had plenty of low level utility.
This I acknowledge I am going to need to use invocations for my multi use utility because I have plenty of "bombs" but I am also confused by the idea that the warlock doesnt use utility spells.
You have 2 slots and 6 spells known at level 5 (before counting patron spells) if you are only casting the same 2 spells what was the point of knowing 6 spells? At that point why ARENT you using them on ritual spells?
Honestly, when I pick or cast a Warlock spell. I completely ignore the level of the spell. It is just a question "which of these solves x problem best" and those are the spells I take to solve as many potential issues as possible and when that situation shows up I have the staples easy button and I push it.
I am a little baffled by some of this conversation. The half caster worked for me I just acknowledged I was going to spend as many invocations as I could to get power spell bombs because my high level casts were limited but I had plenty of low level utility.
This I acknowledge I am going to need to use invocations for my multi use utility because I have plenty of "bombs" but I am also confused by the idea that the warlock doesnt use utility spells.
You have 2 slots and 6 spells known at level 5 (before counting patron spells) if you are only casting the same 2 spells what was the point of knowing 6 spells? At that point why ARENT you using them on ritual spells?
Honestly, when I pick or cast a Warlock spell. I completely ignore the level of the spell. It is just a question "which of these solves x problem best" and those are the spells I take to solve as many potential issues as possible and when that situation shows up I have the staples easy button and I push it.
I basically agree, but I'm willing to believe its a issue for a decent number of people.
As for the 5/6? UA warlock I don't think they were mechanically terrible. They just no longer were a warlock. The tomelock just felt like a bad wizard., It did not feel like a warlock to me. not to the player who played it. If I want to play a bottomless pile of spells class i'll just play a wizard or sorcerer.
I feel like this whole thing could be solved with just having warlocks get a third spell slot at 6-7. Either have them cap out at 5 total or keep it at 4 at max if we are worried that 5 5th level slots break the game at 20th, which seems like a stretch all things considered. Give them a once a day refresh of some slots that they just got and done. You get reasonable casting. An ability to get some back quickly. And if people get a short rest they get a full reset. that way even if people are playing in these weird games that remove a core mechanic permanently, there is decent mileage
I like the idea of some of these changes but frankly they needed was something to reduce that awful gap between the second and third slot. bring that to where people actually play the game. Job done. Just make sure all invocations are worth taking and the subclasses are good.
I feel like this whole thing could be solved with just having warlocks get a third spell slot at 6-7. Either have them cap out at 5 total or keep it at 4 at max if we are worried that 5 5th level slots break the game at 20th, which seems like a stretch all things considered. Give them a once a day refresh of some slots that they just got and done. You get reasonable casting. An ability to get some back quickly. And if people get a short rest they get a full reset. that way even if people are playing in these weird games that remove a core mechanic permanently, there is decent mileage
I like the idea of some of these changes but frankly they needed was something to reduce that awful gap between the second and third slot. bring that to where people actually play the game. Job done. Just make sure all invocations are worth taking and the subclasses are good.
All of this. There were much simpler and more effective solutions to the "more spell slots, please" and "give us a viable alternative to short rests, please."
The lack of creativity for this version of the warlock is really depressing. I generally didn't even want changes to the 2014 version, but if we're going to change, do something really different and cool. This is just a very conservative, "change as little as possible" move.
And I've said this before, but listening to Matt Colville talk about the approach and intentionality behind the design of MCDM's WIP TTRPG just makes what we're seeing in the UAs look pathetic and pointless. WOTC is far too worried about survey results and doesn't seem to really care at all about actual design philosophy and goals.
I am a little baffled by some of this conversation. The half caster worked for me I just acknowledged I was going to spend as many invocations as I could to get power spell bombs because my high level casts were limited but I had plenty of low level utility.
This I acknowledge I am going to need to use invocations for my multi use utility because I have plenty of "bombs" but I am also confused by the idea that the warlock doesnt use utility spells.
You have 2 slots and 6 spells known at level 5 (before counting patron spells) if you are only casting the same 2 spells what was the point of knowing 6 spells? At that point why ARENT you using them on ritual spells?
Honestly, when I pick or cast a Warlock spell. I completely ignore the level of the spell. It is just a question "which of these solves x problem best" and those are the spells I take to solve as many potential issues as possible and when that situation shows up I have the staples easy button and I push it.
Yes. The only reason that Warlocks weren't taking ritual spells in 2014 was because, unless you went Pact of the Tome with Book of Ancient Secrets, you couldn't cast ritual spells ritually.
Now you can, so Warlocks are likely going to take a handful of problem solving spells to spend their spell slots on, and the rest being ritual spells you can cast without needing a spell slot. It's something that every arcane caster can do, but Warlocks are incentivized to do it because of their limited spell slots.
Beast Speech, Comprehend Languages, and Detect Magic are ritual spells that Warlocks (as of UA7) have access to from their spell list.
I am a little baffled by some of this conversation. The half caster worked for me I just acknowledged I was going to spend as many invocations as I could to get power spell bombs because my high level casts were limited but I had plenty of low level utility.
This I acknowledge I am going to need to use invocations for my multi use utility because I have plenty of "bombs" but I am also confused by the idea that the warlock doesnt use utility spells.
You have 2 slots and 6 spells known at level 5 (before counting patron spells) if you are only casting the same 2 spells what was the point of knowing 6 spells? At that point why ARENT you using them on ritual spells?
Honestly, when I pick or cast a Warlock spell. I completely ignore the level of the spell. It is just a question "which of these solves x problem best" and those are the spells I take to solve as many potential issues as possible and when that situation shows up I have the staples easy button and I push it.
Imagine that you are a hexblade, and you have already cast Armor of agathys. You have one spell slot left. In your repertoire of spells you have, I don't know, Spider Climb that could help you reach a chest that is in a high position. You could spend that spell slot of, I don't know, lvl 4. But you don't know when you'll be able to recover it, since the short rests are not automatic in your game. Do you spend your precious spell slot, which you could use in the next fight to cast Shadow of moil? Maybe yes, but the vast majority of people are not going to do it. That doesn't happen if you have several spell slots of different levels. You cast your utility spell when you need to, and still have spell slots for other things.
I am a little baffled by some of this conversation. The half caster worked for me I just acknowledged I was going to spend as many invocations as I could to get power spell bombs because my high level casts were limited but I had plenty of low level utility.
This I acknowledge I am going to need to use invocations for my multi use utility because I have plenty of "bombs" but I am also confused by the idea that the warlock doesnt use utility spells.
You have 2 slots and 6 spells known at level 5 (before counting patron spells) if you are only casting the same 2 spells what was the point of knowing 6 spells? At that point why ARENT you using them on ritual spells?
Honestly, when I pick or cast a Warlock spell. I completely ignore the level of the spell. It is just a question "which of these solves x problem best" and those are the spells I take to solve as many potential issues as possible and when that situation shows up I have the staples easy button and I push it.
Imagine that you are a hexblade, and you have already cast Armor of agathys. You have one spell slot left. In your repertoire of spells you have, I don't know, Spider Climb that could help you reach a chest that is in a high position. You could spend that spell slot of, I don't know, lvl 4. But you don't know when you'll be able to recover it, since the short rests are not automatic in your game. Do you spend your precious spell slot, which you could use in the next fight to cast Shadow of moil? Maybe yes, but the vast majority of people are not going to do it. That doesn't happen if you have several spell slots of different levels. You cast your utility spell when you need to, and still have spell slots for other things.
Or you solve that problem the way every martial does, use a skill check and some creativity to reach things. In that way warlock plays more like a martial while out of combat. They need to rely on creativity and skills rather than just picking which instant solution they want to use this time.
I am a little baffled by some of this conversation. The half caster worked for me I just acknowledged I was going to spend as many invocations as I could to get power spell bombs because my high level casts were limited but I had plenty of low level utility.
This I acknowledge I am going to need to use invocations for my multi use utility because I have plenty of "bombs" but I am also confused by the idea that the warlock doesnt use utility spells.
You have 2 slots and 6 spells known at level 5 (before counting patron spells) if you are only casting the same 2 spells what was the point of knowing 6 spells? At that point why ARENT you using them on ritual spells?
Honestly, when I pick or cast a Warlock spell. I completely ignore the level of the spell. It is just a question "which of these solves x problem best" and those are the spells I take to solve as many potential issues as possible and when that situation shows up I have the staples easy button and I push it.
Imagine that you are a hexblade, and you have already cast Armor of agathys. You have one spell slot left. In your repertoire of spells you have, I don't know, Spider Climb that could help you reach a chest that is in a high position. You could spend that spell slot of, I don't know, lvl 4. But you don't know when you'll be able to recover it, since the short rests are not automatic in your game. Do you spend your precious spell slot, which you could use in the next fight to cast Shadow of moil? Maybe yes, but the vast majority of people are not going to do it. That doesn't happen if you have several spell slots of different levels. You cast your utility spell when you need to, and still have spell slots for other things.
Or you solve that problem the way every martial does, use a skill check and some creativity to reach things. In that way warlock plays more like a martial while out of combat. They need to rely on creativity and skills rather than just picking which instant solution they want to use this time.
But that has nothing to do with what is being discussed here. What is being discussed here is whether the warlock lacks utility magic or not. If you can scale the wall by traditional means that's fine, but it's not what's in the discussion here.
They don't lack utility spells, they just need to be much more thoughtful about when they use them (unless it's one that they picked up through an invocation and have unlimited casts of). That's part of the design of them being the hybrid they are. They get some specific utility where they can use it more than anyone else, and other bits of utility where they need to be more selective and weigh that use with their desire to keep a slot for potential combat later.
Why does warlock need utility comparable to a Wizard? A ranger doesn't, a paladin doesn't. Not every class needs to be awesome at utility.
Ranger and paladin are half-casters, and have low-level spell slots. Plus, Ranger has excellent out of combat spells. Besides, Wizard is supposed to be the no. 1 for utility because of its ritual casting without having spells prepared ability; warlock actually having cost-effective utility at all is what I’m arguing for.
I am a little baffled by some of this conversation. The half caster worked for me I just acknowledged I was going to spend as many invocations as I could to get power spell bombs because my high level casts were limited but I had plenty of low level utility.
This I acknowledge I am going to need to use invocations for my multi use utility because I have plenty of "bombs" but I am also confused by the idea that the warlock doesnt use utility spells.
You have 2 slots and 6 spells known at level 5 (before counting patron spells) if you are only casting the same 2 spells what was the point of knowing 6 spells? At that point why ARENT you using them on ritual spells?
Honestly, when I pick or cast a Warlock spell. I completely ignore the level of the spell. It is just a question "which of these solves x problem best" and those are the spells I take to solve as many potential issues as possible and when that situation shows up I have the staples easy button and I push it.
Imagine that you are a hexblade, and you have already cast Armor of agathys. You have one spell slot left. In your repertoire of spells you have, I don't know, Spider Climb that could help you reach a chest that is in a high position. You could spend that spell slot of, I don't know, lvl 4. But you don't know when you'll be able to recover it, since the short rests are not automatic in your game. Do you spend your precious spell slot, which you could use in the next fight to cast Shadow of moil? Maybe yes, but the vast majority of people are not going to do it. That doesn't happen if you have several spell slots of different levels. You cast your utility spell when you need to, and still have spell slots for other things.
Or you solve that problem the way every martial does, use a skill check and some creativity to reach things. In that way warlock plays more like a martial while out of combat. They need to rely on creativity and skills rather than just picking which instant solution they want to use this time.
That’s entirely down to luck and DM fiat. Spider climb is a near-guarantee.
Right, like the other classes that aren't pure full casters need to solve problems. Or if you took Ascendent step as a utility invocation you could always just levitate yourself up since you have unlimited levitate castings.
Right, like the other classes that aren't pure full casters need to solve problems. Or if you took Ascendent step as a utility invocation you could always just levitate yourself up since you have unlimited levitate castings.
I’m not a hundred percent sure what you’re saying. Could you reword that?
Right, like the other classes that aren't pure full casters need to solve problems. Or if you took Ascendent step as a utility invocation you could always just levitate yourself up since you have unlimited levitate castings.
I’m not a hundred percent sure what you’re saying. Could you reword that?
My overall point is, looking at the warlock playstyle through the lens of a full caster like a wizard where everything is solved by slinging a spell is misguided. They were built to be a flexible hybrid chassis where you can focus in on some specific niches to tilt your playstyle in one direction or another. Maybe it is hexblade and your focus is on wading into melee to deal damage like a martial class so your invocations and spell choices/uses support that, maybe it is the archfey and your choices focus on being a mobile blaster, maybe it's the celestial and your choices focus on utility to support a group so you pick a lot of invocations that allow for unlimited uses of specific utility spells. Each choice results in very specific strengths, but also some weaknesses that make the warlock play more or less like specific types of characters. In the hexblade example, if your spell choices and invocation choices are tilting you toward playing like a martial character more than a spellcaster you should expect all of your interactions in the game to be impacted by that choice not just your in combat interactions.
Right, like the other classes that aren't pure full casters need to solve problems. Or if you took Ascendent step as a utility invocation you could always just levitate yourself up since you have unlimited levitate castings.
I’m not a hundred percent sure what you’re saying. Could you reword that?
My overall point is, looking at the warlock playstyle through the lens of a full caster like a wizard where everything is solved by slinging a spell is misguided. They were built to be a flexible hybrid chassis where you can focus in on some specific niches to tilt your playstyle in one direction or another. Maybe it is hexblade and your focus is on wading into melee to deal damage like a martial class so your invocations and spell choices/uses support that, maybe it is the archfey and your choices focus on being a mobile blaster, maybe it's the celestial and your choices focus on utility to support a group so you pick a lot of invocations that allow for unlimited uses of specific utility spells. Each choice results in very specific strengths, but also some weaknesses that make the warlock play more or less like specific types of characters. In the hexblade example, if your spell choices and invocation choices are tilting you toward playing like a martial character more than a spellcaster you should expect all of your interactions in the game to be impacted by that choice not just your in combat interactions.
OK, that all makes sense - but warlock doesn’t even have the option for the same level of utility as a wizard even if it specs in that direction, because of its distinct lack of lower-level spellcasting ability - at the very least in the current UA.
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I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
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Leaving aside your anecdotally evidenced opinions -
I have to take an invocation tax and waste one or two of my ASIs just to be competent at utility? Really? Warlock might be SAD, but that’s a heavy penalty when a good, flavourful option for good utility was already there in some of the 2014 invocations. All they needed was to be less niche - such as with what Wolfshay suggested - and warlock would have solid spell utility like every other caster.
Secondly, just because you don’t like multiclassing doesn’t mean your opinion is the be-all and end-all. You know what would fix a lot of your ‘problems’ with those terrible, horrible, no-good awful minmaxers who use the multiclassing system to create characters that fit their power fantasy? Int-based warlock, as has been suggested MANY times. Warlock’s short-rest recovery is very good with other charisma-based classes - infamously, paladin and sorcerer. Make warlock int-based and pallylock and sorlock are no longer a ‘problem’ - though they never were, really. Being vehemently against optimisation of any kind just undermines your opinions, because WotC has to cater to a wide variety to maintain its profit margins. Funnily enough, some people enjoy a combat simulator. Just like you presumably prefer the RP side - which is just as easily minmaxable.
Off the top of my head, using point buy, you could get persuasion to +12 by level 6, with a minimum flat d20 roll of 10. With a one-level warlock dip you’d still be OK at combat. By level nine that’s up to +14 with ASIs. You could easily get to a minimum of 32 at high levels. Or is a triple multiclass too much of a ‘pox’ for you? Minmaxing isn’t restricted to evil gremlins who love killing things. Nor is it only in combat power that characters can be outshone. Warlock’s lack of low-level slots mean under any kind of time pressure they are automatically inferior to other casters in utility, when the whole point (flavourwise) is that they cheated to becoming equivalent in power to a full caster. If it always takes them ten minutes to cast detect magic, without wasting a huge spell slot, or they can only do it quickly once per short rest, how does that look?
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
I feel like a looot of the Warlock's lack of low-level utility availability would be resolved by adopting spell points. They get a smaller pool, but it is refilled on short rest instead of long.
But then, I'm terribly biased towards the variant spell point system, so maybe not listen to me on this one :)
you are competent at utility without using your ASIs, that was for dealing with the complaint that your spell slots are all the same level and it feels bad to use a 5th level slot on a shield or something. Ritual caster, and a couple invocations gets that covered. but using your invocations is using your class abilities its like saying what I have to use my expertise to be better at skills as a rogue. your invocations will let you choose a more focused or balanced approach on the various tiers of play. And spamming low level spells is not the only way you can contribute to utility for your party. I'm kind of baffled at that idea honestly as most low level spells especially warlock/arcane ones can easily be handled with skills so i am not sure why other casters waste their slots on handling most those issues with spells outside a huge rush on time. And I don't mean can't get a short rest rush I mean the boulder is about to crush us we need out of the trap on this action style time rushes. Which in those cases use your 5th level pact slot.
If you want a warlock good at utility focus some skills, spells and invocations on utility, if you want to focus on combat do the same for combat, social pick some social skills and a couple spells/invocations for that, want it all balance it out a bit. Your complaint is literally what makes warlocks awesome they have a base model that can get by in all tiers of play and a insane amount of customization to round that out as you want.
And multi classing in theory isn't a problem. 5es rules on multi classing are just so damn bad the game would be better off without it.
At the end of the day, the reality is that almost all single class warlocks seen in game can be classified into two types:
- Hexblade with armor of agathys and shadow of moil (plus eldritch invocations that buff his pact weapon).
- Warlock with Hex, some area spell like Sickening Radiance or Hunger of Hadar and Darkness (plus Eldrtich invocations that buff Eldritch Blast + Devil Sight).
And there's a good reason for that: Those combos are more powerful than anything else you can do with a warlock.
I am a little baffled by some of this conversation. The half caster worked for me I just acknowledged I was going to spend as many invocations as I could to get power spell bombs because my high level casts were limited but I had plenty of low level utility.
This I acknowledge I am going to need to use invocations for my multi use utility because I have plenty of "bombs" but I am also confused by the idea that the warlock doesnt use utility spells.
You have 2 slots and 6 spells known at level 5 (before counting patron spells) if you are only casting the same 2 spells what was the point of knowing 6 spells? At that point why ARENT you using them on ritual spells?
Honestly, when I pick or cast a Warlock spell. I completely ignore the level of the spell. It is just a question "which of these solves x problem best" and those are the spells I take to solve as many potential issues as possible and when that situation shows up I have the staples easy button and I push it.
I basically agree, but I'm willing to believe its a issue for a decent number of people.
As for the 5/6? UA warlock I don't think they were mechanically terrible. They just no longer were a warlock. The tomelock just felt like a bad wizard., It did not feel like a warlock to me. not to the player who played it. If I want to play a bottomless pile of spells class i'll just play a wizard or sorcerer.
I feel like this whole thing could be solved with just having warlocks get a third spell slot at 6-7. Either have them cap out at 5 total or keep it at 4 at max if we are worried that 5 5th level slots break the game at 20th, which seems like a stretch all things considered. Give them a once a day refresh of some slots that they just got and done. You get reasonable casting. An ability to get some back quickly. And if people get a short rest they get a full reset. that way even if people are playing in these weird games that remove a core mechanic permanently, there is decent mileage
I like the idea of some of these changes but frankly they needed was something to reduce that awful gap between the second and third slot. bring that to where people actually play the game. Job done. Just make sure all invocations are worth taking and the subclasses are good.
All of this. There were much simpler and more effective solutions to the "more spell slots, please" and "give us a viable alternative to short rests, please."
The lack of creativity for this version of the warlock is really depressing. I generally didn't even want changes to the 2014 version, but if we're going to change, do something really different and cool. This is just a very conservative, "change as little as possible" move.
And I've said this before, but listening to Matt Colville talk about the approach and intentionality behind the design of MCDM's WIP TTRPG just makes what we're seeing in the UAs look pathetic and pointless. WOTC is far too worried about survey results and doesn't seem to really care at all about actual design philosophy and goals.
Yes. The only reason that Warlocks weren't taking ritual spells in 2014 was because, unless you went Pact of the Tome with Book of Ancient Secrets, you couldn't cast ritual spells ritually.
Now you can, so Warlocks are likely going to take a handful of problem solving spells to spend their spell slots on, and the rest being ritual spells you can cast without needing a spell slot. It's something that every arcane caster can do, but Warlocks are incentivized to do it because of their limited spell slots.
Beast Speech, Comprehend Languages, and Detect Magic are ritual spells that Warlocks (as of UA7) have access to from their spell list.
Imagine that you are a hexblade, and you have already cast Armor of agathys. You have one spell slot left. In your repertoire of spells you have, I don't know, Spider Climb that could help you reach a chest that is in a high position. You could spend that spell slot of, I don't know, lvl 4. But you don't know when you'll be able to recover it, since the short rests are not automatic in your game. Do you spend your precious spell slot, which you could use in the next fight to cast Shadow of moil? Maybe yes, but the vast majority of people are not going to do it.
That doesn't happen if you have several spell slots of different levels. You cast your utility spell when you need to, and still have spell slots for other things.
Or you solve that problem the way every martial does, use a skill check and some creativity to reach things. In that way warlock plays more like a martial while out of combat. They need to rely on creativity and skills rather than just picking which instant solution they want to use this time.
But that has nothing to do with what is being discussed here. What is being discussed here is whether the warlock lacks utility magic or not. If you can scale the wall by traditional means that's fine, but it's not what's in the discussion here.
They don't lack utility spells, they just need to be much more thoughtful about when they use them (unless it's one that they picked up through an invocation and have unlimited casts of). That's part of the design of them being the hybrid they are. They get some specific utility where they can use it more than anyone else, and other bits of utility where they need to be more selective and weigh that use with their desire to keep a slot for potential combat later.
Why does warlock need utility comparable to a Wizard? A ranger doesn't, a paladin doesn't. Not every class needs to be awesome at utility.
Ranger and paladin are half-casters, and have low-level spell slots. Plus, Ranger has excellent out of combat spells. Besides, Wizard is supposed to be the no. 1 for utility because of its ritual casting without having spells prepared ability; warlock actually having cost-effective utility at all is what I’m arguing for.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
That’s entirely down to luck and DM fiat. Spider climb is a near-guarantee.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
Right, like the other classes that aren't pure full casters need to solve problems. Or if you took Ascendent step as a utility invocation you could always just levitate yourself up since you have unlimited levitate castings.
I’m not a hundred percent sure what you’re saying. Could you reword that?
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
My overall point is, looking at the warlock playstyle through the lens of a full caster like a wizard where everything is solved by slinging a spell is misguided. They were built to be a flexible hybrid chassis where you can focus in on some specific niches to tilt your playstyle in one direction or another. Maybe it is hexblade and your focus is on wading into melee to deal damage like a martial class so your invocations and spell choices/uses support that, maybe it is the archfey and your choices focus on being a mobile blaster, maybe it's the celestial and your choices focus on utility to support a group so you pick a lot of invocations that allow for unlimited uses of specific utility spells. Each choice results in very specific strengths, but also some weaknesses that make the warlock play more or less like specific types of characters. In the hexblade example, if your spell choices and invocation choices are tilting you toward playing like a martial character more than a spellcaster you should expect all of your interactions in the game to be impacted by that choice not just your in combat interactions.
OK, that all makes sense - but warlock doesn’t even have the option for the same level of utility as a wizard even if it specs in that direction, because of its distinct lack of lower-level spellcasting ability - at the very least in the current UA.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.